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  1. #21
    Senior Member baabits's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefnz View Post
    Not entirely sure what you mean by "BS tricks" - Microsoft's move into TPM is actually a valid and very sensible one... I work in the IT industry and you'd be surprised how many users in a corporate environment click on things they shouldn't... I have dealt with situations where ransomeware got through a number of countermeasures and was actually stopped because of the TPM chip on the machine blocking the ransomware from writing to the boot sector... so the use case is certainly there.

    Now take that same scenario into a home user environment, no firewalls/no proxy/no IDS/no IPS etc... just standard Anti-virus/Internet Security...the chances of ransomeware infecting more machines is a lot higher...
    The vast, vast, vast majority of things that users click on aren't going to be MBR wiping or UEFI infecting stuff. MBR is also far more susceptible to this and won't be compatible with 11 which is fine- we've had the vast majority of CPUs supporting UEFI since Sandy Bridge. Often these attack vectors need to be targeted to specific hardware exploits as opposed to something general that can affect the entire operating system. Standard antivirus and internet security with ransomware protection has done more to stop the majority of attacks than putting a TPM in every computer ever would. Does that mean that having a TPM is bad? No certainly not, especially in corporate environments, but it also doesn't mean that good hardware should go to waste and that people should have to replace things that still work.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefnz View Post
    TPM makes the OS more resiliant to "unathorised changes" from malicious sources so that's not a bad thing...


    People have jumped to silly conclusions in regard to Windows 11 without actually truly understanding what is actually behind the step change... this was not helped by Microsoft's poor messaging as usual.
    I don't think many people's conclusions are silly or unwarranted at all. They actually seem quite fair and reasonable. I bought this PC, it came with Windows 10 and yet you're still telling me I can't upgrade to Windows 11? It's a fair question and MS's balls deserve to be held to the fire for it.


    Quote Originally Posted by chiefnz View Post
    As for the argument of just wanting to run things on a lower spec machine because "that's all you need" that's fine too... but at some point that hardware just like the OS it runs is going to go end-of-life.
    Sure, the OS will go to end of life in many cases before the hardware does but it'll be chucked anyway because people who don't understand this stuff are being told their PC isn't good enough to run Windows 11 when it is, and continuing to run Windows 10 is dangerous because it's 4 years later and there's no more support. You can literally buy PC's today that won't be compatible with Windows 11.

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefnz View Post
    3rd time I'm going to say this... by the time Windows 11 goes mainstream... the so called "unsupported" hardware is going to be a moot point... the only real group of people who are truly going to be "affected" by the requirements of Windows 11 (TPM in particular) are custom PC builders/tinkerer's/overclockers etc. but if TPM in particular is going mainstream the motherboard manufacturers are going to start including TPM modules as part of the package. So unless you buy new CUSTOM stuff as soon as it comes out things will be the same but slightly more secure...

    Of course the other option is to move to Linux... so there are options if you are really against Microsoft's path forward.
    You can keep saying the same thing over and over again but it doesn't make your opinion any more correct.. It's only going to be a moot point because people don't know any better. That doesn't make it right, there are home users that keep the same PC's for ten years plus and they continue to chug along. It's not just going to be custom PC builders/tinkerers/overclockers, that's a stupid statement. Anyone who has bought a PC with Haswell plus has a good chance that it'll still be chugging along at Windows 10's planned end of support date, and just run Linux or run it unsupported is not a reasonable solution

  2. #22
    Soaring like an Eagle gary67's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    I have a dual core duo desktop that was running Win10 quite happily until a couple of months ago when I decided to change it to Linux full time. So the reasoning that hardware will be obsolete is crazy MS are starting to sound more like Crapple

  3. #23
    Computer Technician wainuitech's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    You can literally buy PC's today that won't be compatible with Windows 11.
    Exactly right, was at a persons place on Thursday, we were talking about W11, their New Computer according to two different checkers says it wont run W11, and its ONLY about 6 months old. The PC was built by a well known Shop, I looked in the BIOS settings and couldn't find the required setting to enable ANYWHERE.

    Was also reading an article last night and came across a link, it was interesting, it explained ( and showed) how TPM chips can be bypassed even at boot level, as well as bypassing any system encryption Then further on was this

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Bypass.png 
Views:	29 
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ID:	11011

    For obvious security reasons I'm not posting any links so dont ask.

    Wont matter how much security anyone puts in there WILL always be some smart cookie who will figure out a way to bypass it. These REAL "hackers" are not stupid people they will find a way.
    Last edited by wainuitech; 17-07-2021 at 10:08 AM.

  4. #24
    Member mzee's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    I have W11 running perfectly in Qemu/KVM hosted by Mint 19.3. When I tried to install it direct to the SSD it refused on the grounds that my PC does not meet the specs required!
    The laptop is a Dell Inspiron 17" 5000 series, with an Intel 7th generation CPU, 8 GB Ram, M2 SSD with 140 GB free space.
    This is ridiculous, the laptop is only 2 years old!

