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Renmoo
04-07-2006, 10:25 PM
Link: (http://dse.resultspage.com/search.php?p=R&srid=S2%2d4&lbc=dse&w=multi%20function%20printers&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2edse%2eco%2enz%2fcgi%2dbin%2 fdse%2estorefront%2f%5fsessionid%5f%2fProduct%2fVi ew%2fXP1410&rk=1&uid=43852464&sid=2&ts=p2&rsc=DS1A3ZPsAJnkxH45&sessionid=44aa321900900c98273fc0a87f9906d9&method=and&isort=score)
Hello team,
My Epson C41SX printer is getting old (too old, in fact) now and my dad thinks that it is time for a change. After scouting around major electrical shops around Botany Downs (the nearest suburb from my area), I think this printer suits my family's need best (i.e. it is able to print black-and-white documents and occasional images). We do not fancy one of those super multifunction printers where you can print, scan, fax, print from memory card etc. etc.

The budget is around NZD150 (preferably, less than that).

Cheers :)

quarry
04-07-2006, 10:40 PM
i've sold a few of these - it's an average printer & copier - but it should serve you well. price is good - make sure there is a black & colour included. it's an old model, but that doesn't matter - that's why it's cheap

Laura
04-07-2006, 10:51 PM
That link goes to an HP multifunction.
Looks like a lot of options for the price.
Glad to hear it's only cheap because it's an old model - or I'd have been suspicious.

somebody
04-07-2006, 11:31 PM
Avoid the Epson CX3700. It appears like it is quite cheap to run (ink wise) because of individual tanks, but it chews through ink like mad. I went through nearly 3 black cartridges (1 of which was a high-capacity cartridge) for about 500-600 pages of printing, mostly text.

JJJJJ
05-07-2006, 06:30 AM
If you do not need colour, have a look at a cheap Laser.
About three years ago I got fed up with the prices of ink cartridges so I bought a Laser.It's still running on the original toner cartridge. No mucking about with ink cartridges.

Billy T
05-07-2006, 10:07 AM
If you do need colour, buy a Canon, any Canon except the bottom of the line model with a combined ink cartridge.

Benefits of Canon:

*Reliable

*Excellent paper handling

*Good "middle of the bunch" print speed

*Excellent print quality, especially photographs. Even non-photo models do a good job on photo paper

*Individual ink cartridges, you get to use all of the ink before replacing

*Full capacity cartridges supplied from new

*Transparent cartridges so that you can see for yourself that they are full (or empty).

I an currently running my 4th and 5th Canons and have only ever had to replace them for upgrade reasons. Bought the first in 1995 for $1795!! Prices sure have come down, both in dollar terms and against inflation. You could buy a high-end colour laser for the equivalent amount in todays money.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

pctek
05-07-2006, 10:21 AM
Link: (http://dse.resultspage.com/search.php?p=R&srid=S2%2d4&lbc=dse&w=multi%20function%20printers&url=http%3a%2f%2fwww%2edse%2eco%2enz%2fcgi%2dbin%2 fdse%2estorefront%2f%5fsessionid%5f%2fProduct%2fVi ew%2fXP1410&rk=1&uid=43852464&sid=2&ts=p2&rsc=DS1A3ZPsAJnkxH45&sessionid=44aa321900900c98273fc0a87f9906d9&method=and&isort=score)
Hello team,
My Epson C41SX printer is getting old (too old, in fact) now and my dad thinks that it is time for a change.
Well........why does he? Is it having problems? Whats it too old for?

If you need a new one, fine, if its not doing what a newer would, fine, but changing it just because?
I did that once, my printer was 7 years old and started to play up. So I bought a new one. I hated it, its printing was fine but it went through ink like toilet paper. SO I sold it and bought another (working) old one which gives me 840 pages per cartridge. Cartridges cost $19.99.

I don't care about other features or even quality particularly so it suits my needs.

bob_doe_nz
05-07-2006, 11:34 AM
Well I don't seem to use my Canon i550 as much as I used to, since all my B&W is done on a laser. And my brother has a i950. Perhaps I should sell it... :nerd:

FoxyMX
05-07-2006, 12:05 PM
Another vote for Canon. :thumbs:

Poppa John
05-07-2006, 12:28 PM
Well I don't seem to use my Canon i550 as much as I used to, since all my B&W is done on a laser. And my brother has a i950. Perhaps I should sell it... :nerd:


We have a Canon i550 as well, I would give it 9 out of 10. PJ

Greg
05-07-2006, 01:14 PM
If you want long term reliability, go for an HP.

Canon = built-in obsolescence

PaulD
05-07-2006, 02:01 PM
If you want long term reliability, go for an HP.

Canon = built-in obsolescence

That's really funny.

Wasn't the core of the reliable HP laserprinter made by Canon?

Cicero
05-07-2006, 03:45 PM
I have a Ip4200 Canon.
Strange thing,I have it set on grey scale,but it tells me I have run out of colour,bit of a mystery that.

godfather
05-07-2006, 04:03 PM
Greyscale does not use black usually as black is either on or off, so no "grey".
Greyscale is achieved by using mixed colours only. So I see no mystery.

