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B.M.
04-07-2006, 05:49 PM
Yesterday a friend pulled up the drive and announced, “Here, I’ve a couple of computers you can have” and then took off. Whilst I was initially very pleased with my windfall, it wasn’t long before I realised they were both “Apples”. (Who was it once said “Beware of those who come bearing gifts”) :D

Now, the problem is I have never seen an Apple going, let alone turned one on, or used one, so you can see I am starting at somewhat of a disadvantage. Anyway, I decided to be cautious and have a little peek inside before powering up in case I was looking at a fire risk or worse. Well, getting into the darn thing without resorting to a can opener, or gas axe, qualified me for MENSA membership. I recon they beat some of those old Compaq’s for difficulty obtaining access but we’re there with no damage done. Actually I’m quite impressed with some of the engineering. :thumbs:

But to cut to the chase, what is the interchangeability between Apple & PC? The HDD looks the same although I understand it runs a quite a different format. (Could it be reformatted to run in a PC computer?) It has a couple of sticks of Kingston SDRAM which look like they may work in a PC computer and the power supply looks like 5 & 12 volt but I can check that when I power it up.

So what do I need to know about these things before I needlessly stuff something? :badpc:

Can anyone suggest a site that explains the difference between the two systems?

I’ll retire now and await the flack. :lol:

gibler
04-07-2006, 06:12 PM
Mac IDE or (or SATA) hard drives should be interchangeable. I just replace dead (usually Western Disaster) drives with standard old Seagate ones. The RAM is just normal PC stuff unless you have a real old mac. Again, just throw in PC stuff into macs lacking in the RAM department (and OS X loves RAM) - can text with the OS X version of memtest.

Power supplies are not ya standard PC ones (they vary even between very similar models of macs).

apple.com has the take apart guides on their website to lessen the mysteries.

Of course with macbook and macbook pros they are pretty much just PCs and can run Windows XP as such.

BIOS (firmware/nvram etc etc) are all Apple stuff.

Any old USB keyboard and mouse works..

I'll let you learn for youself now young grasshopper.....

dolby digital
04-07-2006, 07:18 PM
The older Mac's used scsi hard drives which you can use, but you need a scsi controller on a pc (unless its a server motherboard). I'd dust them out them boot them and see what happens.

plod
04-07-2006, 08:24 PM
everymac (www.everymac.com) , should be able to tell

B.M.
05-07-2006, 11:37 AM
Ok guys here’s where I’m up to.

I’ve followed all your instructions and have come up with the following. (That link's a good one Plod) :thumbs:

Both machines are Power Macintosh G3’s but the actual version and processor speed are yet to be determined.

When I powered one up all looked fine, the screen came on and I was advised that Mac OS 9.1 was loading. A progress line run across the screen for a minute but nothing further. (If this was a PC machine my guess would be it was waiting for a LAN connection and I’d be looking at the BIOS for a clue.)

So, any suggestions on this one, and a couple of other questions for luck.

1: I guess they must have a BIOS and CMOS Setup but how do you access it?

2: The FDD’s are oddball in that they don’t have a power connection. Are they powered by the ribbon cable?

3: Can you boot one of these machines from a floppy?

4: What sort of format does the floppy have, and how do you make a boot disk? (Especially give we don’t have a working machine) (yet :) )

5: If you guys’ were in my position where would you start, given what we already know? :cool:

plod
05-07-2006, 11:50 AM
I don't know os9 very well at all, These G3's have floppy drives do they?
Any disc's come with machines

B.M.
05-07-2006, 12:40 PM
Yep, these ones have floppy’s but the ribbon cable is much smaller than on a PC machine and no power cable! Queer! :confused:

Oh, they also have a CD Rom.

