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Greg
02-08-2007, 11:13 AM
Just mildly curious about other people's views on our latest problem... After the recent problems I've had with the loo seat bolt replacement (solved, thanks Bunnings), door lock, and dishwasher, now we find a leak in the roof.

After looking in the ceiling we find a tile has cracked and after yesterday's rain storm we had water dripping through a light socket into the lounge.

Turns out the tile is one where Sky somewhat clumsily bolted their dish onto the roof.

I have a few options to get it sorted... Sky themselves, but I think they'd be hard to get to pay; insurance, who're sending out an assessor; or just seal the crack myself with selleys (which is probably the way I'll go).

The possible problem with getting it paid by insurance is that the dish was installed before we bought the house. One of Sky's men realigned the dish after we moved in, and he *may* have caused the damage then, which is the angle I'd take. But then there's the issue of the excess charge and loss of no-claims bonus.

I reckon I'll just get up there and put silicone in the crack.

What would you do?

Richard
02-08-2007, 11:20 AM
Replace the tile. Shouldn't be too hard.

SurferJoe46
02-08-2007, 11:30 AM
Not too sure how they build domiciles in NZ...but under that tile is some sort of water/vapor barrier and I suspect that just putting a replacement tile in place of a cracked or broken one is not gonna do what you think it is.

If indeed youse guys use things like tarpaper or plastic or sheepskins, that's where I'd check for water tight integrity first.

PaulD
02-08-2007, 11:47 AM
A lot of the tiled roof houses were built as State rentals in the 40's and 50's. These used a concrete tile without any vapour barrier. Spare tiles were usually left in only some of the houses.

Even without cracks these tiles are getting a bit thin these days and quite a few houses have a collection of icecream tubs or buckets in the roof.

Greg
02-08-2007, 12:00 PM
Replace the tile. Shouldn't be too hard.Huh? I'd love to know how to do that. What with all the other tiles overlapping it from above and the top one cemented to the peak whatever-you-call-it. Plus buy a new tile... one! lol

Joe... under the tiles is nothing - just the ceiling. Apparently it's supposed be like that to allow proper airflow.

The house is only three years old, and is watertight, apart from this damn cracked tile.

Image here (http://www.imagef1.net.nz/files/tile001.jpg).
[edit] And here (http://www.imagef1.net.nz/files/tile002.jpg).

pctek
02-08-2007, 12:01 PM
I reckon I'll just get up there and put silicone in the crack.


Bad idea.
Do it properly.

Have some friends here with the same situation. Every time they have some work done, new fireplace, etc tiles get broken. Because they're old and brittle.
They got a quote to replace the roof - $18,000.

Greg
02-08-2007, 12:05 PM
Bad idea.
Do it properly.

Have some friends here with the same situation. Every time they have some work done, new fireplace, etc tiles get broken. Because they're old and brittle.
They got a quote to replace the roof - $18,000.Replace the roof because of one broken tile? LOLOL Dunno what AMI will think of that idea! :lol:

Metla
02-08-2007, 12:10 PM
Just seal it.

Job done.

AvonBill
02-08-2007, 12:12 PM
Silicone now, then take your time investigating replacing the tile completely - may or may not be tricky.

Bantu
02-08-2007, 12:13 PM
Go around the new areas that are building houses. Choose a house that is getting same colour tiles as you have and ask the roof tiler for one, thats what i did a while back. They have a bit of wastage they don't miss one tile.

Metla
02-08-2007, 12:13 PM
After seeing the picture I would get it replaced (the tile not the entire roof), By a tradesman if required.

Poppa John
02-08-2007, 12:24 PM
Go around the new areas that are building houses. Choose a house that is getting same colour tiles as you have and ask the roof tiler for one, thats what i did a while back. They have a bit of wastage they don't miss one tile.

