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  1. #11
    amateur expert dugimodo's Avatar
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    I really don't get all the hate for EV's, how many of you have actually driven one? And it's not like anyone is forcing you to own one if you don't want to. The truth is that although they have issues that need solving they are otherwise just better than petrol cars, environmental arguments aside.
    An EV in a traffic jam uses no power other than things like the heater & radio, even the humble leaf from 2013 onwards with it's pitiful 24kwh battery has an electric heatpump it can run for more than a day easily. 100km range is not great, but a 24kwh battery is bigger than a tesla powerwall and could run your house for quite a few hours - I rarely use more than 10kwh in a day at home so a fully charged leaf is 2 days plus equivalent for my house.

    They have more torque, less moving parts, are quiet, emit no fumes, and already can be made with 500km plus range easily with existing technology. Over time they will just get better. The power infrastructure will grow as needed, and all this whining will make no difference when they are all you can buy and turn out to do the job just fine.
    We aren't there yet but combustion engines and service stations have had a century or more headstart and EVs are catching up fast. The only real problem is they just cost about 3 times more than they need to.

    Yeah batteries are an issue, both in production and disposal but if you think that makes them worse than fossil fuels it's just not true. On top of which there is a technology race on to make better more energy dense and cleaner batteries going on and given the potential earnings for whoever comes up with the best solution you can bet batteries will get better.

    So yeah waiting for a charge is inconvenient and won't work for everyone, lucky petrol cars aren't going anywhere in the next decade or more. If you want a petrol car, own one. Why get all bent out of shape because some people prefer electric and that's the way the industry is trending.
    I owned a second hand leaf with 77% battery capacity for a year, not because I wanted to save the planet but because I like gadgets and for me it's the ultimate one. It was cheaper and more convenient than a petrol car for my daily use but yes in the end I sold it because I only want one car and it couldn't do my occasional longer trips.
    As soon as an EV with 250km+ range is available at a price I can afford I'm going electric permanently.
    Last edited by dugimodo; 18-06-2021 at 10:20 PM.
    Ryzen 2700X, 16Gb DDR4RAM, 512GB M.2 NVME SSD, MSI GTX1070

  2. #12
    Senior Member baabits's Avatar
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    Quote Originally Posted by dugimodo View Post
    I really don't get all the hate for EV's, how many of you have actually driven one? And it's not like anyone is forcing you to own one if you don't want to. The truth is that although they have issues that need solving they are otherwise just better than petrol cars, environmental arguments aside.
    An EV in a traffic jam uses no power other than things like the heater & radio, even the humble leaf from 2013 onwards with it's pitiful 24kwh battery has an electric heatpump it can run for more than a day easily. 100km range is not great, but a 24kwh battery is bigger than a tesla powerwall and could run your house for quite a few hours - I rarely use more than 10kwh in a day at home so a fully charged leaf is 2 days plus equivalent for my house.

    They have more torque, less moving parts, are quiet, emit no fumes, and already can be made with 500km plus range easily with existing technology. Over time they will just get better. The power infrastructure will grow as needed, and all this whining will make no difference when they are all you can buy and turn out to do the job just fine.
    We aren't there yet but combustion engines and service stations have had a century or more headstart and EVs are catching up fast. The only real problem is they just cost about 3 times more than they need to.

    Yeah batteries are an issue, both in production and disposal but if you think that makes them worse than fossil fuels it's just not true. On top of which there is a technology race on to make better more energy dense and cleaner batteries going on and given the potential earnings for whoever comes up with the best solution you can bet batteries will get better.

    So yeah waiting for a charge is inconvenient and won't work for everyone, lucky petrol cars aren't going anywhere in the next decade or more. If you want a petrol car, own one. Why get all bent out of shape because some people prefer electric and that's the way the industry is trending.
    I owned a second hand leaf with 77% battery capacity for a year, not because I wanted to save the planet but because I like gadgets and for me it's the ultimate one. It was cheaper and more convenient than a petrol car for my daily use but yes in the end I sold it because I only want one car and it couldn't do my occasional longer trips.
    As soon as an EV with 250km+ range is available at a price I can afford I'm going electric permanently.
    This.

