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kiki
24-07-2004, 03:08 AM
Hi,

I recently got my new Phillips 109P40 monitor yesterday (supposedly a professional apeture grill tube one) and the brightness/glare on it seems very high. It's making my eyes really sore actually. It's hard to look at for too long and you have to close your eyes for a few secs before you can look again.

I had a similair problem with my old PC Company Likom monitor and that it was pretty bright and the brightness/colours and contrast were all stuffed up. It was similiar to the eyestrain you get by looking at a 60Hz monitor for a long time.

Anyway it's pretty bright. I even had some family members work on the computer for 5 minutes each and they were getting sore eyes too, too much glare/brightness. So how can I fix this??

I've configured the monitor with the program that was on the CD and that fixed some things. The monitor is on 0% brightness at the moment and 100% contrast. Default was 50% brightness. Also in the Display Properties/Colour tab I've turned the brightness down to -60 and contrast is at 100 (default). That dulls the colours slightly (white is nearly a light grey).

The monitor is running at 1280x1024x32bit at 100Hz refresh. Sitting 40-50cm away from it.

I'm looking to try and keep the right colours/gamma to get the colours correct in Photoshop, but I don't want sore eyes :(

Any help would be much appreciated :)

kiki
24-07-2004, 03:11 AM
Oh the link to the monitor is here (http://www.ascent.co.nz/mn-product-spec.asp?pid=108293). Now you know what I'm talking about ;)

Laura
24-07-2004, 03:48 AM
Looks wonderful.
I'm green with envy.
According to that website guff, there's no flicker or anything that you could possibly find a problem with...
(Mind you, the *brilliant blazing* video might be a bit hard on the eyes..)
I leave it to the experts for answers.
That's apart from the obvious one, which of course you know (Something wrong with it-you take it back) That's no fun for new toys, though, is it?.
Just a thought from another person weird enough to be posting at this hour ..and basically giving you no help whatsoever.
Night Owls of the World Unite...

kiki
24-07-2004, 03:54 AM
:^O Indeed. Off to bed now though.

Not too keen on taking my new toy back at this stage, we'll see. An LCD should be better on the eyes in theory, but this is for graphics work too ;)

kiki
24-07-2004, 04:17 AM
Ok, I've uploaded a photo from the camera to show the nuclear radiation being emitted from this thing.

They say a picture says a thousand words. (http://sal.neoburn.net/imagef1/files/monitor-bright.gif)

Obviously it's not that washed out the picture isn't that white, it's much clearer, but a pic at night time captures some of the light coming out of quite well.

Laura
24-07-2004, 04:32 AM
Does look bright, yes - but your wallpaper's got a fairly bright background, anyway.
Won't ask dumb questions like: Have you tried it with other stuff ?- as obviously you've tried every darned thing by now..
You need the Godfathers of this world to give you the real oil - so go to bed now & wait for the experts tomorrow. You've done all you can tonight..

Growly
24-07-2004, 08:27 AM
>The monitor is running at 1280x1024x32bit at 100Hz refresh. Sitting
>0-50cm away from it.

Have you run 1280 x 1024 x 32 with other 19" monitors in the past?

Maybe you're just tired?

Although I feel that the higher the Hz, the easier for the eyes, have you tried turning the refresh rate down a bit to see who that goes? I set mine around 75 Hz, and it's dandy.

Oh and the other thing I noticed about this "Flat" CRTs is that (like mine) they are really really bright compared to normal CRTs. I run mine at about 50% of full brightness all the time, and, perhaps more importantly, 83% of full contrast.

I find that full everything really makes my eyes cry - especially at night.

drcspy
24-07-2004, 08:28 AM
if you have some kinda nvidia graphics card make sure you got the latest drivers then use the 'digital vibrance' control to tone it down a bit looks to me like you got it on 'high' lol...........

Billy T
24-07-2004, 10:20 AM
Before you play with all those settings or look at drivers etc kiki, you need to set up the contrast and brightness correctly. Reset your monitor to the original default values then follow this procedure to set up brightness and contrast correctly.

Set both contols to zero then dim the lights. Next you advance the brightness until the screen is faintly lit. Now set the contrast to suit. That should be it, but a minor tweak of the brightness may be needed. Brightness is not really brightness at all, it is actually black level.

Go here (http://www.oh-bugger.net.nz/) and select iten 4 (greyscale steps) for a test pattern that is more reliable than the subjective results you get from actual screen images. The extreme left-hand bar should be black, and the extreme right-hand bar should be white with an even gradation between those two extremes.

You can check other aspects of the image display on this site as well, but all you really need to do is set the screen up as above then fine tune it to suit your lighting levels and eyes.

Then you can make other colour-related adjustments (if necessary) when working from a correctly-set brillance/contrast background.

No CRT based display should ever operate at 100% contrast setting, or ever need to for that matter, unless of course the 0-100% indicator is a totally arbitrary range that bears no relation to the actual video drive levels supplied to the CRT. It would surprise me a little if Philips used that sort of system, but I guess it could happen.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

Billy T
24-07-2004, 10:23 AM
Sorry kiki, that should have been Item 3, not iten 4 :( but I guess you would have picked that up pretty quickly.

Saturday morning-itis :8}

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
24-07-2004, 03:22 PM
> Set both contols to zero then dim the lights.

You mean make the room pitch black? Doh! It's daytime now, have to wait till later :p

> Next you advance the brightness until the screen is faintly lit. Now set the contrast to suit. That should be it, but a minor tweak of the brightness may be needed. Brightness is not really brightness at all, it is actually black level.

