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View Full Version : Xtra's new "FLAT RATE" plans



bk T
26-10-2004, 05:39 PM
Xtra has just introduced its new so-called 'FLAT-RATE" Jetstream plans, however,
"Download and upload speeds may be reduced to a maximum of 64kbs once you reach your monthly high-speed allowance"

Technically (or legally), can they really called it 'flat-rate' if there is such a condition? Reducing to a max of 64kbs is strictly speaking, dial-up speed rather than "BROADBAND".

Is this against the New Zealand law?

Graham L
26-10-2004, 05:44 PM
It's flat rate:you pay the same each month. You have a limit on the amount you can use each month at high speed. After that you can ave all you can eat at 64kbps.:D

What's the problem?:D

It's wasn't all that long ago that a 9600 bps modem was a wonderful piece of high speed technology. Much nicer than 2400. ;-)

godfather
26-10-2004, 05:45 PM
Flat Rate refers to the $ cost per month, irrespective of the amount of data or time connected.
Its $ per month, no data charge or time connected charge.

Its nothing to do with the speed. Thats covered in the plan description

Sorry, I do not follow your reasoning therefore.

Big John
26-10-2004, 05:46 PM
Of course it is a flat rate because you are only paying a set amount. That is what they are talking about. There is no mention of the speed being set at a flat rate and they cleary mention that your speed will reduce.

So you can either accept the terms or don't purchase them. Then you have to find another place to get your fix from and you will most likely find the same thing.

How can this be against the law?

bk T
26-10-2004, 06:14 PM
> Of course it is a flat rate because you are only
> paying a set amount. That is what they are talking
> about. There is no mention of the speed being set at
> a flat rate and they cleary mention that your speed
> will reduce.

I'm not disputing the $ here. My understanding of the term 'flat-rate' is 'eat as much as you can' at a fixed sum of $, speed may vary, but not from one category (broadband speed) to another (dial-up speed).

Do you consider 64kbps as 'broadband' Internet connection? I'm asking this question is because we are 'buying' their 'broadband' service.

Generally, when we talk about 'broadband' Internet, we mean 'high-speed' Internet connection. Probably other countries (even other so-called "3rd world" countries) will laugh at us if we were to tell them that our 'broadband' Internet is 64kbps!

Prescott
26-10-2004, 06:25 PM
if you are a dairy farmer you can get broadband through XTRA and fonterra much cheaper than the people that arent dairy farmers
/butt in

Murray P
26-10-2004, 06:43 PM
"Flatrate" It's a bit of marketing speak for which they cover their butt's in the detail. It'll catch a few all the same.

Is it entirely ethical? not in my opinion,
will it get them in to trouble? probably not,
should it? wellll! no not really, it would be nice to think that someone with power and authority would have a quiet word in their ear but, buyer beware, read up before you sign up.

Cheers Murray P

phylip
26-10-2004, 07:51 PM
don't know what everyone is complaining about
its simple if you don't want the service no one is forcing you to buy it
i my self am looking forward to the 17th when i go up to the new plan

it wasn't to many hears ago when i was using a 286 and plugging my phone headset into a modem cradle that was going at the outstanding speed of 300 baud and dreaming about saving up 300 dollars to upgrade to a 9600 baud modem
and using it to surf the bbs boards in invercargill where you had an hour online each day
so today i don't think you have anything to complain about

Big John
26-10-2004, 08:24 PM
> I'm not disputing the $ here. My understanding of the
> term 'flat-rate' is 'eat as much as you can' at a
> fixed sum of $, speed may vary, but not from one
> category (broadband speed) to another (dial-up
> speed).

Speed always vary and not just because of connection speed. You going to complain about that as well?

> Do you consider 64kbps as 'broadband' Internet
> connection? I'm asking this question is because we
> are 'buying' their 'broadband' service.

If it was stuck at 64k then no but it is not. It is 2Gb up to 10GB

> Generally, when we talk about 'broadband' Internet,
> we mean 'high-speed' Internet connection. Probably
> other countries (even other so-called "3rd world"
> countries) will laugh at us if we were to tell them
> that our 'broadband' Internet is 64kbps!

Well if you want true broad band then splash out and pay the extra costs for it and you will get the full speed JetStream and it will never be cut back. And dont say other countries are cheaper because we are here and not in other countries. If you want their prices then you will have to go and live their.

bk T
26-10-2004, 10:07 PM
> > I'm not disputing the $ here. My understanding of
> the
> > term 'flat-rate' is 'eat as much as you can' at a
> > fixed sum of $, speed may vary, but not from one
> > category (broadband speed) to another (dial-up
> > speed).
>
> Speed always vary and not just because of connection
> speed. You going to complain about that as well?

