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pctek
02-09-2006, 12:18 PM
Windows Vista itself will be slightly more expensive than today's Windows XP. The Windows Vista will cost at least $100 in the shape of an upgrade DVD that allows users access to the "Home Basic" version of the software.

That version however does not include the "Aeroglass" graphical user interface that may be one of the key reasons for Windows XP users to upgrade to the new operating system. Aeroglass support will cost at least $160 for the Premium Upgrade DVD and $240 for the full version.

Vista Business, which is comparable to today's Windows XP Professional, lacks multimedia features of Premium, but integrates features such as the IIS web server, a remote desktop, P2P capability and support for up to 128 GB of memory. This version apparently will carry a suggested retail price of $200 for the upgrade and $300 for the full version. XP Pro currently sells for $160 as upgrade and $250 for the full version.

The flagship of the Vista series, "Ultimate", offers all features of the Premium, Business and Enterprise editions and adds for example podcast tools, a game performance tuning utility and DVD ripping support. According to Amazon.com, Ultimate will cost $260 as upgrade DVD and $400 as full version.

http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/08/29/vista_prices_revealed/

I laugh at that comment that Areoglass is a key reason to upgrade. Right...

Greven
02-09-2006, 01:00 PM
Aero might not be a reason for us to upgrade, but there are plenty of people who use their computer as a fancy typewriter & they are very impressed by things that look good.

Fishy
02-09-2006, 01:17 PM
The only reason I will eventually get it is for DirectX 10...

Oh and is that US dollars? :horrified

paulw
02-09-2006, 01:28 PM
The only reason I will eventually get it is for DirectX 10...

Oh and is that US dollars? :horrified

Looking at Amazon's prices yes. Expect NZs to be much higher and beside who thinks it's a must do thing to go to Vista..?? I'm still on Win2K and quite happy with it..

drcspy
02-09-2006, 02:41 PM
hey ti's gonna be even more expensive cause there's a lot of folks who'll have to upgrade their hardware to even look at runnin vista.....specially with all the bells'n'whistles....

Greg
02-09-2006, 03:15 PM
When Vista is two, maybe three years old and it offers more gaming and otherwise performance progress, then yeah, I might even bother to read about what the ... Aero is or isn't supposed to be or do.

Metla
02-09-2006, 04:57 PM
Prices look fine to me.

Probally because like others I wont be bothering with it for 2 or 3 years, and by then the price will be realistic, Just look at the price of an OEM version of XP now compared to retail price at intoduction.

I still predict it will flop.

Rob99
02-09-2006, 04:58 PM
To be fair, most people wont be upgrading untill a fully suported cracked version is avaliable

Metla
02-09-2006, 05:01 PM
And if the past is anything to go by, That will be released a good week before the retail copy appears on shop shelves.

george12
02-09-2006, 05:18 PM
And if the past is anything to go by, That will be released a good week before the retail copy appears on shop shelves.

That, or Microsoft will say, "I have an idea, let's make a corporate version that requires no activation or registration and has all the features available, needing only a 15 digit key..."

george12
02-09-2006, 05:34 PM
25 I mean ...

pctek
02-09-2006, 06:01 PM
To be fair, most people wont be upgrading untill a fully suported cracked version is avaliable

:D


Yes well. It is US dollars. Greed.
I will change when DirectX10 forces me too.
Unless someone does a hack and ports DX10 to XP....

stu161204
02-09-2006, 06:24 PM
I will change when DirectX10 forces me too.
Unless someone does a hack and ports DX10 to XP....

I bet some one will.....

motorbyclist
02-09-2006, 09:11 PM
i think with prices as ridiculous as those, they're unwittingly encouarging piracy of their software.... not that your average system can run vista anyway lol

mejobloggs
02-09-2006, 09:15 PM
Methinks no one is going to port DX10 to XP

nobody
02-09-2006, 09:22 PM
if its that expensive then noone will buy it, simple. They will learn from this mistake and eventually cut the price

Strommer
02-09-2006, 09:56 PM
if its that expensive then noone will buy it, simple. They will learn from this mistake and eventually cut the price

Yeah but remember that MS as a company is a very slow learner, e.g. putting tabs in IE. But I do agree with you that "no one (well, fewer than expected) will buy it" due to the high price.

