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SurferJoe46
25-01-2006, 12:07 PM
Having been a mechanic 40+ years and having had customers "sing" the sound effects that their cars made, this comes as somewhat of a mixed blessing.

People have tried to explain the sound they think they hear in their systems and this site has some interesting .wav files of actual things that go "bump" in the inner workings of a tower.

Just playing them for yourself will make your hair stand up..especially if you are some sorta tech-geek-type. I cried all through the slow spindle speed .wav. :lol:

Maybe those types (above) should save a file of these sounds so they can be played to get a better diagnostic of the noise complaints that come here every once in a while.

...from the good guys at Hitachi Forums: http://www.hitachigst.com/hddt/knowtree.nsf/cffe836ed7c12018862565b000530c74/4b1a62a50f405d0d86256756006e340c?OpenDocument

pctek
25-01-2006, 12:32 PM
ANY noises from the HDD are a bad sign. Except the super quiet little hum Seagates make. Which is so quiet the CPU fan will drown it out anyway to most peoples ears.

Doesn't surprise me that Hitachi has a list.

kingdragonfly
25-01-2006, 01:28 PM
Actually I think Samsung makes the quietest drives.

My Western Digital drives me nuts with the db level, but I like completely silent PC's.

My PC's water cooled, and I did find a water cooled hard drive enclosure, but shipping it from Germany was outrageous.

http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/assets/s2dmain.html?http://www.webshop-innovatek.de/00000094271139704/000000942713b3501/50142494350d40616/530975968d0c54b01.html
(In German)

Agent_24
25-01-2006, 10:13 PM
ANY noises from the HDD are a bad sign. Except the super quiet little hum Seagates make. Which is so quiet the CPU fan will drown it out anyway to most peoples ears.

Doesn't surprise me that Hitachi has a list.

What about the clicking sound that's heard when the harddrive is actually doing something with data....?? surely that is not bad

All my maxtors do it and I find it useful since the HDD light doesn't work for my sata drive, also have a couple of old seagate medalist harddrives that make a horrible racket, especially just after spin-up :D

pctek
26-01-2006, 06:33 AM
Clicking? They shouldn't do clicking. Maxtors are rattly sounding sort of when loading. I should amend my previous comment - MODERN Seagates are quiet.

Used to be the IBMs with the glass platters but they don't exist anymore.

Agent_24
26-01-2006, 11:28 AM
You you're right, it does sound more rattly than clicky.

Glass platters???? :waughh: wouldn't the natural migration of glass over time (accelerated by the centrifugal force) cause the outer edges to become thicker and cause head scraping etc?? heat wouldn't help either...

SurferJoe46
26-01-2006, 01:07 PM
Got a BUMP here for a new site with guess what?....more harddrive sound effects...and they ain't all Hitachi...have fun:

http://odeo.com/channel/60183/view

SurferJoe46
26-01-2006, 01:15 PM
You you're right, it does sound more rattly than clicky.

Glass platters???? :waughh: wouldn't the natural migration of glass over time (accelerated by the centrifugal force) cause the outer edges to become thicker and cause head scraping etc?? heat wouldn't help either...

About Glass platters:


This article appears in the Winter issue of ExtremeTech Magazine, which went on the newstands in January.

When people think of personal computers, they almost always think of the CPU, or memory, or even graphics chips. They often forget that inside a PC is a purely mechanical device that spins at up to 15,000 revolutions per minute. In a more standard desktop hard drive, which spins at a tamer 7,200 RPM, a point close to the outer track is moving at roughly 48 miles per hour. In a typical working day, that means the outer edge of your hard drive has traveled 384 miles.

But that's not the most amazing part. Each hard drive consists of one or more platters, called the substrate, typically made from very thin glass. We're not talking window glass here, but a precisely formulated glass or glass composite, which is highly polished and coated with a thin layer of magnetic material. The drive can record data on both sides of a platter by orienting magnetic domains within the material. One direction represents a digital 1, the other a 0. In modern high-capacity drives, Magnetic domain orientation is often vertical (pointing up or down).

kingdragonfly
26-01-2006, 02:00 PM
Though I don't think it's available here in New Zealand yet, I can't wait to check out the new SATA WD Raptor drive WITH A CLEAR TOP! (actually a clear lens)

mark c
26-01-2006, 03:01 PM
HDs make a lot of noise during (windows) maintenance.

Chuga chuga brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr click click click.

First time I ran the maintenance of some friends' comp for them they thought it was wrecking itself, or more to point - that I had caused it to wreck itself, so I had.........well you know what I mean.

HDs in my experience make noises during reading and writing as well. Maybe it's because I've only dealt with comps that are at least five years old. :D

Graham L
26-01-2006, 03:15 PM
The tiny disks which IBM make, with 1GB in a Compact Flash package use a glass platter. It was the only way they could get a platter stiff enough, still having room for heads on both sides.