Ok the defaults on the monitor are 50% brightness, 100% contrast.
I've set it to 25% brightness, 75% contrast.

It's a little easier on the eyes, but still not perfect. Left eye seems a bit strained than the right now? The colours seem a little duller. It's definitely hard to find a balance between right colours and not hurting your eyes.

> Have you run 1280 x 1024 x 32 with other 19" monitors in the past?

This is my first 19" monitor. I had a 17" Likom monitor running at 1024x768x32bit before.

If it's a 19" monitor what is the correct resolution to be running it at? 1280x1024?

> Although I feel that the higher the Hz, the easier for the eyes, have you tried turning the refresh rate down a bit to see who that goes? I set mine around 75 Hz, and it's dandy.

Is it possible to get more eyestrain from 100Hz than saay 75Hz?

> Oh and the other thing I noticed about this "Flat" CRTs is that (like mine) they are really really bright compared to normal CRTs. I run mine at about 50% of full brightness all the time, and, perhaps more importantly, 83% of full contrast.

Indeed they are bright! :p What monitor are you running Growly?

Murray P
24-07-2004, 03:30 PM
Hi kiki

There was a wizard that came with Leadtek GeForce cards called WinFox or something (no idea if it still does) that was realy great at getting the best adjustment out of your monitor, whatever its condition.

Could dig it out and email it if you can't find it on the net.

Cheers Murray P

Billy T
24-07-2004, 03:52 PM
> You mean make the room pitch black? Doh! It's daytime
> now, have to wait till later :p

If you are at the experimentation stage, some activities just seem to go more successfully in reduced light.:|

You don't need pitch black though, just dim light that lets you see low levels of screen illumination.

> Is it possible to get more eyestrain from 100Hz than say 75Hz?

Very unlikely

This type of problem with a new monitor usually responds best to the KISS principle, so drivers and other hi-tech solutions are not necessarily going to do anything to help.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
24-07-2004, 03:52 PM
Oh I forgot to say I have a Radeon 9800 pro. Would that program work for it?

godfather
24-07-2004, 05:31 PM
Would these help? (http://www.buddyhollycenter.org/images3/gs/m-sunglasses.jpg)

mikebartnz
24-07-2004, 09:28 PM
One thing I usually do is set the Window background to a slightly off white which makes it far easier on the eyes. Not in Windows at the moment but from memory Right click in the empty desktop and choose properties/Appearance.
That will only help when using programs which have a white window background.

kiki
24-07-2004, 09:41 PM
Hahaha Godfather, not really.

I've been experimenting with the brightness/contrast as per the instructions. Thing is I can't get the right setting where its the correct white/black but its not hurting my eyes.

It's getting pretty bad now and my eyes are getting really sore, especially my left one. The right one seems to be handling the contrast a bit better. :(

I'm thinking this is a waste of my money. I paid $630 for this and I don't want it to make me blind!!

Why isn't it set up properly from the factory? X-(

Megaman
24-07-2004, 09:51 PM
will the on screen settings do anything?

kiki
25-07-2004, 01:17 AM
On screen settings? Yeah that's what I'm trying to configure at the moment.

Seriously considering getting a refund for this thing. It's worse than my old monitor. :(

Perhaps I can get a Philips technician on the warranty call-out service to configure it properly for me?

Maybe I'm getting some sort of RSI... possible?

Vince
25-07-2004, 05:07 AM
In My experience it is 'contrast' more than brightness that hurts the eyes. Try turning down the contrast, then adjusting the brightness to suit.' Vince

Vince
25-07-2004, 05:17 AM
> It's getting pretty bad now and my eyes are getting
> really sore, especially my left one. The right one
> seems to be handling the contrast a bit better. :(
>
If it is affecting one eye more than the other then you may need glasses, or new ones.
>
> Why isn't it set up properly from the factory? X-(

I think manufacturers set monitors to maximum at the factory so they will look good for display purposes in well lit shops during business/daylight hours. Vince

PaulD
25-07-2004, 09:06 AM
You mention Photoshop in one of your early posts. There's no end of help on the net for setting up monitors for image processing.
Try http://www.normankoren.com/makingfineprints1A.html
You need a logical process.

Billy T
25-07-2004, 10:30 AM
kiki

If you set up the brightness and contrast as I suggested then you will not end up with an over-contrasted or over-bright image. It is the transition from very bright screen areas to the relatively dark that causes your eyestrain, and if set correctly in subdued light only a minor tweaks of contrast and brighness should be necessary to compensate for ambient light. You should work in a well lit area too, as the constant compensation by your irises to cope with transitions in overall brightness will cause eyestrain every time.

That is why people have always been advised that they should not watch television in the dark, focussing on a small area of constantly changing brighness is a real problem. It is not the same in the movies because you focus on a larger area but some people still find it a strain.

It may be that the various other adjustments you have made have created additional issues because there is no way a monitor set up correctly on a greyscale step with black level first then contrast second will ever produce an over-driven image.

Correctly set, it should be comfortable to look at even in a dark room. Did the right-hand (white) bar look glary when you did that set up? If so, then incorrect video card settings or gamma adjustments may be perpetuating the problem.

Can you put your old monitor back and see how that looks now? You could compare its image on the greysacle steps to the Philips results and see what, if any, difference is present.

Like boot problems after multiple concurrent upgrade activities, you sometimes need to roll all the way back to the original state then come forward one step at a time to identify where the problem kicks in. I would certainly set the monitor back 100% to its factory defaults, undo any changes you have made to your computer then start again.