    People just naturally resistant to change maybe? Or maybe have too much time on their hands.

    It didn't take long from owning a tesla to realising it was the future and I can't go back. Looking forward to seeing Nissan release the ariya here eventually, that looks like one spunky little EV. Honda-E as well

  3. #13
    Old guy
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    There is nothing wrong with EVs in themselves if you want one get one. The better ones are very nice vehicles indeed. But there is no way you should consider them a "Green" choice. They use more oil based products to produce than a conventional petrol/oil powered one does.
    The electricity to charge them is often generated using coal or natural gas. We do not produce enough electricity in NZ to charge vast numbers of them anyway.
    Blind Freddy could see that the governments main scheme is to force poor people out of private use vehicles in the not to distant future by making it far to expensive for anyone not on an above average income to afford to own or drive one.

  4. #14
    tweakedgeek tweak'e's Avatar
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    Quote Originally Posted by dugimodo View Post
    I really don't get all the hate for EV's, how many of you have actually driven one? And it's not like anyone is forcing you to own one if you don't want to. The truth is that although they have issues that need solving they are otherwise just better than petrol cars, environmental arguments aside.
    An EV in a traffic jam uses no power other than things like the heater & radio, even the humble leaf from 2013 onwards with it's pitiful 24kwh battery has an electric heatpump it can run for more than a day easily. 100km range is not great, but a 24kwh battery is bigger than a tesla powerwall and could run your house for quite a few hours - I rarely use more than 10kwh in a day at home so a fully charged leaf is 2 days plus equivalent for my house.

    They have more torque, less moving parts, are quiet, emit no fumes, and already can be made with 500km plus range easily with existing technology. Over time they will just get better. The power infrastructure will grow as needed, and all this whining will make no difference when they are all you can buy and turn out to do the job just fine.
    We aren't there yet but combustion engines and service stations have had a century or more headstart and EVs are catching up fast. The only real problem is they just cost about 3 times more than they need to.

    Yeah batteries are an issue, both in production and disposal but if you think that makes them worse than fossil fuels it's just not true. On top of which there is a technology race on to make better more energy dense and cleaner batteries going on and given the potential earnings for whoever comes up with the best solution you can bet batteries will get better.

    So yeah waiting for a charge is inconvenient and won't work for everyone, lucky petrol cars aren't going anywhere in the next decade or more. If you want a petrol car, own one. Why get all bent out of shape because some people prefer electric and that's the way the industry is trending.
    I owned a second hand leaf with 77% battery capacity for a year, not because I wanted to save the planet but because I like gadgets and for me it's the ultimate one. It was cheaper and more convenient than a petrol car for my daily use but yes in the end I sold it because I only want one car and it couldn't do my occasional longer trips.
    As soon as an EV with 250km+ range is available at a price I can afford I'm going electric permanently.
    a lot of the hate comes down to the the BS ev pro guys are pushing.
    the pro ev guys just keep pushing tech which doesn't exist and highly likely will not exist.
    that kind of nonsense just generates hate.

    ev's work fine for niche roles. there is charging issues, recycling issues etc but most of that can be dealt with as time goes by.
    but the idea that everyone will be driving ev's tomorrow is just nonsense.
    Tweak it till it breaks

  5. #15
    Senior Member baabits's Avatar
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveM View Post
    There is nothing wrong with EVs in themselves if you want one get one. The better ones are very nice vehicles indeed. But there is no way you should consider them a "Green" choice. They use more oil based products to produce than a conventional petrol/oil powered one does.
    Even by using more oil based products in production, across their entire lifespan they still turn out greener than gas vehicles. Even compared to lighter gas vehicles, by the end of their lives the luxury end of EVs tend to only produce about half of the emissions and come with a lower total cost of ownership, and this is including emissions from manufacturing. The WSJ did a good comparison between a model 3 and a RAV 4 which showed even better results: https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-ele...e-environment/

