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JJJJJ
11-10-2004, 07:56 AM
Not a word on the forum about Local body elections. Looks like everyone is about as interested as I am.
Jack

ApeNz
11-10-2004, 08:18 AM
well seeming as there was less then 50% turnout of voters in most areas i will have to think so

whiskeytangofoxtrot
11-10-2004, 08:35 AM
There were a few threads about it.

Winston001
11-10-2004, 11:03 AM
Any chance the rest of NZ can stop paying petrol tax for Auckland's roads now Dick Hubbard is mayor?

MartynC
11-10-2004, 11:23 AM
> Any chance the rest of NZ can stop paying petrol tax
> for Auckland's roads now Dick Hubbard is mayor?

i don't want to moan, but can we have all the tax money (Income Tax, GST, Company Tax etc etc) we give out from Auckland back? (ie on your Hospitals, Schools, Pensions etc etc) that way, we would have about 15 Billion dollars or more (Guess ;)) lying around :D

Murray P
11-10-2004, 12:58 PM
Faulty reasoning Martyn.

GST, income tax is taken across the board and (supposedly) allocated across the board with the odd exception, therefore Auckland will get the lions share of the tax spend based on population. However, a specifically targeted tax that only benefits Auckland at the expense of the rest of the country is iniquitous. I know Auckland has some unique problems but, so do other areas and really Aucklands problems are largely of their own making with little done by Aucklanders to fix them.

Jack, I was more interested in the Auckland election than our local one. Besides being highly entertaining, I was interested to see if Banksie had pulled the wool over the rate payers eyes enough for another term.

Cheers Murray P

Pete O\'Neil
11-10-2004, 01:27 PM
Everyone goes on about how its not fair that the rest of the county has to pay to fix Auckland. But if it wasnt for Auckland then NZ would more third world than it already is. If they havent already moved off shore then the majority of bussinesses are based in Auckland, 1/3 the population is based in Auckland. A large proportion of the countries wealth is created in Auckland, fixing Auckland will indirectly benefit the whole country.

metla
11-10-2004, 01:30 PM
Auckland generates enough money to fix their problems without me being hit in the pocket thank you very much.

Scouse
11-10-2004, 01:32 PM
>I was interested to see if Banksie had pulled the wool over the rate payers eyes enough for another term.
Interesting to see that National are wooing him again to stand for Central Gment!!

Winston001
11-10-2004, 01:52 PM
Actually Pete and Martyn, NZ's wealth is directly generated by the provinces. Dairy, lamb, wool, forestry, and fishing. Not very exciting but that is how it is.

The money we all use to buy petrol and computers (which come from overseas) is earned by these exports.

Auckland does some exporting but it is minor compared to the above list.

Mostly the Auckland economy is the internal consumption of goods and services. And most of that is consumed by Aucklanders.

I cannot think of anything I need which can only be obtained from Auckland.

Go to Christchurch and try to convince yourself that we need Auckland to stay out of the third world.

Actually I like Auckland well enough. I simply wish our media and politicians would be more honest and acknowledge that it isn't any more important than anywhere else.

Pete O\'Neil
11-10-2004, 02:21 PM
> Go to Christchurch and try to convince yourself that
> we need Auckland to stay out of the third world.
If it wasnt Auckland it would be another large center that everybody loved to hate. At the end of the day irrelevant of what its called there will always be atleast one large centre with a large proportion of the countries population and a large proportion of the countries bussiness.

Irrelevant of whether you can get whatever you want in Christchurch or not, just about all products unless made locally will go through Auckland. Auckland trafic indirectly affects the entire counrty, if it takes the container twice as long to get from the wharf to the factory because of trafic congestion you'll pay for it at the shop. NZ imports far more than we export, Auckland is NZ link to the rest of the world, whether you like it or not its in NZ's best interest to solve Aucklands problems.

The dairy, lamb, wool, forestry, and fishing may be based in the provinces but the men in suits that sell it to the rest of the world will be based in Auckland. If it wasnt for the like of Fonterra then the men and woman who directly generate our wealth would be a lot worse off.

>I simply wish our media and politicians would be more honest and acknowledge that it isn't any more important than anywhere else.
Thats a fair enough request, it would also be nice if those people south of the bombay hills would give a lil credit where credit is due. It might be full of suits who drink coffee but Auckland play a big role in keeping this country a float.

beetle
11-10-2004, 03:33 PM
I must admit i do not agree with what you say Pete, Auckland is not the be all and end all of the country.

there are some much busyier ports around the country side, and Wellington has direct flights in and out as well, so you can bypass jafa land happily.

next youll be telling us with out auckland there would be no such thing as NZ ?

?:|

no offence intended.

beetle

Pete O\'Neil
11-10-2004, 03:44 PM
I dont think that Auckland is the bee all and end all, what im trying to get across is that Auckland plays a large roll in NZ, us Aucklanders continually get ****. If Auckland was to suddenly disapear tomorrow all you Auckland haters would have to watch you pennies far more closely. The cost of not having Auckland would be far greater than some petrol tax. Having such a large proportion of the countries population situated in one place has immense benefits for the rest of the country.

I dont expect any of you to agree or even consider what im saying, you cant teach an old dog new tricks. Most of you probably just dislike Auckland because its the fashionable thing to do.

beetle
11-10-2004, 03:53 PM
Sorry you feel that way, but same can be said for stick in the mud jafa's as well.
sometime's they just cant see past their own nose.




beetle

Winston001
11-10-2004, 03:58 PM
.
> If it wasnt Auckland it would be another large center
> that everybody loved to hate.