The only other possibility is that you have an undiagnosed eye problem that was not troubled by your previous setup but can't handle the improved image of the new monitor.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
25-07-2004, 11:47 PM
Well thanks to all who replied. :)

It's looking okay at the moment. I've got it at 0% brightness, 80% contrast. I feel that any lower dulls the colours too much.

Let me show you a photo (http://sal.neoburn.net/imagef1/files/monitor-setting.gif) again.

It's not as dulled out as that, that's just a bad camera.

I'm finding it a little easier on the eyes today though, left eye seems to have come right, perhaps I was just tired?

I bet Philips have a list of the correct settings for this monitor, so I might ring them up tomorrow. Or post around trying to find someone with the same one to compare settings.

Billy T
26-07-2004, 07:50 AM
That actually looks about right kiki. I am really surprised at the 0% brightness though, and now I woder if there is something wrong with the monitor setup ex-factory though that is very unlikely. Did you revert to monitor defaults and all other original settings before your final attempts? You could still be driving the monitor with a distorted brightness/contrast profile

You could also try the different colour temperature settings (9300K and 6500K) to see if one suits you better than the other.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
26-07-2004, 02:56 PM
Yeah the brightness doesn't do anything really, just whites the screen out. The contrast makes a big difference though.

I rung the Philips help desk. They were pretty useless as their response was:

"It's just user preference really, tone it down to what you feel comfortable with"

:| I'm saying it's either too bright/glary and hurts my eyes or it's too low and dark. I wanted some specific settings that were properly set up at the right level. Doesn't look like they have any. :|

I also have other issues with the settings like the shape to appear properly on the monitor, that's a real pain to set up because they have two controls for it, but one mucks up the other so when making adjustments it's a real dog. Also the text isn't as clear as it could be, so the convergence needs to be tweaked a little.

I would just prefer if they had someone that could come round and set it up properly because clearly it's not done from the factory.

Apparently they are going to get someone to ring me back... :|

Billy T
26-07-2004, 04:59 PM
Convergence errors show up as colour fringing kiki, so go back to the test pattern website and check on the white crosshatch on black background, and the black and white chequerboard for any colour fringing, especially at the sides and top of the screen, and even more so in the corners.

No colour fringing means no convergence errors and your text issues will be due to some other effect. Other than focus, I can't think what that would be right now, though again, drivers could influence results.

Can you let us know if you have taken everything back to defaults/original during this process? If not, you could still have drive issues left over from your earlier attempts to solve the problem.

The white-out with brightness increase certainly sounds weird, with it set to zero you should be able to get all the greyscale steps to be black across the first third of the screen.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
26-07-2004, 05:42 PM
Ok the convergence is set up correctly as close as it can get. Just some of the text was fuzzy at the bottom so I was thinking that might be to blame, but no.

Everything has been taken back to defaults. It's actually a clean install of Windows (on Friday) and fresh Catalyst 4.7 drivers with settings at defaults. Haven't touched any settings there. The monitor itself has been reset quite a few times.

> The white-out with brightness increase certainly sounds weird, with it set to zero you should be able to get all the greyscale steps to be black across the first third of the screen.

Not a chance of that happening. To get that happening I have to have brightness at 0% and contrast at about 9% contrast.

I'm now wondering about the colour pre-sets. There is

9300K for general use (what I've been using so far)
6500K for image management
5500K for photo retouch
sRGB
User Preset

9300K is sort-of where it hurts my eyes the most. White as anything.
6500K makes the colours sort of reddish and would take some getting used to
5500K is duller/reddish again
sRGB (what is this?) is not too bad on the eyes. It's set at 50% brightness, 100% contrast straight off and is quite similiar to 9300K but not as intense.

I'm going to put my old monitor next to this one and compare some things.

kiki
26-07-2004, 06:46 PM
Here's (http://sal.neoburn.net/imagef1/files/2screens.jpg) a comparison with my old monitor and the new one.

Murray P
26-07-2004, 08:44 PM
Definitely need to take Goddies advice and get some shades in front of your eyeballs kiki, ouch!

sRGB - Red, Blue, Green, but you knew that. Is there a specific colour scheme for you monitor in the monitor properties? You'll find sRGB, AdobeRGB (& varients) Sony, Hitachi, Philips (hopefully), etc. Could be worth having a play.

Cheers Murray P

agent_24
26-07-2004, 10:07 PM
Maybe somethings internally busted and overdriving the tube - its probably generating x-rays by now

lol

metla
26-07-2004, 10:12 PM
hmmmmm.......Thats a faulty monitor,has to be,i wouldn't accept that from a $200 proview.

kiki
26-07-2004, 11:02 PM
> Definitely need to take Goddies advice and get some shades in front of your eyeballs kiki, ouch!

:^O

> Maybe somethings internally busted and overdriving the tube - its probably generating x-rays by now

My thoughts exactly. :^O I was thinking the Taliban might have conjured up a plan to smuggle Uranium into NZ by hiding it in these monitors.

> hmmmmm.......Thats a faulty monitor,has to be,i wouldn't accept that from a $200 proview.

Certainly not from a $635 CRT either. :O

You can kind-of feel some energy being emitted from this thing. If I find that when I'm 50 I lose all my eyesight completely because this thing has deteriorated my eyesight, I'm going to be very pissed off.