As for the "natural migration of glass over time" ... over what time scale? People still use glass in telescopes. The lenses and mirrors must retain their shape to much tighter tolerances than needed in a hard disk.

Many will still use aluminium alloy platters ... they know how to make them. Any change in technology is expensive.

FoxyMX
26-01-2006, 03:39 PM
It amazed me the first time I got my hands on the hard drive of a laptop, it was so tiny compared to a desktop hard drive. Rather cute really. :p

Graham L
26-01-2006, 04:06 PM
I think there are some drives with a case less than an inch wide, whereas your laptop drive is 2.5". I've got some 14" disks. They hold 2.5 MB. :D

Billy T
26-01-2006, 04:19 PM
You you're right, it does sound more rattly than clicky.

Glass platters???? :waughh: wouldn't the natural migration of glass over time (accelerated by the centrifugal force) cause the outer edges to become thicker and cause head scraping etc?? heat wouldn't help either...

I'm not 100% sure, but I really don't think glass is able to "migrate". IIRC, that idea was derived many years ago from the checking of very old window glass, where the bottom of the pane was invariably thicker than the top. However, early glassmaking was not all that sophisticated and glass was spun out to produce sheets, the centre point making the "bullseye" panes you see in ye quainte olde english shoppe windows. The outer parts were cut into squares and for ease of installation the thickest part was placed at the bottom.

If migration was an issue, you should be able to measure a thickness variation between the top and bottom of any very old mirror. We have a large 100+ year-old mirror here and there is no evidence of visual distortion, top or bottom.

Of course I could be wrong, but Google should confirm or deny if anybody is that interested.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

Graham L
26-01-2006, 04:31 PM
The bullseye glass was an early method. The size was very limited. I doubt very much if they made any more than about 4' in diameter. So the square pieces were very small. That's why very old windows use lots of panes.

I saw the 3' diameter glass lampshades for the Christchurch Town Hall being blown and that was quite a performance. They cheated a bit by using a compressed air hose to finish the blowing.

Most larger panes were made by blowing a cylinder. The ends were cut off (you have to have "ends" to be able to blow) then the cylinder was slit along its length and opened out into a (roughly) flat sheet.

Glass windows were expensive.

SurferJoe46
27-01-2006, 05:04 AM
I remember from my physical science classes in high school here in the US that glass is "plastic"...... (# Capable of deformation at constant stress once the yield point is exceeded. The ability of a material to undergo permanent deformation without returning to its original shape or failing.
www.minesafe.org/training_education/terms.html) and as such, flows from the date of formation untill it is either destroyed or recycled.

The fact that this happens is evident in the glass windows of very old homes here in Jamestown and the old original settlements like the Dutch colonies in New York..etc.

The glass over time has flowed to the effects of gravity and grown thicker at the bottom, thinner at the top. After the modulus has been exceeded, the glass keeps this new position rather well, as there is no true memory to it's original form from that time on.

This does not consider the "eye" glasses that were so stylish in homes of grandeur and social status as these were basically part of a glass montage, as in pieces of glass bounded by a leaden form that held them in decorative and various positions, because, yes, glass was very expensive to produce in large forms.

Much of the cost was attributed to the transport and shipping of the product, as much was lost that way due to rough portage and clumsy stevedores.

The grand mansions of the old South and in Charleston especially, had artisans very nearby, and after import from England and Germany was discontinued because of local talent, the cost of glass dropped considerably. This allowed the more common houses to also have some beautiful glasswares and even stained glass became very prominent.

Modern glass production has pretty well eliminated the flow problem with the inclusion of various additives to glassmaking, but the fact that glass is still "plastic" and that it by nature still flows, causes all sorts of compensations to engineering of the mounting and maintenance of things like telescope lenses and critical laboratory fresnels* to be very tightly designed and carried out.


* The lens invented by Augustin Fresnel in 1821 which consists of concentric ridges radiating outward from the central lens (bullseye), with prisms positioned at the top and bottom of the ridges to refract the light from the light source placed behind the central lens. A term normally used only when referring to traditional cut glass style lenses, although the Fresnel principle is also found in more modern glass or plastic lenses.

Billy T
27-01-2006, 08:24 AM
I'm not sure that I agree with you there SJ.

Here (http://tafkac.org/science/glass.flow/glass_flow_the_thread.html) is a forum discussion with a variety of views, that deals with the "plastic" issue in a fairly credible fashion.

It would take a formal peer-reviewed scientific research paper with repeatable experimental results to convince me that gravity can affect the thickness of the bottom of a pane of glass.

Bear in mind that the compression stress at the bottom of a large sheet of plate glass is many times the force of gravity on a small window pane, and you'd expect to see some measurable distortion in a shorter time period if glass was truly plastic and flow-deformable.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

The_End_Of_Reality
28-01-2006, 08:24 AM
How ironic is this, after reading this thread and listening to those sounds, my HDD starts making those noises :groan: and not able to read half the data and taking 15 mins to load windows :eek:

What can cause this?