I agree. It wasn't always so. The Auckland and the Rest division only arose in the early 1980s

> just about all products
> unless made locally will go through Auckland.

Tell that to the ports of Timaru, Lyttleton, Wellington and Taraunga.

> NZ imports
> far more than we export,

Oddly, yes. But that's a national problem.

> If it wasnt for the like of Fonterra then
> the men and woman who directly generate our wealth
> would be a lot worse off.

Fonterra is simply the latest version of milk cooperatives which have existed profitably for decades. Cities are entirely irrelevant.

> It might be full of
> suits who drink coffee but Auckland play a big role
> in keeping this country a float.

I have to disagree here Peter. I sincerely believe that Auckland plays at best, a minor role in keeping NZ on a sound economic footing.

Probably we should make a distinction between ordinary decent Auckland people, and Auckland as a political objective. Nothing wrong with the people at all. But the region itself represents lots of votes so our national politics are slanted towards one place.

Peter, can you imagine what it feels like to buy petrol here? We pay more than you do per litre to start with, and now pay an extra 6c/litre for roads 1500km away. The roads into Queenstown are a bit squashed now so how about another 2c from everyone to help out?

Pete O\'Neil
11-10-2004, 04:09 PM
>Peter, can you imagine what it feels like to buy petrol here? We pay more than you do per litre to start with, and now pay an extra 6c/litre for roads 1500km away. The roads into Queenstown are a bit squashed now so how about another 2c from everyone to help out?
I can see your point of view, but i feel that if we didnt do something about Aucklands roads and other problems then you would be paying that 6c elsewhere, increased transportation costs etc If it wasnt for large centers such as Auckland, Christchurch, or Wellington we would lose any benefit we've gained from economies of scale, the small centres need the cities as much as the cities need them. Alas i dont have any proof so i shall admit defeat.

Rob99
11-10-2004, 05:00 PM
If we could only squeeze that fat jafa filled zit off the end of this great country we would all be a lot richer.

alphazulusixeightniner
11-10-2004, 05:27 PM
"The roads into Queenstown are a bit squashed now so how about another 2c from everyone to help out?"

They are widening the one way bridge into a two-way bridge through the devils staircase. ;)

Murray P
11-10-2004, 07:27 PM
> I can see your point of view, but i feel that if we didnt do something about
> Aucklands roads and other problems

Artificially enhancing what Auckland doesn't have is not the answer, if you understand what I mean. It would be better to not encourage Aucklands growth, then work with what you've got.

> then you would be paying that 6c elsewhere, increased transportation
> costs etc

No, not necessarilly, a 4 lane motorway is not twice the cost of a two lane provincial highway on equivalent topography, it's probably more like 3 or 4 times the cost plus, the concentration of vehicles on relatively shorter kilometres means the city roads require more maintenance.

We are all paying for Auckland lack of investment in public transport systems.

> If it wasnt for large centers such as Auckland, Christchurch, or Wellington
> we would lose any benefit we've gained from economies of scale,

Economies of scale are overated, especially as NZ ain't that big in the first place and, with such a long distance relatively to the rest of the country, overall we lose a lot of the benefit in icreased transport costs and poorer service outside the main manufacturing/service base.

> the small centres need the cities as much as the cities need them. Alas i
> dont have any proof so i shall admit defeat.

True to an extent.

Cheers Murray P

Pete O\'Neil
11-10-2004, 07:42 PM
>No, not necessarilly, a 4 lane motorway is not twice the cost of a two lane provincial highway on equivalent topography, it's probably more like 3 or 4 times the cost plus, the concentration of vehicles on relatively shorter kilometres means the city roads require more maintenance.
I dont understand what you mean? What i was trying to say is that if a truck takes twice as long to deliver goods to a shop because of congestion then the truck driver is going to charge the manufactuer more. These costs are then pasted on to the consumer. Manufactuers dont charge people in Auckland a different price to those in the rural areas, price increases effect everybody.

drb1
11-10-2004, 08:06 PM
Winston,

Was that not a little low?

1/3 of the population live in the Auckland provience.

1/4 of the "petrol tax revenue" for the nation comes from that provience.

This revenue has for 40 + years been stolen by sucessive goverments, slipped into the consolidated fund, to buy their cheap booze and lunches, and fund so many many projects out side the Auckland Provience.

Ten Billion $ over 10 years is an insult to Auckland.

As auckland continues to strangle itself and die , it is taking YOUR National Economy, and living standards with it.

The Auckland tax in the Auckland reigon attitude sounds nice, it is Nationally impratical,

Clark made the tax individual and direct to further the stupid devide and rule polotics, and social spending (Maori and Economicially disadvanteged vote buying) of labour.

One way or the other every body else Must pay back to Auckland, or suffer the concequences.

The Irony is that Aucklanders are again paying twice,while every body else still gets a free ride on, Auckland reigon Tax.

