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Matt
24-06-2006, 05:04 PM
I went into a PC store a couple of days ago to buy a new PC. I found a brochure for a PC that looked something like I wanted, and gave it to one of the sales reps. I told her I wanted to use it for gaming and so I would need a video card & sound card upgrade (and a TV tuner). She went around the store and found a video card and sound card and TV tuner, and I took the system home, paying $1852+GST.

When I went to install the upgrade cards, I found some problems:
1) the video card was DVI but the monitor was analog
2) the motherboard only has 2 PCI slots and 1 PCi-E and they are very close together.
3) After a few hours the CPU fan starts making some bearing noise.

In fact there is only about 6mm between the video card (a GeForce 7600) heatsink, and the sound card. I have been advised that this can lead to long-term damage to both cards, even though they appear to be functioning correctly at the moment. Also, the retail store's technician said that there was actually no problem with having cards in such proximity.

The CPU fan worked properly when the store's technician was there, and he suggested that it was the fan changing speed (which is rubbish, I know what a bad fan sounds like). However this is a minor problem...

To upgrade to a DVI monitor is an extra $215+GST, meaning I would have paid $2067+GST, and still be left with a PC with the long-term problem of the two cards close together.

While I was in the store about to do this monitor upgrade, I noticed they had another option called "Gamer PC". It comes with the upgraded sound and video already, and the monitor has a TV tuner built in. It was $2300+GST but it also was a better video card, and a faster CPU and bigger harddrive. Also, the motherboard had the video card slot way separate from the PCI slots.

Perfect, I thought, I'll return the old PC and get this 'Gamer' one and solve all my problems.

Unfortunately, the store manager would not allow this. He said that the PC is not malfunctioning so they will not allow a return. He also offered some other lame excuses (he can't re-sell it as it is not brand new; and the Windows XP has been registered on the internet already).

However I think the sales rep should have:
1) not sold me a system with mis-matched monitor, and the card-spacing problem (does that count as a malfunction?)
2) noticed that I wanted a gaming system and pointed out the 'Gamer PC' package in the first place.

I'm planning to write to the store manager and see if I can change his mind, but he seemed fairly intransigent when I spoke to him, so I am not holding out much hope.

What should I do ??

Greg
24-06-2006, 05:30 PM
Sounds like a bit of a bummer. I'm guessing you got it from some retail chain :horrified

Writing would definitly be the right thing to do - keep[ a copy - see if you can ask him to resolve the issue ammicably, and considering you're not asking for a refund and are actually spending more than intended, he really should be more reasonble.

If you don't get satisfaction, I suppose you'd have a slim chance of invoking the Fair Trading Act, in that the machine isn't ideal for your purposes. You could probably get "expert" opinion from some folks here if it came down to that.

But yeah it's lousy when you've spent that kind of cash for something you're dissatisfied with.

Regarding the proximity of the two cards to each other, I doubt that'd be much of a problem, as long as the case is adequately ventilated.

pctek
24-06-2006, 06:02 PM
I went into a PC store a couple of days ago to buy a new PC. I found a brochure for a PC that looked something like I wanted, and gave it to one of the sales reps. I told her I wanted to use it for gaming and so I would need a video card & sound card upgrade (and a TV tuner). She went around the store and found a video card and sound card and TV tuner, and I took the system home, paying $1852+GST.

When I went to install the upgrade cards, I found some problems:
1) the video card was DVI but the monitor was analog
2) the motherboard only has 2 PCI slots and 1 PCi-E and they are very close together.
3) After a few hours the CPU fan starts making some bearing noise.

What should I do ??
Better research first next time.
You can get DVI to VGA adapters. In fact most cards come with them. Ask the shop for one.
Get him to change the fan on the CPU.
The slots are probably not too close so it won't matter. Are the cards touching? No? Don't worry about it then.

Matt
24-06-2006, 06:07 PM
Better research first next time.
You can get DVI to VGA adapters. In fact most cards come with them. Ask the shop for one.