As to Canon making the HP laser engine, Canon make most or many of them I believe for many brands.

However given my past issues with Canon inkjets, while their product is quite good, their product support has failed for me. A high end ($3,500) large format inkjet had to be scrapped a few years ago when we moved to a 32 bit OS, they simply decided not to release a new driver for it. It was barely a year old.

We were so underwhelmed by the Canon response that we simply never bought any more of their product, it still affects the way I perceive them. All the HP printers just kept going, new drivers were issued as required. Canon missed out on a $200,000 upgrade of photocopiers etc within that company and are still excluded on the basis of such shoddy support.

I have 4 printers here, all HP and I have no regrets.

Cicero
05-07-2006, 04:31 PM
Why grey requires 3 colours and black I don't know.It certatainly uses black with grey scale as I have just replaced that cartridge.
Most of my printing are articles,so all I mostly require is fast grey print.
But I wont cut off my nose to spite my face if Canon wont, stop using colour.

godfather
05-07-2006, 05:09 PM
Black on its own can only print Black. Not Grey.

How can it print anything but Black?
It has to "mix" with something to get Grey
Depending on the printer it may or may not also use the Black cartridge, plus a mix of colours to dilute it to Grey.

So it does mix, (with Colour) to get Grey.

Even though I might be colour-blind, the basic concept of getting Grey from Black only escapes my logic.

Cicero
05-07-2006, 05:26 PM
Black on its own can only print Black. Not Grey.

How can it print anything but Black?
It has to "mix" with something to get Grey
Depending on the printer it may or may not also use the Black cartridge, plus a mix of colours to dilute it to Grey.

So it does mix, (with Colour) to get Grey.

Even though I might be colour-blind, the basic concept of getting Grey from Black only escapes my logic.
As far as I can see,there isn't a black option.
My thinking was,use less black on white= grey.

Renmoo
05-07-2006, 06:02 PM
Well........why does he? Is it having problems? Whats it too old for?

If you need a new one, fine, if its not doing what a newer would, fine, but changing it just because?
I did that once, my printer was 7 years old and started to play up. So I bought a new one. I hated it, its printing was fine but it went through ink like toilet paper. SO I sold it and bought another (working) old one which gives me 840 pages per cartridge. Cartridges cost $19.99.

I don't care about other features or even quality particularly so it suits my needs.
Oops, sorry for not clarifying my query. Whenever a document is printed, there are always myriads of horizontal lines right from the top until the end of it. This issue was normally easily solved by cleaning the printer head. However, that technique doesn't seem to work lately. I have tried cleaning the interior of the printer using some wet cloth, but that doesn't work either. The printer has been used for 3 years ++.

Cheers :)

pctek
05-07-2006, 08:21 PM
Whenever a document is printed, there are always myriads of horizontal lines right from the top until the end of it.
Ah. Normally requires a new print head. If it has replacable ones.

Well, whatever printer you go for, one thing I always check on - how many pages you get out of a cartridge. Some of the new ones are shocking, only 200 or so.

godfather
05-07-2006, 08:39 PM
As far as I can see,there isn't a black option.
My thinking was,use less black on white= grey.

"Less black" = pale black?
I find such "pale black" difficult to visualize also ....

Just buy more colour cartridges Cicero.
Get that gorse out of your pockets...

PaulD
05-07-2006, 08:40 PM
Black on its own can only print Black. Not Grey.

How can it print anything but Black?
It has to "mix" with something to get Grey
Depending on the printer it may or may not also use the Black cartridge, plus a mix of colours to dilute it to Grey.

So it does mix, (with Colour) to get Grey.

Even though I might be colour-blind, the basic concept of getting Grey from Black only escapes my logic.

Think newpapers.

Some of the Canon will use pigment Black by itself on plain paper modulating the number of drops of ink sprayed on the paper thus mixing with the white of the paper.

On Photo or coated papers the coloured dye inks are mixed.

AFAIK Canon have chosen their point of difference additional red and green dyes on advanced printers rather than greys

godfather
05-07-2006, 09:00 PM
Yes, I thought of newspapers, but that simply means lowering the resolution which printers tend "not" to do because it will look like poor quality.

As far as I am aware, all printers will use colour + black these days for greyscale, also they will usually use colour + black for any web based plain black text (HTML coded) as well.

Of course it's all a conspiracy to sell more ink.

dolby digital
05-07-2006, 10:18 PM
my printer was 7 years old
Mine is a 12 year old Epson. It still goes fine. Cost me, gulp, $750

Greven
05-07-2006, 10:25 PM
Mine is a 12 year old Epson. It still goes fine. Cost me, gulp, $750
$750 would have just been a mid-range model 12 years ago. I'm surprised it lasted so long. Can you still get ink cartriges for it?

plod
05-07-2006, 10:31 PM
Black on its own can only print Black. Not Grey.

How can it print anything but Black?
It has to "mix" with something to get Grey
Depending on the printer it may or may not also use the Black cartridge, plus a mix of colours to dilute it to Grey.

So it does mix, (with Colour) to get Grey.