I agree. Ask one of them to replace the tile for you. Cost? A dozen beer. PJ

Metla...I was going to suggest you come over for a coffe, but it is pouring down. Sorry about that. PJ :lol:

Scouse
02-08-2007, 12:28 PM
Certainly not a lot of room for doubt as to the cause.

Metla
02-08-2007, 12:31 PM
Metla...I was going to suggest you come over for a coffe, but it is pouring down. Sorry about that. PJ :lol:

Trust me, You don't want the bug that has knocked me on my backside.

Richard
02-08-2007, 12:47 PM
Monier tiles, same as ours. If you have a new tile remove the broken one by ensuring it is not nailed/clipped from underneath, then lift the old tile out by raising the tile immediately above it, slide the new one in ( there is a step which locks under the adjacent tile when you lower it again). Make sure everything is straight and properly in position, and hey presto the job is done. Piece if the proverbial.

Poppa John
02-08-2007, 12:53 PM
Trust me, You don't want the bug that has knocked me on my backside.

OK PJ :eek:

Richard
02-08-2007, 12:57 PM
Your 'Yellow Pages' will tell you who sells Monier tiles and they will be happy to supply one for you. May even give it to you. They may even recommend someone to put it in for you. Drill a hole with a masonry bit, in the right place, for the sky brace, and fit a rubber seal under the bolt head just to be sure. Don't over tighten or you will need another tile!!!

Helplesss
02-08-2007, 01:07 PM
Monier tiles, same as ours. If you have a new tile remove the broken one by ensuring it is not nailed/clipped from underneath, then lift the old tile out by raising the tile immediately above it, slide the new one in ( there is a step which locks under the adjacent tile when you lower it again). Make sure everything is straight and properly in position, and hey presto the job is done. Piece if the proverbial.

You'll probably find that ever second tile is nailed down. Give the tile above the broken one an upwards wriggle to slide it up, tahat should expose the broken tile to be fixed. Simplest fix would be to silicone it, as the screw mount for your sky dish will always be a problem.

Greg
02-08-2007, 01:10 PM
Your 'Yellow Pages' will tell you who sells Monier tiles and they will be happy to supply one for you. May even give it to you. They may even recommend someone to put it in for you. Drill a hole with a masonry bit, in the right place, for the sky brace, and fit a rubber seal under the bolt head just to be sure. Don't over tighten or you will need another tile!!!I appreciate all the comments - thanks. But what I think what most don't appreciate is the multitude aspects of the problem:

1) cost
2) getting the replacement tile
3) removing the satellite dish
4) removing the tile
5) fitting the new tile
6) refitting the satellite dish
7) realigning the satellite dish

Even if I grew two more sets of arms and managed to remove the tile, and then found a replacement, and then got the dish removed, and using my new six arms to replace the tile, and managed to carefully drill a hole through the tile to refit the dish, and found someone to go into the ceiling to help with the refitting of the dish, I'd still need Sky to realign it, and they'd be pretty reluctant to do that for free, I guess.

I think the silicone idea rules.

PaulD
02-08-2007, 01:28 PM
Your 'Yellow Pages' will tell you who sells Monier tiles and they will be happy to supply one for you. May even give it to you. They may even recommend someone to put it in for you. Drill a hole with a masonry bit, in the right place, for the sky brace, and fit a rubber seal under the bolt head just to be sure. Don't over tighten or you will need another tile!!!

Is it a sign of the times that the leftover tiles aren't left on site? I was in a normal tile shop when they refused to take back some tiles from a tiler because as they said "somebody has paid for them and should get to keep them as spares".

The bracket bolt should tighten on a spacer sealed to the tile rather than the tile itself.

Billy T
02-08-2007, 01:29 PM
Silicone is fine if you choose the right grade for weather and UV exposure.

