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allblack
26-07-2007, 10:31 AM
Hi all.

Comments please.

Had new tyres and wheel alignment done on my '96 Prado yesterday at Beaurepairs at Kaiwhara (sp?)

Dropped car off and went for a wander for an hour. Came back and wheels being put back on. Car driven out and told "all done".

What about alignment??

Guy said all done. Their new machine allows them to do the wheel alignment at the beginning, not end.

Had run out of ciggies an hour earlier, so didn't discuss with him. Jumped in wagon and headed to buy a pack!

But hang on? If an alignment is done PRIOR to the wheels being removed, won't it be out of alignment when the wheels are put back on with the new rubber??

Any knowledgeable people here care to comment? If Beaurepairs are correct, can someone please explain why the alignment won't be buggered by removing wheels post-alignment?

Cheers all.

tweak'e
26-07-2007, 10:54 AM
good question....surfer joe ! !! ;)

not the best thing to do the alignment on the old tires before fitting the new ones, especially with 4x4's. you can get the general alignment right but as new tires sit on the road differently.........

vinref
26-07-2007, 11:03 AM
Hi all.

Comments please.

Had new tyres and wheel alignment done on my '96 Prado yesterday at Beaurepairs at Kaiwhara (sp?)

Dropped car off and went for a wander for an hour. Came back and wheels being put back on. Car driven out and told "all done".

What about alignment??

Guy said all done. Their new machine allows them to do the wheel alignment at the beginning, not end.

Had run out of ciggies an hour earlier, so didn't discuss with him. Jumped in wagon and headed to buy a pack!

But hang on? If an alignment is done PRIOR to the wheels being removed, won't it be out of alignment when the wheels are put back on with the new rubber??

Any knowledgeable people here care to comment? If Beaurepairs are correct, can someone please explain why the alignment won't be buggered by removing wheels post-alignment?

Cheers all.

You may be confusing wheel alignment with wheel balancing.

Wheel alignment can be done with the wheels on. The angles (caster, camber, toe, etc) are adjusted so the wheels point in the right place. This is fairly easy if you have the right tools.

A wheel balance is to balance the tyre on the rim. You have to take the wheel off to do this.

AvonBill
26-07-2007, 11:05 AM
From my very basic knowledge I believe it isn't really wheel alignment so much as steering alignment (toe-in toe-out and all that). So the alignment is basically unaffected by the actual tyre on the wheel. Balancing of the tyre on the wheel should always be done. Alignment is required less often or after you have stuffed it by hitting something.

sam m
26-07-2007, 11:56 AM
Unless he did the wheel alignment with his eyecrometer they should have supplied you with a print out of what was done with a whole lot of technical mumbo jumbo.

pctek
26-07-2007, 12:04 PM
So, did you test the alignment?

I've heard all sorts of stories about Beaurepaires, and they charge a lot too for such crap service.

SurferJoe46
26-07-2007, 01:08 PM
OK..here I am

Wheel alignment is possible in a very short time if they have the newer racks with the computer system. Some shops do a "peanut butter" alignment where they drive the vehicle onto the rack and leave it there for a while and just drive it off again. The customer will never know for sure if they did anything or not.

It doesn't matter if the tires are bald, bent or even missing..well, maybe not missing....for an alignment to be done on the newest systems. The machine compensates for any irregularity it discovers and will make adjustments accordingly.

The old days of comparing the alignment with using the tire carcass for the measurements are all gone now.

Your vehicle is front and rear alignable..so it should be done with what we call a "thrust-angle" or "drive-angle" alignment.

Balancing is an absolute must for any tire...and it doesn't matter if the alignment is right or not. A tire out of balance will set up a vibration usually at about 49-52 mph for a 15", 44-48mph for a 14 incher, and around 39-42 for a 13 inch tire. Those are just guidelines, but indicative anyway.

Alignment includes KPA or kingpin angle, and is a throwback to days when vehicles actually had kingpins. It is the straight line drawn thru the ball joints (if there is an upper and a lower ball joint) and the angle that line generates when the wheels are turned from full left to full right.

The caster if figured by the extension of the KPA where it intersects the driving surface (road) and that point is measured from there to the center of the tire tread where it rests on the road. It should be slightly negative to cause the wheels to return to center when you let go of the steering wheel and the vehicle is in motion. On a 14 inch tire, we usually see about a 1.5 inch to a 2.0 inch value.

The camber is the angle that is generated by the inclination of the wheel from a flat flanged area to the flat ground and the angle is expressed in degrees.

Most vehicles require approx. the following numbers as a general example:

Caster = .5 to 1.75, but we usually spot this in inches rather than degrees.

