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johnd
10-10-2007, 08:23 PM
I have just finished reading the article “Linux still doesn't make it on desktop” By Michael Gartenberg Framingham, Monday, 8 October, 2007 (see
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/tech/B8A438FE47E27663CC25736A0070C913 )

As a Linux user since 1998 and an exclusive user on my desktop and now laptop since 2001, I feel compelled to respond to am article that in my opinion is full of mis-information and unsubstantiated statements. I am happily using my PC with various printers, internet access, digital camera, scanner, wireless etc with no major issues. I have all the applications I need - I can even run old DOS games with DOSBox.

To respond to some of the negative points raised:

1.“Lack of support” - I think most people who have seen both sides of the fence would agree that you get far faster and better support from internet forums for any issues you might have than you would get directly from Microsoft. How many private individuals would have received a response from the writer of the software in a closed source environment? I can say I have from the writer of an open source program.

2.“Lack of driver support” - with careful choice of hardware and a bit of research this is not a major issue any longer. There are plenty of sites on the web to help (e.g. www.linuxprinting.org and http://linuxwireless.org/ ). I am sure one could produce an argument that Linux hardware support is better than Vista's.

3.“Cost is the hidden factor” - it is true that the price of the software is only part of the total cost but I make two points here:

i.if all you want to do is browse the internet, send and receive emails, use an office suite, listen to music, use Skype and chat channels, then anyone who can point and click with a mouse can do this. I have a friend who installs Linux systems for users such as these with next to no issues.

ii.Linux is no longer the mystery that it used to be – there are plenty of people and places to go for help.

4.“Lack of support for Microsoft Office” - unless you are a large business with a substantial investment in VBA macros, then this is no problem. Sure compatibility isn't 100%, but it is very, very close! Anyway the file formats that Open Office use are approved by the International Standards Association for long term document storage and retrieval. Microsoft's attempt to have their XML format approved was rejected! I believe a senior MS executive has been quoted as saying that if it was approved, they could not guarantee any commitment to it! Is it a wise thing to commit our information to proprietary formats?

5.“There is no version of iTunes for Linux” - anyone who has used Linux would probably say “So what!”. I must admit to never having used iTunes but I do use Amarok on my Linux PC which seems to compare very favourably on such sites as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_media_players.

So the author says “Linux still isn't the answer”. I have to say “Says who”?. This article smacks of somebody who has a word count to fulfil.

wainuitech
10-10-2007, 08:31 PM
I think the biggest problem is not Linux, but the fact that Windows has such a hold on the world market. Windows is in all computer shops/ warehouse /TV etc and its whats "pushed" to the general public.

Many people who only know Windows dont feel comfortable with any thing else, and while some have tried Linux ( me included) unless you are willing to take the time and "learn" how to do things it goes in the "Too hard basket".

Dell :badpc: for example are now putting out computers with Linux installed as an choice ( which linux I don't know). I think its what you get used to.

mikebartnz
10-10-2007, 08:56 PM
I have just finished reading the article “Linux still doesn't make it on desktop” By Michael Gartenberg Framingham, Monday, 8 October, 2007 (see
http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/tech/B8A438FE47E27663CC25736A0070C913 )

As a Linux user since 1998 and an exclusive user on my desktop and now laptop since 2001, I feel compelled to respond to am article that in my opinion is full of mis-information and unsubstantiated statements. I am happily using my PC with various printers, internet access, digital camera, scanner, wireless etc with no major issues. I have all the applications I need - I can even run old DOS games with DOSBox.

To respond to some of the negative points raised:

1.“Lack of support” - I think most people who have seen both sides of the fence would agree that you get far faster and better support from internet forums for any issues you might have than you would get directly from Microsoft. How many private individuals would have received a response from the writer of the software in a closed source environment? I can say I have from the writer of an open source program.

2.“Lack of driver support” - with careful choice of hardware and a bit of research this is not a major issue any longer. There are plenty of sites on the web to help (e.g. www.linuxprinting.org (http://www.linuxprinting.org) and http://linuxwireless.org/ ). I am sure one could produce an argument that Linux hardware support is better than Vista's.

3.“Cost is the hidden factor” - it is true that the price of the software is only part of the total cost but I make two points here:

i.if all you want to do is browse the internet, send and receive emails, use an office suite, listen to music, use Skype and chat channels, then anyone who can point and click with a mouse can do this. I have a friend who installs Linux systems for users such as these with next to no issues.

ii.Linux is no longer the mystery that it used to be – there are plenty of people and places to go for help.

4.“Lack of support for Microsoft Office” - unless you are a large business with a substantial investment in VBA macros, then this is no problem. Sure compatibility isn't 100%, but it is very, very close! Anyway the file formats that Open Office use are approved by the International Standards Association for long term document storage and retrieval. Microsoft's attempt to have their XML format approved was rejected! I believe a senior MS executive has been quoted as saying that if it was approved, they could not guarantee any commitment to it! Is it a wise thing to commit our information to proprietary formats?