About 15 years ago I repaired several areas of rust perforation on my now 50 year old corrugated iron roof using adhesive-backed heavy aluminium tape. I rust killed first then put on the tape and painted over. I've checked at regular intervals ever since and there has been no deterioration. Quotes to replace the roof were not affordable at the time and I'm glad I didn't accept them.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

robbyp
02-08-2007, 05:22 PM
Huh? I'd love to know how to do that. What with all the other tiles overlapping it from above and the top one cemented to the peak whatever-you-call-it. Plus buy a new tile... one! lol

Joe... under the tiles is nothing - just the ceiling. Apparently it's supposed be like that to allow proper airflow.

The house is only three years old, and is watertight, apart from this damn cracked tile.

Image here (http://www.imagef1.net.nz/files/tile001.jpg).
[edit] And here (http://www.imagef1.net.nz/files/tile002.jpg).


Well who ever installed the tiles proabably breached the building code if they were installed recently, as it has to have building paper underneath the tiles. This prevents water getting inside (at least for a short period of time) if the tiles fail. Building paper is vapour permuable so will allow ait flow.

robbyp
02-08-2007, 05:25 PM
Well who ever installed the tiles proabably breached the building code if they were installed recently, as it has to have building paper underneath the tiles. This prevents water getting inside (at least for a short period of time) if the tiles fail. Building paper is vapour permuable so will allow ait flow.

Just had a look at your photo, and it clearly shows that the tile has cracked from the bolt used to attach the dish. Concrete tiles are very weak in tension, and they shouldn't be attached that way. I would get onto the person who installed it to fix the problem.

Greg
02-08-2007, 08:45 PM
Well who ever installed the tiles proabably breached the building code if they were installed recently, as it has to have building paper underneath the tiles. This prevents water getting inside (at least for a short period of time) if the tiles fail. Building paper is vapour permuable so will allow ait flow.That's a bit of a worry. We paid to have a professional inspection prior to purchasing the place.

PaulD
02-08-2007, 10:23 PM
Just had a look at your photo, and it clearly shows that the tile has cracked from the bolt used to attach the dish. Concrete tiles are very weak in tension, and they shouldn't be attached that way. I would get onto the person who installed it to fix the problem.

The tile would be in compression between the bracket and the batten (still bad).

The Building Code as at Nov 2006 doesn't require an underlay in all cases. Without access to the Standards mentioned it seems determined by roof pitch.

robbyp
02-08-2007, 11:17 PM
The tile would be in compression between the bracket and the batten (still bad).

The Building Code as at Nov 2006 doesn't require an underlay in all cases. Without access to the Standards mentioned it seems determined by roof pitch.

I was talking about the atual bolt hole, where if the person who installed the screw drilled a hole too small for the grub bold, when the grub bolt is screwed in it will crack the tile. Who knows if ti was actaully drilled all the way into the batten. This crack may not have been noticable until someone else went onto the roof and caused movement of the tile when they moved the dish

I would still want building paper underneath my tile, even if it wasn't required. Tiles have lots of gaps between the laps, so there is lots of potential for water entery if you get wind blowing the water in from a particular direction . I don't think you need building paper for low pitched membrane roofing, but I always specify building paper under roofing materials. I think it can also depend on councils, as some councils won't approve plans without building paper under the roof cladding.

Billy T
02-08-2007, 11:43 PM
This prevents water getting inside (at least for a short period of time) if the tiles fail. Building paper is vapour permuable so will allow ait flow. Is this for real? If it is vapour permeable then surely it will be moisture permeable as well, and vice-versa?

I thought building paper was intended to act as a moisture barrier and being impervious to water, that would also include water vapour. What do they make it out of these days? It used to be "tar paper" which was thick paper impregnated with a hydrocarbon based pitch but have they now gone hi-tech?

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :confused:

robbyp
02-08-2007, 11:55 PM
Is this for real? If it is vapour permeable then surely it will be moisture permeable as well, and vice-versa?

I thought building paper was intended to act as a moisture barrier and being impervious to water, that would also include water vapour. What do they make it out of these days? It used to be "tar paper" which was thick paper impregnated with a hydrocarbon based pitch but have they now gone hi-tech?