Camber = about -.5- to +1.0 for a rear wheel driven vehicle, add about +.5 for front wheel drive.

Toe is usually decided upon by the placement of the cross shaft or the tie rod. It is always in inches or hexa-deca-mega-kilo-meters if you are metricated.

If it is BEFORE the kingpin or ball joints (also the strut mount in those type systems) then you set it at about .5 out, and if the tie rod is BEHIND the kingpin etc, then you set it at .5 in. The thrust of the drive against the steering is what determines the amount of toe, either negative of positive.

This of course requires good physical conditions on the hardware of the tie rod ends, pitman arm and idler arms, if it is so designed. Unbelievably, alignment can be done with very bad ball joints as they "rest" in a static position and the adjustments can be made while they are at rest. If you have McPherson struts, then you must have good mast bearings and a decent physical condition of the strut...but not in matters of shock absorption. That is a whole different bird.

Normally the toe is set about 1/8th inch to 3/16th inches toe in. Some facilities add a little toe out toward the crown of the road (the center of the road) to help keep the car climbing up to the center of the road and away from the curb or gutter side.

Unless you have the alignment seriously out of whack, you'll not notice any problems with pull or thumping of the tires. The tires will WEAR out very prematurely though for an alignment issue. Tires that sing or squeal just driving straight ahead likely have the toe out of adjustment by a LOT!.

Toe is the worst offender of tire wear, followed by caster. Camber is usually not too much of a problem and if it was out far enough to cause untoward tire wear, you'd be more than able to see it with the naked eye.

Any thumping at a certain speed is almost always a balance problem, not alignment.

A tire that is out of round or defective is another story all together.

It will wobble at slow speeds or cause a hop or shimmy to the car like on a smooth surface. Many times a tire is delaminating itself because it has been rotated into the wrong rotational condition. Radials are more than likely to do this if they are on the verge of falling apart and have been rotated as the tire shops want you to.

Tire rotation is a rip-off. If you have a tire wear problem it is almost always a mechanical cause and then you should repair the reason for the problem and leave the tire where it is.

A bad wear pattern will not drive out of a tire and moving it without making the repair will just ruin the next tire put in that position.

If you rotate all the time, you just need to replace four tires all at the same time. That's good for the tire merchants..bad for you.

With the possible damage to a tire from rotating it and the rapid wear that happens when you put a tire into a different work description, you;ll also wear them out faster. ..it's not worth the expense of the rotation that way.

allblack
26-07-2007, 01:50 PM
You may be confusing wheel alignment with wheel balancing.

Wheel alignment can be done with the wheels on. The angles (caster, camber, toe, etc) are adjusted so the wheels point in the right place. This is fairly easy if you have the right tools.

A wheel balance is to balance the tyre on the rim. You have to take the wheel off to do this.

Nope......I watched them balance the wheels. Was curious when I saw a six year-old boy working on my car! :cool:

Graham L
26-07-2007, 01:54 PM
They have to have a six-year old to drive the computer. Adults can't understand the software.

allblack
26-07-2007, 01:55 PM
Unless he did the wheel alignment with his eyecrometer they should have supplied you with a print out of what was done with a whole lot of technical mumbo jumbo.

This is true.....something else I forgot in my haste to:

Get some nicotine into my lungs, and Hit the road to go see my lady.

allblack
26-07-2007, 02:01 PM
So, did you test the alignment?

I've heard all sorts of stories about Beaurepaires, and they charge a lot too for such crap service.

Test? Guess so. Car feels no better or worse to drive.

I've always avoided B/R before for that reason. This is the first time I've used them.

Got numerous quotes, and this particular store gave me a good price, AND were the only one with the tyres in stock. That coupled with the FlyBuys meant they got the business.

allblack
26-07-2007, 02:06 PM
OK..here I am

Wheel alignment is possible in a very short time if they have the newer racks with the computer system. Some shops do a "peanut butter" alignment where they drive the vehicle onto the rack and leave it there for a while and just drive it off again. The customer will never know for sure if they did anything or not.

It doesn't matter if the tires are bald, bent or even missing..well, maybe not missing....for an alignment to be done on the newest systems. The machine compensates for any irregularity it discovers and will make adjustments accordingly.

The old days of comparing the alignment with using the tire carcass for the measurements are all gone now.

Your vehicle is front and rear alignable..so it should be done with what we call a "thrust-angle" or "drive-angle" alignment.

Balancing is an absolute must for any tire...and it doesn't matter if the alignment is right or not. A tire out of balance will set up a vibration usually at about 49-52 mph for a 15", 44-48mph for a 14 incher, and around 39-42 for a 13 inch tire. Those are just guidelines, but indicative anyway.