Originally from CH CH

D.

fairway
11-10-2004, 09:00 PM
Next to a good movie politics is my favorite passtime(at the moment) yes I voted .. but to no avail :-( in Jjafa land it seems, BUT for those that want to know how we get swindled, out of a tax break check this out .. http://www.bnz.co.nz/binaries/w300904.pdf

Winston001
11-10-2004, 09:07 PM
Oh dear. I think we'll have to agree to disagree. The NZ Statistics Department site gives access to accurate data on tax and export income for anyone interested.

fairway
11-10-2004, 09:09 PM
Murray p
Your mate Banksie, he left Auckland City with no debt. I believe the only council in NZ with a ZERO debt..
so what's on your credit card these days .. ?

And whilst I'm hot on this "Hellen" (your favorite I guess) has a 5% excise tax to go on petrol in April next .. along with several other "stealth" taxes

So we are not dumb.. just mis-informed .. ? or are we sleeping?

I need a coffee

Elephant
11-10-2004, 09:26 PM
>
> Irrelevant of whether you can get whatever you want
> in Christchurch or not, just about all products
> unless made locally will go through Auckland.
Hmmm... Why is it then that Fonterra previously known as NZMP (New Zealand Milk Products) is tossing up between sending products out of Auckland or Tauranga. This has to do with the shipping Companies does it not? If I had a ship and I can pick up Logs and Cheese I would prefer to go to Tauranga for the port of choice. Down here in the South Waikato we do logging and cheese. I am directly involved in trucking Fonterra products and byproducts from Lichfield. This is mostly byproducts from the dairy industry. Please note that 10 minutes from where I live is the biggest cheese factory in Australasia.

In Tokoroa there are no traffic lights. No gridlock. No "Eastern highway" or alternatives. I have the Internet Broadband with no datacap which costs me $61.88 per month. I recently bought a house here fror $43,000 with a 1/4 acre section.

Why would I go to JAFA land?

If you want to live in Auckland then feel free.

> Auckland trafic indirectly affects the entire
> counrty, if it takes the container twice as long to
> get from the wharf to the factory because of trafic
> congestion you'll pay for it at the shop. NZ imports
> far more than we export, Auckland is NZ link to the
> rest of the world, whether you like it or not its in
> NZ's best interest to solve Aucklands problems.
>
We send trucks up the North Island and time these events very carefully for obvious reasons.

We also send trucks to New Plymouth. These events are not really timed as the traffic does not matter except through the Awakino gorge.

The dairy, lamb, wool, forestry, and fishing may be
> based in the provinces but the men in suits that sell
> it to the rest of the world will be based in
> Auckland. If it wasnt for the like of Fonterra then
> the men and woman who directly generate our wealth
> would be a lot worse off.
How many cows or sheep can you grow in Auckland?

I went to Waiheke Island a while ago and found people growing grapes etc. Fine. But land here that my boss just bought totals 3000 acres. There is more leased land down this way that would total the whole land mass of Waiheke.

The only other thing for me to say is is we don't grow it you can't ship it.

fairway
11-10-2004, 09:36 PM
well we could always move the port of Auckland to say Whangarei, or Whhanganui for that matter and direct ship by rail from there?
It would work, but, unfortunately would deprive aucklanders of their most desirable and needed traffic Jams, (that slooow pace on the motorways to sup me coffee in the mornings)

And Winston, When did you ever start believing anything the government published? Smoke and mirrors they are .. I liked that quote..

drb1
11-10-2004, 09:36 PM
ElE,

43 in toke would have to be rather nice, but you can not deny you mainstay is still boom and bust forestry.

My industry, in your area forest.

We both know what is really happening there at the moment.

My goddaughters parents just dumped their home in Pataruru for this reason.

Your in dairy, your reasonably safe.

What about all the now unemployed or retrenched mill workers down the road.

D.

metla
11-10-2004, 09:40 PM
>>What about all the now unemployed or retrenched mill workers down the road??


All shipped off to South Auckland.....

Elephant
11-10-2004, 09:48 PM
> We are all paying for Auckland lack of investment in
> public transport systems.
Probably.
Back in the 1970s I worked as a traffic officer for the Auckland City Council. Sir Dove-Myer Robinson was the Mayor in Auckland City at that time. Light rail, ring roads were proposed at that time. I have to admit that I agreed with him at that time. Even then I lived in Mount Wellington and shopped in Panmure and did not go into Auckland City unless I had to.

Point duty on the intersection of Cook and Hobson St. I remember it well.

drb1
11-10-2004, 09:49 PM
Metla,

If that whsn't so true it would be funny.

The crazy thing is, those peolple flogged the good deal at the mills, soooo hard, for so long, and brought 4x4, boats, hunting equipment, ect ect, and did not pay off their Homes.

Now there is no immediate work for them.They can not afford to maintain there outgoings. They have to move, and loose their lifstyles, because of their shortsighted ness and greed.

Mess with CHH at your peril.

D.

drb1
11-10-2004, 09:56 PM
> > We are all paying for Auckland lack of investment
> in
> > public transport systems.

National?



> Probably.
> Back in the 1970s I worked as a traffic officer for
> the Auckland City Council. Sir Dove-Myer Robinson was
> the Mayor in Auckland City at that time. Light rail,
> ring roads were proposed at that time. I have to
> admit that I agreed with him at that time. Even then
> I lived in Mount Wellington and shopped in Panmure
> and did not go into Auckland City unless I had to.
>
> Point duty on the intersection of Cook and Hobson St.
> I remember it well.

Robbie was Right, no one would listen, Tight Wellington government would not invest. now Wellington and everbody else will pay more.

I see we have warred before ELE. Were you ever friendly with P. Davies?