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :confused:


No building paper has always allowed moisture to exit the building. Building paper is to stop drafts and water in liquid form, such as water dripping, from entering the building. Otherwise you may as well use polythene as the barrier, but then you will get the building rotting from within, if moisture can't escape, which is why it isn't permitted.

Rob99
03-08-2007, 12:03 AM
I would get up there with some sealer, then get in contact with SKY as it is obviously their problem to fix.

george12
03-08-2007, 12:21 AM
Tell your insurance company that it was Sky's fault, and make sure they know this beyond any reasonable doubt.

You should be able to convince them to cover it, and they will go after Sky for the money. With any luck you won't lose your no claims bonus as they have someone to get the money off.

BobM
03-08-2007, 01:21 AM
Greg, re leak. Use Silastic Marine sealer. Have used this over the past fifteen years on antenna mounts on roofs. 100% seal in each case. Just clean surrounding area with white spirit & follow instructions. Problem solved !!

godfather
03-08-2007, 01:37 AM
I would seal it for now, but then send a pic to Sky with a polite request that they send a tradesman to replace the tile at Sky's expense.

As per Rob99 above.

It matters not if it was like it or not when you bought it, but since you had an inspection you are entitled to the belief it was exacerbated by the later Sky visit.

Greg
03-08-2007, 02:03 AM
Thankyou folks for the recent comments and suggestions. I'll report back.

BobM... by "white spirit" I assume you mean something like drycleaner fluid or turps?

rob_on_guitar
03-08-2007, 02:32 AM
Replace the tile. Shouldn't be too hard.

Yea, i just had a series of cracked tiles, sealents are only prolonging it, not actually fixing it.

SurferJoe46
03-08-2007, 06:56 AM
If there are soffit vents underside the eaves of the roof, they'd likely satisfy the ventilation of the sub-roof and keep moisture and condensation in check if not keep it from happening all together.

We have a product called TYVEK (http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek/en_US/index.html) in the US that is used as a sub-roof (http://www2.dupont.com/Tyvek_Construction/en_US/products/residential/products/atticwrap.html) and a moisture barrier in walls in new construction...it is very good...but also needs some sort of peak vents or dead air area cross-ventilation.

TYVEK ADVERT HERE:


Channels moisture vapor

Moisture vapor passes safely through DuPont™ Tyvek® AtticWrap™, so vapor that enters the attic from the living space can diffuse through the breathable membrane into vented air channels to prevent the formation of damaging mold, mildew and wood rot in the attic.

Acts as a secondary weather barrier

DuPont™ Tyvek® AtticWrap™ collects leaking water and channels it to the eaves where it can safely drain outside the building. In severe weather areas where wind-driven rain can penetrate the attic through the soffits, DuPont™ Tyvek® AtticWrap™ blocks water infiltration into the building and allows it to drain safely outside the house.

Basically if the tiles are gapped or not totally sealed, there is going to be admission of rain or snow under conditions that vary with the pitch, wind values and the general material used for the exterior surface of the roof.

Lesser or lower pitches NEED better water incursion protection as the sheeting and drainage off a higher peaked roof will increase the velocity of the runoff and keep the time in contact with the roof from rain or snow to a minimum. Flatter or lower peaks require more security from better subroof materials, if not also better shingles/tiles or sheetgoods.

Article 24 of the US Building codes indicate that you MUST have water incursion protection, and as there is condensate damage or moisture that collects in a building, it most likely will be coming from an outside source.

BUT..here's the big but here...humans also respire and give off large quantities of exhaled moisture too..and that has to be removed from the building.

Some homes with minimal heating and/or poor or insufficient insulation get locked down tighter and tighter by the occupants, exacerbating the moisture build-up until they have moisture running down the interior walls.

Generally, it is advised to use a 2-5% admix heating/cooling system that allows some refreshment of the interior air (to combat "sick building syndrome) and keep moisture content to a regulated amount.

