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  1. #1
    Smiling Down On Youse SurferJoe46's Avatar
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    Default The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    "Spooky" stuff, said Albert Einstein..... but there's been a lot of noise about it lately here in Rightside Upland.


    https://youtu.be/ZuvK-od647c


    May your screen door of life not swing in the winds of bad choices


    I have no idea what that means - I just think it sounds erudite, that's all.


  2. #2
    Awaiting Enlightenment R2x1's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    Never seen it, all our quantums are neatly arranged in concentric left-hand rhomboids to avoid spins.
    Entropy is not what
    it used to be.



  3. #3
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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    Interesting video, but this stuff isn't new. It was 1935 when Einstein pointed out what he regarded as an obviously absurd consequence of quantum mechanics, with its "spooky action at a distance". In the 1980s it became possible to construct experiments specifically designed to test the predictions of quantum mechanics, using Bell's Theorem mentioned in the video. These experiments have been performed many times and the answer is always the same, quantum mechanics, spookiness and all, gives the right predictions. The argument goes on, but for now it looks like we have to live with reality as it is, not as we think it should be. Donald Trump, please note.

  4. #4
    Senior Member piroska's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    Heisenberg and Schrödinger get pulled over for speeding.
    The cop asks Heisenberg "Do you know how fast you were going?"
    Heisenberg replies, "No, but we know exactly where we are!"

    The officer looks at him confused and says "you were going 108 miles per hour!"
    Heisenberg throws his arms up and cries, "Great! Now we're lost!"


    The officer looks over the car and asks Schrödinger if the two men have anything in the trunk. "A cat," Schrödinger replies.
    The cop opens the trunk and yells "Hey! This cat is dead."

    Schrödinger angrily replies, "Well he is now."
    Ex-pctek

  5. #5
    ember BBCmicro's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    The modern version of Einstein's question is If you toss a 100% fair coin in a 100% random manner and it falls on the floor, does it have real value (H or T) before anyone looks at it?

    The answer is No. 'Real' means contributing to the logic of our world and the unobserved coin makes no such contribution. For instance, the coin can't decide which of us is doing the cooking tonight. To have a real effect we need to know how the randomness turned out, and that means observing how the coin fell.

    Interestingly (at least to me) the earliest example of this effect comes from the first book of the Bible. The question is Did Adam and Eve start off with genitals? We might think the answer is obviously Yes because they had genitals later on. But the answer is actually No. The Bible says that Adam and Eve themselves did not know they had genitals, and since there was no other possible observer, then they didn't. Their genitals came into existence later on when Adam and Eve 'saw they were naked'. As before, coming into existence (becoming real) is defined as contributing to the logic of their world.

    Many people would say that 'in reality' they had genitals at the start but didn't know it. This is saying that things which no-one has seen, and not even imagined as having possible existence, nevertheless exist right now. Unfortunately, if you subscribe to that idea you need to to also apply it to a deity. There is no evidence for a deity (it is unobserved) but if you give up the requirement for observation you should serious entertain that such a being exists 'in itself'.

    It's because of this deity problem that some scientific people say that something is real if it contributes to the logic of our world, not if it exists in itself.

    [In the above I have used the word 'our' to pick out our world. Many physicists make the doubtful assumption that there is some other way to define our world without using 'our'. That allows them to take a Many Worlds view of reality and in that case both H and T are equally real but in different worlds. But in 'our' (observed) world, only one of the options is real.]

    Nice Heisenberg dialogue Piroska Hadn't seen that before
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  6. #6
    amateur expert dugimodo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    Things don't exist isolated from the rest of reality, whether you observe it directly or not there is always some consequence. If I'm not looking at the moon the tides still happen so I can conclude it's probably still there.
    Similarly a dead cat in a box will eventually start to effect the world around it and become obvious regardless of whether we directly observe it. In some form everything effects the universe around it, just because many of these occurrences aren't directly observed by us in no way removes the effects.
    The effect of a coin landing face up or face down has imperceptible difference in the way it effects the surroundings, while it may not effect a decision until observed it nevertheless effects the wider environment in some small way.

    At a quantum level of course this is all very different, and something I can't truly wrap my head around. The Idea that electrons act differently when observed is truly mind blowing.

    By the way I've willfully given up trying to remember the difference between affect and effect, probably used it wrong and just don't care. If nobody noticed is the mistake even real ?
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    ember BBCmicro's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    It's not a matter of seeing the moon then shutting your eyes to make it go out of existence, it's a matter of everyone not believing such a thing exists. Does the moon exist in that case? No - the question is nonsense to them.

    We might take a God's-eye view and say that the moon does actually exist in his sight. But that would be cheating. We could say all manner of strange things exist on that basis.

    Of course, the people who don't believe the moon exists would explain moonlight, tides and so on, some other way

    Quote Originally Posted by dugimodo View Post
    At a quantum level of course this is all very different,
    Actually one of the things physicists agree on is that there's no cut between the microscopic quantum world and the macroscopic world of our experience. So things are not different in the two realms

    If something happens 100% random in our macroscopic world we must observe the result to know what it is. This requirement is almost in the definition of random
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  8. #8
    amateur expert dugimodo's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    Quote Originally Posted by BBCmicro View Post
    If something happens 100% random in our macroscopic world we must observe the result to know what it is. This requirement is almost in the definition of random
    To know what it is sure, I wasn't suggesting otherwise. What I was trying to get at was that we may not observe an event or even know it occured but the effects it has on the environment will still be able to be observed at some point regardless of whether we can establish cause and effect.

    We see a tide, it's evidence the moon exists even if we don't see the moon and don't know that it causes tides or even exists. The existence of something is not dependant on our ability to understand or perceive it IMHO.
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    Senior Member 1101's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    Schrodinger's cat was never both dead and alive

    quantum rules dont apply to to large scale objects like a cat or the moon .

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    Default Re: The Moon Doesn't Exist Unless You're Looking....

    If all this is keeping you awake at night, read Adam Becker's 'What is Real?' (https://www.hodder.co.uk/books/detai...=9781473661356)

    You don't need a PhD to follow him and you will find that it's OK to be baffled, you're in good company.

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