Even though I might be colour-blind, the basic concept of getting Grey from Black only escapes my logic.
grey can be achieved by only using black, and that is to use a screen of black.
Mono laser printers do it this way and my old mono inkjet did this way.
but you are right with multicolour printers.

should have read rest of thread

dolby digital
05-07-2006, 10:37 PM
$750 would have just been a mid-range model 12 years ago. I'm surprised it lasted so long. Can you still get ink cartriges for it?
Printers were designed to last a bit longer then... maybe... I don't use the colour. I get refills now. Haven't bought an Epson cartridge for about 5 years. I think it has a "dumb" printhead as it doesn't tell you its out of ink till its really out of ink :D

plod
05-07-2006, 10:38 PM
Yes, I thought of newspapers, but that simply means lowering the resolution which printers tend "not" to do because it will look like poor quality.

As far as I am aware, all printers will use colour + black these days for greyscale, also they will usually use colour + black for any web based plain black text (HTML coded) as well.

Of course it's all a conspiracy to sell more ink.
No conspiracy, web pages are made up of RGB and not CMYK hence the need for multi colour black(correct me if I'm wrong)
We get this problem at work with wanabe designers making blacks up of more then one colour on full colour jobs

Metla
05-07-2006, 11:24 PM
All printers are crap, their purpose is to sell ink and then die.

All cheap printers have a limited lifespan, and poor print quality, More expensive ones are exactly the same but look flasher.

I suggest a pen and paper.

As for Canons, No better then anything else (talking budget models here folks) If the printer is cheap then it was built cheap. Back in the day I got in a bunch of Canon multi-function units and sold them as part of a package, Got a number of complaints about the print quality, and in all fairness it was absolute garbage.

Looked like someone sucked on a crayon,spat on the page then rubbed their hair through it.

Billy T
06-07-2006, 10:10 AM
Jeeze you're a hard man Metla, only the bottom-feeding printers are that bad, and there's more than a little hyperbole splattered over your description of print quality.

Actually, your description of the purpose of printers is not dissimilar to that of the human race i.e. we are born to spread disorder, disaster and death across the planet, briefly enhancing consumerism and conglomerate profits as we pass by, then to die and leave somebody else to mop up the trail of effluent we leave behind us and our leaking fluids, then dispose of the carcass.

Hang on a minute :confused: this was supposed to be a bitter, vicious and vitriolic attack on your glad-handed and unhelpful opinions about inkjet printers, but I think I'm beginning to like you. :horrified

Be afraid, be very very afraid!

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

PaulD
06-07-2006, 11:47 AM
Yes, I thought of newspapers, but that simply means lowering the resolution which printers tend "not" to do because it will look like poor quality.

As far as I am aware, all printers will use colour + black these days for greyscale, also they will usually use colour + black for any web based plain black text (HTML coded) as well.

Of course it's all a conspiracy to sell more ink.

I have a Canon i865 that I have defaulted to printing greyscale for most of the time. On plain paper it only uses the BCI3e-BK pigment cart (even printing web pages). This limits resolution to 600 dpi. Standard quality looks like normal laser, draft is good enough and a cart lasts about 2 reams.

Cicero
06-07-2006, 12:30 PM
"Less black" = pale black?
I find such "pale black" difficult to visualize also ....

Just buy more colour cartridges Cicero.
Get that gorse out of your pockets...
May look into a laser printer,seem reasonanbley priced these days.
All I want is cheap form of text reproduction.

JJJJJ
06-07-2006, 04:09 PM
May look into a laser printer,seem reasonanbley priced these days.
All I want is cheap form of text reproduction.

Been useing a laser for three years. Works perfectly and not a penny spent on ink cartridges

Graham L
06-07-2006, 04:25 PM
GF: you don't mix black with a colour to get grey. You mix black with (another non-colour ;)) white (paper) to get grey. The fineness of the screen (or dot scatter in an inkjet) makes the process more or less visible.

The reason for having black as well as primary colours in inkjets is that the "black" made by mixing (subtracting) the primary complements is never black enough. It looks terrible and muddy. CMYK has black (K) for that reason. A "laser" printer might not need a black toner because they use addition of opaque pigments, rather than subtraction of translucent dyes.

On a monitor, which adds R, G, and B, you get the best black achievable on the screen by turning them all off.

Cicero
06-07-2006, 04:53 PM
I thought as much.
I doubted you mixed say red and black to get grey.

godfather
06-07-2006, 06:22 PM
Are you picking on me because I am colour blind....? :dogeye:

But I suspect you may be right, I was thinking of RGB not CMK (too many years of colour TV study is my excuse...)

Grey is r200, g200, b200 on the PC .....

Are you saying that the printer will use black "a bit" only to reproduce that, because that does not seem to happen. They seem to want the colour cartridge....

Graham L
06-07-2006, 06:39 PM
Picking on you GF? :confused: I wouldn't dare. :dogeye:

Your RGB grey is "half-black" (or "half-white" if you're an optimist), and you can produce the grey scale between black and white by varying the "number" (which is the same for all three guns).

The thought occurs: Does an LCD screen use CMY rather than RGB? They are transmitting light, rather than emitting it, so they would have to use subtraction.

The major difference is in the way dyes and pigments work as the colour agents.

