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View Full Version : And so it begins.... AGAIN!!!



winmacguy
09-08-2007, 03:45 PM
One of the most significant moments in the long battle for deregulation of the telecommunications market in New Zealand played out this morning in the mundane surrounds of a central Auckland telephone exchange.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/3/story.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10456728&ref=rss

Lets hope this is just the start of better BB deals.:)

Battleneter2
09-08-2007, 04:07 PM
ADSL2 will do little for the average Kiwi DSL user that can't hit full speeds(with poor service) on DSL 1 now which is most people. Add in the fact that Telecom still have a Monopoly on most of NZ's international bandwidth through owning the largest stake in the Southern Cross Cable company, and you will have to excuse me for not getting overly excited.


Tell me the government is to invest in a full nationwide residential Fibre or Hybrid fiber/cable network and sell access back to all providers, now that will get me excited.

With DSL unbundled or not we are in for similar pricing and quaility of service.


The copper local loop need to be replaced ASAP, I realise it will take another 10 years for the media to pick up on this and for the general public to get behind it.

mmmork
09-08-2007, 04:40 PM
The small print in the unbundling drama says telecom must open up 15 exchanges per quarter. There are 400+ exchanges. Telecom still has the power, as ever it has, to control or stifle BB as it sees fit for the next few years. bugger all has changed depending on how lucky you are geographically

I assume they COULD open every exchange tomorrow, but why would they?

winmacguy
09-08-2007, 04:41 PM
I would be inclined to agree with you Battleneter2.

wratterus
09-08-2007, 04:45 PM
What's annoying, is I can't see bugger all happening in the way of speed increases for rural customers in the near future. It's not so much the cost I'm worried about, it's the speed. If I could get 10mbit down and 2mbit up, and a decent (40gig+) cap, I wouldn't mind paying $80 or $100 a month for it, but it's non existant. And seeing as everyones sticking with copper rurally, even if it gets cheaper it's not gonna get a helluva lot faster, probably slower as more and more customers join. :(

jermsie
09-08-2007, 05:31 PM
ADSL2 will do little for the average Kiwi DSL user that can't hit full speeds(with poor service) on DSL 1 now which is most people. Add in the fact that Telecom still have a Monopoly on most of NZ's international bandwidth through owning the largest stake in the Southern Cross Cable company, and you will have to excuse me for not getting overly excited.


Tell me the government is to invest in a full nationwide residential Fibre or Hybrid fiber/cable network and sell access back to all providers, now that will get me excited.

With DSL unbundled or not we are in for similar pricing and quaility of service.


The copper local loop need to be replaced ASAP, I realise it will take another 10 years for the media to pick up on this and for the general public to get behind it.

The next time im in town I will take photographs of the Telecom "grafitti" marking fibre locations, ducts and cable numbers. It's absolutely everywhere. I'm a sneaky ****e so I quite often ask telecom technicians what they're doing under the ground...
It's a good way of getting information you don't hear in the media. :P

winmacguy
09-08-2007, 05:38 PM
I have seen a lot of that around our way where the footpaths are about to be dug up and re concreted.

pctek
09-08-2007, 09:02 PM
What's annoying, is I can't see bugger all happening in the way of speed increases for rural customers in the near future. It's not so much the cost I'm worried about, it's the speed. If I could get 10mbit

Nope. Nor even rubbish broadband for those stuck on dialup.
Nor can I see a mad rush of other ISPs rolling out new equipment.

msnforum
09-08-2007, 10:23 PM
Besides looking at the speed we have at the moment, they should also look at ways to remove caps. I rarely can find a piece of news saying that ISPs are trying their best to get rid of caps. No matter how fast your net can go, you will get capped unless you are on the existing Go Large plan.

jermsie
09-08-2007, 10:36 PM
Broadband 3 on Ihug is getting there...
Next month it will be upped to 2GB a day max, so that's about 60GB a month for $50 with ihug phone, $60 without (what we pay). Less than what most aussie neighbours pay! My brother had to downgrade to an ADSL exchange from ADSL2+ and pays $90 for 30gb, 1.5Mbps(or 2mbit) from Internode.
In time the caps will change... It just takes ages for these changes to happen.

stu161204
09-08-2007, 10:38 PM
Besides looking at the speed we have at the moment, they should also look at ways to remove caps. I rarely can find a piece of news saying that ISPs are trying their best to get rid of caps. No matter how fast your net can go, you will get capped unless you are on the existing Go Large plan.