There WAS an incentive to go to XP, and that was for most of us to dump Win98 and all of its headaches. For me, XP is just fine and I see no reason to upgrade, especially to get the transparent window thing.

Metla predicts Vista will flop. I hope so, at least while the price is so high. My guess it that as soon as it is released, a team of Chinese will work day and night to crack it. No matter how hard MS makes it un-copy-able, its gotta happen... or else Linux will be even more popular.

nobody
02-09-2006, 10:03 PM
Yeah but remember that MS as a company is a very slow learner, e.g. putting tabs in IE. But I do agree with you that "no one (well, fewer than expected) will buy it" due to the high price.

Good point, lets hope there not as slow as telescum :dogeye:

The thing is you can get most of the vista stuff for free with a linux system, even cool effects like 3d rotating desktops, totally useless but cool stuff nevertheless

bob_doe_nz
02-09-2006, 10:43 PM
But like Windows, Linux still has flaws and rather annoying bugs. (ie They dont seem to like installing to laptops. Or is it the Wifi card... Hmmm)

Greven
03-09-2006, 12:51 AM
it will be interesting to see if there is such a huge price difference in the OEM versions - Will a new Dell that comes with vista preinstalled be $200 more expensive than the same computer with XP preinstalled?

Rob99
03-09-2006, 01:27 AM
Vista wont flop or miss out on sales cause of a higher price, thats not saying vista wont be a pile of crap though, personally I'm going to give it a whirl as soon as it hits the shelves.

Only when computer builders give the option of linux as an operating system, will you see MS flop. So come on every body give linux a go, Mepis :thumbs:

motorbyclist
03-09-2006, 02:13 AM
it will be interesting to see if there is such a huge price difference in the OEM versions - Will a new Dell that comes with vista preinstalled be $200 more expensive than the same computer with XP preinstalled?

lol, like dell would sell anything capable of running vista!

well, they probably would, but only just and for a ridiculus sum

i hate dell:annoyed:


Vista wont flop or miss out on sales cause of a higher price, thats not saying vista wont be a pile of crap though, personally I'm going to give it a whirl as soon as it hits the shelves.

i'll give it untill sp1 atleast, I'd rather not be MS's crash test dummy

pctek
03-09-2006, 10:16 AM
if its that expensive then noone will buy it, simple. They will learn from this mistake and eventually cut the price

Nice idea but how do you think Bill Gates got to be so rich? Look how much Office costs, he's sold trillions...

Fishy
03-09-2006, 11:52 AM
An easy way for microsoft to stop a LOT of their piracy is to do what valve has done on steam (the game thingy)
You can only use a cd key once and and after that it cannot be registered anymore, why doesn't microsoft do that and then they won't get people using the same key 57896378652 times.

sambaird
03-09-2006, 01:02 PM
An easy way for microsoft to stop a LOT of their piracy is to do what valve has done on steam (the game thingy)
You can only use a cd key once and and after that it cannot be registered anymore, why doesn't microsoft do that and then they won't get people using the same key 57896378652 times.
What if you want/need to reinstall it?

pine-o-cleen
03-09-2006, 02:52 PM
Upgrade to make windows transparent? I can do that now, It's really nothing amazing.

Screenshot (http://www.imagef1.net.nz/files/transparent.jpg)

dolby digital
03-09-2006, 03:38 PM
When I first got involved with PC's around 1991, what intrigued me, was that you had to buy DOS separately. Well thats fine but a pc was pretty useless without DOS (and from memory there was little alternative until DR-DOS and the like). Bill knows when he is on to a winner.

Metla
03-09-2006, 04:19 PM
An easy way for microsoft to stop a LOT of their piracy is to do what valve has done on steam (the game thingy)
You can only use a cd key once and and after that it cannot be registered anymore, why doesn't microsoft do that and then they won't get people using the same key 57896378652 times.

Steam didn't stop piracy, Not only was HL2 cracked and destributed with no more greif then any other game but the online components were also cracked and destributed.

The only aspect that had any effect were updates for the online games, and while I don't know if its still happening but the steam destributed updates that removed access for cracked copies were also cracked and destributed within a couple of hours of official release.

The most interesting part of this is that in nearly every other case the game crackers usually ignore the online components of games entirely (obviously because its so easy for the game devs to bounce out the pirated copies and the pirates don't intend to offer updates for a cracked release)

So, Steam/HL2 poor example.