5.“There is no version of iTunes for Linux” - anyone who has used Linux would probably say “So what!”. I must admit to never having used iTunes but I do use Amarok on my Linux PC which seems to compare very favourably on such sites as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_media_players.

So the author says “Linux still isn't the answer”. I have to say “Says who”?. This article smacks of somebody who has a word count to fulfil.
The guy doesn't know what he is talking about here. I wish I could remember the url of a site that took him and two others apart recently. It was an interesting read.

Metla
10-10-2007, 09:18 PM
Lack of Support

Forums don't qualify as support, hell, they only are of use if you can access the net, find a suitable forum, and then make use of the information.

Windows support is everywhere through society, Kids ,parents, friends family and lets not forget your local PC repair shop when things really go belly up.. Of course, Windows support from MS or its partners isn't there.

This doesn't exist for any other platforms, irrelevant to their other strengths or weaknesses they simply don't have the market saturation and knowledge base that goes along with it.

No matter what else, This lack of support is the main weakness for all other platforms beside Windows.



Drivers.

Hell yes. Every device has Windows drivers, Not every device has Linux drivers. Yours all work?...fine, Doesn't mean the billion unsupported devices do, nor that the head aches and of getting crap to work is worth it to Joe Average.

Cost.

Massive blowouts are foreseen for companies who make the switch and have it go belly up, Your free friend aint going to be able to rock up for that one, specialised and expensive help will be required, IF it can be found.

Joe Average sitting at home will just get around it by inserting his Windows Cd and swearing never to go near the deluded world of Linux again.

MS Office and iTunes can go to hell.

Linux ready for the deaktop?

Nope, If it were it would be there already, Its had plenty of exposure, Its readily available, and MS themselves have given users more then enough incentive to try it.

Linux failed.

Now it needs to die so something worthy can take its place.

johnd
10-10-2007, 09:27 PM
Linux failed.

So that's the end of the story? - I don't think so some how! In many ways it already has succeeded.

beeswax34
10-10-2007, 09:30 PM
The point is, I may be able to use Linuz and have the necessary gumption to do so but why would I? People assume a lot of people are frustrated with Windows but they aren't and neither am I.

If I want to do something out of the ordinary, I'll just have a different flavoured ice-cream to try this week thank you very much.

johnd
10-10-2007, 09:34 PM
If I want to do something out of the ordinary, I'll just have a different flavoured ice-cream to try this week thank you very much.

Hey that's fine! I am not trying to "convert" anyone - just trying to respond to what I think is a very poorly written article.

Metla
10-10-2007, 09:39 PM
So that's the end of the story? - I don't think so some how! In many ways it already has succeeded.

In my view yes, Linux wasn't up to the task, Due imo to its fragmentented nature and dare I say it...all around ugliness.

I think Linux has had its glory days, Maybe when something does start to take real market share off MS it will have its roots in Linux but I'd say it will have to be a far better packaged product (rather then simply a better Linux product) then current offerings, and be under the one name.

Myth
10-10-2007, 09:39 PM
To respond to some of the negative points raised:

1.“Lack of support”This is correct

2.“Lack of driver support”Also correct. Try installing a winmodem

3.“Cost is the hidden factor”The only real advantage Linux has over MS

4.“Lack of support for Microsoft Office”OpenOffice is good, but MS Office is the standard and app most people use. I notice OpenOffice does falter with some of the formatiing, not necessarily OO's fault, but it should have 100% compatibility with what most people use (that being MS Office

5.“There is no version of iTunes for Linux”Who cares about iTunes anyway


Now it needs to die so something worthy can take its place.I notice Windows also seems to be going down the screaming heap... maybe it to should roll over and die?

I personally have used Linux as an only OS for over a year now. I love it, and won't ever change. But Linux is not ready to take on Windows. Case in point, half the linux users on this forum blow about PCLOS, or Ubuntu. Both are useless. Try setting up a winmodem, or [as I found out over the weekend] wifi. I am no tard with Linux (I use Gentoo, the install is cli) but damn, did I get a headache trying to set up wifi on PCLOS (a supposedly easy distro). I also noticed that when I posted asking for help, not one PCLOS user was able to. Go figure

So I agree, Linux is NOT ready for the desktop

Metla
10-10-2007, 09:44 PM
I notice Windows also seems to be going down the screaming heap... maybe it to should roll over and die?



Hell yes, The sooner the better. MS need to be removed as the default OS. Period.

Go.Be Gone. Die.

MS make me sick. And I'm not talking about the money.