Alignment includes KPA or kingpin angle, and is a throwback to days when vehicles actually had kingpins. It is the straight line drawn thru the ball joints (if there is an upper and a lower ball joint) and the angle that line generates when the wheels are turned from full left to full right.

The caster if figured by the extension of the KPA where it intersects the driving surface (road) and that point is measured from there to the center of the tire tread where it rests on the road. It should be slightly negative to cause the wheels to return to center when you let go of the steering wheel and the vehicle is in motion. On a 14 inch tire, we usually see about a 1.5 inch to a 2.0 inch value.

The camber is the angle that is generated by the inclination of the wheel from a flat flanged area to the flat ground and the angle is expressed in degrees.

Most vehicles require approx. the following numbers as a general example:

Caster = .5 to 1.75, but we usually spot this in inches rather than degrees.

Camber = about -.5- to +1.0 for a rear wheel driven vehicle, add about +.5 for front wheel drive.

Toe is usually decided upon by the placement of the cross shaft or the tie rod. It is always in inches or hexa-deca-mega-kilo-meters if you are metricated.

If it is BEFORE the kingpin or ball joints (also the strut mount in those type systems) then you set it at about .5 out, and if the tie rod is BEHIND the kingpin etc, then you set it at .5 in. The thrust of the drive against the steering is what determines the amount of toe, either negative of positive.

This of course requires good physical conditions on the hardware of the tie rod ends, pitman arm and idler arms, if it is so designed. Unbelievably, alignment can be done with very bad ball joints as they "rest" in a static position and the adjustments can be made while they are at rest. If you have McPherson struts, then you must have good mast bearings and a decent physical condition of the strut...but not in matters of shock absorption. That is a whole different bird.

Normally the toe is set about 1/8th inch to 3/16th inches toe in. Some facilities add a little toe out toward the crown of the road (the center of the road) to help keep the car climbing up to the center of the road and away from the curb or gutter side.

Unless you have the alignment seriously out of whack, you'll not notice any problems with pull or thumping of the tires. The tires will WEAR out very prematurely though for an alignment issue. Tires that sing or squeal just driving straight ahead likely have the toe out of adjustment by a LOT!.

Toe is the worst offender of tire wear, followed by caster. Camber is usually not too much of a problem and if it was out far enough to cause untoward tire wear, you'd be more than able to see it with the naked eye.

Any thumping at a certain speed is almost always a balance problem, not alignment.

A tire that is out of round or defective is another story all together.

It will wobble at slow speeds or cause a hop or shimmy to the car like on a smooth surface. Many times a tire is delaminating itself because it has been rotated into the wrong rotational condition. Radials are more than likely to do this if they are on the verge of falling apart and have been rotated as the tire shops want you to.

Tire rotation is a rip-off. If you have a tire wear problem it is almost always a mechanical cause and then you should repair the reason for the problem and leave the tire where it is.

A bad wear pattern will not drive out of a tire and moving it without making the repair will just ruin the next tire put in that position.

If you rotate all the time, you just need to replace four tires all at the same time. That's good for the tire merchants..bad for you.

With the possible damage to a tire from rotating it and the rapid wear that happens when you put a tire into a different work description, you;ll also wear them out faster. ..it's not worth the expense of the rotation that way.


Ummm...thanks SJ. Informative and waaay-over-the-top as usual! :D

But did I miss you answering the question? Can they do the alignment BEFORE removing the wheels to change the rubber?

Every car I've had new tyres on the alignment has always been done after the new rubber is put on...

pctek
26-07-2007, 02:47 PM
Test? Guess so. Car feels no better or worse to drive.


Point it straight ahead while driving. Preferably not in heavy traffic or on the highway.

Let go of the wheel.
Does it veer to the left or right?

It shouldn't.

tweak'e
26-07-2007, 03:03 PM
OK..here I am

...... always a pleasure :)

when the guys do my vehicles alignment they leave the tires on (the lazer/light units clip onto the rims) and the front tires sit on a pair of moving plates so they can move the wheels while still having full pressure on the suspension system.

if they took the tires off to do an alignment then there would be no pressure on the suspension and all the angles would be all over the show. eg you would be trying to set the angles while the suspension is at full height rather than halfway down as it would be when your driving.

sam m
26-07-2007, 03:06 PM
it's tyres

wratterus
26-07-2007, 03:11 PM
it's tyres

:lol: :lol: who wanted to create that poll on who has the wrost speeling? :p

sam m
26-07-2007, 03:32 PM
Not a spelling mistake, just spelling choices. :cool:

allblack
26-07-2007, 04:12 PM
Point it straight ahead while driving. Preferably not in heavy traffic or on the highway.