On the other hand MS could quite easily drop a little bit of code into Vista that would disable the vast majority of pirated copies, Personally I think they should, Then thoush looking for a free alternative would be forced onto Linux.....

pctek
03-09-2006, 04:36 PM
An easy way for microsoft to stop a LOT of their piracy is to do what valve has done on steam (the game thingy)
You can only use a cd key once and and after that it cannot be registered anymore, why doesn't microsoft do that and then they won't get people using the same key 57896378652 times.

:lol:

I have seen both versions that run without Steam and versions that you could access via Steam. So much for the Steam idea.
All that sort of thing does, is cause headaches for the legit users - go read the forums on Steam hassles.

Been chatting to an admin at a Uni friend - she was at the Vista TechEd thing the other week. She likes Visat.
She likes (her words):
Aero (very Mac like)
Lockdown capabilities -well she would wworking at a uni
Parental control
No reboots after updating stuff like Adobe

None of which excites me in the slighest

Graham L
03-09-2006, 04:45 PM
What if you want/need to reinstall it?Why would you ever need to do that? Like all the versions of Windows so far, Vista will be perfectly designed and coded, with no bugs, memory leaks, or security holes. Won't it? :cool:

Nomad
03-09-2006, 08:43 PM
One of the ways I think they could do is if a person uses internet, some people don't in reality. To those that does, it requires tri monthly automatic activation that requires updates to be installed as well and checks for its authenticity. MS will then have a team working on this little thing of their's.

May not be the perfect answer but if its annoying enough it can have some usage.

Or require credit card online activation only and no telephone calling or mail the cheque in the mail. Drop the price of Windows and make it all subscription based. When its superceded no more subscription is required.

However I guess if people are able to knock out the core of it then anything MS does is limited.

Just a side point. Would Linux always be free? If they become successful would they move away from that or be it slightly?

TGoddard
03-09-2006, 09:11 PM
I'm not sure whether you were being sarcastic or not with half of this. I've been known to miss it before :)


One of the ways I think they could do is if a person uses internet, some people don't in reality. To those that does, it requires tri monthly automatic activation that requires updates to be installed as well and checks for its authenticity. MS will then have a team working on this little thing of their's.

It's called WGA.


May not be the perfect answer but if its annoying enough it can have some usage.

Or require credit card online activation only and no telephone calling or mail the cheque in the mail. Drop the price of Windows and make it all subscription based. When its superceded no more subscription is required.

Many (well, some) people don't have credit cards.


However I guess if people are able to knock out the core of it then anything MS does is limited.

Just a side point. Would Linux always be free? If they become successful would they move away from that or be it slightly?

Yes, Linux will always be free as it is an open source product. The difference between "freeware" and open source is that freeware licences still restrict what the user is permitted to do. Open source licences by definition provide full access to the source code (making changes possible) and permit modification and redistribution of the software by any user without requiring the permission of the original author.

Once you release software under an open source licence the cat is out of the bag - you can never recall or cancel the license (although you can distribute newer copies under a different licence - you still own your original code). Users of open source software can never be held ransom at the whim of the original producers. If enough people dislike their management of the project, they may decide to "fork" the project and create their own version, which is perfectly legal and not uncommon.

PedalSlammer
03-09-2006, 09:13 PM
Whaaa! So expensive! I wonder if I get a notebook with Vista in it will affect the cost.:waughh: The price is gotta kill me.
:) But if people want Vista they should be preparing the price to pay for it.
Oh well, looks like I need to cut down my budget cost for a notebook next year. Or maybe not.

Nomad
03-09-2006, 11:28 PM
Well I think, despite the cost people are still going to go for it, because its new and the latest. If people can afford fancy laptops and many do not play games and if people can afford fancy cellphones and other things, Vista is nothing.

Strommer
03-09-2006, 11:32 PM
Gotta ask this:

When Vista is released, will WinXP still continue to be for sale?
My guess is NO, except for lingering stock.
And will MS allow PC's to be made with only Vista OEM instead of XP ?

Myth
04-09-2006, 12:15 AM
Windows users really do make me laugh. Most seem to think that it will be uncrackable, etc, etc. Uhh, how do I break this to you nicely? WRONG.
SP2 introduced WGA, I believe it was cracked in a couple of weeks. There was also another hack (using the updates site java) to circumvent another security measure that stopped pirated copies updating. That I believe was released within hours, maybe days.