I normally have excellent eyesight, no glasses, no issues at all. Now I'm considering going to an optometrist to get my eyes checked. What has this monitor done to me. :p

Honestly I can't set it up. If I lower the contrast it makes red look like maroon, and if I keep the contrast high, I start going blind and getting sore eyes. No win situation. Perhaps I should invite Billy over and he can get out his reading equipment and measure the EMF or something... *100mW* What you say!? :O

I can get a refund for this can't I? It arrived last Friday, so Ascent have a 7day right of return or something.

agent_24
26-07-2004, 11:43 PM
You should be able to get a refund - if not just sell it on trademe!

Billy T
27-07-2004, 07:48 AM
If you want a replacement, just send it back under warranty kiki. You are entitled to an immediate replacement so don't let them try to fob you off with the old "waiting for the manufacturer's approval" argument.

If you don't want a replacement, use the 7 day return option. For heavens sakes don't just sell it in Trade Me! Why should you incur a loss on what definitely appears to be a faulty monitor?

You have tried all reasonable options, and having seen your photos, in my professional opinion it does appear to be faulty.

My email address is on my profile if you need help off line.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

agent_24
27-07-2004, 11:13 AM
Dont worry, i was only joking about trade me :D

kiki
27-07-2004, 04:41 PM
Went into Boise Office Products today to have a look at some anti-glare/radiation screens. They didn't have any in for 19" monitors, but get this - a 3M 19-21" anti-glare/radiation screen costs $300! :O That would bring my moniter spending up to $935. Heck I could buy an awesome LCD for a bit more than that.

> My email address is on my profile if you need help off line.

Cheers, I may need it if Ascent start to get rowdy. :D I like the email address too. :^O

Thanks for all the help Billy, and everyone else. Much appreciated.

Billy T
27-07-2004, 04:59 PM
Those screens are not the answer kiki, in your situation fitting one of them is like installing giant water-cooled brakes so that you can keep driving a car with jammed accelerator.

Ascent shouldn't give you problems, your rights are very clear.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
27-07-2004, 05:13 PM
I said: "...in the proffesional opinion of BillyT(Dip.Opt, BSc, BEE), this monitor is faulty."

;) :D

No seriously, that won't be needed. I'm curious though - what qualifications do you have? You seem to know a lot about electrical type stuff.

> Those screens are not the answer kiki, in your situation fitting one of them is like installing giant water-cooled brakes so that you can keep driving a car with jammed accelerator.

How is that so?

PaulD
27-07-2004, 05:30 PM
kiki, you have a 3 year on-site ( that means at your place) warranty - why not get a tech out to sort it?

kiki
27-07-2004, 06:02 PM
> kiki, you have a 3 year on-site ( that means at your place) warranty - why not get a tech out to sort it?

Well that's an idea. I might ring tomorrow and see if they would. I got the impression from their tech support that they don't care and "just to set it up to my preference". I think that the tech might come round and look at it for 5mins, decide it's not too bright for him, but would in fact be too bright for me who has to look at it for many hours a day.

agent_24
27-07-2004, 06:22 PM
i wouldnt bother with getting someone to come and have a look - they would probably have to take it back to the workshop anyway. much easier to return it and get a different one or something.

PaulD
27-07-2004, 06:42 PM
That's the whole point of those setup routines for Photoshop etc. They take it beyond individual preference. If you can't get the brightness down how can the greyscale charts look right for a start?

Billy T
27-07-2004, 08:10 PM
>>I'm curious though - what qualifications do you have? You seem to
>> know a lot about electrical type stuff.

Oh, just a few in electrical and electronic matters, one in business management, a couple of others in specialised technical areas, but the real biggie is 40 years on-job experience. That's the one that is current and really counts.

> Those screens are not the answer kiki, in your
> situation fitting one of them is like installing
> giant water-cooled brakes so that you can keep
> driving a car with jammed accelerator.

>> How is that so?

You wear sunglasses because you can't turn down the sun, but you shouldn't have to put dark glasses on your monitor. The vehicle analogy is a bit obscure I guess, but the idea is you would fix the stuck accelerator to stop the car from racing away at full speed, not try to use the brakes to keep it to the speed you want.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

exLL
27-07-2004, 09:19 PM
>I said: "...in the proffesional opinion of BillyT(Dip.Opt, BSc, BEE), this monitor is faulty."
> ;-) :D
>No seriously, that won't be needed. I'm curious though - what >qualifications do you have?
>You seem to know a lot about electrical type stuff.

Billy didn't mention it, but a poster last year advised that, in his earlier years, Billy was a London University honours graduate physicist.

I thought you would be interested to know that.

>Why isn't it set up properly from the factory? X-(

A shopkeeper told me that even if a monitor was set up correctly at the factory, it would probably require further adjustment once it was moved to a different location, due to the magnetic variances of the earth. Don't flame me on this one, someone else might be able to shed some more light (or in your case, less brightness :D ) on the subject.

Cheers and good luck. :)

Billy T
28-07-2004, 09:24 AM
> A shopkeeper told me that even if a monitor was set
> up correctly at the factory, it would probably
> require further adjustment once it was moved to a
> different location, due to the magnetic variances of
> the earth. Don't flame me on this one, someone else
> might be able to shed some more light (or in your
> case, less brightness :D ) on the subject.

You are absolutely correct exLL, in fact I mentioned it in my FAQ #3:

>>Billy's tip: If you brought your screen in from overseas, it may be a Northern Hemisphere model and could need several degausses to get right, if it comes right at all. If in doubt, turn it upside down and degauss. If it looks ok upside down, that's the answer. Either take up Yoga or buy a new screen. This effect gets worse the further south you travel. I kid you not, would Billy lie?

