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View Full Version : Another Vista crack: more bad news for Microsoft DRM



Chris Keall
05-04-2007, 04:39 PM
says Geoff, here (http://pcworld.co.nz/pcworld/pcw.nsf/blogs)

winmacguy
05-04-2007, 05:20 PM
So why is Vista such a target for hackers when it only has about 3% market share? I thought hackers were only interested in operating systems which have over 90% market share such as XP?

trinsic
05-04-2007, 05:22 PM
New toys I guess :)

Graham L
05-04-2007, 05:26 PM
Maybe because they know it will be easy to break. The OS is secure. That's "proven by assertion". Microsoft say it is secure, so it must be. Lewis Carroll made one of his characters say: "What I tell you three times is true".

Graham L
05-04-2007, 05:27 PM
Maybe because they know it will be easy to break. The OS's security is "proven by assertion". Microsoft say it is secure, so it must be. Lewis Carroll made one of his characters say: "What I tell you three times is true".

winmacguy
05-04-2007, 05:28 PM
But people have always said that hackers won't attack systems with small market share because it is not worth it ... sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

somebody
05-04-2007, 06:10 PM
But people have always said that hackers won't attack systems with small market share because it is not worth it ... sounds like a load of bollocks to me.


Vista doesn't have a large market share *yet*. Now that most new PCs are coming with Vista, it won't take long for the market share to go up. Sounds worthwhile to me: start finding holes, so that unpatched systems can be attacked in the future.

winmacguy
05-04-2007, 06:15 PM
Correct somebody, Vista has just under 3% market share some 3 months after its release. It has also been compromised more than once in the same period. FWIW I wasn't pointing out a "for" or "against" in terms of the market share numbers, merely stating them as they are. Doesn't say much for the security of the OS does it.

DUNK
06-04-2007, 01:01 AM
Hackers are mostly Kiddies. They like new things. Being kiddies, they have short attention spans. Hence, they leave older OS's alone ...98SE still lives! ...For me anyway ... :thumbs:

winmacguy
06-04-2007, 01:09 AM
Actually the majority of hackers these days are high organised eastern European gangs that hack for cash to set up large PC botnets that create all of the phishing scams that collect hundreds of millions of dollars from unsuspecting PC users. Personally I don't think "new" has anything to do with it, more like a case of too many flaws in the coding.

Agent_24
06-04-2007, 10:25 AM
So why is Vista such a target for hackers when it only has about 3% market share? I thought hackers were only interested in operating systems which have over 90% market share such as XP?

Just because they can, and because if it gets rid of DRM then it's a good thing.

Renmoo
06-04-2007, 11:04 AM
With Vista now bearing the brunt of crackers' attack, at least computers of older Operating System are spared. :D

Cheers :)

winmacguy
06-04-2007, 11:19 AM
Believe what ever you want I guess.

winmacguy
06-04-2007, 11:39 AM
Just because people can hack Vista doesn't mean that it is going to get rid of the crappy DRM that is part of the operation which is a pity really.

pctek
08-04-2007, 03:59 PM
So why is Vista such a target for hackers

http://blogs.zdnet.com/Apple/?p=422
Gates “dares anybody” to exploit Vista



Now if some smary ********* dared me, I would too.

Metla
08-04-2007, 04:21 PM
And of course no matter how many insecurities Winmacguy suffers from Vista is the biggest thing in the entire IT world right now, It is the target, Market share will come in due time.

winmacguy
08-04-2007, 06:57 PM
It is the target, Market share will come in due time.

Vista is indeed a target, and irrespective of it's market share, is not standing up to being probed. I'd hate to see what happens when it gets to 30 or 40% market share towards the end of the year.

Metla
08-04-2007, 07:16 PM
No doubt it will follow much the same pattern as XP, though the timeline is another story, Lets hopes its much shorter.