Also, another problem arises here.

If the walls/ceiling etc are so badly insulated, in cold weather the heat loss is of course higher in both directions and will show up as human exhaust condensing on the walls or under the roof/ceiling. That indicates a problem with the original construction and should be investigated.

Of course, all this is US codes, and may not apply to NZ standards...but as a for-instance, they make pretty good sense. Common sense dictates that the laws of thermodynamics and moisture co-admissibility are prolly the same in your hemisphere.

BobM
03-08-2007, 09:03 PM
Thankyou folks for the recent comments and suggestions. I'll report back.

BobM... by "white spirit" I assume you mean something like drycleaner fluid or turps? Yes, drycleaner fluid, much the same stuff. Don't use turps,petrol,kerosene - they leave a oily film, which you don't want.

Thomas01
04-08-2007, 05:59 PM
Just had a look at the photos. Not as bad as I expected. But I can understand your reluctance to strip everything and replace the tile. A skilled job really and the new tile may not match. I don't like sealants and reckon they are the primary reason for leaking houses. Nothing like a good (lead) damp proof course.
I would be more inclined to tackle the job in several ways if failing to get Sky or the insurance company involved. Firstly forget sealants and use Araldite - I have 30 year old repairs still good today with Araldite. Then a tape over the repair and painted over - oil based varnish or similar - even RAW linseed oil.
Tom

Greg
05-08-2007, 01:58 AM
Just had a look at the photos. Not as bad as I expected.It's bad enough. From inside the roof you can see daylight (http://www.imagef1.net.nz/files/tile003.jpg)! :eek:

SurferJoe46
05-08-2007, 03:29 AM
Wow..no undersheeting at all!

Not good.

The ROSSCRETE (http://www.reroofing.co.nz/concrete_colours.htm) product is a local NZ company too..they will likely have any amount that you need...maybe even a few "blems" or seconds for free.

But I am still amazed that you can actually see the undersides of the tiles. That's gotta hurt your R-level for insulation, badly!

We see their products here in the US all the time, and I have put a few courses up myself on a restoration..but ALWAYS over roll-goods as a water barrier, (over open truss construction they need full ¾-inch sheeting of plywood or particle board to be installed legally here where the gaps are at/under 24 inches on centers).

If you actually had all the tiles removed, you should not be able to see daylight anywhere. :cool: That's just good construction.

Great product though..some last as long as 40 or 50 years and still look good.

They are at:

7 The Furlong
Takanini
Auckland
New Zealand

Phone:

PHONE: 64-9-299-9210
FAX: 64-9- 299-7810

Greg
05-08-2007, 04:31 AM
But I am still amazed that you can actually see the undersides of the tiles. That's gotta hurt your R-level for insulation, badly!Not sure that it makes any difference here. The upperside of the ceiling is covered in a layer of batts, so there is insulation. The house is generally warm enough in mid-winter (like right now) with minimal heating, and the under-roof area is free of moisture, mould or mildew.

SurferJoe46
05-08-2007, 04:54 AM
Not sure that it makes any difference here. The upperside of the ceiling is covered in a layer of batts, so there is insulation. The house is generally warm enough in mid-winter (like right now) with minimal heating, and the under-roof area is free of moisture, mould or mildew.

Not really...the zone between the ceiling and the roof, commonly a semi-dead air space called an attic is the best insulation you can get. If the moisture is successfully blocked at the (exterior or upper layer) of the ceiling, then there's little or no moisture containment to contend with in the attic zone.

What we do is insulate the ceiling with about R-16 or better, and then insulate the roof with the same amount of R-value. The combined R-value is 'way over R-32 with the semi-dead zone calculated in to the equation.

Some new code allowances for R-factor include the values of the tiles themselves.

We allow about a 3-5% air change via soffet vents or wind turbines in hotter/drier climes. Some use thermal sensored eves fans for keeping the heat soak to a minimum..but that may not be your situation.