Erayd
10-10-2007, 09:58 PM
I think the question is more along the lines of "who's desktop?" Mine? Myth's? Certainly. Granny? Yep, her too. In my opinion, the major stumbling blocks to widespread desktop Linux are these: Hardware support. It's getting better, but it ain't there yet. That said though, a lot of manufacturers are now getting on board and providing Linux drivers - still not wonderful, but a lot better than it has been. "Help! It broke!" - The only way that Linux will get the widespread familarity that Windows currently enjoys in the support area is by gaining market share - as it gets more users, so the support will naturally pick up. I reckon this one is just a matter of time. "It's not Windows!" No, it's not Windows. Get over it. Linux was never intended as a Windows clone, it's an OS in its own right. It's a good choice for some, but not for others - especially the Windows power-users, who have already learned all the tips & tricks for an OS they are familiar with. To my mind, this group is the biggest block, and as it's usually this group that advises everyone else what to buy and helps fix it when things go wrong... OEM distribution agreements - from what I can see, this is the biggest stumbling block. Windows comes by default with almost every new PC on the planet - no wonder it has such a huge lock-in. For many, Windows is the computer. Force people to choose and I'm willing to bet that the Linux market share will skyrocket.

So overall, I think Linux is 'ready for the desktop' - just not all at once; it will come gradually. Is it ready for all segments? Of course not. But it does have a steel-capped boot in the door, and it ain't going away anytime soom :D.

johnd
10-10-2007, 09:58 PM
So I agree, Linux is NOT ready for the desktop
To me the items raised here do not write off an OS - if you really cannot get a win-modem to work you can buy an external serial port modem from TradeMe for $25. The problem with WiFi is not Linux - the wireless NIC manufacturers regularly change the chipset without changing the model or version number. There are heaps of supported chipsets - but if you have no way of knowing what you are getting it is difficult! If the manufacturers can be "educated", the problem will largely disappear.

Pete O'Neil
10-10-2007, 10:19 PM
To me the items raised here do not write off an OS - if you really cannot get a win-modem to work you can buy an external serial port modem from TradeMe for $25. The problem with WiFi is not Linux - the wireless NIC manufacturers regularly change the chipset without changing the model or version number. There are heaps of supported chipsets - but if you have no way of knowing what you are getting it is difficult! If the manufacturers can be "educated", the problem will largely disappear.
Trying to get wifi to work on Ubuntu prior to 7.04 was a huge mission, the Ubuntu forums are full of people who have fail and given up. it was nothing to do with chipset support in most cases the card was detected and install fine but the software was at fault. The default wifi manager only had support for WEP and even then still struggled to connect to the network. Thankfully its been fixed in 7.04 and wifi is much easier to use.

george12
10-10-2007, 11:39 PM
The day I say linux is "ready" (by the definition the article is using) is when I can install it and set up all my hardware without spending days crawling through forums to fix the problems.

And that will be a very good day :D

Sherman
10-10-2007, 11:59 PM
This is correct

I personally have used Linux as an only OS for over a year now. I love it, and won't ever change. But Linux is not ready to take on Windows. Case in point, half the linux users on this forum blow about PCLOS, or Ubuntu. Both are useless. Try setting up a winmodem, or [as I found out over the weekend] wifi. I am no tard with Linux (I use Gentoo, the install is cli) but damn, did I get a headache trying to set up wifi on PCLOS (a supposedly easy distro). I also noticed that when I posted asking for help, not one PCLOS user was able to. Go figure

So I agree, Linux is NOT ready for the desktop

Maybe I was lucky with my intel wifi card...
But under PCLOS, it worked perfectly with setting up my card. In fact, by the time the livecd is loaded, I can be fully connected to my WPA2 protected WiFi network. With most other distros I've tried, getting WPA/WPA2 working properly is a real mission.

zqwerty
11-10-2007, 12:06 AM
I tried both Puppy Linux and Damn Small Linux, couldn't connect to the internet because of winmodem problem, so didn't go any further.

This is not an example of a system that is ready for the desktop of the average user.

What is up with the developers that they have not sorted out this problem?

Most people in the under-developed world who would use Linux will be on dial up and have winmodems on their computers.

mikebartnz
11-10-2007, 12:25 AM
OpenOffice is good, but MS Office is the standard and app most people use. I notice OpenOffice does falter with some of the formatiing, not necessarily OO's fault, but it should have 100% compatibility with what most people use (that being MS Office
I recently requested an order form from a company and it came as an MS Office doc format which could not be read by any program I had so they lost my business. From what I have seen the majority of home users would hardly ever need anything more than a basic word processor it is businesses with years of macros that have a problem changing.
All these people wanting a hundred percent compatibility I disagree with as now ODF is a standard and OOXML isn't for the moment OpenOffice should be doing it's own thing.
I feel one reason Linux will be slow at increasing it's share is the fact that so many open source projects are also ported to Windows which gives no incentive for people to make a conscious change.