Let go of the wheel.
Does it veer to the left or right?

It shouldn't.

It doesn't. But then it didn't before.

All seems good, so I'm not complaining. Just wondering about the veracity of his claim....

FoxyMX
26-07-2007, 05:18 PM
All seems good, so I'm not complaining. Just wondering about the veracity of his claim....

You must be a Target junkie too then. :D

SurferJoe46
26-07-2007, 06:21 PM
Ummm...thanks SJ. Informative and waaay-over-the-top as usual! :D

But did I miss you answering the question? Can they do the alignment BEFORE removing the wheels/whielz to change the rubber?

Every car I've had new tyres on the alignment has always been done after the new rubber is put on...

I know..ask me what time it is and I'll tell you how to build a watch...ahem!

Yes..they can align with old, new or a mixed bag of tires/tyres on the vehicle...the machine doesn't use the tires/tyres for reference anyway...just the rims/ryms. But get this part.....


Even if the rims/ryms are out of round (within limits) the machine will find it and compute the amount of the run-out into the computation for the correct alignment.

Truthfully..the best alignment is with the driver in the seat, 1/2 tank of fuel/petrol and the engine running to remove pressure from the dynamics on the tires/tyres at rest...but that's 'way over the top too.

Tire/tyre pressures/presyurz were important in the old/olde days too..but not so much any more. If the tire's/tyre's got SOME air/ayre and it isn't actually flat, there are compensations that can be made.

4WDs are just as touchy as two-wheelers/wheelerz for alignment...they just offer a different set of values to compensate for the 90%/10% driving characteristics of the vehicle. The manufacturers figger that you will use all four only about 10% of the time and they design the suspension and specs accordingly.

miknz
26-07-2007, 09:58 PM
Ummm...thanks SJ. Informative and waaay-over-the-top as usual! :D

But did I miss you answering the question? Can they do the alignment BEFORE removing the wheels to change the rubber?

Every car I've had new tyres on the alignment has always been done after the new rubber is put on...

I run a tyre/align store.

1. yes they can do the alignment before but best results are always on new tyres.

2. If they only had it for an hour chances are fairly slim that they did a proper alignment although there are machines around now that use cameras instead of bolt on sensors and can be set up and readings taken in just 2-3 mins, if they had one of these machines then I would find it easier to believe that an alignment was done.

3. Have a look under your vehicle at the tie rod ends and see if there are any spanner marks on them, easy way to tell if any adjustment has been made, asuming of course it needed adjusting.

4. They should have given you a print out, go back and ask for it, it will be stored on there alignment computer, if they dont have it on there system ask for a refund and dont go back.

Will be interested to hear how you get on, I have found that generally the big chains have monkeys running there alignment machines, try going to a specialist independant tyre store(like mine, but I am in the wrong island for you) better service, more motivated to get you back again next time etc etc

:D mik

SurferJoe46
27-07-2007, 03:44 AM
If the machine looked anything like this (http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/alignmentsystems/4883T/index.htm) (the last machine I used before I retired), then you probably got a fair test or alignment.

Even a semi-trained Rhesus monkey can work this machine.

Chances of making an incorrect adjustment are nil as you have to get everything in the "GREEN" to get a decent report from the computer. Anything less that right-on gets a yellow or red readout and if you see the readout, you'll know.

Just make sure that the vehicle you brought in is on the readout too..the specs are all loaded into the data base and the report must have the correct vehicle to make it correct.

So you can see that the alignment here is not related to the tires/tyres...just the rims and the compensation in the data base for the machine.

In the olde days, we used a camber bubble, swivel plates, chalk, a string and a yardstick to align vehicles. It was accurate enough, but it was very time-consuming and not monetarily fruitful to the tech. I actually hated to see a customer ask for an alignment in those days...too much work for minimal results I thought.

But, yeah....look for wrench marks on the tie rods and undercar steering parts..if it DID need more than the peanutbutter check I mentioned.

I knew shops that didn't perform an alignment but made some marks on the sleeves and locknuts to fake the customer...so that too may not be a good indicator. Mostly these fraudsters worked in the big name facilities...the ones that advertise the heaviest and in full-page ads in the papers.

Go to a mom-n-pop shop..they want to be a good place for thieir customers...after all they can't rely upon a corporation to support them when things get slow or the lawsuits pile up too high.

