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Robin S_
06-06-2006, 02:43 PM
FYI.

From time to time on PressF1 I see requests for help from people who are having difficulty in setting up a home p2p network, particularly using a crossover cable connection. It is not easy to find info on this topic on the net because the great bulk of the related stuff there is appropriate to p2p networking using the net to download music, videos etc. I have found an excellent page here -
http://www.duxcw.com/digest/Howto/network/net2pc/intro.htm
and a less detailed one here -
razertech.com/edge/hardware/crossover/crossover.htm

In view of the amounts of data people wish to transfer these days when swapping cptrs, and that data transfer is so much faster using a crossover cable connection (15 - 20 min/GB as opposed to 1hr for USB and 2 - 5hr for a parallel cable), perhaps this would be a worthwhile topic for a PressF1 FAQ by someone with appropriate experience.

Morgenmuffel
06-06-2006, 03:07 PM
Thats a good idea

I wonder if it is time for someone to go over the FAQs that are on here and update and add to them where necessary

reading through some of the names on the old FAQs makes me wonder whatever happened to those people

Erayd
06-06-2006, 03:21 PM
I think a general TCP/IP networking FAQ would be a good idea too. Incorrect understanding of this protocol causes so much grief and it's usually relatively simple to fix. I would be happy to contribute to this.

One of your links is out of date - NetBEUI really shouldn't be used anymore, particularly as it's not installed by default in any version of Windows since 98SE (I think - it's possible that ME may also have had this).

tweak'e
06-06-2006, 03:41 PM
we did have a networking FAQ, not sure where its disappeared to. mind you there is heaps of sites on it eg http://www.practicallynetworked.com/ and http://www.windowsnetworking.com/

Erayd
06-06-2006, 05:16 PM
Still, even if we do have one it might be an idea to upgrade it - NAT/LAN setups are a lot more common than they used to be, and DHCP is now a bigger issue too.

[edit: If we have one, where is it? I was unable to find it on the FAQ page.]
[edit 2: The IRC FAQ needs updating too.]

tweak'e
06-06-2006, 05:31 PM
http://pressf1.pcworld.co.nz/showthread.php?t=49958

the old FAQ.

MTLance
06-06-2006, 05:36 PM
I got no problem setting home network except configuration mode which is complicated (you need to know Microsoft language)

Erayd
06-06-2006, 06:11 PM
I have an idea (http://pressf1.co.nz/showthread.php?p=460208).

FoxyMX
06-06-2006, 06:50 PM
http://pressf1.pcworld.co.nz/showthread.php?t=49958

the old FAQ.
Not sure why that FAQ missed the boat but it should be with the others. There are other FAQs that are floating around that should also be in the FAQ section.

Robin S_
06-06-2006, 10:17 PM
Thanks for the extra links and hints etc folks. A wiki or an updated FAQ which appears on the list - I wouldn't mind which. I'm sure it would be popular.

Robin S_
07-06-2006, 12:41 AM
Bletch - if NetBEUI is out of date what are the recommended protocols for the following connections -
Win9x(?/ME) - Win9x(?/ME)
WinXP - Win9x(?/ME)
WinXP(?/2000) - WinXP(?/2000)?

This would be helpful info for inclusion in an FAQ/Wiki.

Erayd
07-06-2006, 01:02 AM
TCP/IP will work for all of the above, and is the best one for the job - especially as it makes upgrading the network later a lot simpler.

For Win9x <--> Win9x if NetBEUI is installed by default (which it usually is, although I'm not sure about ME) it can be used as-is, but it makes life hell (for novice users) when upgrading, or adding other components to a network (e.g. a broadband router). It's better to install TCP/IP at the outset.

TCP/IP is also a routable protocol, and NetBEUI is not - it relies on broadcast traffic. Because of this, NetBEUI doesn't scale well and cannot take full advantage of a switch (as opposed to a hub). Therefore TCP/IP will perform comparitively faster when there are several PCs on the network.

tweak'e
07-06-2006, 12:36 PM
the idea behind netbeui is thats its easy to configure and its not tcp/ip. unfortunatly it is a bit slow. i use ipx/px which is an old protocol but windows has it by default, its good for small networks and requires minimal setup.

the whole idea of useing netbeui or ipx/spx (or anything other than tcp/ip) is to use a different method for your internet than for your local network. it makes it a bit harder to route your shared files over the net. useing tcp/ip for your local network file shareing makes it easier to gain access to your files from the net exspecially when useing 9x/me

Erayd
07-06-2006, 12:43 PM
Yes, but then what happens when you want to add a broadband router later? Or upgrade to a Win2k/XP machine? 2k/XP don't have NetBEUI or IPX/SPX installed by default (i.e. you need to add it), and I have yet to see a BB router capable of working with a NetBEUI LAN.

I guess NetBEUI is pretty easy to configure, but it's fairly limited in what it can do. You're basically limited to file & printer sharing. Even most network games these days require TCP/IP to function correctly (although a lot of the older ones did use IPX/SPX).

Robin S_
07-06-2006, 12:56 PM
Thanks for the top-up, guys. I hope this all goes into the FAQ/Wiki.

BTW. How does one get into the "missing" FAQs? Is it a case of having to know the addresses or is there some other way? I had checked the list, and done a search on the FAQs for "home network", before I started this thread.

tweak'e
07-06-2006, 01:08 PM
Yes, but then what happens when you want to add a broadband router later? Or upgrade to a Win2k/XP machine? 2k/XP don't have NetBEUI or IPX/SPX installed by default (i.e. you need to add it), and I have yet to see a BB router capable of working with a NetBEUI LAN.