There will always be a way to get around anything that MS tries to throw at those with pirated copies. You just gotta know where to look. I have had computers with pirated copies bought to me with users asking for a fix to this popup that keeps bothering them. I tell them to buy a legal copy. They say "but I hear theres a registry fix or something". I know nothing :)

Personally, I believe Vista won't flop. Windows is all about convenience. Apple hardware is too expensive, and Linux is [apparently] too hard to set up. Besides that, the vast majority are unfamiliar with both of these, and unfamiliarity breeds insecurity, and lord help us we might actually have to take a chance and do something different. So people will buy the new hardware required, and pay the ludicrous prices for Vista. Why, coz they know that they can take it home, plug it in, and everything will go. If it blue screens, oh well.. take it to the shop.. thats just windows doing its thing. It was expected to happen sooner or later anyway. If it wont boot and spits out a "file is corrupt or missing" error, just another day at the office.

I personally won't be buying it, I will stay with my Linux. My g/f doesn't have the hardware to run it, and even if she did I suspect she will want me to install Linux on it (she seems to be rather impressed by what my system is capable of). I might borrow someones machine to look at it, get some familiarity for when I have to repair it.

Metla
04-09-2006, 12:59 AM
Heh, what most seem to be missing is how MS and its partners want the market to respond. Back in the day when they released a new OS it immedialty created a massive and prolonged spike in sales of new computers.

When XP was released it didn't happen, well at least not in the numbers that MS and partners wanted, So in many quarters it was considered a flop, Sure every new comp was/is bundled with a copy but if XP didn't exist then those same comps still would have been bundled with an MS OS.

Many (and there are millions upon millions upon millions of comps out there) people simply went fine, I can ignore XP and stick to my current rig and OS untill when it suits me to upgrade (as noted many times in the past a new set of bells and whistles on the market doesn't make you old faithfull any less faithfull or capable). And where was the benifit for companies to upgrade from W2k to XP?...Especially as XP is W2k with thousands more security holes and resource sucking fluff. How does eye candy get work done faster?

Anyhow, Vista is a concerted effort to kick the market so hard that we all run out and buy a brand new Vista enabled rig from Dell or HP, its no mistake that buying the software alone is so expensive, nor that the system requirments are so high as to force most people who want Vista to buy an entire new rig.

MS are once again trying to shape the people to fit there marketing plan, But this time there is even less reason to upgrade (XP is rock solid in most aspects) and more reasons not to (price, Security holes in the billions in any new MS OS, System requirments, DRM, Customers are jaded by MS BS)

Which is why imo it will flop, even as it supersedes XP on all new comps, It simply wont invigorate the market in the way that MS's partners are hoping it will, They surely must realise its not 1995 anymore and we already have a gui, Making it transparent doesn't mean crap and doesn't qualify even as a feature let alone a killer app.

Besides, Most people surf, play with a few photo's, Yet they are expected to shell out for a full blown high-endgaming rig so they can run there OS?

Ah well, I supose I can amuse myself with the bad press as DRM bites people and they find out what MS have forbidden them to do on their own PC, and when the next hack rages across the internet deftly steping around the new "security features" and lays waste to the OS.

Still, it will mean the Likes of Telecom can continue "leasing" an anti-virus program to its customers.


So many suckers out there (if your currently leasing an anti-virus app from Xtra/Telecom then yes, Its you I am referring to)

Strommer
04-09-2006, 08:31 AM
I go with you Metla: Vista will not sell as much as MS predicts. There simply is no big incentive to get it. XP is mostly "rock solid", non-MS AV, firewalls, etc, cover the security holes, as well as smart operator practice. So why get Vista when most PC's will probably not be able to handle it or will lag with its resource demands?

But I still wonder:

When Vista is released, will WinXP still continue to be for sale?
My guess is NO, except for lingering stock.
And will MS allow PC's to be made with only Vista OEM instead of XP ?

pctek
04-09-2006, 09:07 AM
But Metla, its not the average home user wanting to upgrade that makes all the sales. Its companies. Akld Uni is going to install it, they are going to have to get new PCs but they are almost at the end of their 3 yrs anyway so they don'tt care.

A lot of other big businesses will too.

And it will become the O/S when you buy a new Dell, Compaq, etc.