Big bad names here in the STATES:

Big-O Tires
Sears
Firestone Tires Center
4-Day Tires
K-Mart Auto
Wal-Mart Auto Service
Midas
Goodyear Tire

See? Big names = poor service..the attorneys general of various states here have stacks of suits concerning them all the time and they get banned from advertising for a year or so as a condition of the fines/penalties but they never close them down.

Right now we don't see AAMCO transmission shops in the papers or on tv..they have been banned from advertising. They did something bad again...like every time they open their doors.

I don't personally know Miknz, but if he's been in business for longer than a few years and is still running, then I suggest checking his place out. If he's a survivor in a very competitive business and has a decent customer base, then he's very likely a very good shop to use. What he said is the truth..that's a good point. He and I may have personal points that aren't resolvable, but this is just about good business and getting what you need.

allblack
27-07-2007, 11:32 AM
You must be a Target junkie too then. :D

Huh? No. Not really. Watched it once or twice.

allblack
27-07-2007, 11:41 AM
I know..ask me what time it is and I'll tell you how to build a watch...ahem!

Yes..they can align with old, new or a mixed bag of tires/tyres on the vehicle...the machine doesn't use the tires/tyres for reference anyway...just the rims/ryms. But get this part.....


Even if the rims/ryms are out of round (within limits) the machine will find it and compute the amount of the run-out into the computation for the correct alignment.

Truthfully..the best alignment is with the driver in the seat, 1/2 tank of fuel/petrol and the engine running to remove pressure from the dynamics on the tires/tyres at rest...but that's 'way over the top too.

Tire/tyre pressures/presyurz were important in the old/olde days too..but not so much any more. If the tire's/tyre's got SOME air/ayre and it isn't actually flat, there are compensations that can be made.

4WDs are just as touchy as two-wheelers/wheelerz for alignment...they just offer a different set of values to compensate for the 90%/10% driving characteristics of the vehicle. The manufacturers figger that you will use all four only about 10% of the time and they design the suspension and specs accordingly.

I asked for, and presumably got, 90/10 tyres. Explained to the guy that it will used mainly open road, and occasionally playing with the 4WD on a very dodgy beach in Wanganui.

He proffered......(walking out to the car)....(passed the dogs who have AGAIN crapped on the pathway!)....Dunlop Grandtrek's 265/70/16 which (from my limited knowledge of tyres/tires )appear to have no directional (?) look to the tread pattern.

Hope I got what I wanted. :confused:

allblack
27-07-2007, 11:46 AM
I run a tyre/align store.

1. yes they can do the alignment before but best results are always on new tyres.

2. If they only had it for an hour chances are fairly slim that they did a proper alignment although there are machines around now that use cameras instead of bolt on sensors and can be set up and readings taken in just 2-3 mins, if they had one of these machines then I would find it easier to believe that an alignment was done.

3. Have a look under your vehicle at the tie rod ends and see if there are any spanner marks on them, easy way to tell if any adjustment has been made, asuming of course it needed adjusting.

4. They should have given you a print out, go back and ask for it, it will be stored on there alignment computer, if they dont have it on there system ask for a refund and dont go back.

Will be interested to hear how you get on, I have found that generally the big chains have monkeys running there alignment machines, try going to a specialist independant tyre store(like mine, but I am in the wrong island for you) better service, more motivated to get you back again next time etc etc

:D mik

Thanks for comments Mik.

I will go back and ask for the alignment sheet......I'm starting to think more and more I've been done over.

But I'm usually a good judge of character (read: cynical bastard!:) ) and this guy seemed straight-up.

Or else I would have kept driving...just like I did when I went to B/Repairs in Tawa....

Edit: They had it for two hours....I wasn't there for the first. Went wandering so don't know what they did.

allblack
27-07-2007, 11:52 AM
If the machine looked anything like this (http://www.hunter.com/pub/product/alignmentsystems/4883T/index.htm) (the last machine I used before I retired), then you probably got a fair test or alignment.

The alignment machine looked like any other I've seen in my time. Not new, or "advanced" looking. At each corner of the hoist they have a thing they attach to the tyres/wheels?

Which is why I got suspicious....if every other crowd have done the alignment after the new tyres put on, what makes these guys so special?

But then...paranoia can be a beautiful thing....and maybe I should just get over it?

PaulD
27-07-2007, 01:12 PM
But then...paranoia can be a beautiful thing....and maybe I should just get over it?

Else you would have to call in for a realignment every time you put the spare wheel on.

SurferJoe46
27-07-2007, 01:20 PM
The results are going to show in the tire wear you experience.

Mostly, alignment problems and missed settings will not be readily felt by the average driver.

If you experience a "pull" to one side or another, just don't let them say it's "radial pull" because that's a load of sheepdip.