D.

drb1
11-10-2004, 10:01 PM
Winston,

The Data on proportion spent in "Reigon" as oppoesed to Revenue gathered, is considerably harder to get a picture of, conviently, no?

Especially if one wished to draw a 40 year time line.

D.

Elephant
11-10-2004, 10:21 PM
> ElE,
>
> 43 in toke would have to be rather nice, but you can
> not deny you mainstay is still boom and bust
> forestry.
Forestry is still going in Tokoroa. Less so that it was. Shops in Tokoroa are less so than they used to be. No Farmers that used to be here. Kinleith used to boast about 4000 employees but now has about 400. Carter Holt just want to sell forests and just process logs and products.
I still see heaps of logging trucks on the road.

Recently some previously growing forest bits have been converted to Dairy Farms after having been logged.
> My industry, in your area forest.
>
> We both know what is really happening there at the
> moment.
>
> My goddaughters parents just dumped their home in
> Pataruru for this reason.
Putaruru has been going downhill for yonks. Tirau on the other hand has made itself into a craft centre. The town seems to be doing well there.

When you say they dumped there home what do you mean? Did they just walk out?

> Your in dairy, your reasonably safe.
>
> What about all the now unemployed or retrenched mill
> workers down the road.
Have they all gone to JAFA land? Who knows.
I did work for Tokoroa Buses and took these so called workers to work. Amazing how quite a few would take Wed, Thu and Fri off and work double shifts on Sat and Sun for penal rates. My brother in law worked at Kinleith for yonks and still has a job in Tokoroa as a fitter after being made redundant at Kinlieth. He is about the same age as I am. He received redundancy money.

Over 60 and can still get a job in Tokoroa.

Elephant
11-10-2004, 10:30 PM
>
> I see we have warred before ELE. Were you ever
> friendly with P. Davies?
Warred???

I post as I see it.

Remind me who P.Davies is and where I may have met Him/Her.

fairway
11-10-2004, 10:36 PM
Well.. all you Non-Aucklanders, I paid $4.00 for a 2lt of milk tonight.. (the coke was 2 for $4.00) Seems the money is in dairy farming ..

mikebartnz
11-10-2004, 11:24 PM
>Everyone goes on about how its not fair that the rest of the county has to pay to fix Auckland. But if it wasnt for Auckland then NZ would more third world than it already is.
Quite frankly I would be quite happy if it was cut adrift.
Part of Auckland's problem is that so many immigrants settle there. One in five people in Auckland were not even born in this country.

mikebartnz
11-10-2004, 11:28 PM
>A large proportion of the countries wealth is created in Auckland,
Wrong the largest part of NZ's wealth is still produce from primary produce. When the farmers do well so does the rest of the country although the effects tend to take longer to hit Auckland.

mikebartnz
11-10-2004, 11:33 PM
>If it wasnt for the like of Fonterra then the men and woman who directly generate our wealth would be a lot worse off.
If it wasn't for Fonterra the dairy farmers could be getting more money for their dairy fat. Their was one provincial factory that paid out about $1 per kilo more than Fonterra.

mikebartnz
11-10-2004, 11:35 PM
>Having such a large proportion of the countries population situated in one place has immense benefits for the rest of the country.
Name one.

fairway
11-10-2004, 11:36 PM
Geeezzzee Mike .. you've taken the milk out of my lattee... NZ wouldn't exist without us Aucklanders paying absolutely rediculous prices for your Milk?
And look at all the highly skilled migrants we re-train and send down to those quiet little towns .. admit it .. you would sink if you cut us adrift

mikebartnz
11-10-2004, 11:37 PM
>Tell that to the ports of Timaru, Lyttleton, Wellington and Taraunga.
Add Napier to that.

fairway
11-10-2004, 11:46 PM
Not much of a port in Timaru mate .. but Caroline bay is stunning at Christmas time .. look at all those $dollars$ us Aucklanders spend having our holidays down there .. admit it mate .. you's sink without us ..:-)

After all we gave you a decent Latte..?

drb1
11-10-2004, 11:53 PM
Ele,

Acc T/O Mr Phillip Davies.

The Red Squad, The "Clowns incident", and associated social issues in A.K Central.


Ring any bells, or where you fortunate enough to miss that period?

In Which case we have not warred before.

D.

mikebartnz
11-10-2004, 11:56 PM
>rediculous prices for your Milk?
It is not my milk as I am not involved in farming but unlike most Aucklanders I do appreciate what primary produce does for this country.
As for Auckland being cut adrift I probably wouldn't notice too much in regards to my lifestyle.

andrew93
12-10-2004, 12:13 AM
A fascinating thread....

> Well.. all you Non-Aucklanders, I paid $4.00 for a
> 2lt of milk tonight.. (the coke was 2 for $4.00)
> Seems the money is in dairy farming ..

A good point - this has been one of my pet rants for years. Consider the cost per litre of milk versus the cost per litre of petrol while taking into account the processes the raw materials & finished products went through before we purchased them. There is something seriously wrong when milk is almost twice the price of petrol.

And I'm with drb1 on the "Auckland" petrol tax - this is payback for years of underspend on Auckland transport by Parliament. I also wish to take this opportunity to extend a warm welcome to all those knockers to come to Auckland and experience the traffic first hand - task number 1 : try meeting a deadline across town any time between 8am and 6pm, Monday to Friday. We might even start with a cross-town delivery on a wet Friday afternoon. Then you may be a little more sympathetic. (and yes I have experienced Wellington and Christchurch "rush-hour" traffic and it's a bit like a Sunday evening drive in Auckland).