In cooler/wetter areas, we have peak vents and/or soffet vents to keep the moisture flowing out of the attic and things stay dry.

I imagine that if you DO have a drainage capacity for the collected moisture, that just having good ceiling insulation and waterproofing is sufficient...but you need to think of a home as a giant inverted funnel, taking rain, moisture, snow etc AWAY from the home itself.

Letting it collect and grow mold is not a good idea under any circumstances.

Richard
09-08-2007, 11:32 AM
Greg, How did you get on with repairing or replacing the damaged tile? Did Sky TV come to the party in helping you?

Greg
09-08-2007, 12:44 PM
Haven't spoken to Sky yet. And have been a bit slack in getting the claim to the insurers. But meanwhile I have sealed the crack, and that's probably as good as it'll get. I'll report back after the insurer assesses it and when I've eventually spoken to Sky.

tweak'e
09-08-2007, 01:38 PM
hi greg.

sorry i didn't see your post before.

simply ring SKY. it is an installer fault. they have used an iron roof mount on a tile roof.
years ago there was a scrap between contractors and sky due to sky wanting dishes installed even tho there was no proper tile mount available.
even fitting packers through the tile wasn't very good as the packers simply sunk into the soft timber. also with the leverage effect the screws could get ripped out easy enough, especially as no installers actually abide by skys rules and screwed them into structural timber ie the beams.

i'm not sure if they even make a proper tile mount yet.

so basically its a SKY problem and repairs will be at no cost to you.

Greg
09-08-2007, 02:03 PM
Ta Tweak. I took your (and others) advice and called them a minute ago. They said they'll get someone from the local branch to get back to me. We'll see.

Murray P
09-08-2007, 02:05 PM
Greg, have you bunged some sealant on the crack? It's only ever going to be a temporary measure, no matter what anyone says about sealants.

The cost of not repairing the the tile correctly by replacing it, is potentially far higher than the cost of doing the, minor, work involved. It should not be a hard or expensive exercise.

The F***wit who installed the aerial should be slapped hard around the ears and the follow up F***wit who adjusted the aerial should get a kick in the nuts for his services. There is no way a concrete or clay tile can withstand the forces exerted on it by an aerial mounting without support to the underside or better still a sleeve to take the load and allow proper weathertight measures. Plus the muppet who drilled the cable through the tile failed to provide a drip loop

As to recourse. Essentially, you are quite entitled to make a claim under the WHRS Act 2006. It's not for me to say whether it is an eligible claim, but if it leaks and the house is within the 10 limitation and damage has been caused as a consequence of the leak, then it's odds on it's eligible. What constitutes damage can be very minor, staining on a construction material for e.g. It's quite possible that in the event a claim was made and accepted, that the pre-purchase inspector would be pulled in as a party along with Sky and their installers. As with most litigation, scatter guns are more often used than a microscope. With the very minor amount of money riding on it, all concerned would be fools not to roll over and settle ASAP.


With regard to having no roofing underlay (and yes Billy, it does allow vapour transmission, but the amount transmission is specified and I can't be bothered going in to the whys and wherefores at the mo), it's pretty silly not to use an underlay regardless of what the regs said at the time. The July 2005 amendment to E2 AS/1 2004 of the building code acceptable solutions says you can do without a roofing underlay under type I tiles (yours Greg) if the pitch is under 20 deg, has no discharge from a spreader and, the roof pitch is increased by 1 deg for every 0.5 metre of rafter span over 4.5 metres. (I'd have to delve in to check if the specific clause was in place in the 2004 version, otherwise we're looking at the 2001 amendment which is 17 deg but not at all in avery high wind zone).

Get it fixed. You can sort out who you want to nail for it later. But, I would suggest that, at the mention of the WHRS Act and WSG (Weathertight Services Group), anyone remotely involved in construction and with such a piffling amount involved, will be around their either fixing it or giving you money in the blink of an eye.


Edit: How does the builder/developer feel about this and the other "maintenance" issues you've had?