Radial pull happens, but usually from a tire that has been rotated into a different rotational direction instead of front to rear.

I personally NEVER rotate tires...for reason I've already stated in my first diatribe...but that's just me. I want to see if there's a problem in one wheel/position or not and rotating a tire will just hide the problem maker and wear two tires out faster than necessary.

I really squeak (US for cheap) when my tires get mistreated from mechanical problems...so I like to know quickly what's going wrong.

"Pulling" can be an effect of bad caster/camber..but that'd have to be 'way off to actually feel from the seat of the pants.

Dragging brakes causing a pull just doesn't happen much any more...there can be exceptions though.

Defective tires can be a pull-generator..but Dunlops are pretty good...my 2nd choice for rubber. It also depends on the country of origin for the brand tires you got too...there's a code on the casing of the tire you can investigate if you like.

I am a Remington Tire (http://www.remingtontire.us/Pages%20II/tirecatalog.html) dealer myself, and I run them exclusively. Even though retired, I still hold my seller's license for the line and buy them for friends and myself for less than dealer's cost + sales tax of course. .

1986 K5 Blazer = 33x12.50R 15 Remington Wide Brutes RV
1989 Isuzu Amigo = 32x11.50R 15 Remington Wide Brutes RV
2002 Chevy Astrovan = 235x75R 15 Remington Emeralds, Speed-Rated SR

allblack
27-07-2007, 04:11 PM
Thanks for comments SJ and others....

This is my first 4WD....so taking a bit of getting used to. Needed for two adults, two (sometimes five) kids and two dogs!

Also getting used to the fuel consumption. Haven't had it long enough to develop a sense of humour about it yet, so that's a sore point, for want of a better expression!!! :confused:

Next thread: calculating fuel consumption! Maths ain't my strong point.

tweak'e
27-07-2007, 06:57 PM
I asked for, and presumably got, 90/10 tyres. Explained to the guy that it will used mainly open road, and occasionally playing with the 4WD on a very dodgy beach in Wanganui.

He proffered......(walking out to the car)....(passed the dogs who have AGAIN crapped on the pathway!)....Dunlop Grandtrek's 265/70/16 which (from my limited knowledge of tyres/tires )appear to have no directional (?) look to the tread pattern.

Hope I got what I wanted. :confused:

after a quick goggle it looks like you got tarseal tyres, there certainly do not look like AT tyres.

SurferJoe46
28-07-2007, 03:37 AM
Thanks for comments SJ and others....

This is my first 4WD....so taking a bit of getting used to. Needed for two adults, two (sometimes five) kids and two dogs!

Also getting used to the fuel consumption. Haven't had it long enough to develop a sense of humour about it yet, so that's a sore point, for want of a better expression!!! :confused:

Next thread: calculating fuel consumption! Maths ain't my strong point.

Those Dunlop Grandtreks (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Dunlop&tireModel=Grandtrek+AT20) appear to be pretty mild for off-road activity...especially in sand or mud.

Remember that if you DO get the vehicle off the tarmac, drop the air pressure to less than what you'd consider safe or you're not going to get anywhere...quickly.

They appear to be better at highway and freeway running, will be real quiet and not have shoulder instability problems. If you feel them tug at the vehicle when you change lanes or drive over a seam in the roadway at a very low entry angle, then you need a little less air in them to help.

The radial grooves will be a problem in snow of any depth though...I suggest getting a set of GOOD chains if you live where it snows.

I run 2.27kg of air pressure in my off-road tires when I'm actually off the hardtop. I run 9.98kg for highway..but I am using 15-incher tires, and you're using 16's..so I don't know about what's best for them.

I had a set of ATs in a different brand (Kuhmo (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Road+Venture+AT+825)) once and didn't like them in snow at all..they side-slipped and felt like they were bald even when I dropped the pressure to less than 1.36kgs. In the sand they were excellent, but again at almost flat air pressures. Carry a 12v air compressor with some capacity to pump them up after you play in the snow/mud/sand/sheep poop.

Perhaps someone else will have better info for those 16's.

mike0mike0
30-05-2008, 08:03 PM
NEVER get Beau Repairs to do wheel alignment!!!

I did my WOF and the guy told me to do wheel alignment else the tyre will wear out.

So I got Beau to do it ($79 instead of $69 firestone). But only 3 months later, the sides of the front tyres are COMPLETELY worn out!!

I went back and ask Beau. So he check again and say that it wasn't properly aligned before.

Now I have to buy a set of new tyres all thanks to Beau Repairs.

SurferJoe46
31-05-2008, 07:06 AM
NEVER get Beau Repairs to do wheel alignment!!!