Like us or lump us, the rest of NZ is stuck with us so the sooner we can look at the bigger picture and deal with various issues on a national scale, then the better off we will be as a country. Individual pain for the greater gain.

My 2c

Murray P
12-10-2004, 12:22 AM
> Your mate Banksie, he left Auckland City with no debt. I believe the only
> council in NZ with a ZERO debt.. so what's on your credit card these days .. ?

My mate Banksie broke his election promise and hiked the rates, it's called debt transfer :^O In reality the debt burden of privately owned council enterprises will be underwritten by the ratepayers as well.

If Auckland does poorly, it does have an affect on the rest of the country but not always negatively. For eg, if Auckland's housing market comes a cropper the rest of us get an interest rate respite. However, if you want to look at the big picture, there is always going to be swings and roundabouts but if one area of NZ is persistently under-performing for whatever reason, sooner or later we all feel it.

Hmm! I have no idea what our credit card balance is, I hardly get the thing out of my wallet, preferring instead to pay by Eftps. No doubt my better 1/2 keeps it well exercised ;)

> This revenue has for 40 + years been stolen by successive governments,
> slipped into the consolidated fund, to buy their cheap booze and lunches,
> and fund so many many projects out side the Auckland Provience.

Agreed. Pilfering targeted taxes and losing them in the consolidated fund has been a time honoured tradition that has to stop. But hang on there, these *cough* appropriated taxes have been collected from me as well as you. The only differential tax I'm aware of is the one that benefits Auckland.

> Tight Wellington government would not invest. now Wellington and
> everybody else will pay more.

Just because they happen to reside down here part time don't palm them off on us. There are, after all, far more MP's elected in the Auckland region than anywhere else, they're yours ;)

Cheers Murray ;P

Murray P
12-10-2004, 12:33 AM
> I have experienced Wellington and Christchurch "rush-hour" traffic and it's a
> bit like a Sunday evening drive in Auckland).

Actually, statistics are now putting Wellington rush hour up there with Auckland's. Not sure how they did the math though, maybe per distance travelled.

BTW, if you want a decent coffee, you'll need to get it down here :D

The price of milk? Totally unjustified IMO. oops, common ground ;)

Cheers Murray P

drb1
12-10-2004, 12:44 AM
> > This revenue has for 40 + years been stolen by
> successive governments,
> > slipped into the consolidated fund, to buy their
> cheap booze and lunches,
> > and fund so many many projects out side the
> Auckland Provience.
>
> Agreed. Pilfering targeted taxes and losing them in
> the consolidated fund has been a time honoured
> tradition that has to stop. But hang on there, these
> *cough* appropriated taxes have been collected from
> me as well as you. The only differential tax I'm
> aware of is the one that benefits Auckland.

The Auckland reigon pays a lerger percentage than any other. and has consistently over time recived less than its fair share.

Over time this innequality makes the 1 B per year an insult. Especially as the lions share will be collected in the reigon. SO it is not 1 B from the rest of the country it is maybe less than 70% of that infantisimial ammount.

It should be 3 to 4 B per annum for 5 to 7 years minium.

A comprehensive overhead rail/highway system should be installed. With outerzone intergrated links. the fares would have to be subsidesed for some time.

You would then have a transport system that would bennifit the whole country as well as the reigon.

To much of the 1B per annum will be fritted away by out of reigon consultants, administrators, and expensive contractors.

The end result will not handell growth. or be efficient it is to road dialated.

Why?

Because Roading in New Zealand has allways been about Revenue for Centrall Govt.

Hence no cordinated national public transport innitiaves.

If everyone starts using P/T there is no revenue from radar guns and cameras or enforced spending on licences ect.

Wellington will not surrender this revenue source.

This is the core of the problem.

D.

Elephant
12-10-2004, 06:20 AM
Wasn't there at that time!!!

drb1
12-10-2004, 06:26 AM
Ele,

Luck you,

D.

k8smum
12-10-2004, 09:22 AM
<Your mate Banksie, he left Auckland City with no debt. I believe the only council in NZ with a ZERO debt.. >

Extract from this morning's DomPost Letters to the Editor:
"Show me a debt-free city council and I'll show you a place where nothing much happens"
:)

andrew93
12-10-2004, 09:54 AM
> Just because they happen to reside down here part
> time don't palm them off on us. There are, after all,
> far more MP's elected in the Auckland region than
> anywhere else, they're yours ;)

:^O
Nice responce Murray - that's why I used the word "Parliament".

> The price of milk? Totally unjustified IMO.
>
> oops, common ground

There's nothing wrong with common ground ...... ;)

drb1
12-10-2004, 10:02 AM
> > Just because they happen to reside down here part
> > time don't palm them off on us. There are, after
> all,
> > far more MP's elected in the Auckland region than
> > anywhere else, they're yours ;)
>
> :^O
> Nice responce Murray - that's why I used the word
> "Parliament".
>



2 off you, ok its time.

As they all come from up here maybe we should return parliment to the "Originall Capitall City" and save the rest off you all the travelling Expences.

The Street is even still there.

Then all the suits would be in one place, and there would be some small genuine reason for the rest of the nation to hate and despise AKL.

D.