With XP we had minor drips and drabs causing a mild fuss for a year or so, Then we had some system killing exploits (blaster worm for example) spread around the world, then we had Spyware open Slather for a year or two, where unsuspecting machines worldwide were saturated with rubbish and malicious software, All helped along by the unsuspecting user installing apps such as Kazzaa in the millions, Hotbar, smilie packs, and hundreds of other wildly popular bits of software which were a front for spyware and adware, Plus all the exploits (or in MS speak "Features) intergrated into Internet Explorer, The funny thing being it didnt really matter is the malicious code asked the user if they wanted it installed or not, Millions selected yes after being offered the likes of cheap airfares.

They got what they deserved.


However..The tide has turned, On the one hand users have had to wise up, MS have managed to patch enough of their code to stem the flow, and those users incapable of using a PC on the internet have either given up (no doubt blaming everything apart from there own short comings) or switched to the Mac platform.

So all is good, XP has matured into an excellent product, and the really stupid users have been weeded out.


Lets all do it again with Vista....lmfao.


Seriously though, The nature of the beast is now known, Its now just a matter of seeing what plan of attack it takes, I cant see it desending into the meyhem that XP was 2 or 3 years ago, Though most of that can be blamed on Internet Explorer, The single most retarded piece of software ever made available.

winmacguy
08-04-2007, 08:34 PM
Well put there Metla. I would imagine that there will be a few more general home users, scientists, researchers, universities, engineers and music producers who move over to Mac before market share percentages start to level out a bit towards something like a 80% Windows - 15% Mac - 5% Linux split.

Metla
08-04-2007, 08:46 PM
I cant see the Mac numbers increasing, Personally I think they have already peaked, If Linux and Apple failed to make any significant gains when XP was in its poorest shape then they have no chance of doing so when MS has a new product on the market (whether or not this is warrented is irrilivent)

The Mac still has no other advantage (and plenty of disadvantages) over the Windows platform apart from lack of active expoits, and as indicated by my prior post the end user is as much to blame as anyone else for the mess they make out of a Windows PC.

Although I still can't see why market share matters to anyone apart from the number crunchers, If any of the products disapeared overnight only the fanboys would care.

Bye bye Linux
Bye Bye Apple
Bye Bye MS

You all suck equally.

winmacguy
08-04-2007, 08:59 PM
Well each to their own Metla.

Greg
09-04-2007, 10:28 AM
Well each to their own Metla.Despite him not putting it exactly succinctly, I reckon Metz summed it up pretty well.

winmacguy
09-04-2007, 10:59 AM
For most of it, yes, except for Metla's comment about Mac numbers not growing anymore. They have had steady unit sales since their Christmas quarter peak meaning they haven't dropped off like previous years which means they are still selling around 1.5 - 2.0 million units a quarter (mainly laptops). That may not be as much as HP or Asus but it doesn't count as a decline in sales.
Adobe have just released CS3 for Mac with the Vista version due out later in the year and Intel have just released their Quad Core cpu for top end Mac Pros.

I would expect Vista sales to pick up towards the end of the year as more companies start to upgrade or replace some of their desktops and laptops for their execs.

Metla
09-04-2007, 11:08 AM
The point was that even when XP was unusable for millions of people(The blaster virus was a big hit) including many in the catagories you listed Mac sales still didn't raise in any substantial numbers.

Granted this was probally due to the hardware/performance being utter crap and the price being a sad sad joke. But I for one would have expected the Linux and Mac platform to grow in leaps and bounds during this period.

What has changed since then is the hardware has improved (but only by using PC components) and the price is a little more realistic though still consumed by the tosser facator....as is their advertising.

winmacguy
09-04-2007, 11:29 AM
But I for one would have expected the Linux and Mac platform to grow in leaps and bounds during this period.


Your probably not the only person expecting that Metla, although from what I have read elsewhere it would seem that Apple's approach is more based on steady sustainable increasing sales built mainly on the US education (schools and universities), TV broadcasting, engineering, music and home user markets with an eventual move into the corporate market when enough of the college grads have taken their Mac books into their professions. That is what keeps them profitable and the accountants happy.

Metla
09-04-2007, 11:44 AM
Apples approach should have had nothing to do with it, The driving factor for change would/should have been the poor performance of the windows platform.

Just like the old saying about Politicians, They don't win elections, Their opponents lose them.

winmacguy
09-04-2007, 12:30 PM
Apples approach should have had nothing to do with it, The driving factor for change would/should have been the poor performance of the windows platform.