I did my WOF and the guy told me to do wheel alignment else the tyre will wear out.

So I got Beau to do it ($79 instead of $69 firestone). But only 3 months later, the sides of the front tyres are COMPLETELY worn out!!

I went back and ask Beau. So he check again and say that it wasn't properly aligned before.

Now I have to buy a set of new tyres all thanks to Beau Repairs.

What qualifies this "WOF-guy" to assess your tires? Is he a retired mechanic or does he actively work in a real shop? Usually those who inspect cars here in the US are pregnant teenage girls and felony work-continuation prison reform program-ees who don't know anything about anything but drugs, prregnancy and welfare checks.

Remember that "those who can, DO; those who cannot either teach or grade others".

Don't be hasty here..there are conditions and circumstances that can cause unwarranted tire wear.

What part of the tires was worn? Just the outsides or insides or BOTH the insides and outsides?

It makes a big difference,

IF just the insides, then you are toed OUT...but there are other things to see too.

IF just worn on the outsides, the you are toed IN.

BUT...IF they are worn on both the inside of the tread AND the outside.... then most likely you are running with too little air in them.

The opposite it true if you run too much air in them..they wear the center of the tread out and leave the edges alone.

Tire pressure is really a vehicle-by-vehicle condition. The manufacturer's SUGGESTED pressure values is just a starting place for you. Once you see the wear pattern of your vehicle with the loads you carry and the conditions on which you drive, then you can adjust the values accordingly. Buy new tires..and everything's out the window again.

Heavy vehicle with the same tires and rims as a lighter one will need different air pressure....usually more...to compensate for the weight.

Inversely so for the opposite situation.

What do you see on the tires in question? Check out this LINK (http://www.procarcare.com/includes/content/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/ch25/25readtirewear.html) and especially the last drawing. See where your tires fit the best.

The hardest part to get a customer to understand is that the front end of a vehicle in under a lot of diabolical dynamic stresses.

Hitting curbs, pedestrians and chuck holes will make the alignment travel a bit all the time. Usually a vehicle has a little fudge room for considerable impact compensation when striking an obstacle, but do it often enough and things get pushed out of specs.

Bent rims/wheels usually don't present an alignment problem...just a wobble and possible tire balance problem at critical speeds when they can hop and shake the steering wheel (NZ tiller?), putting extra wear on ball joints, shocks and the steering box if it gets bad enough.

Alignment can be adjusted, parts if necessary can be repaired or replaced, but tire pressure is up to the owner/driver.

.

robbyp
31-05-2008, 02:09 PM
NEVER get Beau Repairs to do wheel alignment!!!

I did my WOF and the guy told me to do wheel alignment else the tyre will wear out.

So I got Beau to do it ($79 instead of $69 firestone). But only 3 months later, the sides of the front tyres are COMPLETELY worn out!!

I went back and ask Beau. So he check again and say that it wasn't properly aligned before.

Now I have to buy a set of new tyres all thanks to Beau Repairs.

ANother example of someone doing a google search, and dedging up an old post.

decibel
31-05-2008, 04:02 PM
Remember that "those who can, DO; those who cannot either teach or grade others".

I was going to say "Rubbish!" but maybe this is why the U.S. economy is going down the gurgler.


And no, I am not, nor ever have been, a teacher.

feersumendjinn
31-05-2008, 05:08 PM
What qualifies this "WOF-guy" to assess your tires? Is he a retired mechanic or does he actively work in a real shop? Usually those who inspect cars here in the US are pregnant teenage girls and felony work-continuation prison reform program-ees who don't know anything about anything but drugs, prregnancy and welfare checks.
Oi!! I'm a 'WoF*-guy', certified by the government transport authority (LTNZ) to inspect and assess vehicles for roadworthiness and am well able to advise customers on all things automotive, having been a mechanic for 30yrs; I am Not a Pregnant Dole Bludger/Ex-Convict/Drug Addict.:illogical:)

(*Warrant of Fitness, test required six-monthly (or yearly for the first six years) for vehicle to continue to be used on NZ roads).

SurferJoe46
31-05-2008, 05:38 PM
Oi!! I'm a 'WoF*-guy', certified by the government transport authority (LTNZ) to inspect and assess vehicles for roadworthiness and am well able to advise customers on all things automotive, having been a mechanic for 30yrs; I am Not a Pregnant Dole Bludger/Ex-Convict/Drug Addict.:illogical:)

(*Warrant of Fitness, test required six-monthly (or yearly for the first six years) for vehicle to continue to be used on NZ roads).

A few questions then:

1) On-job experience..insert number of years in the actual hands-dirty part only.