Thatís never every going to happen (in NZ at lest), as we all know what happens when ISPís offer unlimited downloads take for example what happened with Xtra Go Large plan or any other ISP that has in the past has offered unlimited downloads.

The best we can hope for is bigger caps

winmacguy
09-08-2007, 10:40 PM
It's not the copper that is the problem as much as the old routers/networking gear that are slow and can't cope with the existing peak time demands.

jermsie
09-08-2007, 10:43 PM
Thatís never every going to happen (in NZ at lest), as we all know what happens when ISPís offer unlimited downloads take for example what happened with Xtra Go Large plan or any other ISP that has in the past has offered unlimited downloads.

The best we can hope for is bigger caps

I imagine data is bloody expensive, ISPs need to make a fair profit. It is BUSINESS after all.

Go Large was a mistake. Careful planning could have prevented the huge cock up xtra made (or was it rigged from the start?). I think they were under pressure to make a competive product that would attract customers from within Xtra and other providers.

Digby
10-08-2007, 08:19 AM
Yes, saw it on tv this morning. Quite interesting. Orcon and Igug had some pretty red boxes in there.

Regards

Digby

paulw
10-08-2007, 08:57 AM
Yes, saw it on tv this morning. Quite interesting. Orcon and Igug had some pretty red boxes in there.

Regards

Digby

I hope in the end the result just isn't allot of pretty color boxes with company logos painted on them but some real improvement on speed / service..

Battleneter2
10-08-2007, 09:37 AM
The next time im in town I will take photographs of the Telecom "grafitti" marking fibre locations, ducts and cable numbers. It's absolutely everywhere. I'm a sneaky ****e so I quite often ask telecom technicians what they're doing under the ground...
It's a good way of getting information you don't hear in the media. :P

The key word is RESIDENTIAL, there is Firbre running to most CBD's and up and down the country just not residentially to the home.

I have residential 10Mb Telstra cable(prob soon to be 25MB) as I live in CHCH, Aucklanders can't get it, many in Wellington can as well.

Being on DSL for years and changing to cable (which is a Hybrid Fibre/Cable network) made me realise what the country needs to do, the difference is night and day.

Of course the Auckland City Council squashed cable 7 years ago as it was "ugly' hanging on the power polls, like the power cables are pretty lol, crazy but it happened and the whole country is paying for it now.

intel hunter
10-08-2007, 10:24 AM
I was told years ago by someone who worked for the railways, that there was a fibre optic cable running the length of the country, either near or beside the rails, but the railways wouldn't let anyone else use it. I could be wrong though. :2cents:

Battleneter2
10-08-2007, 10:55 AM
I was told years ago by someone who worked for the railways, that there was a fibre optic cable running the length of the country, either near or beside the rails, but the railways wouldn't let anyone else use it. I could be wrong though. :2cents:

Yes there is Fiber running basically the length of the country 100% confirmed! and to most CBD's 100% confirmed! for some business and backhaul.

BUT not residentially to homes accept for some of the lucky ones in Christchurch and Wellington and even then its a little under 50% coverage. No plans for Auckland at all for example long term!

johcar
10-08-2007, 11:29 AM
Yes there is Fiber running basically the length of the country 100% confirmed! and to most CBD's 100% confirmed! for some business and backhaul.

BUT not residentially to homes accept for some of the lucky ones in Christchurch and Wellington and even then its a little under 50% coverage. No plans for Auckland at all for example long term!There IS fibre in Auckland residential streets (on the North Shore anyway). I worked for UnitedNetworks back in the day and they were very busy laying fibre when doing undergrounding of power lines (conduits side-by-side). It's just no-one is bothering to use the damn things!!!

chiefnz
10-08-2007, 11:40 AM
Well will this finally be the turning point for NZ broadband.... only time will tell.

Reading 1 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=5&objectid=10456768)

video 1 (http://www.tv3.co.nz/VideoBrowseAll/BusinessVideo/tabid/369/articleID/32200/Default.aspx#video) 56K warning

Will we finally get what we have been promised for so many years.