Murray P
12-10-2004, 10:37 AM
> As they all come from up here maybe we should return parliment to the
> "Originall Capitall City" and save the rest off you all the travelling Expences.


> Then all the suits would be in one place, and there would be some small
> genuine reason for the rest of the nation to hate and despise AKL.

Why do you covet the seat of Government, jalous ;\

Like all unreasonable things a reason to hate and despise Auckland would defeat the purpose ;)

BTW, you can blame the Aussies for the shift, ah hum! I'll rephrase that, the rest of us can blame the Aussies for the shift

Cheers Murray ;P

jcr1
12-10-2004, 10:38 AM
With all due respects, Elephant, a couple of corrections;

>Fonterra previously known as NZMP (New Zealand Milk Products)

Was actually formed from the NZ Dairy Industry (mainly NZDG and Kiwi Dairies) excluding Tatua in the Waikato and Westland (independant coasters).

>Please note that 10 minutes from where I live is the biggest cheese factory in Australasia.

The biggest is the Whareroa site at Hawera (ex Kiwi Dairies) but soon to be overtaken by the Clandeboye site in the South Island.

Dairy Industry aside, I like going to Auckland from time to time; my daughter & her husband live there. There's always something interesting to see or do. But I think I'd rather live down here in the sticks of Eastern Taranaki.
My perception of Aucklands traffic problems is no worse than Sydney's; but public transport is no where near as good as their's. I think toll roads would be the answer (if public transport can't be a goer) then we wouldn't have people in the provinces grizzling about favouritism to Auckland and user pays is far fairer.
I suppose that with Aucklands political clout it is always going to have preferential treatment out of kilter with its productivity, which long term bodes not too well for the economy as a whole.
At least the suits in Auckland are trying to do something to further commerce, which is for the good of all of us. The suits in Wellington, go to morning tea and discuss how they can make someone's life a misery.

drb1
12-10-2004, 10:46 AM
Murray,

Want the pigs up here? No definatly NOT!

Your'e complaining about having them.

Youre saying to many of the are ours, and it's true.

I'm being fair, saying ok, send the mongrells back, and save some money on expences!

Then you say, were power hungry??????????

Mate,

D.

drb1
12-10-2004, 10:53 AM
> I suppose that with Aucklands political clout it is
> always going to have preferential treatment out of
> kilter with its productivity, which long term bodes
> not too well for the economy as a whole.

If the auckland petrol tax and ruc had allways been spent in the reigion, and not stolen of to the rest of the country. The transport problem would not exist.

Auckland does not get treatment in line with its political representation let alone above it.



> At least the suits in Auckland are trying to do
> something to further commerce, which is for the good
> of all of us. The suits in Wellington, go to morning
> tea and discuss how they can make someone's life a
> misery.
>
At least we can agree on something.

D.

jcr1
12-10-2004, 10:55 AM
>If it wasn't for Fonterra the dairy farmers could be getting more money for >their dairy fat. Their was one provincial factory that paid out about $1 per kilo >more than Fonterra.

You are probably referring to Tatua. Which is in a sense fortunate in that it's supply area is tight and in an extremely productive area. This is in no way taking anything away from the enlightened leadership that the Company has had in the past, in developing niche products which command a premium in the market place.
Fonterra on the other hand, because of it's huge supply, has to contend with commodities through good times and bad (as well, of course, selling value added products).

jcr1
12-10-2004, 11:05 AM
>If the auckland petrol tax and ruc had allways been spent in the reigion, and not stolen of to the rest of the country. The transport problem would not exist.

If the $800m siphoned off from the $3b collected from road tax, was spent where it should be, then I would say that Auckland's and the rest of the country's transport problems would be nowhere as bad.
The roading system is a national network and it is of crucial importance to everyone, Aucklanders included, that product from the provinces, gets to its destination.

I remain unrepentant about Auckland's political clout.

metla
12-10-2004, 11:15 AM
>>My perception of Aucklands traffic problems is no worse than Sydney's

After living in both cities returning to Auckland was a walk in the park so to speak,i took a fair amount of humour from the Aucklanders whinging and the complete ease i had getting around the place compared to Sydney.

Winston001
12-10-2004, 03:34 PM
&gt; The roading system is a national network and it is of
&gt; crucial importance to everyone, Aucklanders included,
&gt; that product from the provinces, gets to its
&gt; destination.

Unfortunately for the 3/4 of the population that do not live in Auckland, their main product to the city is their money. One way.

For example, the 6c/litre petrol tax, $30 million on an Americas Cup challenge - in Europe!, $80 million to buy the rail corridor from Transrail. And the purchase of the Westhaven Marina. Much more important than boring old roads.
&gt;
&gt; I remain unrepentant about Auckland's political
&gt; clout.

Understandable. But NZ is a tiny country. Divisions do not help our common identity to deal with the outside world. We can't function as a community if one (wealthy) section is susidised by the rest.

There is simply no justification in a wealthy country like NZ for one city to be singled out for special benefits.

fairway
12-10-2004, 06:19 PM
I stand by the statement that Banksie left auckland DEBT FREE
This alone should prove you are mis-informed (again) by the "leftish" media you so crave ....
So much is happening in Auckland I have trouble driving to the events :-)

Murray P
12-10-2004, 06:27 PM
> I stand by the statement that Banksie left auckland
> DEBT FREE

Seems his greatest legacy was fiddling the books. Sadly, ......... for him that ability didn't extend to gerrymandering :^O

BTW, the way the subsidies and handouts are flowing, shouldn't you be supporting our user pays free market ideals ;)

Cheers Murray ;P

fairway
12-10-2004, 06:35 PM
After a bit of digging around I managed to find out why we have extremely high domestic prices for our primary exported products (Milk, meat, wool fish etc)
We are the ONLY country in the world that does not subsidize food, Or any other product for that matter, We pay export prices.