I have one of them . But the monitor is still analog. DVI outputs have digital lines and analog lines; the DVI-VGA adapter just uses the analog lines). It's stupid having a video card that can output nice crisp digital, but not having a monitor that can display it clearly.

Jen
24-06-2006, 06:14 PM
I have one of them . But the monitor is still analog. DVI outputs have digital lines and analog lines; the DVI-VGA adapter just uses the analog lines). It's stupid having a video card that can output nice crisp digital, but not having a monitor that can display it clearly.It is common for the lower end LCDs to have only VGA, and if you really wanted digital you should of specifically asked for it at the time.

As already stated, apart from the fan noise you really don't have a valid complaint about the system not fit for its intended purpose. Did you give them a budget indication at the time?

somebody
24-06-2006, 06:15 PM
I went into a PC store a couple of days ago to buy a new PC. I found a brochure for a PC that looked something like I wanted, and gave it to one of the sales reps. I told her I wanted to use it for gaming and so I would need a video card & sound card upgrade (and a TV tuner). She went around the store and found a video card and sound card and TV tuner, and I took the system home, paying $1852+GST.

When I went to install the upgrade cards, I found some problems:
1) the video card was DVI but the monitor was analog
2) the motherboard only has 2 PCI slots and 1 PCi-E and they are very close together.
3) After a few hours the CPU fan starts making some bearing noise.

In fact there is only about 6mm between the video card (a GeForce 7600) heatsink, and the sound card. I have been advised that this can lead to long-term damage to both cards, even though they appear to be functioning correctly at the moment. Also, the retail store's technician said that there was actually no problem with having cards in such proximity.

The CPU fan worked properly when the store's technician was there, and he suggested that it was the fan changing speed (which is rubbish, I know what a bad fan sounds like). However this is a minor problem...

To upgrade to a DVI monitor is an extra $215+GST, meaning I would have paid $2067+GST, and still be left with a PC with the long-term problem of the two cards close together.

While I was in the store about to do this monitor upgrade, I noticed they had another option called "Gamer PC". It comes with the upgraded sound and video already, and the monitor has a TV tuner built in. It was $2300+GST but it also was a better video card, and a faster CPU and bigger harddrive. Also, the motherboard had the video card slot way separate from the PCI slots.

Perfect, I thought, I'll return the old PC and get this 'Gamer' one and solve all my problems.

Unfortunately, the store manager would not allow this. He said that the PC is not malfunctioning so they will not allow a return. He also offered some other lame excuses (he can't re-sell it as it is not brand new; and the Windows XP has been registered on the internet already).

However I think the sales rep should have:
1) not sold me a system with mis-matched monitor, and the card-spacing problem (does that count as a malfunction?)
2) noticed that I wanted a gaming system and pointed out the 'Gamer PC' package in the first place.

I'm planning to write to the store manager and see if I can change his mind, but he seemed fairly intransigent when I spoke to him, so I am not holding out much hope.

What should I do ??

Unfortunately for you, the store has every right to refuse to refund, based on the reasons which they gave you - ie. Windows being activated etc.

There is also nothing illegal about not pointing you to the "Gamer system" which costs more, because technically with the upgrades you got you would fall into that category anyway.

I don't quite understand your comment about using Analog lines only - if your monitor is analog only, you're not going to get any better than what you're getting. If they sold you a video card with an analog VGA output as well, you'd still get the same quality. The problem is the monitor, which you knew you were getting anyway.

In regards to the CPU fan, I would pursue them on this issue if it crops up again. It's should be covered under warranty, and you're well within your rights to ask for it to be reparied/replaced (provided of course, you have better luck when you take it into them with the noise).

chiefnz
24-06-2006, 06:21 PM
Yes, a sorry state of affairs, I have no extra advice to offer.