The earth's geomagnetic field is far from constant and if a monitor setup is marginal, sometimes they will perform well in one location but not another. The simple test is always to rotate it to an E-W position, degauss thoroughly and see if it improves. Of course Sod's Law states that the orientation that gives the best results will always be 90 degrees opposed to the only possible orentation in your workspace!

The strength and angle of the earth's magnetic field varies between the equator and the poles, and naturally the polarity is reversed between north and south. There is also a further factor that causes the image to shift progressively sideways the further south (or north) you go. I can't quite remember the name of the effect but it is similar to solar wind. You can also observe this effect by turning a monitor upside-down. The image will move sideways by anything from a few mm to a cm depending on screen size.

Many years ago a NZ company developed a range of colour TVs from an international design. Their first model had very effective horizontal and vertical shift circuits that could correct any error by shifting the whole scanning raster with a DC bias, but their second dispensed with these completely and used image shift only. It worked fine from Wellington north, but the further down the South Island you went the further the picture shifted until in Invercargill it was 2-3 cm clear of the edge of the screen. It was necessary to develop a four component add-on mod pack to get it back to centre. They also dispensed with vertical centering too, and another mod was required to get the bottom of the image down to where it belonged.

TVs privately imported by immigrants from the UK or Europe also had these problems as they had a northern hemisphere tube.

The problem has lessened a little with technological advances but it still exists. Only LCD screens are immune. You can also get electromagnetic shields that you put your monitor inside and that eliminates the effects of stray external AC fields, and minimises the effect of the earth's geomagnetic field. They are not cheap, but for big graphics monitors (21") they are sometimes the only way to overcome environmental influences or eliminate screen shake from external fields.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

Dolby Digital
28-07-2004, 09:49 AM
I have a 19" Viewsonic which I find very good and I use different computers on it and therefore different video cards. The current video card as I write this is an onboard VIA I think and it is quite "dull" compared to my TNT2 M64 video card which is quite bright and "white". Is there any way you could borrow another pc with a different type of video card and try it. You shouldn't have to buy a new video card to go along with your new monitor but maybe this is a factor. I have to say that is why I like to use a monitor for a couple of days before I commit to the purchase. Of course most companies won't do this so I end up trying a monitor from my friend who sells pc's and they are second hand (which this one was).

I hope you get a satisfactory resolution.

Billy T
28-07-2004, 12:49 PM
I think we are well past any of those issues DD, the problem is much more fundamental than that and appears to be a basic factory (non-user)setup problem affecting the CRT operating conditions.

Incidentally I operate two computers through one monitor via a kvm switch, one with an ancient 2MB S3 Trio 64V2-DX/FX video card, and the other an onboard Nvidia Riva TNT on an Intel S440BX MB and they produce absolutely identical display characteristics. Doesn't really prove anything I guess, but video cards shouldn't affect the basic display proprties unless the drivers are doing something odd or the settings have been tweaked.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
28-07-2004, 03:37 PM
Mmm Interesting.

Another potential problem. I will have to send this back, and I was looking up courier prices. Courierpost for 25kg comes to about $100 island to island economy?! :O $20 for 5kg base ticket + 4 more to make up the 25kg? :O That is a load of money!

How do Ascent and others do it? They seem to be able to ship it down here for only $16-$25...

metla
28-07-2004, 04:06 PM
> Incidentally I operate two computers through one
> monitor via a kvm switch, one with an ancient 2MB S3
> Trio 64V2-DX/FX video card, and the other an onboard
> Nvidia Riva TNT on an Intel S440BX MB and they
> produce absolutely identical display characteristics.
> Doesn't really prove anything I guess, but video
> cards shouldn't affect the basic display proprties
> unless the drivers are doing something odd or the
> settings have been tweaked.

I would agree that the video card won't cause the issue covered in this thread, if it did then both Kiki's monitors would have the same problem.

I do however get different results covering a large margin when running different comps through the 3 monitors I have set up as work stations, The older video cards definitely have a poorer image quality with many not able to produce colours worth spit, initially noticeable is white showing up as grubby, and the blues tend to be noticeable as well.


Oh, and upgrade your video man, no need to torture your eyes with an S3 or a Riva TNT,it is 2004 after all :D

metla
28-07-2004, 04:08 PM
> Mmm Interesting.
>
> Another potential problem. I will have to send this
> back, and I was looking up courier prices.
> Courierpost for 25kg comes to about $100 island to
> island economy?! :O $20 for 5kg base ticket + 4 more
> to make up the 25kg? :O That is a load of money!
>
> How do Ascent and others do it? They seem to be able
> to ship it down here for only $16-$25...

Last time i priced a monitor to go down south it was going to cost 45 bucks or so,...I suggest you look again.

agent_24
28-07-2004, 04:11 PM
maybe you can get ascent to pay for the shipping?

kiki
28-07-2004, 04:18 PM
> maybe you can get ascent to pay for the shipping?

Well I had a video card die a few months ago and I asked if they paid for the return trip and their response was basically:

"NO YOU PAY FOR THE COURIER YOURSELF!"

But if they get cheap deals on couriers maybe they could bill my credit card and send me some tickets.

agent_24
28-07-2004, 04:21 PM
interesting.

Seagate pay for shipping of bad harddrives dont they?

kiki
28-07-2004, 04:30 PM
> Last time i priced a monitor to go down south it was going to cost 45 bucks or so,...I suggest you look again.

Yeah, but you have a business which entitles you to business accounts with whatever couriers you want.

Last time I rung up a few of the courier companies and asked them if they picked up items from residential addresses and basically they all said "no, you have to have an account with us", "no we only deal with businesses", "no, unless you've got pre-paid courier tickets which you have to buy from our Depo". CourierPost was the only one that would pick up the item for me, but I had to purchase the tickets from the post shop first.