Changing a PC users mind set from something they are familiar with to something completely new is not always easy and probably not something that you could do quickly.

This analyst report might explain a few other things regarding Apple's sales plans for the US market.

"Investment Research firm UBS said Monday it believes Apple's expanding relationship with major US consumer electronics retailers is likely to branch out further, producing positive long term effects on Mac sales.

Analyst Ben Reitzes, who maintains a Buy rating and $124 price target on shares of the Cupertino-based Mac maker, informed clients in a research note of Best Buy's decision to expand its Mac pilot from 58 stores currently to approximately 200 by this fall.

"During Apple's earnings call in [January], management stated that it was evaluating the results of its relationship with Best Buy and deciding how to proceed with the relationship," he wrote. "We believe the Best Buy expansion is a positive for Mac sales long term."

Reitzes said recent checks indicate that Mac sales "held up well" during Apple's fiscal second quarter of 2007, ended March, and could be poised for acceleration alongside the successive launches of Mac OS X 10.5 Leopard and Adobe's Creative Suite 3 bundles later this spring.

The analyst estimates Mac unit shipments grew 34 percent year-over-year during the quarter to 1.5 million units. His models for the full fiscal years of 2007 and 2008 call for Mac units to grow 27 percent and 25 percent to 6.7 million units and 8.4 million units, respectively.

"We are also optimistic about additional new Mac products and Apple's potential to expand relationships with Best Buy and Circuit City even further," he added."

I don't expect Apple to change its tv advertising style anytime soon.

Metla
09-04-2007, 12:46 PM
***, Im not reading that dribble, Why the hell would you even post it?

winmacguy
09-04-2007, 01:00 PM
Well I posted it in response to this comment:



But I for one would have expected the Linux and Mac platform to grow in leaps and bounds during this period.


So I guess the answer would be they they continue to grow but not in leaps and bounds since that has never been their intention and probably never will be.

Metla
09-04-2007, 01:08 PM
LMFAO.

You must be a soft touch, Marketing swell is worthless, The market is bigger, Volumes have to be up just to retain market share.

And I love the twisted logic, Apple failed to captilise on the faiulure of the market leader because,...wait for it...here it is...They never intended to.

PURE FREAKIN GENIUS.

sal
09-04-2007, 01:27 PM
Apple IMO is doing OK. They're turning record profits (granted mostly due to the iPod) and their OS is still holding strong security wise. They decided a good time to counter Microsoft was when Vista was launching which was a good idea.

BTW, you two need to get a room.

Metla
09-04-2007, 02:08 PM
I dont think it was ever disputed that Apple make money, Though I'm curious has to how they "countered" MS during the launch of Vista?

Murray P
09-04-2007, 02:10 PM
No doubt it will follow much the same pattern as XP, though the timeline is another story, Lets hopes its much shorter.

Yada yada yada

They got what they deserved.


However..The tide has turned, On the one hand users have had to wise up, MS have managed to patch enough of their code to stem the flow, and those users incapable of using a PC on the internet have either given up (no doubt blaming everything apart from there own short comings) or switched to the Mac platform.

So all is good, XP has matured into an excellent product, and the really stupid users have been weeded out.


Lets all do it again with Vista....lmfao.


Yada yada yada.


You need to cut down Mets, the word count is getting on the heavy side.

Just the one point from me; Some of the stupidest users weeded out have been the early adopters of Vista.

plod
09-04-2007, 05:16 PM
As far as I can tell, apple's main competition is not MS, but the other pc makers. Dell HP Asus and so on. They are the ones competing with apple as a computer manufactor not MS. Apples market share can only get as good as the other makers. If apple wanted to compete with MS then they would need to become a software company selling to the masses.:2cents:

winmacguy
09-04-2007, 06:28 PM
For Apple to become a software only company they would have to license out OS X which is not going to happen because it would mean that all of the other box manufactures would undercut Apple in the hardware department with a whole bunch of Mac clones as happened in the late 80's and early 90's after Steve Jobs had been booted out of Apple.