However I would like to know what the name of the store is so that I may avoid their premises as far as possible.

cheers

chiefnz

Shortcircuit
24-06-2006, 06:40 PM
The cards being close together are not a problem.

I am very suprised that they sold you a box with a decent DVI video card/TV tuner and only an analog display when you told them you wanted it for gaming... digital makes a difference to gamers.

You might be out of luck getting them to take the whole system back, but ANY retailer worth their name should be bending over backwards when a customer spends a few grand on something and isn't happy with it.

Doesn't matter a bit that they activated Windows over the net already, I'm sure it wouldn't have been the first time that a retailer has taken a system back already activated.

My advice is- don't give in. Point out to them that you are not happy politely, especially with the display being non-digital as you made it clear you wanted the system for gaming. If you're willing to pay extra- make it clear to them that you are willing to pay 'a bit extra' for a digital display, but that you would be really grateful if you could 'upgrade' to the more expensive gamer system they have there (sometimes you've just got to pay extra to get the right thing!)

Try not to give up on it- I am continually amazed at computer retailers attitudes about helping their customers, if you're polite and persistent you might get somewhere.

Cicero
24-06-2006, 06:51 PM
And without question,you should get a name of a reputable supplier before anything.
Endless supply of mediocre ones about and it seems you have managed to find one,but I hope it all ends up well for you.

Feelers
24-06-2006, 08:44 PM
I would just say that it is not capable of running the game you wanted it to - pick some ridiculously high end game and say it can't run it smoothly, or doesnt play at all.


Its not your problem that windows had been paid for - its not like they will loose money - its just that they dont want to have to apply for the refund. In situations like this where they are being unreasonable, the lowest common denominator is unfortunately a good way to get things done. They should be trying to keep your business by making you happy.

I know of people who had such situations - and a malfunction in the unit was "found", and thus a return was given. Its all a bit mafia like - and you might not want to go down that path, just putting it out there. :badpc:

rob_on_guitar
24-06-2006, 09:16 PM
Always get a second opinion. I dont know jack about anything, a second opinion is great, especially when there people like on this site willing to give decent advice for free (except the ones with the purty mouth :yuck: lol).



I spose in hindsight everything is 20/20.

JJJJJ
24-06-2006, 09:47 PM
In my opinion you rushed into an unsatisfactory purchase and your problems are realy your own fault.
I say this because I did the same thing a couple of years ago.

My solution. Sold the computer on Trade Me for about half of what I paid for it, And then bought what I realy wanted.

You live and learn

KiwiMR2
25-06-2006, 12:54 AM
I told her I wanted to use it for gaming

They didn't ask you what games you were wanting to play etc.?


When I went to install the upgrade cards, I found some problems:

That's really a mistake on there part.....you shouldn't have to put up with that unless they specifically told you that in order to use it you would need to upgrade your monitor.......the pc package INCLUDED a vga monitor I assume?


Unfortunately, the store manager would not allow this. He said that the PC is not malfunctioning so they will not allow a return. He also offered some other lame excuses (he can't re-sell it as it is not brand new; and the Windows XP has been registered on the internet already).

Rubbish.......you specifically told them what PURPOSE you were buying the pc for (gaming) and at the end of the day after you were sold a pc package (upgrades included) in it's current state it isn't fit for the purpose of which you brought it, can you see where Im leading...........under the consumers guarantees act the goods must be fit for any particular purpose;

When you have told a supplier what you want the goods to be able to do, the trader should provide you with goods that do what you want.

eg, you ask the trader to supply you with a heater that will heat a large room. The trader must supply you with a heater that is powerful enough to do this.

Fitness for particular purpose is different from fit for normal purpose which is covered under the guarantee of acceptable quality.

It is an additional purpose to the main purpose people use the goods for. The normal purpose of the heater is to heat a room, the particular purpose you need the heater for is to heat a large room.

Claims that suppliers make about what goods can do may also be covered by this. This means that, if the supplier tells you a watch will be suitable for diving, but on the first dive you find it is not waterproof, you will have a claim against the supplier.