  5. #25
    Enterprise IT Consultant chiefnz's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    Quote Originally Posted by mzee View Post
    I have W11 running perfectly in Qemu/KVM hosted by Mint 19.3. When I tried to install it direct to the SSD it refused on the grounds that my PC does not meet the specs required!
    The laptop is a Dell Inspiron 17" 5000 series, with an Intel 7th generation CPU, 8 GB Ram, M2 SSD with 140 GB free space.
    This is ridiculous, the laptop is only 2 years old!
    The laptop might be 2 years old but that CPU is 4-5 years old depending on which 7th Gen it is. The first 7th gens were released in Sept 2016 and the rest in early 2017... 9th Gen was released 2019 along with 8th Gen Coffee Lake U (4C/8T) and Coffee Lake H (6C/12T).

    I wouldn't go so far as to say it's ridiculous...the hardware is more like 4-5 years old...though I can understand your frustration if you only bought it 2 years ago...

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  6. #26
    Senior Member paulw's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefnz View Post
    The laptop might be 2 years old but that CPU is 4-5 years old depending on which 7th Gen it is. The first 7th gens were released in Sept 2016 and the rest in early 2017... 9th Gen was released 2019 along with 8th Gen Coffee Lake U (4C/8T) and Coffee Lake H (6C/12T).

    I wouldn't go so far as to say it's ridiculous...the hardware is more like 4-5 years old...though I can understand your frustration if you only bought it 2 years ago...
    For a home user a 4 to 5 year old PC is not old. Do you change your car, phone and computers every 2 to 3 years??
    Regards,

    Paul W
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  7. #27
    amateur expert dugimodo's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    I will wait until windows 11 is actually available to see if all this actually turns out to be the issue it seems to be. I tend to upgrade my hardware and OS fairly regularly, went from 7 to 8 early while there was a cheap introductory offer, then straight to 10 because it was free. I'd be the kind of person who would jump on windows 11 if the price wasn't too high.
    I like to stay ahead of hardware / software requirements rather than have to upgrade to run something after the fact. So if MS block me because my Ryzen 2700X based system doesn't meet requirements it'll be the first time in a while I stick with the older OS.

    I think though this won't really bother me at all and a lot of other people will be the same. My PC is 3 years old and by the time windows 10 hits end of life it'll be around 7 years old. I can almost guarantee I'll have upgraded somewhere in those 4 years anyway and either won't still have it or it'll be repurposed for something other than gaming.
    I do have a TPM header but who knows if the modules are available and if I will even care when 11 releases.

    It's hard for me to worry about software when I can't get the hardware I want anyway. I have a GTX 1070 that I was intending to upgrade before all this gpu pricing insanity hit and now I'm sticking with it until it fails to play something. My PC has ended up a bit unbalanced because I built it intending to upgrade the gpu later.
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  8. #28
    Member mzee's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefnz View Post
    The laptop might be 2 years old but that CPU is 4-5 years old depending on which 7th Gen it is. The first 7th gens were released in Sept 2016 and the rest in early 2017... 9th Gen was released 2019 along with 8th Gen Coffee Lake U (4C/8T) and Coffee Lake H (6C/12T).

    I wouldn't go so far as to say it's ridiculous...the hardware is more like 4-5 years old...though I can understand your frustration if you only bought it 2 years ago...
    My point is that W11 runs well on a VM hosted by a computer which is deemed unsuitable, yet will not even attempt to install directly to the computer. There is a blocking mechanism in the loader.

  9. #29
    Enterprise IT Consultant chiefnz's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    Quote Originally Posted by paulw View Post
    For a home user a 4 to 5 year old PC is not old. Do you change your car, phone and computers every 2 to 3 years??
    Actually I do for computers/phones... 5 years is the longest I'll wait between "upgrades"... so I'll research what's available, what's due for release, price and whether or not my current one does what I need it to do in the time I need it done in.

    I don't understand the logic people are using... you want to use "older hardware" as in not latest gen or or even latest gen-1/2/3... BUT you want to run the latest OS???

    Everyone is complaining "I can't run the latest OS on my OLD hardware"... granted that "old is relative term". So instead of griping about "Windows 11 won't run on my computer" Why not just wait until you have to buy a new computer that will run windows 11....Don't upgrade until 2025.

    Everyone seems to be complaining about something that is only a problem now... just wait 4 years... and if by then you still haven't bought a new computer which is Windows 11 compatible, then this not "MS just making an OS that is not compatible with old hardware".... but maybe the user deciding to use older hardware.

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  10. #30
    Computer Technician wainuitech's Avatar
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    Default Re: I tried out Windows 11

    Quote Originally Posted by chiefnz View Post
    Everyone seems to be complaining about something that is only a problem now... just wait 4 years... and if by then you still haven't bought a new computer which is Windows 11 compatible, then this not "MS just making an OS that is not compatible with old hardware".... but maybe the user deciding to use older hardware.
    Just Curious -- being an Enterprise IT Consultant --- What are you going to tell your clients Who may have perfectly good Hardware and run either W7 or W10 Now, -- What do you think they will say to you if you tell them they have to spend several thousands of $$$ to upgrade their systems (this is beyond 2025 as well) especially if it were a company that had Hundreds of Computers. ?

    Don't think you'd have to be smart to figure out what their response will be
    Last edited by wainuitech; 18-07-2021 at 01:34 PM.

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