Myth
11-10-2007, 06:26 AM
To me the items raised here do not write off an OS - if you really cannot get a win-modem to work you can buy an external serial port modem from TradeMe for $25. The problem with WiFi is not Linux - the wireless NIC manufacturers regularly change the chipset without changing the model or version number. There are heaps of supported chipsets - but if you have no way of knowing what you are getting it is difficult! If the manufacturers can be "educated", the problem will largely disappear.Why should someone buy another product just so that they can use Linux?
Also, not once did I blame Linux for the lack of hardware support, I know it NOST of the problem lies with hardware manufacturers

I think the question is more along the lines of "who's desktop?" Mine? Myth's? Certainly. Granny? Yep, her too. In my opinion, the major stumbling blocks to widespread desktop Linux are these: Hardware support. It's getting better, but it ain't there yet. That said though, a lot of manufacturers are now getting on board and providing Linux drivers - still not wonderful, but a lot better than it has been. "Help! It broke!" - The only way that Linux will get the widespread familarity that Windows currently enjoys in the support area is by gaining market share - as it gets more users, so the support will naturally pick up. I reckon this one is just a matter of time. "It's not Windows!" No, it's not Windows. Get over it. Linux was never intended as a Windows clone, it's an OS in its own right. It's a good choice for some, but not for others - especially the Windows power-users, who have already learned all the tips & tricks for an OS they are familiar with. To my mind, this group is the biggest block, and as it's usually this group that advises everyone else what to buy and helps fix it when things go wrong... OEM distribution agreements - from what I can see, this is the biggest stumbling block. Windows comes by default with almost every new PC on the planet - no wonder it has such a huge lock-in. For many, Windows is the computer. Force people to choose and I'm willing to bet that the Linux market share will skyrocket.

So overall, I think Linux is 'ready for the desktop' - just not all at once; it will come gradually. Is it ready for all segments? Of course not. But it does have a steel-capped boot in the door, and it ain't going away anytime soom :D.Agreed (maybe I should have PMed you and asked you to reply for both of us :p - yours was worded better)

Maybe I was lucky with my intel wifi card...
But under PCLOS, it worked perfectly with setting up my card. In fact, by the time the livecd is loaded, I can be fully connected to my WPA2 protected WiFi network. With most other distros I've tried, getting WPA/WPA2 working properly is a real mission.Some cards have full support while others don't. IN theory my card should have worked (the driver is in the kernel, just not working on PCLOS)

I recently requested an order form from a company and it came as an MS Office doc format which could not be read by any program I had so they lost my business. From what I have seen the majority of home users would hardly ever need anything more than a basic word processor it is businesses with years of macros that have a problem changing.
All these people wanting a hundred percent compatibility I disagree with as now ODF is a standard and OOXML isn't for the moment OpenOffice should be doing it's own thing.
I feel one reason Linux will be slow at increasing it's share is the fact that so many open source projects are also ported to Windows which gives no incentive for people to make a conscious change.In order to take on the beast (MS) one should beat it on all fronts, even if this means porting to an inferior format until you have the main share

johnd
11-10-2007, 08:12 AM
Why should someone buy another product just so that they can use Linux?

Maybe because they think Linux is a good OS - why should anyone buy another product just so they can use Vista?

Deane F
11-10-2007, 09:03 AM
Linux is fine for computer enthusiasts. I actually like to know how my system works and having problems with it - in the long term view - helps me learn more about it.

I have played around with Linux (Suse 9 & 10 & 10.1 with KDE) and true, it does give me a lot more control over things than Windows.

The reason that Linux is not ready for the desktop market is that the vast majority of users are not like me. People go to Dell/Noel Leeming/Hardly Normal/Apple and buy integrated systems because they just want to sit down and use their computer - not manage it.

linw
11-10-2007, 09:25 AM
Maybe because they think Linux is a good OS - why should anyone buy another product just so they can use Vista?

You really don't get it. How on earth do the unwashed know Linux is a good OS? The fact that a lot of people don't even know what OS they are running should tell us something. The vast majority of people just want things to work. They don't have any inclination or ability to get help from windows oriented forums so they sure as hell won't understand Linux geek talk forums.

We can all agree that you can set up a machine with Linux to reliably run a number of apps but it is the future we worry about. Like when they come back from a Harvey Norman sale with some hardware or software not able to run on Linux. They ring you as the person who advised them that Linux was the way to go (remember they don't know how to judge an OS). So, now you feel guilty and try to help and wonder why you bothered as with several instances like this you suddenly have lost your cred and all your spare time.

I could go on but this has got boring.

And, BTW, the person you told to buy an external serial modem has done so and just rung you to say they can't find the socket to plug it in. Yes, those sockets are disappearing, too.

kjaada
11-10-2007, 12:26 PM
I have been following these posts for some time and would now like to ask:
Where would we be if Windows was the one and only OS.I am pretty sure my bank account would possibly be compromised and my inbox would be full of rubbish unless I paid up to get protection.And I also think freebe things like Avast and Spybot would also be costing.

robsonde
11-10-2007, 07:00 PM
I think linux will have a hard time getting to the desktop in a big way because of one issue......
i will enlighten you all on this soon......


first i would like to ask which distro would be best for a first time switcher?