To tie that in with your situation it's like they have then upgraded your gas bottle as you asked for it to heat a LARGE room but you find once home in order to make it work you need to buy a different connector.

Your right....they should have reccomended the gamer package if that is what you told them you wanted the pc for.

At the end of the day if you really want to push this they don't have a leg to stand on. Write them a letter outlining why your not satisfied that the goods that you were sold are fit for the purpose that you wanted it for, that your disapointed that the sales person had not reccomended you what would seem a more appropriate package (the gamers one they sale) expecially as you had outlined your purpose for the pc.

Don't beat around the bush, tell them under the CGA the haven't supplied a product fit for the purpose you asked. You can say rather than demanding a full refund you would be more than happy to pay the difference & purchase they gamers package & that if there not interested in fulfilling there obligations under the CGA then you will proceed with further action via the disputes tribunal. Tell them you would like to here from them within say 3 days to be fair & it would probably be better if you send it to head office rather than the store....head office will more than likley make the manager sort it out asap.

Good luck :)

Cheers
KiwiMR2

somebody
25-06-2006, 09:59 AM
There's a difference between "being suitable" and being "the best" for a specific job. The system which Matt has bought is "suitable" for gaming - no question about it there. It plays games, the graphics card works, with the enclosed adaptor - using an analog monitor. However, it is not "the best", as it is not utilising XYZ features of the graphics card etc. Just because they had another PC in the corner labeled "Gamer PC" doesn't make this one (with upgrades) any lesser. They've sold you a PC suitable for gaming - is it the most powerful gaming rig in their store? No. But it is still a gaming PC.

I agree with JJJJJ here in saying that you probably rushed into this purchase. What you need to do is to approach this situation calmly and politely, rather than going in quoting the CGA demanding that they help you. As Shortcircuit suggested, you would probably have more success doing it that way than going in with an I want I want I want mentality.

KiwiMR2
25-06-2006, 10:14 AM
IMO they failed to offer him the correct product.....especially when he specified he wanted a gaming machine and they had a "gamin" package, if this does move to the next level (disputes tribunal) then the retailer won't have a leg to stand on. I highly doubt they would even let it go that far, as soon as it's mentioned it's often not worth the effort for the retailer.

They fact that he has explained the problem and reccomended what sounds to me like a fair solution in which both parties come out ok I belive there it's a pretty clear case.

If I go into a car yard and say I want a 4wd vehicle to do some offroading would you expect the dealer to offer a 4wd truck or a 4wd car.....say a pajero or a subaru legacy....Im sure the legacy would be ok for some offroading but would certianly be in for a hard time & probably require some repairs pretty quick. If I had just asked for a 4wd vehicle it would be my problem but the fact I asked for a 4wd vehicle to do some offroading should be a specific enough request that they would reccomend/offer the pajero.

At the end of the day it all depends on if you can be bothered writing a letter, dealing with the whole situation :)

Cheers
KiwiMR2

pctek
25-06-2006, 10:22 AM
IMO they failed to offer him the correct product.....especially when he specified he wanted a gaming machine

No they didn't. I offer 3 "gaming" systems. All are capable of gaming. But they vary considerably in price and components. If someone just picked one and then complained later I would be unimpressed too.
I would expect any gamer to have specific requests or at the very least a lot of questions first about the various components, and I would be very surprised to find a gamer just take the system as is, without asking for at least one or two changes to suit them.

They sold him a Gaming PC, just because he now decides its not good enough is tough luck.
He should have been specific. The monitor issue is lame - did he ask for digital? No, and it works fine. So what if its analogue? Doesn't affect its ability to play games at all.
The only thing I think is valid is the suspect CPU fan.

somebody
25-06-2006, 10:55 AM
IMO they failed to offer him the correct product.....especially when he specified he wanted a gaming machine and they had a "gamin" package, if this does move to the next level (disputes tribunal) then the retailer won't have a leg to stand on. I highly doubt they would even let it go that far, as soon as it's mentioned it's often not worth the effort for the retailer.