Edit # 2: Just saw Tweake's post. On ya.

Greg
09-08-2007, 03:14 PM
Wow Murray - that's a ton of information! :eek:

Thanks.

As for:
How does the builder/developer feel about this and the other "maintenance" issues you've had? You haven't heard it all... last week we looked at getting a solar heating panel installed, and the rep advised us that our hot water system was missing three gadgets, one of which is required by legislation. And then while up in the roof I find that there're no batts above the garage area. *groan*

I haven't spoken to the builder/seller yet, but will do sooner or later. I just ain't in the confrontational mode at the moment.

:(

SurferJoe46
09-08-2007, 06:30 PM
Wow Murray - that's a ton of information! :eek:

Thanks.

As for: You haven't heard it all... last week we looked at getting a solar heating panel installed, and the rep advised us that our hot water system was missing three gadgets, one of which is required by legislation. And then while up in the roof I find that there're no batts above the garage area. *groan*

I haven't spoken to the builder/seller yet, but will do sooner or later. I just ain't in the confrontational mode at the moment.

:(

This is a touchy point in the US...

The garage is NOT usually a living space unless the interior walls are finished...but I know there's a percentile value to the "finish" that's required.

If there's a toilet, sink, electrical receptical and a refrigerator in the garage, then the roof has to have equivalent R-values as the house or main domicile.

Drainage and moisture control would also be the same.

We call them "granny flats" here in the US..and some districts have very strict rules that may or may not be enforced, according to the age of the conversion to a place for human to live, and the surrounding areas, and the homes in the areas if they have like accommodations too.

But..if I had a home recently built I'd insist on complete insulation and consideration that every roof and wall be brought to domicile values.

Right now, it's a very powerful buyers' market here in the US...new, unsold homes are sitting vacant and waiting for a buyer...therefor conditions may not be the same in Upsidedown Land.

tweak'e
09-08-2007, 08:29 PM
[QUOTE=Greg;580100 And then while up in the roof I find that there're no batts above the garage area. *groan*
[/QUOTE]

normall.

you don't live in the garage so its not needed to be insulated. the inside of the house is insulated by the door to the garage and the insulation above.

Murray P
10-08-2007, 12:42 AM
Wow Murray - that's a ton of information! :eek:

Thanks.

As for: You haven't heard it all... last week we looked at getting a solar heating panel installed, and the rep advised us that our hot water system was missing three gadgets, one of which is required by legislation. And then while up in the roof I find that there're no batts above the garage area. *groan*

I haven't spoken to the builder/seller yet, but will do sooner or later. I just ain't in the confrontational mode at the moment.

:(


Hold off on talking to the builder/seller for the mo.

If insulation is installed between the garage and main house and those walls are lined, i.e. in the walls that separate the habitable space from the uninhabitable space, then it complies with the building code as far as energy efficiency is concerned (it actually saves the cost of heating the garage). If not, then it doesn't and both the builder and local consent authority (probably your council) are in breach of the code, the council for negligence in discharging their duty and the builder for whatever you can nail him for (both under the Building Act, both tortious).

In every other respect, the garage, if otherwise integrated with the house, has to comply with such things as external moisture, internal moisture structure, durability, etc, etc.
Same applies to the missing plumbing components, except that the plumber can be included to the two above, but you'd not usually go directly to the plumber if your contract was with the builder, developer or some other party (The builder/developer/trades-person/designer + consent authority and dog, still has a duty of care to you, even though he may not have built the house for you. That's to do with the ten year liability/long stop under the act, you see and is not specific to contract which is another matter entirely. Also, labour only contracts or contribution by an owner/buyer is a different matter, but one that could see the owner/buyer liable along with the aforementioned parties. For those thinking of building in the future, be sure what your obligations and legal liabilities are for the various forms of contract, you could be classified as a developer and therefore carry a liability for the construction for ten years, regardless of whether you continue to own it. In fact, in theory that liability can stretch to 16 years, but I won't go in to that here [tradespeople, I bet 16 years is joyous news to you]).