Myth
11-10-2007, 07:08 PM
I think linux will have a hard time getting to the desktop in a big way because of one issue......
i will enlighten you all on this soon......


first i would like to ask which distro would be best for a first time switcher?Depends on which fanboy you're asking lol. One contingent in this forum will swear by PCLinuxOS, while another will swear by the advantages of Ubuntu. I personally prefer Gentoo, but for the first timer, Mepis is a pretty good starter

robsonde
11-10-2007, 07:22 PM
Depends on which fanboy you're asking lol. One contingent in this forum will swear by PCLinuxOS, while another will swear by the advantages of Ubuntu. I personally prefer Gentoo, but for the first timer, Mepis is a pretty good starter

and that my friends is the point! :-)
that is the one factor that stops a good number of users.

until there is less in-fighting of distro's there will be a problem getting good uptake on the desktop.

a new user has no clue as to which distro does what and asking for advise on the average tech forum will leave them even more confused.


as for me i use many an OS but not linux, so my questino was kind of flame bate :-)

what i use:
win XP at home as main desktop
win2k at work as main desktop
solaris at work as server OS
open BSD at home as server OS

wainuitech
11-10-2007, 08:13 PM
and that my friends is the point! :-)
that is the one factor that stops a good number of users.

until there is less in-fighting of distro's there will be a problem getting good uptake on the desktop.

a new user has no clue as to which distro does what and asking for advise on the average tech forum will leave them even more confused.


SNEAKY way to get a point across - I love it :lol: :thumbs:

Never heard of Mepis before now either - guess your point is very valid.

winmacguy
11-10-2007, 08:43 PM
The reason that Linux is not ready for the desktop market is that the vast majority of users are not like me. People go to Dell/Noel Leeming/Hardly Normal/Apple and buy integrated systems because they just want to sit down and use their computer - not manage it.

Right on the money.

lysdexic
12-10-2007, 06:56 AM
and that my friends is the point! :-)
that is the one factor that stops a good number of users.

until there is less in-fighting of distro's there will be a problem getting good uptake on the desktop.

a new user has no clue as to which distro does what and asking for advise on the average tech forum will leave them even more confused.


as for me i use many an OS but not linux, so my questino was kind of flame bate :-)

what i use:
win XP at home as main desktop
win2k at work as main desktop
solaris at work as server OS
open BSD at home as server OSNicely done. However, coming from a *BSD user, isn't this like "the pot calling the kettle black"? when exactly the same in-fighting occurs between users of OpenBSD, FreeBSD etc etc?

As for infighting among Linux distros, yes there is, and yes, it will always happen so long as you have newbies who think the sun shines from pathetic distros like PCLOS and a few others (IMHO), and long term users who prefer the older distros (Debian, Slackware etc)

robsonde
12-10-2007, 07:12 AM
Nicely done. However, coming from a *BSD user, isn't this like "the pot calling the kettle black"? when exactly the same in-fighting occurs between users of OpenBSD, FreeBSD etc etc?

This is true, but I would never push BSD for the desktop or try and push any OS over any other.

the way that M$ took the world was to have one OS and push it to every one the same.

lysdexic
12-10-2007, 07:13 AM
Incidentally, the same in-fighting occurs with all OS's. Look at the XP - Vista one going on at the moment, (and some still prefer to use 98 :p)

personthingy
12-10-2007, 07:57 AM
The reason that Linux is not ready for the desktop market is that the vast majority of users are not like me. People go to Dell/Noel Leeming/Hardly Normal/Apple and buy integrated systems because they just want to sit down and use their computer - not manage it.Righto.. i have to tear this apart, or atleast the assumption that those running linux MUST spend more time "managing" thier computers than windows users, or mac users for that matter.

Yes it's easier to tweak and modify the system. Why is this seen as a bad thing? We don't generally NEED to tweak a running desktop system, it's just some of us choose to. and that applies to users of any OS. I suggest that after the half hour it takes to set up a fast computer with any basic install there will be little if any futher tweaking needed.

As a linux user have no antivirus, or any other add-on extra cost safety features. The reason is that i don't need any.

I stay up to date by opening a command window once every few months, and typing "su - " (to make me the all power) giving my root password when asked, and typing "apt-get update" and then letting the machine do it's stuff. while i get on with using the machine as if nothing is going on. I do close the window when it's finished, i could watch all the downloads and installs progressing, but there's no need to. I think that's alot easier than downloading a patch CD, or "service pack" and going through the whole cursed installation routine complete with no dought several reboots and the rest of it.