He's the one who doesn't have a leg to stand on. The retailer offered him a machine with upgrades, suitable for gaming. The fact that it didn't have "Gaming package" stamped on it is irrelevant. He agreed that it was fine, but later decided that he wanted a digital monitor instead of analog, which the store didn't sell him. At the end of the day, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a company selling a product which does what it's supposed to do. I could go and sell my 4 year old PC as a "Gaming PC", but would that make it any more suitable than the PC Matt bought? Absolutely not - simply giving it the title "gaming package" doesn't make it more suitable than anything else. At the end of the day, while the package he got is lower-speced than the "Gaming package" sitting in the corner, it doesn't mean that what he got was "unfit" for the intended purpose, as defined under the CGA.

However, as mentioned several times, the CPU fan is definetely worth pursuing, as it is a faulty product.

dolby digital
25-06-2006, 11:29 AM
This is a great example of the differring opinions when a product purchase is made and the customer is unhappy (for whatever reason). If he was unsure of where he stands he would be even more confused now. It also can be difficult to explain in 200 words the exact transaction but I reckon that the shop should at least try and convert an unhappy customer to a happy one. You have the right to at least try to become a happy customer. It costs more to get new customers than get repeat business from existing ones. Mind you, PC purchasers are not that loyal being price driven.

Of course as there is no money in hardware, the shop would prefer he go away and only come back to make more purchases. In the real world of pc's, this just doesn't happen. As to the "rushing in" business, maybe he should have got the shop to sign a contract that it meets his requirements (or vice versa) :waughh:

This is one reason I try and buy other goods at LV Martin & Sons in Wellington. They have a "peace of mind" guarantee. If you are not happy you can take it back within 14 days. Ok, you might pay a wee bit more for the privilege but some things only show up after you have set it up at home.

Actually I am a really fussy about my monitors. A pc retailer was selling a Mag 19" CRT. I asked them if they had a demo monitor which they didn't. They said that they had sold heaps and not one had come back. Didn't anyone ask to see the product in use before they purchased it.

KiwiMR2
25-06-2006, 11:36 AM
At the end of the day it is going to be a matter of opinion, I know if it was our store we would do the exchange....in saying that though we have an exchange & returns policy.

We can only make an educated guess as to his rights based on the info he has provided (im still un-sure if the pc package came with a VGA only monitor??). He said, she said stuff.

Despite weather we like it or not Im still quite confident if it was put in front of the disputes tribunal he would win & the retailer would have to either refund him or make the exchange, if there a resonably big chain then they will not let it get that far.

Cheers
KiwiMR2

Cicero
25-06-2006, 11:41 AM
Attention all,Matt has left the stage.

FoxyMX
25-06-2006, 12:23 PM
Attention all,Matt has left the stage.
As they tend to do if they don't get the replies they wish to see.

rob_on_guitar
25-06-2006, 05:03 PM
I'd be kind of interested in the end result if any.

I too wouldnt think there would be a prob besides the fan. Just hard luck.

dolby digital
25-06-2006, 08:36 PM
Attention all,Matt has left the stage.
He might be "discussing" the situation with the PC Retailer as we speak (email)

Myth
25-06-2006, 09:18 PM
I'm in agreeance with those who say he rushed in and didn't research.
When I bought my first computer, I asked techs all round the place re:what I should look for, specs etc. Pity I didn't ask them what was a reputable brand of PC (I ended up with a PC Company computer that caused quite a few issues later).

IMHO he was given a gaming PC (even if it wasn't labeled as such) as he was given upgrades to the video card, and sound. So he got what he thought was a good deal, till he went in for something else and saw something better.

The noisy fan issue may help get a return, but doubtful (they will probably just replace it and give hom the same comp back.