2) All other questions and qualifications pale into insignificance.

feersumendjinn
31-05-2008, 07:05 PM
A few questions then:

1) On-job experience..insert number of years in the actual hands-dirty part only.

2) All other questions and qualifications pale into insignificance.

Since August 1977, and still getting grease under my fingernails as we speak :punk.

tweak'e
02-06-2008, 10:30 AM
1) On-job experience..insert number of years in the actual hands-dirty part only.


of course as all trademan know, its dosn't mean much. all that matters is how well the last job was done :)

SurferJoe46
02-06-2008, 03:55 PM
OK..the years are important.

If someone survives for more than a few years, doesn't work for the government, isn't protected by a union or is a child of the business owner, then as a survivor they likely have some gray matter between their ears and (in this case) grease under their nails. :p

Success is the only real attribute that isn't learned, but earned.

That doesn't mean that I like anyone who inspects or qualifies the work of a trade (we say: "vocation") for a living. Typically, they are political appointee jobs and the inspector hasn't the vaguest idea on how to pour urine out of their boot if the instructions are printed on the heel.

I'd hate to have a brain surgeon who just watched a training video on the surgery they are gonna do on me.

More so with an automobile: Surgeons get to bury their mistakes, mechanics have theirs come back on tow trucks.



An example of some "inspectors" who thankfully don't exist any more.

California invoked a "Preggo Unwed Mothers Almost Rehabbed Recreational Pharmaceuticals Users & Abusers Felony Work Training/Continuation Program" (The "PUMARRPUAFWTCP") a bunch of years ago to inspect automobiles for smog-related purposes.

It was called: "Hamilton Research" and as such held the final say-so in the state for emissions testing and registration qualification. SOMEBODY got paid big ones!

They weren't to actually WORK on the vehicles, but just test them and if they failed their "testing" they sent the owner to a real smog licensed installed/tester (like ME) for the refitting and repair(s) and then back to be retested by Hamilton.

I got several referrals in the shop where I worked, as I was a fully-licensed Class-A Installer/Adjuster by California testing and qualification.

One in particular was a hotrod 1969 Chevy, which originally had a 250ci/4.1L 6-cylinder, three-speed automatic trans and had by now been changed to a blown, dual-quad 500ci/8.2L Cadillac engine with a four-speed Hydro transmission.

It failed for a "MMD EGR"...which means: "MODIFIED, MISSING or DEFECTIVE EGR (http://www.sytyarchives.com/howto/engine/egr_removal_images/egr.jpg)", with the DEFECTIVE portion underlined...supposedly that was why it failed...Uh huh!


Never mind that it have an illegal 6:71 Roots (http://usera.imagecave.com/lim34/Blower001-copy.jpg) blower on the engine.
Never mind that it had two, illegal Holley (http://www.erareplicas.com/427/img/dualquad.jpg) four-barrel carbs.
Never mind that it had an illegal non-vacuum advance Mallory (http://www.classicjaguar.com/malpage.jpg) style distributor.
Never mind that it had illegal headers without AIR fittings.
Never mind it had an illegal transmission with no SC/TCS switch.
Never mind that the catalytic converter was removed.
Never mind that it had this illegal 500ci/8.2L Cadillac (http://www.markeeautosales.com/ebay/69cadillac/images/06.jpg) engine in a Chevrolet.


They just wanted the EGR problem sorted out..but even that 1972 Cadillac engine never had EGR on it in the first place. I looked at the citation and try as I could I could not see the EGR at all.

So then I called the local BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair (http://www.autorepair.ca.gov/)..the big dogs from Sacramento) representative across the street, who just happened to be a friend and he came right over to see what Hamilton had done this time.

We looked...honestly!.... we both looked for a long time to try to see what Hamilton had seen in a not-there EGR in the first place.

We were stumped. We knew that Hamilton had goofed up really bad this time..but we ran the whole gauntlet to see what was in the mind of the inspector.

Totally stumped, we got the owner's permission to drive the car back to Hamilton and run it through again just to see what they saw.

The so-called inspector came out and proudly pointed to a rusty heater control valve on the firewall, NOT even on the engine, telling us that "that EGR was inoperative and failed as it was all rusted up".

He flipped out his badge and closed them down with a writ in about two hours.

Drug addicts should not be inspecting the work of real experienced and trained people.

Hamilton is gone. I, on the other hand, still exist.

This is just another nail in the coffin for- and of- the ineptitude and political hacking that I cannot stomach to this day. :yuck:

R2x1
02-06-2008, 09:00 PM
So, 115v 60hz doesn't solve everything yet? ( Although I don't think those clowns would work even in a 440volt iron lung )