Thats how it gets out to begin with, regardless of whether the rest of us avoid it.
Look how prevalent XP is now....
And MS will encourage it by not supporting it, drivers will become harder to find for newer hardware etc....

Its why I now have XP on this PC - no Win98 drivers for everything - especially the MB.

PedalSlammer
04-09-2006, 06:37 PM
So many suckers out there (if your currently leasing an anti-virus app from Xtra/Telecom then yes, Its you I am referring to)
lol. Those softwares are crap and can't even detect files at all.:dogeye: It's a waste of money at least my BitDefender is working. Thank god at least a famous Anti-Virus is working.;)
By the way I'm not a fancy spender. But new OS does have some new features in there.

Strommer
04-09-2006, 07:18 PM
But new OS does have some new features in there.

OK, I am curious.
What "new features" grab you enough to have you fork out more $$ to poor old impoverished MS?

Metla
04-09-2006, 07:41 PM
But Metla, its not the average home user wanting to upgrade that makes all the sales. Its companies. Akld Uni is going to install it, they are going to have to get new PCs but they are almost at the end of their 3 yrs anyway so they don'tt care.

A lot of other big businesses will too.

And it will become the O/S when you buy a new Dell, Compaq, etc.

Thats how it gets out to begin with, regardless of whether the rest of us avoid it.
Look how prevalent XP is now....
And MS will encourage it by not supporting it, drivers will become harder to find for newer hardware etc....

Its why I now have XP on this PC - no Win98 drivers for everything - especially the MB.

None of that contradicts anything I said in the least, Yes companies will get it when they next upgrade, And yes no matter if they upgraded a year ago or in years time they would still get whatever MS is currently available.

The point is whether or not they will create an upgrade cycle just for Vista, and the proof in the pudding is that it didn't happen as expected with XP.

And try not to discount the home users, There are literally hundreds of millions of comps in peoples homes.

Windows 95/98 gave us a usable gui, huge driver database and multi-media capabilities plus intuitive internet capabilities.

NT/W2K gave stability and networking features for businesses.

XP gave us both rolled into the single package.

What does Vista bring?............DRM?

pctek
04-09-2006, 07:44 PM
None of that contradicts anything I said in the least,
XP gave us both rolled into the single package.

What does Vista bring?............DRM?

So he will sell millions as always.

Yes Vista brings DRM, more bloat, more tech headaches and less money in the pockets of those who buy it.

Poppa John
04-09-2006, 09:28 PM
Metla........Cough, Cough. PJ

Metla
04-09-2006, 10:08 PM
Believe me PJ I have been trying, but between the long hours at work, the nightly ritual of dinner, shower,spend some time with the family and the 50 billion things I have to get done on the weekends my time has been sparse.

Your not the only ones that I have let down lately and I'm certainly not happy about it, Though Im doing my utmost to catch up with the people who Ive told I'll call in on.

Hitech
04-09-2006, 10:19 PM
At the end of the day most people will stick with ms cause its been round for years and people who dont want to bother with linux and such will have to put up with it,as their are not many free OS systems available this is why Bill gates is so rich.Obviously 90% of people are happy with ms systems they keep making them so they must be selling them so their cant be that much wrong with what ms does.

pctek
05-09-2006, 09:23 AM
Obviously 90% of people are happy with ms systems they keep making them so they must be selling them so their cant be that much wrong with what ms does.

Why does how widespread something is automatically mean its great?

Slavery was widespread not so long ago.

Ford sold heaps of Pintos in the US.

Thalidomide was widely popular as a morning sickness drug.

Widespread means good marketing, not necessarily the best product.

FoxyMX
05-09-2006, 10:43 AM
Widespread means good marketing, not necessarily the best product.

Or peer pressure/keeping up with the Jones's - "It must be good because Tom, Barb, Pete and Mary have one of those so I want one too!" :rolleyes: :groan:

KiwiTT_NZ
05-09-2006, 12:43 PM
I am still using Windows 2000. Windows XP in relation to Windows 2000 was much like Windows 98 is to Windows 95.

Windows XP Features and how to get them in Windows 2000
Windows XP Firewall: Windows 2000 + third party firewall (free)
Windows XP Media Player: Windows 2000 + third party players (free)
Windows XP Internet Explorer: Windows 2000 + Firefox (free)
Windows XP Security: Windows 2000 + ProcessGuard (free)
Windows XP DirectX: Windows 2000 + DirectX 9.0c (free)

So why do I need Windows XP. And why would I need Vista.