As mentioned above, I'm referring to 'broadband speed' and 'dial-up speed'. They belong to two different categories of Internet services.
>
> > Do you consider 64kbps as 'broadband' Internet
> > connection? I'm asking this question is because we
> > are 'buying' their 'broadband' service.
>
> If it was stuck at 64k then no but it is not. It is
> 2Gb up to 10GB

What about the 'flat-rate' Jetstream Go plan of 1 G and Jetstream Explorer plan of 3 G ? You will be 'stuck' at 64k after exceeding the 1G and 3 G limit. It's pretty easy to reach that 'goal' especially the 'GO' plan.

It's very misleading to use the term 'FLAT-RATE' for the above 2 plans. Don't you think so? It's not too bad for the 10 G plan, however.

nomad
26-10-2004, 10:40 PM
Maybe its just that pple expect flat rate to be a capped price, which it is but the quality level of the service/product should be maintained, which its not.

I guess, pple have been brought up on the understanding if we went to a buffet restaurant, we pay a fixed capped price, but we can eat as much as we want the quality does not change. But in this case internet has reduced significantly. Pple would capped is the same thing as dialup internet .. that with most most ISPs, u pay a fixed price, u get a 56k connection and it will be this maintained.

It is my opinion, companies assume pple will think they are fixed rate in price and quality. And they take advantage of that ruthlessly. To be honest that was my opinion. I just got their cardboard flyer in the mail just an hour ago from my mailbox (just watched Pearl Harbour on TV :) ). Yeah .. that was my assumption, I thought it WAS caped in price and the connection remained at 128 or 256k depending what product i bought ..

godfather
26-10-2004, 10:51 PM
bk T, please note that:

Flat Rate describes the price, not the speed.
This point has been made ad nauseum above.
The rate is flat, unchanging due to data or time.

Its been described like that since the days of dial-up, before ADSL even came along.

Flate Rate is not the description of speed. Never has been. Ever

I have had a Flate Rate account since it was first available on dial-up, where no speed was guaranteed (on my fast 14.4 modem).

It's not a misleading description, but you seem to apply the name to the speed and not to the price plan.

Again.
Flat Rate describes the price, not the speed.

From the meaning in Wikipedia:

"A flat rate (sometimes "linear rate") refers to a pricing structure that charges a single fixed fee for a service, regardless of usage.

For Internet service providers, flat rate is access to the Internet all hour and days of the year (linear rate) and for all the customers of the telco operator (universal) at a fixed and cheap tariff.

Flat rate is common in all the broadband access to the Internet. "

Happy now?

barmypom
26-10-2004, 10:59 PM
The bottom line is that broadband in NZ is either crap, non-existent, or ridiculously expensive. Whats the use in having a fast speed if you can only use it for a few hours a month?
Suggestions such as "go and live somewhere else then" aren't particularly helpful. If no-one ever complained, there would never be a push or incentive for these muppets called Telecom (and the government) to give us some decent broadband.
The best thing to do if you're really not happy with it is to not buy it and live without it, or seek an alternative (other than Telecom). Only if everyone did this would Telecom take notice and change their plans to suit.
And if you can't live without it and there is no alternative, then the only resort is to grumble like everyone else...which is basically the position most of us are in!

Murray P
26-10-2004, 11:14 PM
> Flat Rate describes the price, not the speed.
> This point has been made ad nauseum above.
> The rate is flat, unchanging due to data or time.

Yes, flat price but not flat value like the old dialup which is where people have got confused. Flat rate dialup was all you could eat (chewing slowly) for the same price which = consistent value. Limiting the connection does not give the equivalent value, obviously, so, anyone migrating from a flat rate dialup may be forgiven for thinking that the "broadband" plan is the same. Until they read the blurb again then get in to the fine print to reinforce it.

I believe it is a subtle bending of the "known" dialup value that will inevitably catch people out. A good proportion of people will not look that closely or understand, they'll want to believe they are getting a better deal than they are whether the plan is a reasonable one or not from the start is almost irrelevant.

Cheers Murray P

bk T
26-10-2004, 11:21 PM
Thanks, gf for all the explanations about the term 'FLAT-RATE'.