Someone from Ascent suggested I use NZpost and they would still give a tracking number. I think they want me to walk this 1m box down to the post office.

metla
28-07-2004, 04:35 PM
hmm.,....actually i priced it through there website,someone wanted a 19' monitor sent down south,and i had only worked 5 bucks cartage into the price.......

And i take all my gear down to the courier in person,being a one man Ghetto Superstar i have to leave the shop in a moments notice and that means shutting the door while im gone,which throws a spanner in the works when the courier comes cruisin by in his pimp wagon.

Then i pop a cap in his ass and recite some big-noting street poetry at high velocity.

PaulD
28-07-2004, 04:43 PM
How does ON-SITE service warranty end up with you having to end it back yourself?

Billy T
28-07-2004, 04:45 PM
kiki

I'd go with the on site service and let the guy take it away with him. It is Ascent's problem and unless "buyer pays return freight on faulty goods" was a condition of the sale, and clearly apparent to a person of average eyesight and intellect, then you can ask them to provide the return courier tickets.

I wouldn't mind betting that the "sender pays" policy is based on return of unwanted goods and has a restocking charge attached as well.

It all depends on how much hassle you are prepared to endure I guess.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

metla
28-07-2004, 04:46 PM
> How does ON-SITE service warranty end up with you
> having to end it back yourself?



Thats a good point,the onsite service is provided by whoever the manufacter has contracted to supply it,Kiki should ring back the help line and tell them the unit is unusable and he either wants it fixed or replaced.

metla
28-07-2004, 04:47 PM
3 years on-site warranty 0800-657-447 / 0800-477-999

Dolby Digital
28-07-2004, 05:31 PM
>>and the other an onboard Nvidia Riva TNT on an Intel S440BX MB and they produce absolutely identical display characteristics.
I was rather surprised to see the difference, but it is there. Just an observation from another CRT user.

kiki
28-07-2004, 05:40 PM
> Thats a good point,the onsite service is provided by whoever the manufacter has contracted to supply it,Kiki should ring back the help line and tell them the unit is unusable and he either wants it fixed or replaced.

Yeah, I'm wanting a refund though. Could cause trouble. If I got a replacement, what's to say another monitor of the same won't have the same problems?

> I'd go with the on site service and let the guy take it away with him. It is Ascent's problem and unless "buyer pays return freight on faulty goods" was a condition of the sale, and clearly apparent to a person of average eyesight and intellect, then you can ask them to provide the return courier tickets.

Is that going to work if I'm wanting a refund not replacement? Might turn into a shambles. Ascent's FAQ (http://www.ascent.co.nz/faq.asp#returns) doesn't say anything like this, unless I've missed something. Seems like they just take a hard line on it.

> I wouldn't mind betting that the "sender pays" policy is based on return of unwanted goods and has a restocking charge attached as well.

Yeah well it's even sender pays on warranty issues as well (if it's gear other than monitors). Something stuffs up, so you send the broken item and you have to pay for it. Not too great if it wasn't your fault in the first place. The manufacturer of the item should have to pay for the postage for the faulty item.

I wouldn't say it's unwanted goods either. I'm claiming it's faulty, therefore I don't want it anymore, so refund. :(

PaulD
28-07-2004, 06:29 PM
Your choice I suppose but there's not much wrong with a good 109P.
I would have waited until the agent had tried to get it running properly or replaced it.

Laura
28-07-2004, 10:36 PM
I agree with Paul.
Get the agent to fix it at your place. Seemingly your guarantee provides for that..and it's what most people would do, surely?
But if you're determined to return it, I recommend Fastway Couriers as one I've used.
Told by a friend that NZ Post's couriers were very expensive for computers, I checked out a few firms 6 months ago.
Fastway is a franchise (Owner/operators in many centres. Check their website) and charged me $40 for a large box containing computer, monitor, keyboard & small speakers from Rotorua to Dunedin. That was door-to-door residential, so no depot visit needed at either end. You could get a quote for your requirements.
You do have to pack it safely yourself, of course.

kiki
28-07-2004, 11:02 PM
Thanks Laura and Paul, sounds like an idea. :)

Susan B
29-07-2004, 12:18 PM
Kiki - I would also take advantage of the onsite warranty as they can hardly argue with you when you have your other monitor alongside it to show them the difference. ;-)

kiki
29-07-2004, 04:50 PM
Ascent have told me that their supplier thinks this has never
happened before and need a Philips rep to come and check it out. So they are going to organise it for me.

It will suck if they say there is nothing wrong with it and it must be my problem. Then they are unlikely to give me a refund.

Dolby Digital
29-07-2004, 05:45 PM
>>It will suck if they say there is nothing wrong with it and it must be my problem.
The thing is you have a problem and the supplier should try and resolve it for you. I always remember when I purchased a car and having taken it for a one hour drive the same day I purchased it, I wasn't happy with the vehicle. The dealer where I purchased it from could not have cared less. I think he took the attitude that if he fobbed me off I would get used to it. I haven't bought another car off him and don't recommend him to others.

Billy T
29-07-2004, 06:53 PM
Hang in there kiki! Print out a copy of the setup instructions I posted for you and demonstrate the problem on the greyscale steps, then compare the outcome with your old monitor.

If you are lucky you will get a service rep who actually knows something about the inside of a monitor and won't just try all the consumer settings as you have done.

If you get the other sort, don't be swayed, reject the monitor and tell him/her to take it away and bring you another. Good luck!