Apple really only picked up again once they refined their product line, moved from the OS9 code base to OS X and bought out a bunch of refined products that were redesigned from the ground up - effectively once Steve Jobs had returned to Apple in late 1997.

Note: While Steve Jobs is not responsible for actually making or designing any of the products that come out of Apple he has the final say in the look and feel of the finished product that will be put into production and end up on store shelves.

Graham L
10-04-2007, 09:24 PM
Mac can get better software reliabliity, and possibly security, by keeping control over the hardware. Open PC hardware has always been a basic handicap for MS software: it's the cause of a lot of the bloat, and every unneccessary line of code is a problem.

winmacguy
10-04-2007, 10:56 PM
Considering that they have just announced to the press that they have sold 100 million iPods since they were first released in late 2001 with an average of a 29% profit margin on each iPod, I would say that Apple has a pretty good business model.

motorbyclist
12-04-2007, 12:19 AM
As far as I can tell, apple's main competition is not MS, but the other pc makers. Dell HP Asus and so on. They are the ones competing with apple as a computer manufactor not MS. Apples market share can only get as good as the other makers. If apple wanted to compete with MS then they would need to become a software company selling to the masses.:2cents:

exactly

if mac was sold like windows, to be installed on any custom built machine it would need to have drivers for the endless different hardwares and combinations thereof. suddenly mac users would suffer driver issues, and one of macs major marketing tactics "it just works" would no longer be true.

add to that that while mac sales are increasing, so is the market, so they need to increase numerically greater that microsofts' is order for apple to gain any traction. (and it would have to be a MUCH larger number for it to mean anything)


winmacguy, your original post was a bit silly really. what were you trying to prove? it sounded more like a "mac is better than windows" post than anything else imo... and to answer it, the hackers are getting in early before vista becomes mainstream. they have some foresight, rather than blind fanaticism.



That could be still more bad news for Microsoft's time-wasting, resource wasting, ludicrously restrictive Digital Rights Management system. LOL

R2x1
12-04-2007, 12:24 AM
Apple - it just about works.
As long as you want to do what Apple lets you do (and you will do it Apple's way).
:D

motorbyclist
12-04-2007, 12:34 AM
LOL this is hilarious, it even pokes holes in blu-ray (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/%7Epgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html) and even covers how for DRM to work it must defy the laws of physics

warning:long exerpt follows, and all it really highlights is how DRM only serves to create a demand for piracy, and that drm is totally unneccessary (just like one of those "s"s and possibly a "c")

[quote]Disabling of Functionality

Vista's content protection mechanism only allows protected content to be sent over interfaces that also have content-protection facilities built in. Currently the most common high-end audio output interface is S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format). Most newer audio cards, for example, feature TOSlink digital optical output for high-quality sound reproduction, and even the latest crop of motherboards with integrated audio provide at least coax (and often optical) digital output. Since S/PDIF doesn't provide any

motorbyclist
12-04-2007, 12:43 AM
LOL this is hilarious, it even pokes holes in blu-ray (http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/%7Epgut001/pubs/vista_cost.html)

warning:long exerpt follows, and all it really highlights is how DRM only serves to create a demand for piracy, and that drm is totally unneccessary (just like one of those "s"s and possibly a "c")


Disabling of Functionality

Vista's content protection mechanism only allows protected content to be sent over interfaces that also have content-protection facilities built in. Currently the most common high-end audio output interface is S/PDIF (Sony/Philips Digital Interface Format). Most newer audio cards, for example, feature TOSlink digital optical output for high-quality sound reproduction, and even the latest crop of motherboards with integrated audio provide at least coax (and often optical) digital output. Since S/PDIF doesn't provide any content protection, Vista requires that it be disabled when playing protected content [Note E]. In other words if you've sunk a pile of money into a high-end audio setup fed from an S/PDIF digital output, you won't be able to use it with protected content. Instead of hearing premium high-definition audio, you get treated to premium high-definition silence.