I have spent far too much time fixing default windows installations that have gone bad, and know several compulsive tweakers who are constantly trying, and often failing to repair the damage the kids have given the computer. By comparisn, linux issues are far fewer even for family machines.

Yes, dial up modems can be an issue, but not always, and this is not an issue that effects a whole lot of people these days anyway. Either way, i'd rather get a good modem than change my OS to suit a difficult one! Games are also an issue at times, but not everyone is a gamer.

A very clued up tech once told me that 90% of the issues that clients assume to be hardware failures are in fact software. I believe this to still be true in windows world, but if anything fails for me, or 90% of us linux users it really is hardware, usually.

and i might mention that this is posted from a rock solid linux box running far too much on a machine saved from the dump :)
Cheers :)

kjaada
12-10-2007, 08:13 AM
Righto.. i have to tear this apart, or atleast the assumption that those running linux MUST spend more time "managing" thier computers than windows users, or mac users for that matter.
I agree 100% and would add that for an old retired bloke it is the VOLUNTARY tweaking and poking in to the inner workings that make Linux good for me.On the other hand it will do anything Windows will do in an office situation or a home where a reliable basic and safe puter is called for.

Pacifier
12-10-2007, 08:30 AM
.On the other hand it will do anything Windows will do in an office situation or a home where a reliable basic and safe puter is called for.

I support a corporate envionment running thousands of PCs, and I run Linux very successfully at home on variuos machines. I would hate to have to support the corporate environment if it was Linux, it would be a nightmare.

It is not ready for the wider market desktop - End of story :p

Deane F
12-10-2007, 08:32 AM
Ok - let's hear from the Linux defenders how many non-enthusiast users they know who are using Linux.

By "non-enthusiast" I mean the type of people who call the case the "hard-drive" and know how to double-click - but not necessarily right-click.

personthingy
12-10-2007, 08:43 AM
I support a corporate envionment running thousands of PCs, and I run Linux very successfully at home on variuos machines. I would hate to have to support the corporate environment if it was Linux, it would be a nightmare.

It is not ready for the wider market desktop - End of story :pThat almost sounds like an aguemment for home user and servers being linux but corperate machines being windows? I would have thought corperate linux would be easy as you could, with the right knowledge shh into anymachine, just as Bletch does with meinserver for CF1, even tho it's at my home in a different city. It's set up was largely done by Bletch remotely. I just hasd to put in a CD and let him guide me through the set up by phone for 10 minutes (?) till he took over. Can you do that with windows?


Ok - let's hear from the Linux defenders how many non-enthusiast users they know who are using Linux.

By "non-enthusiast" I mean the type of people who call the case the "hard-drive" and know how to double-click - but not necessarily right-click.I could quote the case of my friends computer that i set up as a dual boot, and whose kids killed windows with viri, and through there own lack of naus became linix users as this was the only system they couldn't kill....

wainuitech
12-10-2007, 08:58 AM
There is also one big disadvantage with having linux in a corperate workplace

- As we all know you can change linux to your liking to do many different things, thats not so bad , in fact in some cases its may be a security measure, or a good thing.
But The oppersite can also apply - I know of several cases
(never delt with them before because I only "play" with a linux OS) where the local IT person has changed a linux server then left disgruntled or moved on and no one else knows how or what he/she has done.
Personally I have had around half a dozen calls for help over the last year with this exact problem.

In a windows server at least there is more of a "standard" set of operations you can do to get things working, and more IT people know how to work it.

Okay - any person who is well skilled in linux may be able to sort out a linux problem, but sometimes finding those people can be damn right impossible.

As for using linux in the home - most people simply want a PC to work. The command prompt that you sometimes still have to do is to much for some users.

One last thing - if Linux is so much better than windows, then why is each upgraded version of any linux distro always trying to get closer and closer to work the same way as Windows in the interface ?

personthingy
12-10-2007, 09:16 AM
There is also one big disadvantage with having linux in a corperate workplace ......... where the local IT person has changed a linux server then left disgruntled or moved on and no one else knows how or what he/she has done. Having the server(s) secure so only the sys admin(s) can **** with them is generally considered a good thing, is it not?



Okay - any person who is well skilled in linux may be able to sort out a linux problem, but sometimes finding those people can be damn right impossible. Granted, but changing. Also a matter of knowing where to look.



One last thing - if Linux is so much better than windows, then why is each upgraded version of any linux distro always trying to get closer and closer to work the same way as Windows in the interface ???????

wainuitech
12-10-2007, 11:21 AM
To answer the above "quotes and post"

Yep secure servers are good, I fully agree, in fact you wouldn't want just "anybody" playing around with servers.

Maybe some of the tech's that know about linux should be "more available" I know lots of service people, but none of them know any more about linux than I do - Personally I 'm quite happy sevicing windows OS's - and thats my choice.