Cheers

Battleneter2
10-08-2007, 12:00 PM
There IS fibre in Auckland residential streets (on the North Shore anyway). I worked for UnitedNetworks back in the day and they were very busy laying fibre when doing undergrounding of power lines (conduits side-by-side). It's just no-one is bothering to use the damn things!!!

Forgod sakes RESIDENTIAL, you cannot go and get a residential cable plan in Auckland can you?

Some residential streets will of course have fiber, but to link a business area or university or backhaul from other exchanges etc. Still not intended for residential use.

There was some residential fiber started I agree, but squashed by the ACC as posted above, however knowing any of this will not help Aucklander's get a World class broadband connection any time in the near future, and unfortunately unbundling won't help that cause much either.

Lets skip all this foreplay and go residential fiber now, have to do it eventually.

wratterus
10-08-2007, 12:21 PM
Bah.

We're not gonna see any change.:(

wainuitech
10-08-2007, 01:02 PM
Knowing Telecom Of Course you will, dont they always supply what they promise ?. LMAO - :lol: :lol: - Just like we are all going to win Lotto this weekend.:D

I'd be VERY surprised if much changes.

Bozo
10-08-2007, 01:11 PM
but they are still using copper wire? *** is up with using ancient technology and equipment? if they were only to use fiber optic, and allowed customers to pay the extra to have fiber line right into their houses, imagine the extra speed we would get?
Me and a friend have tried multiple times to get fiber right into our houses, even though we were going to pay every step of the way, telecom wouldn't allow us to.
To make it even more thick-headed, they were laying the fiber lines for the mains right outside our houses! all they would've had to do was run it off the exchange (about 100 meters away) and we could've had fiber right into the house!
But Oh NO! that would mean good thinking and good speeds telecom thought, can't allow our customers to actaully be happy and get good speeds can we?
lol

bevy121
10-08-2007, 05:50 PM
Thats a dead link STU

robbyp
11-08-2007, 12:57 AM
but they are still using copper wire? *** is up with using ancient technology and equipment? if they were only to use fiber optic, and allowed customers to pay the extra to have fiber line right into their houses, imagine the extra speed we would get?
Me and a friend have tried multiple times to get fiber right into our houses, even though we were going to pay every step of the way, telecom wouldn't allow us to.
To make it even more thick-headed, they were laying the fiber lines for the mains right outside our houses! all they would've had to do was run it off the exchange (about 100 meters away) and we could've had fiber right into the house!
But Oh NO! that would mean good thinking and good speeds telecom thought, can't allow our customers to actaully be happy and get good speeds can we?
lol

But ADSL uses copper lines. Telecom only provide residential broadband via ADSL. There is nothing stopping you installing your own fibre optic, but you won't find a provider to use it, unless you live in a telstra area that provides fibre.

What I want to know is why Slingshot weren't at the exchange ready to install their equipment. They have gone very quiet since unbundling was announced, and that they will now have to put their money where their mouth has been. I expected that sleazy Malcom Dick to be their, although he wold look rather old a crusty next to the young guys from Orcon and Vodafone(aka ihug).

Telecom now has no incentive to upgrade to fibre optic, becuase if they did invest heavily in such technology, the government could also force them to open up their fibre network. I think the only solution is for the government to install it.

Poppa John
11-08-2007, 11:44 AM
Forgive my Cynicality (A word?) but the only ones who will benefit will be the ones who make the money. Any improvements will only cost US more. PJ

paulw
11-08-2007, 04:26 PM
I was told years ago by someone who worked for the railways, that there was a fibre optic cable running the length of the country, either near or beside the rails, but the railways wouldn't let anyone else use it. I could be wrong though. :2cents:

Correct. I believe it was sold to Clear by Transrail about 10 years ago..

JJJJJ
11-08-2007, 05:34 PM
Well i don't particularly care wether we get faster broadband or not. Since I have been with xnet I always d/l at better than 3 mb's a second and upload at about 750 KBS.
I'm more than happy with that.

Billy T
11-08-2007, 05:52 PM
Forgive my Cynicality (A word?) but the only ones who will benefit will be the ones who make the money. Any improvements will only cost US more. PJ
The word you were searching for is cynicism PJ, and under a capitalist society it's the rich wot gets the pleasure and the poor wot gets the blame.

Under the alternative system for redistribution of wealth as offered by modern socialism of course, it's the rich wot gets the pleasure and the poor wot gets the blame.