I guess NetBEUI is pretty easy to configure, but it's fairly limited in what it can do. You're basically limited to file & printer sharing. Even most network games these days require TCP/IP to function correctly (although a lot of the older ones did use IPX/SPX).

i think you missed the point here. you run BOTH tcp/ip and ipx/spx (or netbeui). with XP ipx is ADVAILABLE by default, netbeui isn't. with netbeui you have to extract it off the disk which is a pain. adding protocals is just plain easy and normall.

netbeui or ipx/spx of course is limited to windows file shareing only......thats the point, you set it so its the only protocol windows fileshareing uses which means its very hard for it to go over the net. also it means no firewall gets in its way.

BB routers........no idea. i prefer to use seperate switches anyway (you don't loose the network when the BB router plays up). edit: i just had a quick look. some BB routers have built in switches, others don't they just have 4 ports for shareing the net. still 4-5 port switches are cheap and i wouldn't trust the adsl modem with lan traffic anyway.

Erayd
07-06-2006, 01:11 PM
The reason you couldn't find it is that it looks like an old FAQ thread that was never properly added to the FAQ section - perhaps it was missed when the forum was upgraded to vBulletin.

Another thing that should be amended in that FAQ: avoid using the 192.168.0.0/24 subnet. Some network devices confuse it with 192.168.0.0/16, which then causes routing to not work correctly. 192.168.1.0/24 is a better choice, and is also the one that most home network devices use by default (except D-Link DSL-302G etc).

Erayd
07-06-2006, 01:30 PM
tweak'e: Gotcha, that makes a bit more sense, I was missing the point you were trying to make.

Where's the difference between 'not using TCP/IP for LAN traffic' and 'using NAT'? If incoming connections are blocked anyway, how can shares be compromised from the internet side? The PCs on the LAN would be in a private subnet anyway (usually a class C), and therefore not visible unless the modem/router itself is compromised.

Is IPX/SPX a broadcast protocol like NetBEUI, or can it send traffic directly?

tweak'e
07-06-2006, 01:42 PM
therefore not visible unless the modem/router itself is compromised.
exactly. we have seen hacked routers before today and a lot of people leave them on default passwords. even if they are useing internal modems windows networking has been known to be hacked (exspecially with unpatched systems) so its adavailable to the net. by not useing tcp/ip fpr the shareing even if the router is hacked the lan traffic won't go over it, UNLESS they do ipx over tcp.

the catch with netbeui is it dosn't like many pc's on the network. ipx is old (pre internet ?) and handles medium sized networks but dosn't like very large corporate networks (i can't remeber why). for home networks its any easy way to add sicurity and get around hassles with firewalls.


Is IPX/SPX a broadcast protocol like NetBEUI, or can it send traffic directly? not to sure what u mean. i'm no networking god.

Erayd
07-06-2006, 01:47 PM
...and a lot of people leave them on default passwords.Very true. This should also be included in the FAQ.

Erayd
07-06-2006, 01:54 PM
Not to sure what you mean. I'm no networking god.I meant can it take advantage of a switch (rather than a hub). With TCP/IP the traffic is sent directly to the target host, as defined by its ip address. With NetBEUI (I think) the traffic is all broadcast for every PC, and each one will sift through the mess to find which packets are intended for it. This is why it won't scale well. If using a hub, this isn't really a problem - the hub can't do anything else, no matter what protocol you use. A switch is capable of sending traffic only to the host it is intended for, which is why a non-broadcast protocol is a better choice. While SMB does rely on broadcast traffic (even with TCP/IP), this is only for locating hosts & workgroups. Everything else can be directly targeted.

tweak'e
07-06-2006, 02:04 PM
yeah i think it routes by MAC addy, it dosn't flood the network like netbeui does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPX/SPX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPX

Erayd
07-06-2006, 02:10 PM
I had found the first link, but the second one clarifies all - cheers for that. It sounds like an excellent protocol, and hopefully a bit quicker than TCP/IP too. Now I just gotta see if my firewall (http://m0n0.ch/wall) can route it, and hope that the Wifi works with it. Sounds good!

tweak'e
07-06-2006, 02:38 PM
ooooo.....freeBSD, very geekish :)

one of the problem i had with linux is i couldn't find anywhere on how to network with ipx/spx, which is kinda werid concidering linux's background and commerical type useage.

edit: depending on your hardware setup your firewall may not be a problem. exspecially if the firewall is plugged into a switch. ie the firewall only handles net traffic not lan traffic.

Erayd
07-06-2006, 03:27 PM
Depending on your hardware setup your firewall may not be a problem. exspecially if the firewall is plugged into a switch. ie the firewall only handles net traffic not lan traffic.Unfortunately that's not the case. The setup is as follows:

m0n0wall WAN port >> Nokia M1122 >> internet
m0n0wall DMZ port >> Web & E-Mail Server (CentOS 4.3)
m0n0wall LAN port >> LAN (2x 8 port switches)
D-Link DI-524UP LAN port >> LAN (one of the switches)
D-Link DI-524UP WAN port >> nothing
Main Server (also CentOS 4.3) >> LAN (one of the switches)
All desktop PCs are on wired ethernet (LAN), laptops are wireless (also LAN subnet).
About half the PCs run Linux

As you can see, it's not exactly a typical home network setup - hence the routing issues. As you said Linux can't use IPX/SPX though, it makes using that protocol a bit useless in my situation, as I need all the computers to be able to communicate.

[edit: The DMZ & LAN are in different subnets, but still need (very) limited communication.]

tweak'e
07-06-2006, 06:23 PM
i didn't say linux CAN'T use ipx, afaik the kernal does support it, i just can't find how to access it. i'm sure linux was in use with ipx before tcp became the norm. linx gods, help please ! !