Say you've just bought Pink Floyd's “The Dark Side of the Moon”, released as a Super Audio CD (SACD) in its 30th anniversary edition in 2003, and you want to play it under Vista (I'm just using SACD as a representative example of protected audio content because it's a well-known technology, in practice Sony has refused to license it for playback on PCs). Since the S/PDIF link to your amplifier/speakers is regarded as insecure for playing the SA content, Vista would disable it, and you'd end up hearing a performance by Marcel Marceau instead of Pink Floyd.

Similarly, component (YPbPr) video will be disabled by Vista's content protection, so the same applies to a high-end video setup fed from component video. But what if you're lucky enough to have bought a video card that supports HDMI digital video with HDCP content-protection? There's a good chance that you'll have to go out and buy another video card that really does support HDCP, because until quite recently no video card on the market actually supported it even if the vendor's advertising claimed that it did. As the site that first broke the story in their article The Great HDCP Fiasco puts it:

“None of the AGP or PCI-E graphics cards that you can buy today support HDCP […] If you've just spent $1000 on a pair of Radeon X1900 XT graphics cards expecting to be able to playback HD-DVD or Blu-Ray movies at 1920×1080 resolution in the future, you've just wasted your money […] If you just spent $1500 on a pair of 7800GTX 512MB GPUs expecting to be able to play 1920×1080 HD-DVD or Blu-Ray movies in the future, you've just wasted your money”.

(The two devices mentioned above are the premium supposedly-HDCP-enabled cards made by the two major graphics chipset manufacturers ATI and nVidia). ATI was later subject to a class-action lawsuit by its customers over this deception. As late as August of 2006, when Sony announced its Blu-Ray drive for PCs, it had to face the embarrassing fact that its Blu-Ray drive couldn't actually play Blu-Ray disks in HD format:

“Since there are currently no PCs for sale offering graphics chips that support HDCP, this isn't yet possible”.

In fact so far no-one has been able to identify any Windows system that will actually play HD content in HD quality, in all cases any attempt to do this produced either no output or a message that it was blocked by content protection. Even nVidia's latest and greatest device, the G80, can't output 1080p HD video, because once you enable HDCP (which is required by Vista for HD-DVD or BluRay playback), you're limited to 720p resolution. nVidia's older G7x line also has this problem, as does ATI's R5xx. In fact the only graphics device that appears to support full-resolution HD playback, requiring dual-link HDMI, is ATI's not-yet-released R600. While it's not possible to prove a negative in this manner, it's certainly an indication that potential buyers may be in for a shock when they try and play full HD-quality premium content on their shiny new Vista PC.

Agent_24
12-04-2007, 09:43 AM
This is also why I hate Vista. I mean DRM. I mean Microsoft are idiots.

So. I buy said 2x Radeons X1900XT In Crossfire. I buy a Blu-Ray drive. I buy Vista Ultimate. I Buy a large TV. I spend a lot of money.

And If I can't play my Videos??

What to do??? well, obviously one is going to find a way to bypass the DRM somehow, maybe someone will write a DVD-Decrypter for Blu-Ray.

Either way, my point being is that I am forced to "Pirate" or otherwise be "illegal" just to watch stuff I have legitimately aquired. This then DEFEATS THE WHOLE POINT OF DRM AND COPY PROTECTION.


Take macrovision for example. If I play a macrovision DVD on my TV, it screws up. This is because I have 2 VCRs the signal has to go through to get to my TV. So macrovision OF COURSE thinks I MUST be wanting to copy the dvd to a tape. well ***??? I mean who would do that anyway?? It would be crap quality!!! If you really wanted to pirated, just rip with dvd decrypter and then burn to new dvd-r...

If I do said ripping, and then play DVD back on PC with TV out on video card, there is no problem with the 2 VCRs at all. But because macrovision is STUPID, I am again forced to get around it just to watch stuff properly and legitimately. (after all, I bought the damn DVD. I'm going to do whatever I want to play it properly)


STEAM is also a good example of anti-piracy gone horribly wrong. Ever try to play HL-2 (note, this is my full, unpirated, legitimately bought, 5-CD version complete with authentic CD-KEY) from a clean install?? you must spend:

1) an hour updating steam three (3) Times
2) half an hour decrypting the game files
3) another hour downloading updates for said game, because you can't just play without updating it
4) all the while, my DSL of 160KB/s bandwidth is not even used and the total speed never exceeded 17KB/s, because Steam's servers are crap.

