PDA

View Full Version : WFTWE #132....Eleutheromania....A little something for Ahmed Zaoui...



Billy T
10-12-2004, 07:02 PM
Eleutheromania

A strong desire for freedom


Without commenting on the rights or wrongs of his case, Ahmed was obviously well supported by an enthusiastic cast of eleutheromaniacs

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :)


WFTWE started life as an occasional "Word For The Day"
during the beta testing of the current Forum software,
and this will probably be the last WFTWE in that format.
The new functionality sounds like a dream come true,
but I hope the new format does not lose the simplicity
and clarity of the present presentation.

ninja
10-12-2004, 07:54 PM
He should've been evicted from the country as soon as he broke laws by destroying his documents. But as usual our pandering bunch of PC hippies had to keep him here.

Ridiculous.

Maybe you should petition Bruce for your own WFTWE sub forum.... actually maybe I should petition Bruce for your own WFTWE sub forum.

metla
10-12-2004, 08:05 PM
damn right,he should have been put on the next plane out of the country with a good solid boot to the backside,

rodb
10-12-2004, 09:23 PM
He had a perfectly suitable home with his family in a Muslim country before coming illegally to N.Z.
Send him back to the family he deserted.

Benji
10-12-2004, 09:24 PM
Yes. What a bunch of mugs we Kiwis are.
Here's a known terrorist who blatantly destroyed his travel documents and after spending a few months at our expense wallowing in self-pity is now virtually free to do what he likes. And he's already talking about bringing his multitude of kids over here. They'll all be on welfare no doubt.

I wonder if one of these bleeding hearts who pushed for his release will give the jerk a job? Or would it be too risky for them?

And where does this leave genuine refugees who patiently wait for the system to process them?

E|im
10-12-2004, 09:33 PM
> Maybe you should petition Bruce for your own WFTWE sub forum.... actually maybe I should petition Bruce for your own WFTWE sub forum.

Seconded! :^O ha ha ha

And Metla you post-padder, 5000 posts :O

metla
10-12-2004, 09:40 PM
well.....unlike some i don't change my user name with the weather....

theotherone
10-12-2004, 10:07 PM
Interesting opinions here!!!!!!!!!!!! Ever thought that the courts might be right and the SIS wrong?

ninja
10-12-2004, 10:19 PM
> Interesting opinions here!!!!!!!!!!!! Ever thought
> that the courts might be right and the SIS wrong?

Whether he's a terrorist or not isn't really the issue. I don't even think the SIS are certain he's a terrorist. As for what it's worth, he could've flown the plane that hit the twin towers, or he could be Gandhi's sandal wearing next door nieghbour with all the karma in the world.

The argument is more fundamental, he came to this country on false documents, carrying other false documents. He destroyed them on arrival. He broke the law. Terrorist or not he should've been turned round and kicked the hell out right then and there - he should never have left the airport.

Instead literally millions of dollars, not to mention countless hours of media drivel and Paul Holmes (may his career rest in pieces - except that priceless karaoke CD) specials have been devoted to a non-existent cause.

Meanwhile organisations, medical facilities and other areas of our country are screaming out for funding whilst one scroat gets trawled through the system.

Don't even get me started on that wife-beating ass bandit on dialysis in Auckland. I guess we'll wait till every judge in the country has said "Oh it's your last chance, seriously, I mean it this time"

Billy T
10-12-2004, 10:28 PM
> Maybe you should petition Bruce for your own WFTWE
> sub forum.... actually maybe I should petition Bruce
> for your own WFTWE sub forum.

You sing a strange yet familiar song ninja.

Who were you in your previous incarnation ?:|

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :D

noone
10-12-2004, 10:29 PM
to bad we are going to be losing all our post counts

metla
10-12-2004, 10:35 PM
I will be quite happy to lose mine,if they didn't exsist i would be quite happy.

At another forum i posted at they would punish people by lowering their post count......Lmao,never did see the sence in it

Jen C
10-12-2004, 10:37 PM
Can we have one WFTWE that doesn't go sour from personal comments ... please. Christmas is near, it is the time of goodwill and cheer!

noone
10-12-2004, 10:41 PM
a post count although some may disagree is like the wisdom that particular user has , as with age comes wisdom so does with posts - IMO

metla
10-12-2004, 10:43 PM
i would hate to think how many of mine have come from bad jokes and arguments......

Winston001
10-12-2004, 10:45 PM
Ninja makes some good points. A little enthusiastically maybe, but nothing wrong with a bit of passion.

I don't put much significance on the destroyed/fake documents. Ahmed Zaoui arrived as a refugee. Can we blame him for using whatever means at his disposal to get to safety?

Of course he may be an active terrorist which puts a more sinister slant on the matter. It seems that no-one, including the SIS, really knows for certain.

But he has jumped the refugee queue. and that is plainly wrong. Apparently Australia has set up a resort for such people on Nuie. Decent chaps the Occers. So off he should go.