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveM View Post
    The electricity to charge them is often generated using coal or natural gas. We do not produce enough electricity in NZ to charge vast numbers of them anyway.
    80% of NZ's supply of electricity is renewable energy... There are plans in place to get this to 90% by 2025 (and have been in place since Helen Clark was prime minister) and we work to expand out capacity all the time. Of course there are always slip ups, no system is perfect. It could be further helped with more benefits for generating electricity yourself- I had a 15kw solar array on the roof and a couple of powerwalls coupled with my Model S and just used the slow charger and kept it plugged in every night. 0 issues and my power bills were $10-20 a month in the winter and usually got paid for contributing to the grid in the summer.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveM View Post
    Blind Freddy could see that the governments main scheme is to force poor people out of private use vehicles in the not to distant future by making it far to expensive for anyone not on an above average income to afford to own or drive one.
    If they can implement more and encourage people to use public transport then this is a good thing. Less maintenance needed on roads, often cheaper than owning a car and faster as well. As for the expense, that's just a matter of time. Prices will eventually fall when more efficient methods of manufacturing are worked out and the technology improves as they tend to do so it's not some conspiracy by the government. They're just trying to get ahead of the game.
    Last edited by baabits; 19-06-2021 at 01:38 PM.

  6. #16
    Senior Member piroska's Avatar
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    Quote Originally Posted by dugimodo View Post
    I really don't get all the hate for EV's, how many of you have actually driven one? And it's not like anyone is forcing you to own one if you don't want to. .
    Yet.

    It's what the govt is aiming for. I"ll be dead by then, but if I was younger I'd be pissed off.
    I don't object to new types of cars...but this? No, maybe if the solid state batteries work out, but I hate things with batteries, whatever they are.

    Yes I have a phone, but it's the ONLY thing I use with a battery..no laptop, no tablet, I read off paper. Or my PC screen.
    Ex-pctek

  7. #17
    tweakedgeek tweak'e's Avatar
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    Quote Originally Posted by baabits View Post
    If they can implement more and encourage people to use public transport then this is a good thing. Less maintenance needed on roads, often cheaper than owning a car and faster as well. As for the expense, that's just a matter of time. Prices will eventually fall when more efficient methods of manufacturing are worked out and the technology improves as they tend to do so it's not some conspiracy by the government. They're just trying to get ahead of the game.
    the catch of course is NZ cities have generally never been designed with public transport in mind.
    so public transport here is poor service and expensive.

    public transport works well when you shift a lot of people a short distance. not a small amount of people a long distance.
    Tweak it till it breaks

  8. #18
    Old guy
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    Quote Originally Posted by baabits View Post
    Even by using more oil based products in production, across their entire lifespan they still turn out greener than gas vehicles. Even compared to lighter gas vehicles, by the end of their lives the luxury end of EVs tend to only produce about half of the emissions and come with a lower total cost of ownership, and this is including emissions from manufacturing. The WSJ did a good comparison between a model 3 and a RAV 4 which showed even better results: https://www.wsj.com/graphics/are-ele...e-environment/



    80% of NZ's supply of electricity is renewable energy... There are plans in place to get this to 90% by 2025 (and have been in place since Helen Clark was prime minister) and we work to expand out capacity all the time. Of course there are always slip ups, no system is perfect. It could be further helped with more benefits for generating electricity yourself- I had a 15kw solar array on the roof and a couple of powerwalls coupled with my Model S and just used the slow charger and kept it plugged in every night. 0 issues and my power bills were $10-20 a month in the winter and usually got paid for contributing to the grid in the summer.