A lot of inkjets do insist on having a complete set of ink cartridges to work at all. Even though the printer manufacturers make their money by selling ink, many problems can come from running out of ink. Apart from clogging of the printheads, thermal ones can burn out if they are fired without ink to cool the elements. The piezo ones are probably immune from that but the pores are so small that they would dry out and clog very quickly.

(Of course, my reference to a "laser" printer in my last posting was to a colour one; black only ones use a software equivalent of the traditional screen technique to get "halftones").

plod
06-07-2006, 06:49 PM
GF: you don't mix black with a colour to get grey. You mix black with (another non-colour ;)) white (paper) to get grey. The fineness of the screen (or dot scatter in an inkjet) makes the process more or less visible.

The reason for having black as well as primary colours in inkjets is that the "black" made by mixing (subtracting) the primary complements is never black enough. It looks terrible and muddy. CMYK has black (K) for that reason. A "laser" printer might not need a black toner because they use addition of opaque pigments, rather than subtraction of translucent dyes.

On a monitor, which adds R, G, and B, you get the best black achievable on the screen by turning them all off.
When printing greys(not grey scale) you are using the range of cmyk. Have a look under a eye glass or pick a grey in photoshop and have a look what it is made up of.
P.S Cicero you can make greys up of mixing black and red or blue for that matter.

Billy T
06-07-2006, 08:51 PM
When printing greys(not grey scale) you are using the range of cmyk. Have a look under a eye glass or pick a grey in photoshop and have a look what it is made up of.
P.S Cicero you can make greys up of mixing black and red or blue for that matter.

I hate to pop your bubble Plod, but if printing grey scale requires colour, somebody forgot to tell my monochrome laser, or a monochrome inkjet. They do greyscale just fine. Grey is just less ink on white paper. We are not mixing light here, this is subtractive colour mixing, relying on the absorption of light, not additive as in colour TV.

You lose your perspective if you get your nose too close to the problem. :D

The only inkjet I know of that needed colour to print grey was the very early HP that didn't have a black cartridge at all and produced an awful-looking grey-green "black" for text and even worse colour rendition.

Metla would have loved it, but he was probably just finishing school back then.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

plod
06-07-2006, 09:43 PM
I hate to pop your bubble Plod, but if printing grey scale requires colour, somebody forgot to tell my monochrome laser, or a monochrome inkjet. They do greyscale just fine. Grey is just less ink on white paper. We are not mixing light here, this is subtractive colour mixing, relying on the absorption of light, not additive as in colour TV.

You lose your perspective if you get your nose too close to the problem. :D

The only inkjet I know of that needed colour to print grey was the very early HP that didn't have a black cartridge at all and produced an awful-looking grey-green "black" for text and even worse colour rendition.

Metla would have loved it, but he was probably just finishing school back then.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)
You obviously didn't read my earlier post (http://pressf1.co.nz/showthread.php?t=70465&page=3&pp=10) , I know where you are coming from, but there is a difference to printing grey and printing greyscale.
This is how I make my living, Grey is not just less ink on white paper.

Cicero
06-07-2006, 10:33 PM
The fact is I am losing colour when I am set on greyscale.
Canon Ip4200.

zqwerty
06-07-2006, 10:34 PM
"Oops, sorry for not clarifying my query. Whenever a document is printed, there are always myriads of horizontal lines right from the top until the end of it. This issue was normally easily solved by cleaning the printer head. However, that technique doesn't seem to work lately. I have tried cleaning the interior of the printer using some (a) wet cloth, but that doesn't work either. The printer has been used for 3 years ++."

Good clear writing, Jameskan, esp: "myriads of horizontal lines"

"Actually, your description of the purpose of printers is not dissimilar to that of the human race i.e. we are born to spread disorder, disaster and death across the planet, briefly enhancing consumerism and conglomerate profits as we pass by, then to die and leave somebody else to mop up the trail of effluent we leave behind us and our leaking fluids, then dispose of the carcass."

Brilliant and inspired, Billy T

Cicero
06-07-2006, 10:45 PM
Makes one wonder why some bother being here,with such a jaundiced view of the human race.

Billy T
06-07-2006, 11:03 PM
This is how I make my living, Grey is not just less ink on white paper.

Well, I did read your post, but since a monochrome printer can produce a very good greyscale, I guess you might just have to explain to me and anybody else who might be interested what else it uses besides varying levels of black toner or ink on white paper. Similarly for monochrome photographs, which produce excellent gradation from black to white, all without the help of coloured pigments.

I'm not saying you can't introduce colour into the mix, but what I am saying is that you don't need coloured inks or pigments to produce a perfect monochrome greyscale, and I have a pretty good background in both additive and subtractive colour mixing, including commercial colour printing, going back many years before inkjet printers.

So to settle the matter, how about you explain what is deficient about the black ink/pigment version, and how adding colour improves it. Stay away from the warmer monochrome colour temperatures though, you can't produce those with just black, but then they are not true greyscale either.

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :confused:

Renmoo
06-07-2006, 11:20 PM
Uhm, for those who are still interested in the outcome of what printer will I buy, I have bought HP Deskjet 380 All-in-one series at Noel Leeming. The reason that I didn't buy that older model is because both DSE and Noel Leeming have run out of stock. The price of that newer printer is not much different from the older model; compare $110 (including free USB 2 cable + it is a newer model) to $100 (No USB cable and it is an older model).