Levity aside, the Zaoui case has been a worthy cause celebre for civil libertarians. It is worth asking why anyone should be locked up for two years without trial. Without even being told of the accusations. We abhor this in other countries and should vigorously question such treatment here.

E|im
10-12-2004, 10:47 PM
> well.....unlike some i don't change my user name with the weather....

> At another forum i posted at they would punish people by lowering their post count......Lmao,never did see the sence in it

:^O :^O Actually, I go by the lunar cycles.

Laura
10-12-2004, 10:48 PM
Agreed, Jen, especially if people are determined to argue the Zaoui case - about which there are strong feelings on BOTH sides.

Horses for courses & threads for threads...i

noone
10-12-2004, 10:50 PM
just start another thread then you wont disrupt this one and people can share their views

metla
10-12-2004, 10:52 PM
We have to put something of interest in these threads.....

stu120404
10-12-2004, 10:58 PM
> > well.....unlike some i don't change my user name
> with the weather....
>
> > At another forum i posted at they would punish
> people by lowering their post count......Lmao,never
> did see the sence in it
>
> :^O :^O Actually, I go by the lunar cycles.

lol!

ninja
11-12-2004, 12:36 AM
> But he has jumped the refugee queue. and that is plainly wrong. Apparently > Australia has set up a resort for such people on Nuie. Decent chaps the
> Occers. So off he should go.

I hope not, isn't Niue that little nowhere country that declared itself quasi independent yet we completely support it?

> We have to put something of interest in these
> threads.....

I concur.

personthingy
11-12-2004, 07:06 AM
Eleutheromania

A strong desire for freedom

Cool word Billy T....


Let me assure people... you just don't appreciate your freedom till you lose it!
And nomatter what Ahmed did or didn't do... 2 years is a bloody long time to stuff about remanded @ her majestys pleasure.......

:-)
Chris

Billy T
11-12-2004, 08:34 AM
> We have to put something of interest in these
> threads.....

Actually metla, while I suspect you perhaps intended a slightly different meaning, I do agree with you.

Bear in mind that WFTWE is intended only for light entertainment, and occasionally perhaps as an etymological teaser. I find the meanderings and diversions it takes intriguing and often enlightening though, as different individuals express varied and sometimes totally unrelated views. That is why, whenever I can, I try to make it topical.

I also find it mildy amusing that some take all it so personally or seriously. Nobody has to read it if they don't want to, and I certainly don't read every post on PF1, or comment on every post I read that I disagree with or even object to. Life is too short for such intensity of feeling over something as transient as a forum post.

Re Ahmed Zhaoui, personally I am unconvinced of his bona fides, but I do believe that two years without trial is unacceptable. The SIS should either put up or shut up.

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :|

personthingy
11-12-2004, 08:49 AM
So billy.... are you going to do something equivalent to WFTWE?

Ive enjoyed the phenomena for so long now, it would be a shame to see it stop altogether!

And yeah.. ain't it fun watching people fight over something as trivial as a forum post!

:-)
Chris

Billy T
11-12-2004, 10:01 AM
Never fear Chris :O

WFTWE will continue as normal, I haven't run out of words yet.

I did think about stopping at #100 but was prevailed upon to continue, so the next milestone will be #200. I will consider my options when I get into the 190's.

Besides, I enjoy doing it. ;)

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :D

pulling hair out
11-12-2004, 11:28 AM
>>Let me assure people... you just don't appreciate your freedom till you lose it!
>>And nomatter what Ahmed did or didn't do... 2 years is a bloody long time to stuff
>>about remanded @ her majestys pleasure.......

At least he had 3 meals a day, free medical and dental service, a roof over his head, educational services eg., could get training and qualifications in new fields, a lawyer and the media at his beck and call.

There are NZ'ers who don't have those benefits. Will his avid defenders now devote all that free time to open their eyes to what is going on around them? The physically and mentally disabled do not have the freedom this man has had. They can never be really be free. Noone is really free, they just think they are.

He chose to enter NZ illegally knowing full well what could happen. He is not stupid. He is probably is now getting free accomodation and food from the people looking after him now. His lawyer is now asking NZ'ers to provide him with clothing as well. Forgive me for not feeling an ounce of sorrow for the man.

He was kept in jail because he was a security risk to all NZ'ers.
He did not have a trial because there difficulty in getting information that showed he would not be a risk.
I am pleased that the Government took a responsible attitude, and cannot understand why we are being asked to 'bleed' for this man.

tedheath
11-12-2004, 11:51 AM
He was a terrorist in Algeria end of story. Now we have given refuge to a terrorist simple as that.

TEDHEATH

personthingy
11-12-2004, 12:04 PM
pulling hair out...

While i see your point, i think that 2 years remanded without trial for WHATEVER reason is a very dangerous precedent to set, and therefore needs to be challenged, A year remanded is no longer uncommon under the NZ legal system. People usually plead guilty in hope that it will be over with sooner.