Every other game I can install, and play within minutes. but not anything on Steam. Oh no. because "people might pirate it". well I have news for you.

I recently played HL-2:EP1. It was good, although a little short. Unsurprisingly I got it from bittorrent. can you guess why????

(Note: I will at some point buy said game, to justify my downloading of it. when I forgive valve for making steam, and feel they deserve my money again)

Earl1983
20-11-2007, 03:37 AM
So why is Vista such a target for hackers when it only has about 3% market share? I thought hackers were only interested in operating systems which have over 90% market share such as XP?

here (http://avast.com/eng/download-avast-home.html) is a fresh one!)

chiefnz
20-11-2007, 08:47 AM
But people have always said that hackers won't attack systems with small market share because it is not worth it ... sounds like a load of bollocks to me.

Regardless of market share... I think it's more like a MS thing. That's why they're doing it. Just to prove to the masses that despite what MS says... the consumer should think twice about making use of Windows because the OS regardless of version isn't or hasn't been as secure as MS have led us to believe.

Cheers

Agent_24
20-11-2007, 09:24 AM
I'm keen on any hacks that get rid of DRM, because it's a horrible piece of junk

steveroby
20-11-2007, 09:55 AM
Either way, my point being is that I am forced to "Pirate" or otherwise be "illegal" just to watch stuff I have legitimately aquired. This then DEFEATS THE WHOLE POINT OF DRM AND COPY PROTECTION.



'copy protected' CD's are another example of this
They wont play on my 4 year old CD player (as they dont conform to the original CD spec)
So to play them Ive had to copy the CD (ha, take that), then play the copy. Makes copy protection a bit of a joke, so why put in on the CD's
Bypassing the copy protection is illegal in some countries, yet in some cases necessary to make the product usable.
Copy protected CD's arnt obviously labeled as such, often just a tiny note on the back.

winmacguy
20-11-2007, 02:05 PM
Regardless of market share... I think it's more like a MS thing. That's why they're doing it. Just to prove to the masses that despite what MS says... the consumer should think twice about making use of Windows because the OS regardless of version isn't or hasn't been as secure as MS have led us to believe.

Cheers

:thumbs:



I'm keen on any hacks that get rid of DRM, because it's a horrible piece of junk
I think the success of iTunes Music Store and Amazon.com's DRM free music store is proving to MS and the RIAA that DRM free music will outsell heavily DRMd stuff any day thus making DRMd music pointless.

paulw
20-11-2007, 03:48 PM
:thumbs:


I think the success of iTunes Music Store and Amazon.com's DRM free music store is proving to MS and the RIAA that DRM free music will outsell heavily DRMd stuff any day thus making DRMd music pointless.

Agreed. But it would be nice if all the itunes content was available down here and that you could get access to Amazon here in NZ..

winmacguy
20-11-2007, 04:42 PM
Agreed. But it would be nice if all the itunes content was available down here and that you could get access to Amazon here in NZ..

There is a certain amount of DRM free stuff available to us, other than that you will just have to have a word to the w***ers at the RIAA and the rest of the music industry about making more music DRM free.

blueberry287
19-01-2008, 12:13 AM
[edit: spam removed]

Metla
19-01-2008, 12:41 AM
Your mum tastes funny.

mikebartnz
19-01-2008, 02:49 AM
So why is Vista such a target for hackers when it only has about 3% market share? I thought hackers were only interested in operating systems which have over 90% market share such as XP?
If they truly wanted to earn some points they would try and take down Linux or the Open source programs that run the net.

darroll
19-01-2008, 08:41 AM
Now the warnings are out for a new virus that infect APPLE COMPUTERS.
When is this going to end?.
The anti-virus software makers are having a hay-day.
d

motorbyclist
19-01-2008, 04:30 PM
If they truly wanted to earn some points they would try and take down Linux or the Open source programs that run the net.

yeah, but they'd only take down a few at a time cause they are all on different versions, the virus would have to spread via windows anyway, and of course servers have some pretty serious security on them

but if they did, atleast 100 points