And no disks at all. :(

Wonder if Linux might work on one? :confused:

Safari
05-07-2006, 12:42 PM
Try this to start with.

http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=16473

Safari
05-07-2006, 12:56 PM
The first item on that link is the one to try first.
Start with extensions off - it is a bit like Win starting in safe mode
Hold Shift key down while starting and if it starts up go to Apple menu/Control panels/Extensions manager
Select OS 9 base set and restart.
This selects the basic OS 9 extensions without any extensions which may have been added by other software installs that may be causing a conflict.

gibler
05-07-2006, 02:56 PM
Er, which type of G3? A beige G3 (either Desktop case or tower case), an iMac G3 or a G3 Tower (blue and white case) ?

B.M.
05-07-2006, 03:24 PM
Tried that Safari. Got a message that the system was loading without extensions but in the end no difference. I then noticed a little micro-switch on the Motherboard that said Reset. Hmm, I wonder if it resets the BIOS so I pushed it! Well, I think it must have because it’s now complaining about the time and date being wrong but hasn’t offered me a way to adjust them. Still no overall difference though. :rolleyes:
The message actually reads “Your Macintosh clock is set to a year before 1975 etc….”

They’re both beige desktops gibler. There’s a date of 1997 on the MB if that helps. :)

Safari
05-07-2006, 04:09 PM
Tried that Safari. Got a message that the system was loading without extensions but in the end no difference. I then noticed a little micro-switch on the Motherboard that said Reset. Hmm, I wonder if it resets the BIOS so I pushed it! Well, I think it must have because it’s now complaining about the time and date being wrong but hasn’t offered me a way to adjust them. Still no overall difference though. :rolleyes:
The message actually reads “Your Macintosh clock is set to a year before 1975 etc….”

They’re both beige desktops gibler. There’s a date of 1997 on the MB if that helps. :)

That switch resets the PRAM on your mother board. The PRAM stores lots of critical information like hardware addresses for all of your installed cards and it also stores information such as the Date and Time.

When you tried loading without extensions did it come up with any error messages or flashing question marks or other indications.
Sounds as if you may need to try to boot from an OS 9 CD to try some repairs or even a reinstall.

B.M.
05-07-2006, 04:39 PM
No error messages, ? ! or the like. Just a wallpaper with what I guess are Apple Hieroglyphics on it.

No Icons either.

I wouldn't be surprised if something has been done to them prior to dumping.

Can you buy these disks on "Trade Me?"

Safari
05-07-2006, 05:01 PM
No error messages, ? ! or the like. Just a wallpaper with what I guess are Apple Hieroglyphics on it.

No Icons either.

I wouldn't be surprised if something has been done to them prior to dumping.

Can you buy these disks on "Trade Me?"

If you have a wallpaper it sounds as if you have actually started up and your screen resolution may be out and is hiding the HDD icon and top menu.

Try pressing any number key once along the top of your keyboard, this will select the HDD icon.
Hold down the Apple Key and press letter O on keyboard
This may open the hard disk if the computer has actually started.

B.M.
05-07-2006, 06:42 PM
Woooooooh, we have lift off! Now for the major malfunction! :blush:

OK, doing as you suggested Safari brought up "FileMaker Pro 6 Folder".

On the top of that are three Icons. Looking like an envelope – Bar Graph – Clock, in that order.

Crashing around in here only produces “Library FP5” could not be found. Please locate……………………etc.

I guess something is running but something is missing???? :rolleyes:

Character building stuff! :D

Safari
05-07-2006, 07:40 PM
Woooooooh, we have lift off! Now for the major malfunction! :blush:

OK, doing as you suggested Safari brought up "FileMaker Pro 6 Folder".

On the top of that are three Icons. Looking like an envelope – Bar Graph – Clock, in that order.

Crashing around in here only produces “Library FP5” could not be found. Please locate……………………etc.

I guess something is running but something is missing???? :rolleyes:

Character building stuff! :D

What is missing is you are not able to see all of the desktop, and menu probably because the screen resolution needs adjusting.
They are there, when you went to Apple key and O it was the Filemaker program that was selected and as a result opened.
Are you using a Mac Display or something else. Try and adjust the resolution so the complete desktop fits the screen and you will then be able to see a menu and the Hard disk icon.