Note: This years average payout to Dairy farmers was just over $400.000.oo per person.
The reality of this is we are a small country of fools, ripping each other off, because we can't see the bigger picture.
Like...? Australia has NO GST on food Products ..

With this socialist government we have now one would think the feeding of the "masses" would be one of the most basic points to start ??
well I would, and I am not a socialist.

fairway
12-10-2004, 06:41 PM
Murray .. Is that your hand out looking for something from Hellen again?

It is all about being responsable, for your own actions would start ..
You accuse Banksie of fiddling the books ? Where are you at .? Just watch your mate cullen fiddle the books with the 5 billion dollar surplus that is OUR money .. not the governments ..

The more responsable you become the less government you need.. prey tell, will basic logic prevail?

Murray P
12-10-2004, 06:51 PM
Fairway..., left, right, socialist, conservative are only convenient tags for the politicians at election time. There has been no truley (credable) socialist party for 30 years or more in NZ. Some of our current policies are "right" of the Republican party.

Where our main parties sit on the political spectrum is about right for me. If they claim major differences it's merely marketing spin. The main worry for me is of resources, the human kind, there just isn't that much talent amongst that bunch anymore. Too much muddle-headed thinking.

Hey Jack! You going to rejoin the fray? ;\

Cheers Murray P

Winston001
12-10-2004, 07:59 PM
Yeah, great thread Jack. Well done.

Murray, "gerrymandering" is exactly the term I was thinking of. It describes the situation where a minority of voters have disproportionate political representation. For example, 120 seats in Parliament but 70 of them are for a lot of small electorates in one area. Thus they control Parliament.

Naturally that couldn't happen here. We have population based electorates spread evenly throughout the country.

But hang on - theres something else. List MPs. Hmmmmmm........ and they are spread all around the country? Nope. Not a chance. Home to Auckland every Friday.

Ok I exaggerate. But it is true that approximately half of our Parliament is drawn from the Auckland area and party boundaries evaporate when Auckland matters arise. There is disproportionate representation.

So we'll all come and join you. Build lots of roads, more shops and houses - what fun. And then wonder why we don't have any foreign currency to buy all those imports which exceed our exports each year. :O

fairway
12-10-2004, 08:08 PM
It's all right Winston, we're all going to become RIcH as dairy farmers and hellen will save us ...

fairway
12-10-2004, 08:27 PM
JCR

I first ran into toll roads in Boston, the "Mass Pyke" fortunately there are 10 other roads into the town.

They will only work if there is no alternate route.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3599328&thesection=news&thesubsection=general

Why pay again for something we have already paid for?, in our road user charges and our petrol taxes. All NZ'rs understand that.
The issue with Auckland is a matter of Town Planning, the lack of it, successively each new administration tries and succeeds at doing nothing (except Banksie) Aucklanders will not have a Roading or Rail system in the near future, there is no concensus amongst the people therefore nothing will happen.
I do believe Mr. Hubbard will clean the streets of Auckland and make it a beautifully wonderful city to visit .. pixies and fairies to boot..!
Soft moderates always appease but never achieve.

andrew93
12-10-2004, 08:45 PM
> So we'll all come and join you. Build lots of roads,
> more shops and houses - what fun. And then wonder why
> we don't have any foreign currency to buy all those
> imports which exceed our exports each year. :O

The sooner we (as a nation) wake up and realise the more foreign products we consume, the harder we are making it for ourselves and future generations, then the sooner we can do something about it.

I agree that Auckland may not pull it's weight by contributing to exports to the same extent as other regions but there are a number of "intangible" benefits for the rest of NZ. Benefits aside, if Aucklanders are going to be the largest group of "consumers" (by sheer weight of numbers) then the least we could do is buy NZ-made products, support NZ businesses and make it hard for the importers. (I have nothing against importers, it's just that if we consume imported goods then we don't consume local goods which hurts us in the long run).

However, quid pro quo, we (Aucklanders, and the rest of the country for that matter) shouldn't expect to get shafted by the dairy companies. See my previous comments on the relative prices of petrol and milk. Exports account for approximately 95% of Fonterra sales and they are very quick to put up the local prices when the exchange rate moves accordingly, but never put the prices down when the exchange rate goes back the other way. Crikey - the local dairy companies could give free milk to NZ citizens forever without so much as putting a dent in their profitability. Bring back free milk for school children!
[/end rant]

However, my point is that Winston touched on a good point and this is basicly a "call to arms" to support local business. The only way we can make ourselves stronger as a nation is to import less and export more.

My 2.5c (at todays exchange rate)
:)

fairway
12-10-2004, 09:06 PM
Was it 7 or 8 car importers on the "top 100" rich list this year?
Perhaps it may be better than cow farming?

drb1
12-10-2004, 09:27 PM
>
> Unfortunately for the 3/4 of the population that do
> not live in Auckland, their main product to the city
> is their money. One way.
>
> For example, the 6c/litre petrol tax, $30 million on
> an Americas Cup challenge - in Europe!, $80 million
> to buy the rail corridor from Transrail. And the
> purchase of the Westhaven Marina. Much more important
> than boring old roads.