Under the only other viable alternative of a Mugabe styled dictatorship, the rich don't get no pleasure and the poor don't live long enough to worry about anything as frivolous as broadband.

Cynical? Moi?

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :dogeye:

Cicero
11-08-2007, 06:14 PM
The word you were searching for is cynicism PJ, and under a capitalist society it's the rich wot gets the pleasure and the poor wot gets the blame.

Under the alternative system for redistribution of wealth as offered by modern socialism of course, it's the rich wot gets the pleasure and the poor wot gets the blame.

Under the only other viable alternative of a Mugabe styled dictatorship, the rich don't get no pleasure and the poor don't live long enough to worry about anything as frivolous as broadband.

Cynical? Moi?

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :dogeye:

Oh well put B.

dugimodo
11-08-2007, 06:34 PM
I'm not really a huge Fan of Telecom'd BB service, mine is mediocre at best, and they could certainly do better, but I've got to say you guys live in a fantasy land.

Just because you want fibre doesn't make it magically feasible to install it in your house - even if it's running past there's nothing to connect it to at the other end - it's installed for backhaul as someone allready pointed out.

The Cable in the ground is far and away the biggest expense in building a network, which is the reason the old copper cables are being kept in use. Replacing them will take years and millions of dollars ( most probably billions ), and then suitable equipment nexts to be installed, equipment which is made obselete faster than you can install it.

No ones going to install a multi billion dollar network all in one go, and then give you cheap BB off it. not ever. Neither are they going to upgrade every few years just so you can have up to date services, they need to recover the cost of installing the network and make a reasonable return for their shareholders - it's just the way it is.
Unbundling will take forever to effect most people - the ISP's may put some equipment in the bigger exchanges to get at the most amount of customers for the least cost, but for the rest of us they are hardly going to build a whole new network for billions of dollars when they can just use telecom's and pay as they go.

Perhaps Telecom should never have been sold, a government department might conceivably have built a better network to keep the voters happy, but it was, Deal with it. Companies are always going to attempt to make a good profit - it's how business works.

And that's my rant for the day.

Digby
11-08-2007, 08:58 PM
OK,

So who would pay say $10 a month for either more speed or no data caps ?

I read are 400,000 bb users in NZ that is $ 50 million dollars a year. Surely that will buy a bit of fibre to the streets and whilst I accept they can't do the whole country in one day, but surely they need to start.

It seems the fibre cable will not be obsolete within a few decades so lets start !

The idea of my maths was just to show us all the sort of figures behind it. We cant keep asking for faster, bigger caps and cheaper !

Regards

Digby

winmacguy
11-08-2007, 09:00 PM
I know I would. The capacity of fibre is about 1000x-100,000x greater than copper the only limiting factor is the ability of the routers and network servers to switch the packets (and the cost to upgrade the servers) although this is where the ISP need to be heading if they are to keep up with the increased demand from users over the next 5-10 years.

mmmork
11-08-2007, 09:20 PM
For most ADSL users in NZ, we don't get anywhere near the capacity of existing lines because of back-office infrastructure issues. The current long bits of metal most of us use could be double or triple the speed. Mine's 3.5mbs max/128kb up, with a pathetic data cap - none of which has anything to do with not having fibre to my doorstep.

As pointed out earlier in the thread, Telecom still controls the pace of competition in the exchanges, and will do for years.

winmacguy
11-08-2007, 09:32 PM
Fortunately I don't think Telecom has any choice in the matter, as much as they wish they did.

mmmork
11-08-2007, 09:38 PM
They Do have a choice, that's my whole point :badpc:

winmacguy
11-08-2007, 10:12 PM
They Do have a choice, that's my whole point :badpc:

I meant in terms of holding things back. David Cunniliffe is opening them up with a crow bar whether they like it or not.
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chiefnz
11-08-2007, 10:34 PM
Whilst the BB service we receive currently is pathetic at best... however despite Telecom's profitablity (which is falling as the years tick by) it will most likely be 3 to 5 years before we have any sort of decent broadband network infrastructure. As previously stated it's not just a simple exercise of laying fibre... the switches etc need to be upgraded to handle the fibre connections as well not to mention the roadside cabinet hardware as well.

The sad truth is that because Telecom have taken so long to move into the next stage the whole upgrade process had now been pushed back as well.

Cheers