B.M.
05-07-2006, 09:11 PM
The plot thickens. :annoyed:

I have no idea how to adjust the resolution, as I can’t right click on the desktop or get to control panel or whatever.

So, I swapped machines and the second one was exactly the same.

However, whilst thrashing around pushing everything in site a little square box popped up showing “Macintosh HD” & “Trash”.

Highlighting Macintosh HD and clicking OPEN produces FileMaker Pro 5.5 Folder – Library Files and System Folder. So far so good. Within System folder there are some 33 other folders starting with ActiveX controls and finishing with Voices.

Now for the crunch. There are no contents when you open any of these folders. Whether they’re hidden, I don’t know, but I suspect that someone had deleted everything except what they weren’t allowed to because they were in use and access was denied.

Just a theory though, but for your consideration anyway.

I really think we’re looking at a Format and reinstall but I guess we’re going to need some disks to do that. Might have to enlist the help of the “Computer Mafia”. :D

gibler
05-07-2006, 09:38 PM
Heh, yeah they probably just tried to drag stuff into the trash, instead of doing it correctly (i.e. boot off a CD and use the disk utility). There is probably a Finder file still there (it wouldn't have been deleted as it would be "in use") and at that point the move to trash procedure would halt.

Find some full versions of OS 9 on CD.. or you can legally download all 19 disks here (http://download.info.apple.com/Apple_Support_Area/Apple_Software_Updates/English-North_American/Macintosh/System/Older_System/System_7.5_Version_7.5.3/) :D

Safari
05-07-2006, 09:43 PM
Does not sound good.
If you can access Mac HD and everything is normal you should be able to double click on it to get to System Folder
In System folder double click on Apple Menu Items
Double click on Control Panels
Double click on Monitors to get to resolution adjustment

If you can get control panels open try opening Extensions Manager and selecting OS 9 base set and restart.

Also in Mac HD is Utilities
If you can open it go to Disk First Aid and run that.

There are OS 9 Install CD's for sale on Trademe if you need one.

B.M.
06-07-2006, 09:13 AM
Looking at the 19 floppy’s as an option gibler, can I download them to normal preformatted floppys, and if so, can I expect the Apple to read them? :confused:

(You can see how little I know about these things) :blush:

I’ve just tried to get to the HDD again Safari but having no luck. God knows what key combination got me there previously.

Persevere, persevere, I must persevere, but have breakfast first. :D

Safari
06-07-2006, 10:47 AM
Looking at the 19 floppy’s as an option gibler, can I download them to normal preformatted floppys, and if so, can I expect the Apple to read them? :confused:

(You can see how little I know about these things) :blush:

I’ve just tried to get to the HDD again Safari but having no luck. God knows what key combination got me there previously.

Persevere, persevere, I must persevere, but have breakfast first. :D

You are wasting your time trying to download to floppy's, apart from the fact that it is a tricky procedure system 7.5 is an ancient operating system and will be of no use to you and you would still need a CD to upgrade to OS 9 to be able to use anything useful. I don't even think you could install 7.5 on a G3 as it doesn't contain the resources necessary to enable it to startup under system 7.5

Try and get OS 9 on cd. Ask your friend who gave you the computers if he has any install disks you can use.

B.M.
06-07-2006, 11:25 AM
Ahhhh, right, no disks Safari as these machines were supposed to go to the dump, not my place, although, I can understand the confusion. ;)

My thinking at the moment is to try Ubuntu. (I Cant find any Mac OS on Trade Me) :(

However, given that I know less about Linux than I do about Apple (you didn’t think that was possible now did you?) you can imagine the depth of my despair. :D

Safari
06-07-2006, 11:40 AM
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Computers/Apple/Software/auction-62070932.htm

B.M.
06-07-2006, 05:59 PM
Thanks for that Safari. Wonder why I couldn’t find it? :cool:

Now, decisions decisions, he wants about 11 handles for the disk and it will probably give me a bigger headache than the contents of the handles. :rolleyes:

I think I’ll sleep on it. :)

Morgenmuffel
06-07-2006, 06:29 PM
I'll show my idiocy here in regards to linux on the mac, but i though you had to have a MacOS installed to enable you to install linux something to do with the way it boots?