You are probably right in defining it - it's the 'price' and not the 'speed'. But, assuming you are buying a product or service called 'broadband' at a fixed sum $, after bringing the product/service home, opened it and to your disappointment, you found that you are only getting half of the expected product/service called 'broadband' and the other half is known as 'dial-up'!

Can you be happy? Remember, you paid for the product/service called 'broadband' and not 'dial-up'. Of course, if you consider 64k as broadband, then our discussion ends here.

Cheers and be happy.

JamesStewart
27-10-2004, 12:48 AM
What I can't understand is why xtra has made upload speeds so crap. 196 isn't exactly great is it. And what ever happened to the free national traffic?? It only cost like ... what .. 0.00001c per mb of data for national. I would be happy with 2mbit/196kb and free national, that is a true deal but ... I still feel like I'm being cheated.

barmypom
27-10-2004, 07:17 AM
Thing to do is NOT to buy it.
If no-one bought it then perhaps they would offer something better.
Seems to be alot of ppl out there who actually think it's a good deal.

Budda
27-10-2004, 08:37 AM
i think they way they are advertising it is a bit wrong and is probably catching a few unawares people and annoying others. Not much you can do about it unfortunately but im am not happy about the whoosh plans which advertise unlimited (but we do have a limit we are just not telling about it). That to me is false advertising and im suprised not more have been done about it. Also good to see in there new ads they encourage people to download music lol.

Big John
27-10-2004, 09:17 AM
Its all very simple. If you dont like the terms then simply don't buy it. No one is forcing you too.

You can go to someone else and use them or wait heres an idea.

Why dont you start your own "BROADBAND" with mega high speeds and all you can eat for harldy any cost that is available to anyone in New Zealand. I bet you would get a lot of customers.

JamesStewart
27-10-2004, 09:38 AM
Whats with the smart ass posts here, you guys are getting inoying.

bk T
27-10-2004, 09:40 AM
In Xtramsn website, their advertisement says:

"New Ultra fast Xtra Broadband plans"

"No excess usage charges
with the New Xtra Broadband Flat Rate plans"

Is 64k Ultra fast Broadband? Personally, I think 64k is definitely not to be considered as 'Broadband Speed" ;

therefore, the above 2 advertisement statements are MISLEADING.

How many New Zealanders have fallen (or going to fall) into this trap?

JamesStewart
27-10-2004, 09:42 AM
But on the other hand it is broadband as some one said earlier because its "Broadband for 10gb's a month and then not" ... somthing along those lines, it make sence in my head :P

SKT174
27-10-2004, 09:44 AM
> Its all very simple. If you dont like the terms then
> simply don't buy it. No one is forcing you too.

That's so true. That's why I'm not with Xtra. :p

>
> You can go to someone else and use them or wait heres
> an idea.
>
> Why dont you start your own "BROADBAND" with mega
> high speeds and all you can eat for harldy any cost
> that is available to anyone in New Zealand. I bet you
> would get a lot of customers.

There's one available already. It's Wired Country. :D

POTUS
27-10-2004, 09:47 AM
I looked up :flat rate" on dictionary.com and found only one listing:

"A price per unit which remains constant regardless of the total number of units purchased. "

So I guess that, strictly talking, it's not flat rate. However their marketing blurb qualifies the statmet by pointing out that the speed will be restricted at a certain point. Once again, if you don't like it, vote with your wallet and go elsewhere. I use Orcon for this very reason.

There seems to be a lot of whining about businesses having it all their own way on PF1 at the moment. Telecom, Microsoft, Whoosh. All these companies exist solely for the purpose of making a profit, their only responsibility is to their investors. Like it or not, it's how business works. If theyre in a monopoly the're not really interested in trying to please all the people all the time. Don't like it? Tell them or take your patronage elsewhere. But, for Goodness sake, stop whining about it!

metla
27-10-2004, 09:54 AM
>>Don't like it? Tell them or take your patronage elsewhere. But, for Goodness sake, stop whining about it!

When did you get voted in as mayor?

How about you just ignore threads that don't interest you,rather then trying to tell people what opinions they can express?

Murray P
27-10-2004, 10:31 AM
> There seems to be a lot of whining about businesses having it all their own
> way on PF1 at the moment. Telecom, Microsoft, Whoosh. All these
> companies exist solely for the purpose of making a profit, their only
> responsibility is to their investors. Like it or not, it's how business works.'