    If they can implement more and encourage people to use public transport then this is a good thing. Less maintenance needed on roads, often cheaper than owning a car and faster as well. As for the expense, that's just a matter of time. Prices will eventually fall when more efficient methods of manufacturing are worked out and the technology improves as they tend to do so it's not some conspiracy by the government. They're just trying to get ahead of the game.
    If you actually believe all that you are perfectly entitled to do so.
    A couple of points, it would appear that you have enough financial support that you do not have to care about costs of day to day life unlike the average wage earner. It is just not practical for the larger part of the population to use public transport to get to and from their place of employment and that is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. It is dreaming to believe that the many tradesmen are just going to magically get to the job complete with the tools required to do it on public transport. The same problem exists for the many delivery businesses which keep the supermarkets stocked or the couriers that deliver to our homes. There are no suitable EVs to carry out some of those functions. While we do have some efficient hydro electrical generation and a very small amount of wind and solar generation I am sure you are aware that we are currently burning ship loads of Indonesian coal at Huntly just to enable us to keep up with current demands. That will not become any easier if we have to charge a few hundred thousand EVs every day.
    I do not know you but you sound a lot like some of our politicians that travel in chauffer driven vehicles and fly up and down the country at tax payer expense while telling everyone else to walk, ride a bike or use public transport.

  9. #19
    Senior Member baabits's Avatar
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveM View Post
    If you actually believe all that you are perfectly entitled to do so.
    A couple of points, it would appear that you have enough financial support that you do not have to care about costs of day to day life unlike the average wage earner. It is just not practical for the larger part of the population to use public transport to get to and from their place of employment and that is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. It is dreaming to believe that the many tradesmen are just going to magically get to the job complete with the tools required to do it on public transport. The same problem exists for the many delivery businesses which keep the supermarkets stocked or the couriers that deliver to our homes. There are no suitable EVs to carry out some of those functions. While we do have some efficient hydro electrical generation and a very small amount of wind and solar generation I am sure you are aware that we are currently burning ship loads of Indonesian coal at Huntly just to enable us to keep up with current demands. That will not become any easier if we have to charge a few hundred thousand EVs every day.
    I do not know you but you sound a lot like some of our politicians that travel in chauffer driven vehicles and fly up and down the country at tax payer expense while telling everyone else to walk, ride a bike or use public transport.
    I do not know you either but you just sound like you're a misery guts who is stuck in the past and have a chip on your shoulder. I don't need the arrogant lecture on how life works, do you think I assume that vegetables just fly on to store shelves?

    The entire point of mentioning public transport was that it can improve in large cities. I hope the govt will work towards doing so where it is appropriate.

    People don't normally tend to stay in one income group all of their lives, and as more people adopt EVs, more will move on to the second hand market where they are more affordable. This is a future oriented approach, and as technology improves and more models come out as they are already starting to overseas, the forward thinking approach means that we will be ready to adopt at the time.

    I don't agree with taxing petrol utes but I do agree with incentives for EVs. There will always be necessity for some petrol driven vehicles but that doesn't mean that we can't start to transition where it's possible? Time and technology improvements take care of almost everything you mentioned. Ford just released a 300mi range F150 in the US, which will get better and better at its job and faster at charging as they improve it. We'll find better ways to harness renewables as time goes on and turn off more and more coal plants, or keep them in standby. It's not just a static approach of everyone must now transition, it'll happen over time, gradually, with more uptake as we progress.

    What the govt has laid out at the moment is a good start, and if you don't want to transition then don't; that's no reason to skew the facts like you did (they are the more green choice, we generate more far more electricity through renewables than coal or natural gas so they're not "often" charged using them, and the aim isn't to force private car users from the road, it's to get more energy efficient vehicles on the road). A similar approach happened with hybrids and every year they make up more and more of vehicle sales even though they started expensive, and the prices are coming down further and further.

  10. #20
    VoidMaster
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    Default Re: SNOW, TRAFFIC JAMS AND ELECTRIC CARS:

    As I understand it, the intention is to have all Internal Combustion Engine Vehicles off the roads by 2035.

    I don't see how 70 to 80 year olds could be expected to go down to the supermarket on a bus and bring all the groceries back home on the bus again., that's ok when you are younger put pushing it as soon as the body starts to play up.

    Luckily I live next to a Supermarket so as long as I can walk I should be ok.
    It's not the least charm of a theory that it is refutable. The hundred-times-refuted theory of "free will" owes its persistence to this charm alone; some one is always appearing who feels himself strong enough to refute it - Friedrich Nietzsche

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