I did have a chuckle yesterday when I found that one of the moderators has shifted this thread from the Chat section to the PressF1 section. :D Looks like it is more than just an oridinary opinion-seeking thread.

Cheers :)

Renmoo
06-07-2006, 11:23 PM
Good clear writing, Jameskan, esp: "myriads of horizontal lines"

Thanks zqwerty. Initially I was at doubt whether to use the word "myriads". This is because it sounded informal to me, but I decided to use it anyway, since Laura frequently uses it.

Cheers :)

plod
06-07-2006, 11:49 PM
Well, I did read your post, but since a monochrome printer can produce a very good greyscale, I guess you might just have to explain to me and anybody else who might be interested what else it uses besides varying levels of black toner or ink on white paper. Similarly for monochrome photographs, which produce excellent gradation from black to white, all without the help of coloured pigments.

I'm not saying you can't introduce colour into the mix, but what I am saying is that you don't need coloured inks or pigments to produce a perfect monochrome greyscale, and I have a pretty good background in both additive and subtractive colour mixing, including commercial colour printing, going back many years before inkjet printers.

So to settle the matter, how about you explain what is deficient about the black ink/pigment version, and how adding colour improves it. Stay away from the warmer monochrome colour temperatures though, you can't produce those with just black, but then they are not true greyscale either.

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :confused:
Well BT if I was to explain in my own words I would cock it up, so have a read of this (http://desktoppub.about.com/od/scanninggraphics/ss/color_to_bw_6.htm) .
Simply saying that grey is a percentage of black is wrong, the same as saying cyan or magenta alone can reproduce all shades of blue or red purely by altering the percentage of dot
PS i never stated you needed to add a colout to print grey in a monchrome printer in fact in my first post I think I even mentioned screens.

plod
06-07-2006, 11:54 PM
Uhm, for those who are still interested in the outcome of what printer will I buy, I have bought HP Deskjet 380 All-in-one series at Noel Leeming. The reason that I didn't buy that older model is because both DSE and Noel Leeming have run out of stock. The price of that newer printer is not much different from the older model; compare $110 (including free USB 2 cable + it is a newer model) to $100 (No USB cable and it is an older model).

I did have a chuckle yesterday when I found that one of the moderators has shifted this thread from the Chat section to the PressF1 section. :D Looks like it is more than just an oridinary opinion-seeking thread.

Cheers :)
That's pretty cheap. Does it have the individual ink cartridges or the all in one?
Have you tried printing photo with yet? might look at one for myself at that price

zqwerty
07-07-2006, 12:16 AM
Cicero, have you never heard of Socio-biology? "The genes have reasons that reason does not know".

Renmoo
07-07-2006, 01:06 AM
That's pretty cheap. Does it have the individual ink cartridges or the all in one?
Have you tried printing photo with yet? might look at one for myself at that price
Well, it was not exactly $110; technically, the printer is priced $120 on the display, but the person who recommended it gave me a $10 discount. It comes with two trial cartridges (i.e. one black and one colour), which, according to him contain only half of what the normal ones have. He also mentioned that up to 400 black and white pages can be printed using a normal ink cartridge. Black ink cartridge is sold for $25, while colour ones are sold for $35, which is pretty expensive, IMO. However, this doesn't affect me as my mom will buy me those way cheaper ones from overseas. :D

Yes and no, I have tried printing a photo, but not on a glossy paper (practising my 6th sense, :D ). The quality is not too bad, I guess. I printed it on an A4 paper.

Cheers :)

Cicero
07-07-2006, 11:48 AM
Cicero, have you never heard of Socio-biology? "The genes have reasons that reason does not know".
How do we know that we don't know?

Cicero
07-07-2006, 11:53 AM
Must say,the pendant seems to be on to to it.(re grey scale)
As for the rest,seems to be a lot of guess work going on.

zqwerty
07-07-2006, 04:20 PM
@Cicero

The problems start when you don't know that you don't know and think that you do.

Read the quote again.

Graham L
07-07-2006, 04:32 PM
Black, white, and grey are neutral. Adding various amounts of black and white to colours, gives shades of colours. Adding black to a colour might give a "neutral shade". But you can't get a true grey scale that way.

Much of the colours we see aren't produced in accordance with colour theory, anyway. We haven't got pure primary colours available. And we don't have many ways of mixing them to produce a uniform colour. All we have, on paper or a CRT, is an approximation.

If you can see dots of different colours which have to be "mixed" in your eye, the approximations aren't very good. The only printers which give proper colours by mixing are the dye-sublimation ones.

If a customer insists on an exact colour, the printer can use an ink of that colour. The Pantone system was produced for this purpose. The three colour process is just not good enough.

Cicero
07-07-2006, 06:09 PM
@Cicero

The problems start when you don't know that you don't know and think that you do.