<Rant Warning>

I'm sorry but that's absolute twaddle. You are saying, and I've heard this nonsense touted before, that a business does not have to abide by any other rule or law, ethical, moral or otherwise. That is, other than to answer to it's shareholders?

I'm afraid to inform you that that is only one aspect of a companies responsibilities in both law, ethically and as a participant in a wider societal framework. To narrow an argument down to one very narrow point disingenuous, specious and probably even further from the truth (ask a small shareholder for their views).

To take this view to its logical conclusion is to say, that you may not like it but a company is acting within it's mandate to lie, cheat, steal and kill in the name of the shareholder. Oh! you don't really believe that, well maybe! It's a fine line isn't it which is best not gone down.

Cheers Murray P

POTUS
27-10-2004, 10:36 AM
> How about you just ignore threads that don't interest you,rather then trying to tell people what opinions they can express?

I would never tell anyone what opinions they can express. However I am entitled to object to the way they express them. It's the incessant whining that annoys me. How do you suggest I ignore those particular posts without reading them?

But I stand by my statememnt "Don't like it? Tell them or take your patronage elsewhere." All you will achieve by whining about it semi-public manner is to feel a bit better by getting it off your chest and maybe finding other like-minded people with whom you can sulk.

If you really want to change something research it, get all the facts and take them to a public forum. Get popular public opinion on your side and then, just maybe, you have a chance of changing something. But make sure that you really have all the fact because it'll trip you up otherwise.

metla
27-10-2004, 10:42 AM
Tell me why should i do what you tell me to do?

lmao,

The Mayor.

I tell ya what,i'll continue to call it as i see it.

Good for you?.....no?.......it matters not.

POTUS
27-10-2004, 10:44 AM
> You are saying, and I've heard this nonsense touted before, that a business does not have to abide by any other rule or law, ethical, moral or otherwise. That is, other than to answer to it's shareholders?

No, I didn't say that at all. I simply said that their responsibilty is to their shareholders first and foremost. they don't exist to provide a service for the sake of providing that service. To believe otherwise is naive. Of course business has to stay within the boundries of the law. They also have to consider public opinion if they want the largest share of the pie that they can get. But they don't have to be morally ethical because, in todays society, moral ethics are not constant.

POTUS
27-10-2004, 10:49 AM
> Tell me why should i do what you tell me to do?

You don't. I'm not telling anyone what to do. I'm just calling it as I see it - voicing an opinion.

You seem to be getting a bit excitable. You may enjoy life a bit more if you chill out a bit.

metla
27-10-2004, 10:51 AM
LMFAO.

Righty-o slick.

JJJJJ
27-10-2004, 11:26 AM
One reason Broadband is so expensive in NZ is that people are flocking to buy it. If no one would buy it the price would tumble rapidly.
And I agree that "flate rate should mean same product, one price. I know if you will read far enough Telecom will explain it's definition of flat rate. But I, like most people only read the headlines.
S0 There!
Jack

Ashley Matthews
27-10-2004, 11:38 AM
> What I can't understand is why xtra has made upload
> speeds so crap. 196 isn't exactly great is it. And
> what ever happened to the free national traffic?? It
> only cost like ... what .. 0.00001c per mb of data
> for national. I would be happy with 2mbit/196kb and
> free national, that is a true deal but ... I still
> feel like I'm being cheated.


It's to stop people running their own VoIP circuts.

nomad
27-10-2004, 11:44 AM
I guess its legal but its arguable in the courts be it a private case or one by the commerce commission or the like ... Just like airlines advertising .. oh, by the way you still have to pay airport tax and by the way these prices are only available at that time when the planes half full. Oh., and we also have a booking fee and we also have a petrol surcharge. Credit card we have no discounted rate but with cash we do give a small discount. So if I paid via cash and then considered c/c there is a fee? Oh.
The real world is fascinating...

Similar thing to cellphone I guess. If prepay all rate is 70c a min or so .. A business contract of 60mins is $40. You see sir, it is a business plan so its for people for makes more calls during the day. Ahh.. isn't that the same price as prepay? Oh yes indeed, but if u use more than the 60, you get a discounted rate. :^O

Azsen
27-10-2004, 11:47 AM
Potus (http://www.cartoonstock.com/lowres/iba0043l.jpg).

nomad
27-10-2004, 11:49 AM
Just out of interest, I was just thinking about other industries how they use shady tactics. Do Telecom or other ISPs when advertising use those tiny footnotes on the TV screen or on the newspaper telling them the definition of broadband or note terms and conditions and see ther website for for info?? If they have them .. hey its legal but is it readeable from the prospective client.