Also Im lost, you said something about their tech looking at it, and you also said you installed the cards. If YOU opened the case, you broke the warranty so therefore a refund is completely out of the question. (Though the shop may feel sorry for you, but highly doubtful).

Sweep
25-06-2006, 10:00 PM
The noisy fan issue may help get a return, but doubtful (they will probably just replace it and give hom the same comp back.

Also Im lost, you said something about their tech looking at it, and you also said you installed the cards. If YOU opened the case, you broke the warranty so therefore a refund is completely out of the question. (Though the shop may feel sorry for you, but highly doubtful).

Probably should get a replacement fan but I am even doubtful about that. CPU fans do speed up and slow down depending on the heat and load. I can't hear that fan from my place. :-)

A gaming computer you buy today will possibly not handle the game that comes out tomorrow either. I might add that the computer you buy today will not handle many games from some time ago. I tried installing Commander Keen on my older rig a while ago and it knew nothing about USB joysticks.

Opening a case does not automatically void the warranty either for that matter. Some retailers will insist that it does but in my opinion that is not valid.

KiwiMR2
26-06-2006, 12:16 AM
Opening a case does not automatically void the warranty either for that matter. Some retailers will insist that it does but in my opinion that is not valid.

Agreed......Hp, Compaq, Apple, and NEC/Packard Bell don't have a problem with the case being opened however IF what your claiming for has been caused by something you have done inside then they will decline the repair under warranty.


IMHO he was given a gaming PC (even if it wasn't labeled as such) as he was given upgrades to the video card, and sound. So he got what he thought was a good deal, till he went in for something else and saw something better.

So why bother to label the other package as a "gamers" package?? It's a bit like going to by a sports car and they sell you a Holden Barina but upgrade the exhaust, wheels, and air filter.....it still isn't a sports car. There are different pc's for different purposes.....If someone wants to by a business pc I could sell them an everyday model and add on a 3 year extended warranty but I'd be better of selling them a "business" machine with a manufacture 3 year onsite warranty as it's better suited for "business" use.

untill we know exactly what he asked for & the full conversation it could go either way. IMO though if it has gone as mentioned in brief initially it's pretty Irresponsible of them to not make more of an effort to establish the customers needs & direct him to a more suited machine....it's just asking for issue's.

Cheers
KiwiMR2

pctek
26-06-2006, 10:52 AM
So why bother to label the other package as a "gamers" package?? It's a bit like going to by a sports car and they sell you a Holden Barina but upgrade the exhaust, wheels, and air filter.....it still isn't a sports car.

If someone wants to by a business pc I could sell them an everyday model and add on a 3 year extended warranty but I'd be better of selling them a "business" machine with a manufacture 3 year onsite warranty as it's better suited for "business" use.

Ok, heres a point. Top Gear showed the Corvette last night. Its a sports car. However as they said, don't buy it, its crap.
Same with PCs, gaming PCs can vary hugely. Its must play games. How well and for how long is another thing entirely and usually dictated by the customners budget.


As for 3 year extended warranty vs manuatcatyurers 3 year warranty. Explain to me how you can offer a PC, business or not with anything less. You use rubbish components that have a 1 year warranty? Because all Intel and AMD Cpus for a start are 3 years. Decent hard drives are 5 years. And son on.
Annoys the hell out of me when chainstores say that, its just a big rip off.

KiwiMR2
26-06-2006, 11:21 AM
As for 3 year extended warranty vs manuatcatyurers 3 year warranty. Explain to me how you can offer a PC, business or not with anything less. You use rubbish components that have a 1 year warranty? Because all Intel and AMD Cpus for a start are 3 years. Decent hard drives are 5 years. And son on.
Annoys the hell out of me when chainstores say that, its just a big rip off.

Dunno...ask Hp, Compaq, Nec, Sony, Toshiba etc. etc. Retail stores wouldn't survive if they offered at no additional charge warranties over & above what they buy along with the machine.

Cheers
KiwiMR2