Any way Ubuntu and Yellow Dog are the 2 I have seen recommended for Macs
Just not the latest Ubuntu version,
Yellow Dog 3.01 used to be recommended for beige macs, but it could be fairly long in the tooth now, there is probably a much more modern version

Cheers

Jen
06-07-2006, 07:09 PM
I'll show my idiocy here in regards to linux on the mac, but i though you had to have a MacOS installed to enable you to install linux something to do with the way it boots?From what I have read, it can be either a dual boot setup or installed as the only OS. I am not sure how well the modern distros will run on this hardware, but they will have the fuller support. Fedora is another distro that is produced for powerpc's. Ubuntu/Kubuntu Desktop CD powerpc version is also a LiveCD so that would be a good way of checking it out without having to install an OS.

For Apple Macintosh G3, G4, and G5 computers, including iBooks and PowerBooks:
Kubuntu (http://ftp.citylink.co.nz/ubuntu-releases/kubuntu/6.06/) download site

Ubuntu (http://ftp.citylink.co.nz/ubuntu-releases/6.06/) download site.

B.M.
06-07-2006, 08:46 PM
Well guys and galls, after much hand wringing I decided to spend the price of a handle on three Ububtu disks from Dick Smiths. (Stock no. XC4042 which are on special.) :illogical

Anyway, wouldn’t you know it, I get them home and they won’t work. Upon reading the fine print I discover they’re for G4 & G5 Architectures and this is G3. :groan:

Drat! Back we go to square one! :D

Nermal
14-07-2006, 01:50 PM
See whether you can find a copy of Jaguar (OS X 10.2), which will give you a much more modern experience (and is the latest version you can run on a beige G3). The downside to this is that beige G3s can be picky when it comes to booting the OS X installer, and you sometimes need to kickstart from OS 9, which would put you back to square one :(

maccrazy
14-07-2006, 05:25 PM
I presume you mean you have this PowerMac G3 (http://apple-history.com/?page=gallery&model=g3&performa=off&sort=date&order=ASC). If so, it won't meet the requirements (http://www.apple.com/macosx/upgrade/requirements.html) for Mac OS X (without using a 3rd party installer to get around Apple's checks for built-in Firewire etc) but it is possible to install up to Mac OS X 10.2 (I'm basing this statement on the fact that I got Mac OS X 10.2 running on a Wallstreet PowerBook (233MHz) which is from a similar era and of similar specifications). If it was a Blue and White model I would suggest giving it a go, but the original G3 towers are such old machines you are probably wasting your time.

If you really want to get it going, then buy a copy of Mac OS 9 (or see if your friend still has the disks) and reformat the whole system before installing it. You need to boot Mac OS off the CD when you install. Alternatively, if you want to see what Mac OS X would be like running on the system and you have a Mac using friend, then get them to make a Mac OS X boot disk up for you. This will act in a similar way to booting off the Mac OS 9 installer disk but obviously you can't install Mac OS X off it.

Don't expect wonders though as it is a very old system. Mac OS 9 is from the Windows 95/98 era and if you do manage to get Mac OS X running it will be very slow. :)

Safari
14-07-2006, 07:03 PM
OS 9 is not quite as old as W95/98
OS 9 was still being upgraded in 2001 as the official release of OS X did not appear until 2001

maccrazy
15-07-2006, 12:38 AM
Yes, you're right, December 2001 was the last update, but the Mac OS 8 - 9.1 styled system originated in 1997 which is between 95 and 98 (at least in terms of dates). :)

stu161204
15-07-2006, 01:21 AM
I remember Mac OS 8, as I use to use Macs back in primary school in 1995 was there a Mac OS 7?