Once I no longer wish to play my old games. I will migrate to Linux (also free)

Why pay US$400 to upgrade to Vista when I could not find a valid reason to upgrade to XP

pctek
05-09-2006, 01:42 PM
Windows XP Features and how to get them in Windows 2000
Windows XP Firewall: Windows 2000 + third party firewall (free)
Windows XP Media Player: Windows 2000 + third party players (free)
Windows XP Internet Explorer: Windows 2000 + Firefox (free)

Windows XP Security: Windows 2000 + ProcessGuard (free)
Windows XP DirectX: Windows 2000 + DirectX 9.0c (free)

So why do I need Windows XP. And why would I need Vista.


Yep, all those things you list first are crap anyway.

As for the last - thats what will force me to it probably - not 9.0c - DX10.

paulw
05-09-2006, 01:48 PM
Yep, all those things you list first are crap anyway.

As for the last - thats what will force me to it probably - not 9.0c - DX10.

So your going to be one of the first Lemmings to jump off the cliff.

And what makes you such an expert on saying free stuff is crap?? Sound like M$..

KiwiTT_NZ
05-09-2006, 01:51 PM
Actually I read PCtek's comment to mean the Windows XP features were crap, not the freebies

SolMiester
05-09-2006, 01:56 PM
But Metla, its not the average home user wanting to upgrade that makes all the sales. Its companies. Akld Uni is going to install it, they are going to have to get new PCs but they are almost at the end of their 3 yrs anyway so they don'tt care.

A lot of other big businesses will too.

And it will become the O/S when you buy a new Dell, Compaq, etc.

Thats how it gets out to begin with, regardless of whether the rest of us avoid it.
Look how prevalent XP is now....
And MS will encourage it by not supporting it, drivers will become harder to find for newer hardware etc....


Not sure I agree with you there PCTek. As far as I know, our 400+ workstations on our WAN will not be upgraded to Vista. I think any company that jumps on board is crazy unless they run a test environment with all their server apps connecting successfully to the client workstation. Auckland Uni....LOL

It will be Jo Public who buys Vista 1st.

drcspy
05-09-2006, 03:14 PM
[B}Originally Posted by pctek
Widespread means good marketing, not necessarily the best product.[/B]


norton

lol

motorbyclist
05-09-2006, 07:10 PM
[B}Originally Posted by pctek
Widespread means good marketing, not necessarily the best product.[/B]


norton

lol

lol too true

pctek
05-09-2006, 07:33 PM
So your going to be one of the first Lemmings to jump off the cliff.

And what makes you such an expert on saying free stuff is crap?? Sound like M$..

Hell no. One of the lemmings that gets pushed off. DX10 won't matter just yet, but sooner or later it will. And sooner or later there wqon't be driver support. Like I said thats hwy I now have XP - no 98 drivers for my board....:-(

And yes I did mean the MS bundled rubbish, not the replacements. My point - MS trying to make people use this crap by bundling it and then claiming windows needs it to run.
If their products are so great then they wouldn't need to resort this sort of thing....:badpc:

plod
05-09-2006, 08:29 PM
Hell no. One of the lemmings that gets pushed off. DX10 won't matter just yet, but sooner or later it will. And sooner or later there wqon't be driver support. Like I said thats hwy I now have XP - no 98 drivers for my board....:-(

And yes I did mean the MS bundled rubbish, not the replacements. My point - MS trying to make people use this crap by bundling it and then claiming windows needs it to run.
If their products are so great then they wouldn't need to resort this sort of thing....:badpc:
Will you not need "vista" to try out and play with to help you in your job as pc tech, I thought you and all the others that make there living from fixing computers would be the first in line to get

pctek
05-09-2006, 09:58 PM
Will you not need "vista" to try out and play with to help you in your job as pc tech, I thought you and all the others that make there living from fixing computers would be the first in line to get

Hah. Myth. I only installed XP last year on my PC - fixed plenty of them before that.
Does a mechanic need to own a particular type of car to be able to do repairs?

plod
05-09-2006, 11:21 PM
Hah. Myth. I only installed XP last year on my PC - fixed plenty of them before that.
Does a mechanic need to own a particular type of car to be able to do repairs?

I guess not

roddy_boy
05-09-2006, 11:26 PM
pwnt