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
04-08-2004, 05:35 PM
An update:

They took the monitor away on Tuesday morning and I got it back about 4:30pm today. They couldn't do the 'onsite warranty' as they only had the tools for fixing it at the workshop but they picked it up and brought it back which was good.

Anyway I was talking to one of them yesterday before they had looked at it, and he thought it was pretty bright. Then I was talking to a different guy today that had said he had played with the controls on it and didn't find anything wrong with it. I tried to tell him that I was using it for photoshop and the greyscale needed to be set up properly to get the colours/shades right, and I said when it is looking good, then that's way too intense on my eyes. He asked me what refresh rate I was running it at, I said 100Hz at 1280x1024. He said that would be pretty intense and to drop it to 75Hz and see how that goes, then he dropped the monitor back to me. Don't know if they really did anything inside the monitor or not. :(

So I've dropped it down to 75Hz and you can see flickering which is not very good. :| 85Hz is slightly better, but when you are sitting at this thing for a while your eyes just get sore. When it got back they had it set up at 35% brightness, 80% contrast.

I want to return this thing, get something else like an LCD. At least I won't lose my eyesight. I'll email Ascent again, see if I can return it. I'm going to be mighty annoyed if they won't let me...

metla
04-08-2004, 05:45 PM
Who was the company who serviced the unit?

I would be getting hold of the manufacters personnaly,when my dvd player(800 bucks worth) was waylaid by service monkeys i ranf the Phippips office in Auckland,2 days later i got a brand new replacement unit.

Hell,show phillips this thread.

Billy T
04-08-2004, 05:49 PM
The refresh rate claim is pure bollocks kiki. I'd like to know how that makes anything "intense".

Can you go back to the greyscale step site and do another photo to show me what it looks like at their settings? That is probably the most useful thing to do right now from my perspective. I have a fair idea of what I might see, but I need to eyeball it personally.

I don't know where we go from here as yet, but I'll give it some thought. You are probably going to have to get the service guys out again (did they really send two at once?).

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

agent_24
04-08-2004, 05:54 PM
> So I've dropped it down to 75Hz and you can see
> flickering which is not very good.

what flickering are you talking about?

mine is at standard 60Hz and perfectly fine

kiki
04-08-2004, 07:53 PM
> Who was the company who serviced the unit?

They contracted out Southland Electronics Ltd. in Invercargill to do it.

> Hell,show phillips this thread.

Maybe, might help my case a bit :)

> Can you go back to the greyscale step site and do another photo to show me what it looks like at their settings?

Ok ImageF1 seems to be down, but I've uploaded to one of my FTPs.

Monitor after repair (http://203.96.152.10/decimato/1monitor-afterRepair.gif) (233kb)
Both my monitors side by side (http://203.96.152.10/decimato/2monitors-afterRepair.gif) (314kb)

There seems to be some weird horizontal lines on the first picture, seems the camera captures that, but not on the old monitor.

> what flickering are you talking about? mine is at standard 60Hz and perfectly fine

You can see some flickering, it's noticeable and not very nice to look at.

Dolby Digital
04-08-2004, 09:06 PM
>>what flickering are you talking about? mine is at standard 60Hz and perfectly fine
I can't stand 60Hz, 70Hz is just bearable.

Kiki, found this... maybe of some help (I know yours is not a Dell).

Just a hunch - or call it a little input that might shed (away) some light.
I have a Philips-made Dell monitor (I could not see plunking down THAT much
extra money for the 19" Trinitron) and have the same problem. This is on 2
out of 2 identical monitors as I have 2 Dell systems.

The solution, besides running the screen drive down(as indicated - you don't
have that option), was to adjust the video card. For some reason, many of
the Nvidia based AGP cards found in Dells have a default gamma level that is
insane..I'd say more like "intended to cause sunburn". Luckily the video
utility driver allows for an adjustment with memory settings, which are
retained at startup if selected.

For me, I am still running brightness full down/contrast full up - but I can
view the screen.

Billy T
04-08-2004, 09:29 PM
Okay kiki, the brightness/contrast ratio is incorrect. Your eyes are not fooling you, the brightness level is too high.

The image of your old monitor is a little dull, but the correct principle is displayed, i.e. an even series of brightness increases from left to right.

The philips monitor is over-bright and over-contrasted, in that the extreme left bar is driven to black level, then there is an immediate jump to around 35-40% brightness on the second bar. Those percentages are a subjective "guess" given the image quaility, but you will get what I mean.

The net effect of these settings is that your eyes see an excessive "contrast" between light and dark areas, which in turn causes eyestrain.

Ignore the lines/bands across the screen, that is a strobing effect caused by the timing relationship between your vertical refresh rate and the shutter speed on your camera. A smaller aperture and longer exposure would eliminate that effect.

What to do? Contact Philips again and tell them the service was ineffective and left the monitor incorrectly set up. While they are deciding what to do, readjust contrast and brightness yourself as previously detailed in this thread and see if you can get it any better than last time. If you can't then probably nothing was repaired or adjusted inside and all the agents did was reset the contrast and brightness to suit their idea of how it should look.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

kiki
04-08-2004, 10:37 PM
Thanks Billy. :) I've tried but I htink it's physically impossible to get an even spread of the colours from black to white by adjusting the controls. There is always a huge difference from the black to the next colour. I think it is possible if the contrast is down to 30%, but the screen is almost black. :p

> If you can't then probably nothing was repaired or adjusted inside and all the agents did was reset the contrast and brightness to suit their idea of how it should look.

:^O That's probably exactly what happened.