Murray P
27-10-2004, 01:23 PM
> > You are saying, and I've heard this nonsense touted
>> before, that a business does not have to abide by any
>> other rule or law, ethical, moral or otherwise. That
>> is, other than to answer to it's shareholders?
>
> No, I didn't say that at all. I simply said that
> their responsibilty is to their shareholders first
> and foremost. they don't exist to provide a service
> for the sake of providing that service. To believe
> otherwise is naive. Of course business has to stay
> within the boundries of the law. They also have to
> consider public opinion if they want the largest
> share of the pie that they can get. But they don't
> have to be morally ethical because, in todays
> society, moral ethics are not constant.

>>> All these companies exist solely for the purpose of making a profit,
>>> their only responsibility is to their investors

Umm! so you didn't write that blue highlighted bit?? I think you've changed from a definitive statement to a broad statement to protect your position then imply naivety on the part of those that disagree or correct. Wow, the logic is underwhelming me.

Your statements do not bare out the real world unless your solely talking about large, possibly multinational entities, that either have a near or total monopoly, ie, the ones that cop the most flack from the naive and simple minded for some strange reason. The rest (businesses) have to listen to a varying degree to their customers, both existing and the potential ones.

A basic business tenant is: You ignore your existing customers at your peril, never take them for granted, ie, one in the hand is better than two in the bush, and consolidate before you grow. Question, what comes first: idea/product to sell, to customers/clients, shareholders? The answer can be found in good literature on business basics and principles, and in marketing literature for that matter.

The moral ethics "not constant" argument is a bit spurious to say the least. It's about as constant as the law, one follows the other, they are intertwined.

If you want to change your viewpoint, just say so. All due respect will be given, but don't change then claim to be disussing one and the same thing all along.

Nuff said.

Murray P

POTUS
27-10-2004, 02:22 PM
> > You are saying, and I've heard this nonsense touted
>> before, that a business does not have to abide by any
>> other rule or law, ethical, moral or otherwise. That
>> is, other than to answer to it's shareholders?

>>> All these companies exist solely for the purpose of making a profit,
>>> their only responsibility is to their investors

The difference between what I wrote and what you say I meant is simply that I never claimed:

> that a business does not have to abide by any other rule or law, ethical, moral or otherwise

I never even insinuated it.

>>>> The moral ethics "not constant" argument is a bit spurious to say the least. It's about as constant as the law, one follows the other, they are intertwined.

Moral ethics, in NZ, are not constant. For instance, 30 years ago it was effectively illegal to be a practicing homosexual - it was considered morally repugnant. Now society is considering giving gays the right to "civil union"

A few short years ago the use of the word "bugger" on TV would have been unethical. These are just two example of the shifting nature of morallity in modern society.

One of the major divisions between the western world and Islam (topical) is the fact that we have adopted a set or moral ethics that would have been alien to our ancestors, but Islamic culture still hold on to morallity of yesterday. We call it modern and expect them to embrace our new world.

Common Law is the result of public morals. Our law makers do not judge what is moral only what is legal - how can they, they're not trained in that area.

BTW I'm content to discuss these issues with you, I won't insult you and I ask that you refrain from insulting me. Or don't your morals come up to that level?

metla
27-10-2004, 02:33 PM
Homosexuality is morally repugnant,The difference is now sociaty understands they have no right trying to enforce their values into other peoples bedrooms.

POTUS
27-10-2004, 02:40 PM
Let's not turn this into a debate about gay rights. I used that as an example of changes in society.

JJJJJ
27-10-2004, 02:45 PM
"Gay" is the wrong word. "Queer" is the one I use. And I know plenty of others.
Jack

Biggles
27-10-2004, 03:46 PM
Can we please keep this on topic. Enough said.

Biggles
27-10-2004, 03:49 PM
Oh, and a bit more friendly would be nice. You guys know how to be friendly don't you? Of course you do.

Murray P
28-10-2004, 11:05 AM
&gt; Oh, and a bit more friendly would be nice. You guys
&gt; know how to be friendly don't you? Of course you do.


Yessir, sorrysir, wont happen again :_|

I unreservedly apologise to all that I insulted and abused :)

Cheers Murray ;P





PS. Homosexual broadband [sic] users, I think your getting the raw end.