Read the quote again.
I would if it lead me to salvation, halelooya! brother.

zqwerty
07-07-2006, 06:21 PM
This is the exact opposite of anything to do with god (deliberate lower case).

zqwerty
07-07-2006, 06:56 PM
See here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociobiological

Laura
07-07-2006, 08:05 PM
I'm finding it hard to progress past Cicero's "pendant" 6 posts ago...

Been hanging out anywhere interesting lately, Graham?

gum digger
07-07-2006, 11:33 PM
Epson CX5700F.

Loving it so farr

Cicero
08-07-2006, 07:32 AM
I'm finding it hard to progress past Cicero's "pendant" 6 posts ago...

Been hanging out anywhere interesting lately, Graham?
I'm on his ignore list so he won't have noticed..Mrs Pedant.

dolby digital
08-07-2006, 12:29 PM
compare $110 (including free USB 2 cable + it is a newer model)

Free USB cable... you would think the cost of one usb cable to a large printer manufacturer, would be nothing. Printers are next to useless without a cable.

Includes free printer cartridges :rolleyes:

Cicero
08-07-2006, 12:34 PM
Free USB cable... you would think the cost of one usb cable to a large printer manufacturer, would be nothing. Printers are next to useless without a cable.

Includes free printer cartridges :rolleyes:
You know your stuff,I find it hard to connect printer sans cable too. :thumbs:

Renmoo
08-07-2006, 12:39 PM
Free USB cable... you would think the cost of one usb cable to a large printer manufacturer, would be nothing.

Includes free printer cartridges :rolleyes:
I... errr, don't quite get what you mean there. 1m USB cable is sold for around 10 dollars in DSE. Since older model is priced at $98 and does not include a USB cable, therefore I reckon it is wiser and better to get the newer model, which cost $110 because it comes with a USB cable.

Includes free half-of-the-normal-amount printer cartridges. :rolleyes:

dolby digital
08-07-2006, 01:12 PM
I... errr, don't quite get what you mean there. 1m USB cable is sold for around 10 dollars in DSE. Since older model is priced at $98 and does not include a USB cable, therefore I reckon it is wiser and better to get the newer model, which cost $110 because it comes with a USB cable.

Includes free half-of-the-normal-amount printer cartridges. :rolleyes:

Sorry, it wasn't specific to your situation. It was just a general comment that some pinters don't include a USB cable. That fine if the price reflects that and it states on the box that no cables are included, as I know of one person who was told by the shop that the printer inluded a USB cable and it didn't so she had to go straight back to the shop and get one.

Cicero
08-07-2006, 01:18 PM
Sorry, it wasn't specific to your situation. It was just a general comment that some Pinter's don't include a USB cable. That fine if the price reflects that and it states on the box that no cables are included, as I know of one person who was told by the shop that the printer included a USB cable and it didn't so she had to go straight back to the shop and get one.
Goodness me,that would be a nuisance. :thumbs:

zqwerty
08-07-2006, 01:22 PM
"snarky"

(informal) irritable, crotchety, impertinent, critical

Cicero
08-07-2006, 01:26 PM
"snarky"

(informal) irritable, crotchety, impertinent, critical
If you are feeling like that,try and pull yourself together lad.
And remember a stiff upper lip.

godfather
08-07-2006, 01:36 PM
Includes free half-of-the-normal-amount printer cartridges. :rolleyes:

The last HP printer I purchased was supplied with full cartridges, which surprised me, as they have an option of low-yeild or high-yeild cartridges when purchasing new ones.

According to the cartidge number type supplied it was the high yield ones, I fully expected the low yied ones. The consumables advertised with the printer only mentioned the low yield versions, to make it look as though it was cheap to run.

I also expected no USB cable and was surprised to discover both a USB 2.0 cable and an Ethernet cable were supplied, although no reference was made to these being included in the box.

So the "half-of-the-normal-amount" cartridge could be an off-the-shelf option in many cases. Of course they cost half as much.

And do cheer up Cicero, or we will see you starring in the TV series "grumpy old men". Just buy the ink and stop growling. It's only money. Just because you paid too much for your camera, please don't let it get you down for so long...

Cicero
08-07-2006, 02:05 PM
The last HP printer I purchased was supplied with full cartridges, which surprised me, as they have an option of low-yeild or high-yield cartridges when purchasing new ones.

According to the cartridge number type supplied it was the high yield ones, I fully expected the low yield ones. The consumables advertised with the printer only mentioned the low yield versions, to make it look as though it was cheap to run.

I also expected no USB cable and was surprised to discover both a USB 2.0 cable and an Ethernet cable were supplied, although no reference was made to these being included in the box.

So the "half-of-the-normal-amount" cartridge could be an off-the-shelf option in many cases. Of course they cost half as much.

And do cheer up Cicero, or we will see you starring in the TV series "grumpy old men". Just buy the ink and stop growling. It's only money. Just because you paid too much for your camera, please don't let it get you down for so long...
No doubt about you Godfather,you always see the best side.
I have bought 3 cartridges of colour for the princely sum of $74 and I still cant understand how they have been used up with only using grey scale.I shall keep a close eye on this new lot.
This new camera with all the 06 tech is so good,one has to feel sorry for those that have to put with the old tech,we feel for you. :rolleyes:

zqwerty
08-07-2006, 02:17 PM
@Cicero

"lad" - I have a 10 y.o. Grandson, my daughter is 33.