All though any funds to compete overseas for Americas cup are complete hypocrisy as Helen would not contribute to keep a National Tourist/Trade Asset when it was here."Because it was in Auckland". How does the Bill get tagged onto AKL now?

80 for the Rail corridor tied into all the other foolishness in the sale/repurchase of Rail, promoted by: self intrested, Idiot, Academic's and Politicoes. This also is all Aucklands fault now?

> > I remain unrepentant about Auckland's political
> > clout.
>
> Understandable. But NZ is a tiny country. Divisions
> do not help our common identity to deal with the
> outside world. We can't function as a community if
> one (wealthy) section is susidised by the rest.

1 section "Auckland" has been subsidiseing the rest for 40 + years, because it never recieves it fair share of the tax it pays.

This simple FACT makes all arguments about the rest subsidiseing Auckland untennable.

You can unnessecarily go back 150 years and find possible wrongs to right for an over priviliged Ethnic minority. But you will not admitt, let alone right, the tax injustice to "Auckland".

You position here leads to the equally unrealistic "Fine, all Auckland tax spent in the Auckland reigon positionn" as an opposite.


> There is simply no justification in a wealthy country
> like NZ for one city to be singled out for special
> benefits.
>

Since when was getting something you have paid for 10 times over become a specialy bennifit?

Winnston, are you playing Devils Advocate? Taking a position to Debate?
Or this a real personal position?

D.

Rich Man
12-10-2004, 10:52 PM
Listen here:
1. I have not a drop of Maori blood.
2. I earn $200,000 per year.
3. I was never sexually abused as a child.
4. I was never really bullied at school.
5. I don't get any benefit/pension/ACC.

Now, these people who are either Maori, poor, were sexually abused or bullied or are beneficiaries are getting all this money from Helen and my taxes are being used to provide this money. What I want to know is how I can get my hands upon some of this money that was mine in the first place, but was stolen from me by IRD.

Perhaps there should be a ministry for downtrodden people like me?

R2x1
12-10-2004, 10:58 PM
>Winnston, are you playing Devils Advocate? Taking a position to Debate?
>Or this a real personal position?

I imagine that is dependent on what coin the devil pays his advocates in ;)

fairway
12-10-2004, 11:19 PM
Welcome, Rich man (you're not a car dealer are you?) ;-)
We seem to be in a minority these days, after all it is quite fashionable to have closet door swinging both ways these days.
To be perfectly honest we need to get creative, find a good theme, then set up support groups, while this is all happening we go directly through the Media and "protest" the dilema... the obvious result would see us unendated with sympathy and heaps of someone else's Hard earned tax dollars, that and a Govt. grant to study this theme further.

waddya think?

drb1
12-10-2004, 11:28 PM
> >Winnston, are you playing Devils Advocate? Taking a
> position to Debate?
> >Or this a real personal position?
>
> I imagine that is dependent on what coin the devil
> pays his advocates in ;)

R2

Thats not very nice.

D.

drb1
12-10-2004, 11:36 PM
Rich man,

What is your tax consultant up to?

Laywers, need 2, 1 to tell the truth to, and get advise from, on all loopholes, and how to doge, bend, avoid, commit crime and get away with it Ect.

Tell second lawyer what he needs to know to win, simply put.

Tax consultants/lawyers same.

Your direct personall income is too high change this.

D.

fairway
13-10-2004, 12:00 AM
Nothing wrong with a Tax consultant but they seem to take more money than they save these days .. the loopholes are harder to find.

The idea now I rekon is to spend money (selectively) to save money.

R2x1
13-10-2004, 12:10 AM
&gt; R2

&gt;That's not very nice.

&gt;D.

Given that one description of his profession (or sections of it) is "advocate", and a requirement of a professional is that one is paid for his endeavours, I imagine that Winston is not likely to consider a collection of souls as a negotiable coin.
Also, Winston is considerably better at returning borax than I am at poking it. If any offence is taken, none was intended, as evidenced by the ;)
R2

drb1
13-10-2004, 02:36 AM
R2,

Sorry I dont speak smiley.

It was a light friendly, thats not nice.

Not a WTF one.

D.

Winston001
13-10-2004, 09:53 AM
> >Winnston, are you playing Devils Advocate? Taking a
> position to Debate?
> >Or this a real personal position?

No offence taken R2 ;)

And Drb1, probably a bit of both. I do resent the petrol tax, America's Cup funding etc because this is a transfer of wealth (through taxation) from the general population to benefit one city. The America's Cup is irrelevant to most Kiwis outside Auckland - and most Americans for that matter.

If Ak was a poor community, then that would be different. But it isn't. Being able to pay an average house price of $240,000 implies that the residents are well off. If they weren't, the prices paid would be more realistic - perhaps $100.000. I know you might say people are forced to pay these prices - but they aren't. If a buyer can't raise a deposit and have enough income to pay a huge mortgage, the bank will not make the loan. Prices would drop. But they don't.

I didn't know that Ak people pay the most tax and it is taken away from them. If this is true, then I would reconsider the argument.
Any references?

I can say that a few years ago it was revealed that the residents of the Chathams and Stewart Island contributed more money to the NZ economy than anywhere else. This was because of paua and crayfish exports. These places never received an equal share of their tax.