Safari
15-07-2006, 08:45 AM
I remember Mac OS 8, as I use to use Macs back in primary school in 1995 was there a Mac OS 7?

Yep - There were many versions of OS 7 there was also OS 5 and 6 before that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_history
Mac OS 8 was released on July 26, 1997. Initially planned as Mac OS 7.7, it was renumbered "8" to exploit a legal loophole to accomplish Jobs' goal of terminating third-party manufacturers' licenses to System 7 and shutting down the Macintosh clone market.
Apple sold 1.2 million copies of Mac OS 8 in its first two weeks of availability and 3 million within six months.

techiekid
15-07-2006, 12:02 PM
nothickmanuals.info/doku.php/minivmac now thats nifty

try mac system 1 :D

stu161204
16-07-2006, 01:21 AM
Yep - There were many versions of OS 7 there was also OS 5 and 6 before that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mac_OS_history

Yes, it was Mac OS 7 I used in primary school :D :)

Nermal
20-07-2006, 01:52 PM
was there a Mac OS 7?

There was, although it didn't get the "Mac OS" name until 7.5.1 (or it might've been 7.5.2). Previous versions were just known as "system software" (eg. "System 7"). Apple adopted the Mac OS name when they licensed out the OS, although it only appeared on the startup screen, not in the About This Computer box. If I recall correctly, the disks still called it "System 7.5.1" and it wasn't sold as Mac OS until 7.6.


Initially planned as Mac OS 7.7, it was renumbered "8" to exploit a legal loophole to accomplish Jobs' goal of terminating third-party manufacturers' licenses to System 7 and shutting down the Macintosh clone market.

I'm pretty sure that my retail copy of 8.1 is supported on clones. I don't have the manual on hand, but I'm pretty sure that it at least implied compatibility with clones. I'm pretty sure 9 required an Apple system though.

B.M.
25-08-2006, 01:44 PM
I hate to bring this thread back to the top again guys but a mate just turned up with a CD labelled:

"eMac Mac OS X Install Disk 1".

A couple of questions:
Being Disk 1 does this mean there is more? I doesn’t say 1 of 20 or whatever. :confused:

Given that XP fits on one disk I wonder?

Anyway, I stuck it in the CD and the ROM spun up but nothing. So I turned it off and rebooted with the CD ROM still in, hoping it might do something, but alas nothing.

Anyone any comments before it goes back in the corner until an Apple wiz turns up. :D

gibler
25-08-2006, 03:05 PM
I hate to bring this thread back to the top again guys but a mate just turned up with a CD labelled:

"eMac Mac OS X Install Disk 1".

A couple of questions:
Being Disk 1 does this mean there is more? I doesn’t say 1 of 20 or whatever. :confused:

Given that XP fits on one disk I wonder?

Anyway, I stuck it in the CD and the ROM spun up but nothing. So I turned it off and rebooted with the CD ROM still in, hoping it might do something, but alas nothing.

Anyone any comments before it goes back in the corner until an Apple wiz turns up. :D

What version of OS X? DVD or CD? I think there is usually about 3 if I remember correctly for 10.3 at least.

OS X is quite a big install as there are quite a few extra applications you get and it has a ton of printer drivers and language options (if you don't select these when you install it might not ask for the last disc).

You hold the C key down when booting to boot off a CD with a mac (and keep holding it until you hear the CD being actively read) :lol:
Or holding the option key down will show you all the options you have to boot off..

Note: that the eMac disc will probably only work on an eMac and possibly only the model eMac it accompanies.

B.M.
25-08-2006, 04:37 PM
Noooop no luck.

Holding down "C" or "OPT" does nothing. :annoyed:

Looks like it's back in the corner awaiting a 9.1 disk. :annoyed: :lol:

gibler
25-08-2006, 06:03 PM
Heh, is this still the beige G3 dektop we are talking about ?.... a.k.a. doorstop ;)

B.M.
25-08-2006, 10:15 PM
Ahhhhhhh, I just knew it would come in useful for something! :D