As we used to say in the 60's, "PEACE" brother V \w/

Cicero
08-07-2006, 02:29 PM
@Cicero

"lad" - I have a 10 y.o. Grandson, my daughter is 33.

As we used to say in the 60's, "PEACE" brother V \w/
The main thing is my dear fellow,I hope you are feeling more relaxed after following my advise.

SurferJoe46
08-07-2006, 03:48 PM
grey can be achieved by only using black, and that is to use a screen of black.
Mono laser printers do it this way and my old mono inkjet did this way.
but you are right with multicolour printers.

should have read rest of thread

Got a couple of old Canons here (BJC-1000, and BJC-240) that are one-cartridge types. You can use either (1) one 3-color cart, or one (1) black cart but not both at the same time..they have no provision to use the black with the 3-color cart.

One can print black or shades of grey with either type..although the black whilst using the color cart is muddy.

So far, I have refilled the black carts about 30 times each with no appreciable deterioration of pattern or control. Maybe I'll try mixing my own ink later on too.

I also have a friend and his wife in the professional photography business doing weddings and such.....and they use Epsons with multiple bottles of ink feeding with long tubes to the heads.

I swear that they must have 10 different colors plus black feeding some of their machines!

Another friend uses an Epson AIO that prints many times better than I ever though it would. I has individual carts for seperate colors (YCM) + Black.

The nice thing is that that Epson can shut off the colors while it runs in black mode only. That saves a lot of ink. Greyscale is primarily a black cart with modulation process, as you can pull the color carts and still print greyscale.

...makes me wonder what all the problem is. Seems the use-or-doesn't-use the colors to make grey or black depends on the manufacturer.

Prescott
08-07-2006, 04:18 PM
Well its too late now but I have a Brother DCP 115c and its awsome, its really good. Indivual ink tanks for the colours.Quick printing speed, and a good scanner. Its about $100 now.

I did see at the Warehouse Stationary yesterday that they have black and white laser printers for $100, its a Xerox too.

Billy T
08-07-2006, 05:20 PM
Well BT if I was to explain in my own words I would cock it up, so have a read of this (http://desktoppub.about.com/od/scanninggraphics/ss/color_to_bw_6.htm) .
Simply saying that grey is a percentage of black is wrong, the same as saying cyan or magenta alone can reproduce all shades of blue or red purely by altering the percentage of dot.
Well plod, that link says exactly what I have been trying to get through all along. Grey is just less black ink on the paper, I didn't think it necessary to go into the theory any deeper, but to be fair the linked page explains it well enough.

However, the situation is quite different for printing colour. If you want to vary the saturation of a specific colour you use less ink on the paper (by means already covered for greyscale) but if you want to change the shade or tint of that colour you have to mix elements of other colours in with it.

That is subtractive colour mixing, because each colour added absorbs all wavelengths of light except those of the colour by which it is commonly known, i.e. red reflects the wavelength we perceive as "red" to our eyes and absorbs all other wavelengths.

To mix light you use additive mixing, which is why CRT and LCD screens output light in the three primary colours only: red, blue and green (RGB). Black is the absence of light output. Incidentally, the blackest any screen type can get is the colour you see when it is turned off, usually a medium grey-green. Black is a subjective impression produced by the contrast between illuminated pixels and those that are switched off. It is mildy amusing to see screen reviewers speaking of "crisp deep blacks" when the only issue is contrast. Think about how movies are shown on a white screen and you will get the picture, that's why movie theatres have to be dark.

The primary colours for subtractive printing are cyan, magenta and yellow, which are the complementary colours of red, green and blue; and black is produced (poorly) by mixing CMY or (better) by using a K (black) cartridge, hence inkjets using CMYK systems.

I stand 100% behind my original statement that inkjet printers do not need to use colour to print greyscale, and I will go further and say that if they do inject colour into the mix, they will be unable to produce a true monochrome greyscale rendition because no mixing of CMY will ever produce a genuine black, or a true monochrome grey.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

Cicero
08-07-2006, 05:35 PM
There are some that would argue that...........
Greyscale does not use black usually as black is either on or off, so no "grey".
Greyscale is achieved by using mixed colours only. So I see no mystery.

Dear me.............

Billy T
08-07-2006, 07:14 PM
There are some that would argue that...........Greyscale does not use black usually as black is either on or off, so no "grey". Greyscale is achieved by using mixed colours only. So I see no mystery. Dear me.............
Sorry Ciccy, you couldn't be more wrong.

To understand how greyscale works, you have to differentiate between printing (subtractive mixing of light using colour pigments) and projection (additive mixing of light using RGB emitters).

Greyscale is black diluted by varying levels of white (which is all colours of the rainbow combined). Note that black does not appear in the rainbow :D

How that dilution is achieved varies according to the means of producing and viewing the image. Greyscale can't be produced by any variation of colours, but before you pick me up on the point, white light is a mix of all the colours in proportion, so technically, and in printing terms, when you view shades of grey, coloured light is being reflected in true rainbow proportions to provide the white light needed to subjectively dilute black to grey.