What should I do, it is still in warrenty?

SurferJoe46
28-01-2006, 09:35 AM
I'm not sure that I agree with you there SJ.

Here (http://tafkac.org/science/glass.flow/glass_flow_the_thread.html) is a forum discussion with a variety of views, that deals with the "plastic" issue in a fairly credible fashion.

It would take a formal peer-reviewed scientific research paper with repeatable experimental results to convince me that gravity can affect the thickness of the bottom of a pane of glass.

Bear in mind that the compression stress at the bottom of a large sheet of plate glass is many times the force of gravity on a small window pane, and you'd expect to see some measurable distortion in a shorter time period if glass was truly plastic and flow-deformable.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)



Just a thought to toss in here Speed....do you honestly think the distorted glass that we see in the Victorian era homes was made that way?

Please remember that there are times when this distortion is wanted, as in obscurred glass in bathrooms and private dressing areas of the home, but I sincerly doubt that deformed glass was what was originally wanted or manufactured.

I had the extreme pleasure to tour the Jamestown Virginia Exposition, in of course, Jamestown Virginia about the year...let me think..uh...how about 1956? Anyway, I asked this very question at the glass-blower's display, and that was the first time I ever heard of glass being "plastic". It has since become a general factoid that indeed glass does flow for the life of it's existance.

I promise to research this situation and get a post up about it pretty quick..OK?

SurferJoe46
28-01-2006, 09:52 AM
Well...that was quick..but I found the reason for the anecdotal reference to glass flowing here from "Antique windowpanes and the flow of supercooled liquids", by Robert C. Plumb, (Worcester Polytech. Inst., Worcester, MA, 01609, USA), J. Chem. Educ. (1989), 66 (12), 994-6:ibid


There have been many claims (especially by tour guides) that such glass is deformed because the glass has flowed slowly over the centuries. This has become a persistent myth, but close inspection shows that characteristic signs of flow, such as flowing around, and out of the frame, are not present. The deformations are more consistent with imperfections of the methods used to make panes of glass at the time. In some cases gaps appear between glass panes and their frames, but this is due to deformations in the lead framework rather than the glass. Other examples of rippling in windows of old homes can be accounted for because the glass was imperfectly flattened by rolling before the float glass process came into use.

It is difficult to verify with absolute certainty that no examples of glass flow exist, because there are almost always no records of the original state. In rare cases stained glass windows are found to contain lead which would lower the viscosity and make them heavier. Could these examples deform under their own weight? Only careful study and analysis can answer this question. Robert Brill of the Corning glass museum has been studying antique glass for over 30 years. He has examined many examples of glass from old buildings, measuring their material properties and chemical composition. He has taken a special interest in the glass flow myth and has always looked for evidence for and against. In his opinion, the notion that glass in Mediaeval stained glass windows has flowed over the centuries is untrue and, he says, examples of sagging and ripples in old windows are also most likely physical characteristics resulting from the manufacturing process. Other experts who have made similar studies agree. Theoretical analysis based on measured glass viscosities shows that glass should not deform significantly even over many centuries, and a clear link is found between types of deformation in the glass and the way it was produced.

Conclusion

There is no clear answer to the question "Is glass solid or liquid?". In terms of molecular dynamics and thermodynamics it is possible to justify various different views that it is a highly viscous liquid, an amorphous solid, or simply that glass is another state of matter which is neither liquid nor solid. The difference is semantic. In terms of its material properties we can do little better. There is no clear definition of the distinction between solids and highly viscous liquids. All such phases or states of matter are idealisations of real material properties. Nevertheless, from a more common sense point of view, glass should be considered a solid since it is rigid according to every day experience. The use of the term "supercooled liquid" to describe glass still persists, but is considered by many to be an unfortunate misnomer that should be avoided. In any case, claims that glass panes in old windows have deformed due to glass flow have never been substantiated. Examples of Roman glassware and calculations based on measurements of glass visco-properties indicate that these claims cannot be true. The observed features are more easily explained as a result of the imperfect methods used to make glass window panes before the float glass process was invented.


.....so, it looks like there is still some amount of dispute over this phenenoma and there is still room for dedicated studies......but back to the original thought: NO, the glass platters in your HDD will not deform over time because unlike window glass, they are different in compound and manufacture.

I did enjoy this little journey and the research it created... a good hijacking, wot?

Misty
30-01-2006, 04:57 PM
[QUOTE=SurferJoe46]

People have tried to explain the sound they think they hear in their systems and this site has some interesting .wav files of actual things that go "bump" in the inner workings of a tower.
Maybe those types (above) should save a file of these sounds so they can be played to get a better diagnostic of the noise complaints that come here every once in a while.

Hi SurferJoe
Just to get back on topic - probably about two years ago PC World had on their free disc a set of what the different sounds you might hear if your hard drive had problems. I will try to identify which issue for you !
cheers
Misty :)