The construction industry is a lot of fun, have no doubt about that. :thumbs:


Disclaimer:

All the above information, real, implied or otherwise and anything else I have ever written on this website, is most probably bull-merde and cannot in any way be relied on. All except for this: Get your own independent expert advice. :cool:

SurferJoe46
10-08-2007, 06:46 AM
Interesting..that 16 year part.

Here in the US..there is a lifetime warrantee on code violations and failure to comply with chapters of the Professional Builder's Code of Ethics if they have left something out of a home or failed to adhere to standards in place at the time of sign-off by inspectors.

That means if you discover in 40 years that they left out insulation or sealers for example, you can invoke the builder's bond or insurance to repair/replace what's missing when you discover it.

There is a discovery limit however. AFTER you discover a fault or omission, you have a year and a day to get it filed for the claim to be valid.

I have seen a fire that caused the walls to be opened by the fire department where they found that fireblocks were missing between the studs and the owner had the original builder replace ALL the walls and subfloors upon that discovery..which, by the way also repaired all the fire damage too..so the insurance company was very happy to not have to pay for the loss except for some furniture and personal effects.

martynz
10-08-2007, 09:20 AM
So what if there is no record of the original builder, or he's no longer in business or you can't track him down?

Martynz

Greg
10-08-2007, 11:33 AM
Happy resolutions!

And unbelievable great service from Sky.

After taking several persons' advice I called Sky yesterday and told them about the problem. Lo and behold, a technician pitched up this morning, replaced the tile with one from a 'safe' part of the roof, and will be back this afternoon with a spare to replace the one he borrowed.

Not only that - he noticed some hairline fractures in a few other tiles, which he sealed with silicone.

Amazing service!

SurferJoe46
10-08-2007, 01:13 PM
So what if there is no record of the original builder, or he's no longer in business or you can't track him down?

Martynz

That's what the escrowed bonds are for...I think they are held in escrow for 50 years or so.....then there's always product liability laws that can go after builders still in business...even though they might be moved to another state, where it then becomes a federal enforcement situation.

rob_on_guitar
10-08-2007, 01:16 PM
Happy resolutions!

And unbelievable great service from Sky.

After taking several persons' advice I called Sky yesterday and told them about the problem. Lo and behold, a technician pitched up this morning, replaced the tile with one from a 'safe' part of the roof, and will be back this afternoon with a spare to replace the one he borrowed.

Not only that - he noticed some hairline fractures in a few other tiles, which he sealed with silicone.

Amazing service!

Did you record this rare moment?:lol:

Greg
10-08-2007, 01:26 PM
Did you record this rare moment?:lol:hehe. Nah, but the evidence is that the rain isn't coming through the ceiling anymore. No, wait... it isn't raining. :rolleyes:

tweak'e
10-08-2007, 01:28 PM
Happy resolutions!

And unbelievable great service from Sky.

After taking several persons' advice I called Sky yesterday and told them about the problem. Lo and behold, a technician pitched up this morning, replaced the tile with one from a 'safe' part of the roof, and will be back this afternoon with a spare to replace the one he borrowed.

Not only that - he noticed some hairline fractures in a few other tiles, which he sealed with silicone.

Amazing service!

but did he or will they fix the cause of the problem ie the incorrectly mounted mount ??

if it dosn't get fixed it will only break tiles again.

Greg
10-08-2007, 03:06 PM
but did he or will they fix the cause of the problem ie the incorrectly mounted mount ??

if it dosn't get fixed it will only break tiles again.Who knows - not me. I'm just pleased the immediate problem is fixed, and I suppose if it breaks again then they'll be good enough to return and re-fix the problem. I'm not complaining. :)

Richard
10-08-2007, 04:25 PM
Great outcome! I'm pleased your problem has been resolved.
Cheers