However, in printing you will not (cannot) produce a true monochrome outcome by mixing coloured pigments. You are fighting the laws of nature here, not the wiles of printer or ink manufacturers.

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :nerd:

Edit: Point noted Ciccy: "Some would argue"

Cicero
08-07-2006, 07:22 PM
Sorry Ciccy, you couldn't be more wrong.

To understand how grey scale works, you have to differentiate between printing (subtractive mixing of light using colour pigments) and projection (additive mixing of light using RGB emitters).

Grey scale is black diluted by varying levels of white (which is all colours of the rainbow combined). Note that black does not appear in the rainbow :D

How that dilution is achieved varies according to the means of producing and viewing the image. Grey scale can't be produced by any variation of colours, but before you pick me up on the point, white light is a mix of all the colours in proportion, so technically, and in printing terms, when you view shades of grey, coloured light is being reflected in true rainbow proportions to provide the white light needed to subjectively dilute black to grey.

However, in printing you will not (cannot) produce a true monochrome outcome by mixing coloured pigments. You are fighting the laws of nature here, not the wiles of printer or ink manufacturers.

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :nerd:
B,you did't note,I said some of us think that,I won't mention who.
I assumed through brilliant reasoning,that all you have said is the case,well done old boy. ;)

godfather
08-07-2006, 08:02 PM
Perhaps it is best summed up here, Cicero:

http://www.inksaver.com/printer-info-center/inkjet-insider.html

"When users print in grayscale on most inkjets, their printer uses color ink as well. The same goes when printing black text on some inkjets color is added, to make the black look deeper. Sometimes, printing a draft in black and white or grayscale doesn't save as much ink as you think."

I don't really care why it does it, but it does.
Being fairly colour-blind a lot of colours look grey-like to me anyway...

I use a mono laser (HP LaserJet 2100) for 90% of what I do. I use a colour inkjet for reports and presentations, as the "density" of the black is superior, for reasons in the link above (and also because my reports usually have colour images embedded).

Certainly the laser is cheaper per page (a $89 toner yields about 6,000-8,000 pages for me, and includes a new drum) but I dont worry about the inkjet costs. The output cost of a typical report can often be several hundred $ per page in research, data and consultancy costs, so an extra few cents for printing is not really an issue as I see it. If it was just for "general home use" I would just have a low-end laser for non-colour use, but I would ensure it's one where the toner includes a new drum. That's not a Brother...

Also I prefer to use 100 gsm clay based paper for the inkjets, which is not cheap, particularly if it's the A3 large format inkjet.

Greven
08-07-2006, 10:21 PM
Well its too late now but I have a Brother DCP 115c and its awsome, its really good. Indivual ink tanks for the colours.Quick printing speed, and a good scanner. Its about $100 now.

I did see at the Warehouse Stationary yesterday that they have black and white laser printers for $100, its a Xerox too.

I've got a 110C & it is crap.

Good to see they have improved newer models

plod
08-07-2006, 10:53 PM
Perhaps it is best summed up here, Cicero:

http://www.inksaver.com/printer-info-center/inkjet-insider.html

"When users print in grayscale on most inkjets, their printer uses color ink as well. The same goes when printing black text on some inkjets color is added, to make the black look deeper. Sometimes, printing a draft in black and white or grayscale doesn't save as much ink as you think."

I don't really care why it does it, but it does.
Being fairly colour-blind a lot of colours look grey-like to me anyway...

I use a mono laser (HP LaserJet 2100) for 90% of what I do. I use a colour inkjet for reports and presentations, as the "density" of the black is superior, for reasons in the link above (and also because my reports usually have colour images embedded).

Certainly the laser is cheaper per page (a $89 toner yields about 6,000-8,000 pages for me, and includes a new drum) but I dont worry about the inkjet costs. The output cost of a typical report can often be several hundred $ per page in research, data and consultancy costs, so an extra few cents for printing is not really an issue as I see it. If it was just for "general home use" I would just have a low-end laser for non-colour use, but I would ensure it's one where the toner includes a new drum. That's not a Brother...

Also I prefer to use 100 gsm clay based paper for the inkjets, which is not cheap, particularly if it's the A3 large format inkjet.
So what you are saying GF is that both Billy and I are both correct and wrong at the same time :waughh: ?

godfather
09-07-2006, 12:29 AM
So what you are saying GF is that both Billy and I are both correct and wrong at the same time :waughh: ?

Beggared if I know Plod.

I always understood they used colour to improve greyscale.
I thought that is what you were saying as well, but now I am terminally bewildered.

I happily concede that they may not have to do so in theory, but that does not alter the fact that in practice that they do.

But, on the bright side, it's Cicero's money and ink being used, so all's well in the world?

Cicero
09-07-2006, 09:32 AM
Beggared if I know Plod.

I always understood they used colour to improve greyscale.
I thought that is what you were saying as well, but now I am terminally bewildered.

I happily concede that they may not have to do so in theory, but that does not alter the fact that in practice that they do.

But, on the bright side, it's Cicero's money and ink being used, so all's well in the world?
I consider it one of the functions in life,is to make all feel well with the world.

I doubt BT will intervene,so this should come to a rest.