Also, i am assuming that you have never been in such a circumstance yourself. Jail is not how you describe it. One is not free within those walls. Its a matter of dealing with extremes of boredom while on some level, always watching ones own back, after all, the jails have some of the country's worst nutters living in them.

Mt Eden jail is nothing less than a glorified dungeon. No matter what this man is accused of, 2 years remains a very long time to keep someone without trial, particularly when the powers that accuse are refusing, for whatever reasons to substantiate their claims.

As said by others on this thread, it would have been a much simpler solution to simply turn him around at the airport. The fact that it has come as far as it has shows that there is a gross stupidity in our procedures (surprise!!!!)

:|
Chris

ninja
11-12-2004, 01:02 PM
> At least he had 3 meals a day, free medical and
> dental service, a roof over his head, educational
> services eg., could get training and qualifications
> in new fields, a lawyer and the media at his beck and
> call.
>
> There are NZ'ers who don't have those benefits. Will
> his avid defenders now devote all that free time to
> open their eyes to what is going on around them? The
> physically and mentally disabled do not have the
> freedom this man has had. They can never be really be
> free. Noone is really free, they just think they
> are.
>
> He chose to enter NZ illegally knowing full well what
> could happen. He is not stupid. He is probably is now
> getting free accomodation and food from the people
> looking after him now. His lawyer is now asking
> NZ'ers to provide him with clothing as well. Forgive
> me for not feeling an ounce of sorrow for the man.
>
> He was kept in jail because he was a security risk to
> all NZ'ers.
> He did not have a trial because there difficulty in
> getting information that showed he would not be a
> risk.
> I am pleased that the Government took a responsible
> attitude, and cannot understand why we are being
> asked to 'bleed' for this man.

Woah... never thought I'd agree with you on something.

Kudos.

Winston001
11-12-2004, 02:54 PM
With respect, the Zaoui issue is far greater than the man himself. As an individual he has certainly been afforded rights and benefits in New Zealand which do not exist in many countries.

Nevertheless, forget about the man himself. We live in a privileged, open, free society. If we are to retain our social integrity, we must test our processes against the way we treat the week and unfortunate - prisoners, children, elderly, and indeed, animals.

Our judicial system does not lock people up for two years without a charge. But the Prime Minister can. So the process is flawed and needs to be fixed. No-one should be imprisoned for so long without a trial or at least bail.

The importance of Zaoui is that the process has been tested and found wanting. Forget about the man.

Winston001
11-12-2004, 03:12 PM
For those interested, the Refugee Appeal Authority issued a decision last year in favour of Zaoui. This was a carefully considered, lengthy judicial decision and bears reading. Furthermore it was referred to the Belgium and French governments for comment (because it was critical) and they did not provide any counter arguments or further evidence.

http://www.nzrefugeeappeals.govt.nz/

Search for Zaoui - can't seem to link to the actual decision but it is there.

Don't get me wrong - the guy might eat your kids for breakfast. And he's a queue jumper. The Auckland Islands might provide a good spot for Algerian tranquility and introspection.

pulling hair out
11-12-2004, 03:23 PM
>>2 years remanded without trial for WHATEVER reason is a very dangerous precedent to set, and therefore needs to be challenged,

"Whatever" - yes I do agree, however in this instance there was a valid reason for ensuring that NZ's security was not violated.

>>Also, i am assuming that you have never been in such a circumstance yourself. Jail is not how you describe it. One is not free within those walls. Its a matter of dealing with extremes of boredom while on some level, always watching ones own back, after all, the jails have some of the country's worst nutters living in them.

Never had the pleasure fortunately. However extremes of boredom, watching your own back, living in the same area as "nutters" [don't like that word, is also used against the mentally disabled] is experienced outside of the jails as well. People who end up going to jail often find people just like themselves in there as well. Shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Totally agree with the stupidity in our procedures though.

Graham L
11-12-2004, 03:25 PM
Remember that the only proven, terrorist action in NZ causing death was committed by employees of a French "Security" organisation.

The investigation which resulted in the conviction of the terrorists was not carried out by the NZ SIS.

The French security mob is one of those who have been presenting "evidence against Zaoui. They may have some bias against hinm because he is an Algerian. Algeria was a French colony, and the events which led to the French leaving were not very creditable to either the French government, the French colonists, the French army, or the Algerian nationalists.

Zaoui came here as a political refugee. Lack of documents is a common thing in political refugee cases. This is recognised by the UN Convention on Refugees (to which NZ is a signatory).

This case is suspiciously like a case of the SIS saying "Look at us, we're successful and deserve all the money we get. We've caught a terrorist.".

pulling hair out
11-12-2004, 03:27 PM
>>Woah... never thought I'd agree with you on something.

Kudos.

Yes, that could be considered a worrying thought! :^O

tedheath
11-12-2004, 04:35 PM
I have had the misfortune of going to Auckland Islands 4 times.
The only thing to do is night clubbing (seals).
I agree it would be a good place for all refugees to nz to live.
They used a small island off Enderby island called shoe island as a jail.


tedheath