I'm going to try that test on all the computers in the house to see what it looks like on them.

andrew93
04-08-2004, 11:39 PM
Hi Kiki
Sorry to see you've still got problems - I was looking up the link for your monitor and following is a copy of the sales blurb :

>Maximum Resolution (1920*1440) - Superior picture quality,
>bringing brilliant, blazing video to the desktop.
>Horizontal pitch (0.25) - Superior performance. Offers flicker-free
>viewing resolution. Superior image quality that is easy on the eyes.

Exactly how does Philips expect to deliver a "blazing" image that is easy on the eyes?

If it wasn't so many words we could have added this to the list of Oxymorons posted tonight.
:D

agent_24
04-08-2004, 11:44 PM
does the word "Brilliance" on the top left of the monitor case mean anythng to you??

:D :D :D

andrew93
04-08-2004, 11:47 PM
:^O
... and when it said "blazing" I didn't know Philips was being literal!
:^O

kiki
04-08-2004, 11:49 PM
:^O :^O very good.

Vince
05-08-2004, 01:09 AM
Some people -myself included- can see flickering in their peripheral vision at 60 hertz, it can be quite annoying. Vince

Vince
05-08-2004, 01:18 AM
For
> some reason, many of
> the Nvidia based AGP cards found in Dells have a
> default gamma level that is
> insane..I'd say more like "intended to cause
> sunburn". Luckily the video
> utility driver allows for an adjustment with memory
> settings, which are
> retained at startup if selected.
>
I have the same problem with my Dell monitor. Could you tell me how to adjust the memory settings? Vince

zqwerty
05-08-2004, 01:23 AM
Why not try this:

http://www.softpedia.com/public/cat/11/2/5/11-2-5-4.shtml

zqwerty
05-08-2004, 01:24 AM
More here:

http://freepctech.com/rode/004.shtml

kiki
05-08-2004, 04:09 PM
Well Ascent have sent me an RA# for a credit. Now I'm faced with trying to find a cheap way to send it back up to Auckland. :|

Looks like it's going to be very expensive :O

kiki
05-08-2004, 05:30 PM
25kg monitor from Invercargill -> Auckland =

$121 CourierPost Express :O
$77 CourierPost Economy
NZ Post // Only insures up to $250 (The monitor is $635)
$46 McDowall Freight Ltd and insures up to $1500

Looks like I'll go for the last one. Sending by courier would be a real money waster!

Billy, I was looking at that Nokia test program, and the greyscale appears ok~ on that, but not on the one that you posted earlier in the thread. How come?

Laura
05-08-2004, 06:41 PM
Fastway Couriers (see my post July 28) did a good job for me.
Fastway Southland is Gaab Holdings, 15 Eye St, Invercargill.
Phone, fax & email details on the website.
"Feel free to contact us to arrange a no obligation, free freight analysis."
Worth a try?

kiki
05-08-2004, 06:49 PM
> Worth a try?

Yep, I'll try them tomorrow. Thanks! :)

Murray P
05-08-2004, 07:10 PM
Are Philips going to credit you for the courier kiki? They should it's not your responsibilty but theirs.

Cheers Murray P

kiki
06-08-2004, 05:11 PM
> Are Philips going to credit you for the courier kiki? They should it's not your responsibilty but theirs.

I don't think they will. How would I con them into getting them to pay for it?

All the couriers were $70-$80 range. I looked at the freight options but they looked pretty dodgy and one place was like wet floor, big truck in there, with all sorts of crates going in it. Didn't look a too safe place for a monitor. Besides the damn box won't even fit in either of our cars. Its too big!

I've had to settle for a CourierPost pickup on monday for about $77 :(

Man I'm hating life :^O

Murray P
06-08-2004, 06:31 PM
> > Are Philips going to credit you for the courier
> kiki? They should it's not your responsibilty but
> theirs.
>
> I don't think they will. How would I con them into
> getting them to pay for it?

You shouldn't need to con them kiki, in fact the con is on their side IMO. If there was no problem you wouldn't be shipping it, how is that your fault or responsibility? It is not, it is theirs, they were quite happy to take you money for the purchase, now there is a problem they want you to pay more under warranty. Cripes whatever way you look at it (no pun intended :D ) it's not right. Try and get them to ship it if they won't start raising the threat stakes, eg, Consumer Guarantee Act, Fair Trading.

BTW, they will recover all costs from Philips, can you?

Cheers Murray P

Dolby Digital
06-08-2004, 08:17 PM
>>Man I'm hating life :)
The joys of buying something new. Invercargill has a Harvey Norman store doesn't it. Are you going to rush down (ok shuffle down) to HN and suss out the LCD monitors.

kiki
06-08-2004, 09:43 PM
Thanks Murray, I'll try giving them a ring tomorrow if they're open. Normally I'm good at arguing a case, but this one I don't see any way I can win. I bought the monitor, I didn't like it, I'm returning it, and according to their "professional" opinion on it from the warranty service there is nothing wrong with it. However just for the sake of it I might give it a go. Not too optimistic though.

> The joys of buying something new. Invercargill has a Harvey Norman store doesn't it. Are you going to rush down (ok shuffle down) to HN and suss out the LCD monitors.

:) I had a look at them a week ago. I rate them all EC10. Probably looking at getting a Syncmaster 172X or dare I say it a Phillips 12ms 19" model.

zqwerty
06-08-2004, 09:45 PM
Or pull out the big guns and contact, or threaten to contact:

http://www.tvnz.co.nz/view/tvone_minisite_index_skin/tvone_fair_go_group