The last one with the ?????? Exactly as it says - in fact I have actually seen it stated in various linux sites that the distro ( what ever one it may be) is upgraded to work more like the windows interface. Here (http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/news/2004/01/62016) is a classic example, and This article (http://www.linux.com/articles/23266) Mentions it several times.
And here is a quote from the site above in a link to ELX Designed to suit the Mind-Map of a Windows user, so no re-learning required

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against Linux one little bit - Every one has a free choice as to what OS they wish to run. There is nothing stopping a Windows user down loading Linux, and installing it on their PC.
But its really a case that People who like / use linux are going to say its the best and others should do also, people who dont want to change from Windows wont no matter what any one says, then people who use MAC's say they are the best.

We all have the choice to use what ever OS we want, and what I spose annoys me the most is others trying to be forceful and say you HAVE to use this simply because they think its better.

Why doesn't Linux have as many virus problems, well 1 because of the way it works of course not so easy to infect as Windows, but also because there dont appear to be as many Linux PC as Windows - now if it were reversed and there were MANY MANY more Linux PC,s, then the people who write the viruses certainly would make sure those systems could be infected.

While no where as many as windows, that stands to reason - and dont say there are none - people who say that have their heads in the sand - Example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_computer_viruses) as linux is used more there numbers will increase.

mikebartnz
12-10-2007, 11:29 AM
As for infighting among Linux distros, yes there is, and yes, it will always happen so long as you have newbies who think the sun shines from pathetic distros like PCLOS and a few others (IMHO), and long term users who prefer the older distros (Debian, Slackware etc)
Just curious as to why you think PCLOS is such a pathetic distro.

personthingy
12-10-2007, 02:47 PM
And here is a quote from the site above in a link to ELX Designed to suit the Mind-Map of a Windows user, so no re-learning required.This is something i feel dubious about, the fact one has to offer the fimiliar to encourage people try something different. Tis a little sad....

We all have the choice to use what ever OS we want, and what I spose annoys me the most is others trying to be forceful and say you HAVE to use this simply because they think its better.That's what annoys me about posts like the one that strated this thread. I think the reality is not that ""Linux is not ready for the desktop"!!". It has been the desktop of many people for years, BUT isn't the choice of many (yet?). All OS's have their strenths and weaknesses, all of the 3 main strains are "ready for the desktop" and have been for many years.

While no where as many as windows, that stands to reason - and dont say there are none - people who say that have their heads in the sand - Example (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Linux_computer_viruses) as linux is used more there numbers will increase.True there aren't as many Linux desktops machines out there, but it appears that most of the WWW's is served from Linux machines, allthough the actual count of the machines will be just over half, and yet these are largely left alone, even tho their position, bandwidth capabilities and so forth make them PERFECT targets. My server got attacked a few months ago. A programming weakness was exploited, the weakness being my bloody stupid root password. so for 3 days meinserver moved 40Gb of data trying to find other bloody stupid root passwords, hopefully without success, untill it was switched off and reformatted. i'm not sure if strickly speaking that was "viral" activity, but it's close enough. It does happen, but it is rare.

Pete O'Neil
12-10-2007, 02:57 PM
Depends on which fanboy you're asking lol. One contingent in this forum will swear by PCLinuxOS, while another will swear by the advantages of Ubuntu. I personally prefer Gentoo, but for the first timer, Mepis is a pretty good starter
It does actually seem as if the forum is surprisingly united when it comes to recommending Linux distro's, PCLinuxOS and Ubuntu both give considerably different end user experiences due to there use of KDE and Gnome respectively. There will always be the KDE vs. Gnome war but atleast on these forums its the two distro's that seem to be consistently recommended.

winmacguy
12-10-2007, 03:38 PM
Righto.. i have to tear this apart, or atleast the assumption that those running linux MUST spend more time "managing" thier computers than windows users, or mac users for that matter.


Its not that Linux users "have" to spend more time "managing" Linux compared to Windows or Mac, its more that they can if they want to which is part of the appeal of Linux among the tech minded crowd.

Broadly speaking, Windows users view their PCs as a tool that they use or have to use each day for work and at home for play, games, music, photos etc. Some PC users use a PC because they like to be able to work with the hardware of their choice when building a new machine or update an existing one.

Mac users use Macs because they want to and generally because they don't want to have to do anything to the OS like maintenance or defragging (not required with OS X)
How ever in certain scientific fields, Mac using scientists are able to make use of the Terminal for running some applications and tweaking others.

Myth
12-10-2007, 08:08 PM
Just curious as to why you think PCLOS is such a pathetic distro.I personally don't like it because the documentation for it is rather scarce. Even the forums have minimal info

Myth
12-10-2007, 08:10 PM
and that my friends is the point! :-)
that is the one factor that stops a good number of users.

until there is less in-fighting of distro's there will be a problem getting good uptake on the desktop.

a new user has no clue as to which distro does what and asking for advise on the average tech forum will leave them even more confused.
Nicely set up. However, I was trying to give an honest non-fanboy opinion

johnd
12-10-2007, 08:14 PM
OK - I seem to have started a ripe one here (not unexpected I must admit)! After reading all of this I guess some of you will still say "he just doesn't get it" - and no I don't I guess. How can people state categorically that "Linux is NOT ready for the desktop" when it is successfully being used on the desktop by (for example):
1. Myself - OK lets put that to one side since I am a technical person
2. By quite a number of ordinary mostly older people who have systems set up by my friend with next to no return calls.
3. European Governmental use - just as an example "The minister of infrastructure and technological development of Extremadura, the autonomous region of Spain where Mérida is the capital, has invested €300,000 over the past three years to develop Linux and distribute it to the regional government’s PCs" ref. http://globaltechforum.eiu.com/index.asp?layout=rich_story&doc_id=7180&categoryid=&channelid=&search=challenger

Anyway - unless something significant is said, I bow out here ...

Erayd
12-10-2007, 08:36 PM
How ever in certain scientific fields, Mac using scientists are able to make use of the Terminal for running some applications and tweaking others.I fire up a terminal almost every time I sit down in front of a mac. Your point?

mikebartnz
12-10-2007, 08:36 PM
I personally don't like it because the documentation for it is rather scarce. Even the forums have minimal info
I would agree with that. It is probably a lot to do with the live CD bit. It's a pity they don't do an all inclusive DVD

winmacguy
12-10-2007, 08:43 PM
I fire up a terminal almost every time I sit down in front of a mac. Your point?

Your not the only person. I wish I was more capable at using Terminal. I guess my point is that it is there if you want it but it is not essential in day to day use of a Mac although if needed it provides a Unix command prompt for many tasks.

gibler
12-10-2007, 09:11 PM
Your not the only person. I wish I was more capable at using Terminal. I guess my point is that it is there if you want it but it is not essential in day to day use of a Mac although if needed it provides a Unix command prompt for many tasks.

It seems pretty much needed for OS X Server though. You need to edit some config files, use ssh, copy/delete file and folders without the mucking around using the Finder and fix file permissions.

winmacguy
12-10-2007, 09:20 PM
It seems pretty much needed for OS X Server though. You need to edit some config files, use ssh, copy/delete file and folders without the mucking around using the Finder and fix file permissions.

Very true although there is a difference between a Mac/Unix admin user requirements and a designer or Mac Op production. The only other person who would need to use the terminal in would be the prepress department. regular users don't need it.
I gather Apple has endeavoured to enable most of the server functions via the GUI rather than the Terminal.

Will be interesting to see what Leopard server is going to be like.

mikebartnz
12-10-2007, 09:24 PM
Here is an interesting read (http://blog.lobby4linux.com/index.php?/archives/85-One-Small-Business-Gladly-Gives-Microsoft-the-Boot.html) for you all.

plod
12-10-2007, 09:54 PM
Very true although there is a difference between a Mac/Unix admin user requirements and a designer or Mac Op production. The only other person who would need to use the terminal in would be the prepress department. regular users don't need it.
I gather Apple has endeavoured to enable most of the server functions via the GUI rather than the Terminal.

Will be interesting to see what Leopard server is going to be like.

what does prepress use the terminal for?

winmacguy
12-10-2007, 10:22 PM
what does prepress use the terminal for?

From what I have seen, print que logs and setting up watched print ques from multiple users on a print server. Being that I was only a Mac op production it was out side of my area.

ableton
12-10-2007, 10:58 PM
well, its just personal choice really, i use windows and have used and have linux just incase windows mess up and i need to access my files.

the winmodem thingy i dont thing its an issue since most people i know use broadband anyways. who uses dial-up these days ? lol

the only thing anoying to me is that all this linux distros update almost every month, and if you are excited just like me you want to try the new one always and its basicly waist of time.

For now i have Linux on my usb pen drive and use it when i need it.

Myth
13-10-2007, 08:33 AM
the winmodem thingy i dont thing its an issue since most people i know use broadband anyways. who uses dial-up these days ? lol
If you live in a lower socio-economic area like I do, quite a few people. I personally have broadband, but quite a lot of computers I see in this area use dialup and still run on 98

beama
13-10-2007, 09:01 AM
Lack of Support

Drivers.

Hell yes. Every device has Windows drivers ...........



Did you forget Vista

wainuitech
13-10-2007, 09:44 AM
Did you forget Vista

Thats nothing New - that always happens when a New OS arrives.

The exact same problem happened when XP came out, many programs didn't work on XP that worked fine on 98.

Same story - different year that s all. And Linux is the same - it takes time for manufactures to make drivers for every New OS. Hell a lot of security programs still dont work on Vista and its been out how long now ?