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Chilling_Silence
15-06-2004, 11:43 AM
Just found this:
http://www.linuxworld.com/story/45237.htm

Thought it may be of interest.

Then, I thought I'd ask myself:
If you're not using Linux, what is stopping you?
If you are using Linux as your only OS, what would make you use Windows?
Would you consider BSD / Solaris?


Chill.

stu120404
15-06-2004, 03:31 PM
> If you're not using Linux, what is stopping you?

ummm lets see..... It is not easy to set-up, it is not easy to use, and it has a crap GUI & it is not newbe friendly

That is my 5 cents

mikebartnz
15-06-2004, 03:49 PM
>It is not easy to set-up
I'm sorry but I'm sick of this one. Nor is Windows if you don't know what you are doing.I actually find XP harder to set up in ways than 95 because the wizards get in the way of what you really want to do and with both OS's there is often more than one way to something which makes it harder to remember.

whiskeytangofoxtrot
15-06-2004, 03:54 PM
I'm not a linux zealot by any means, but you're just plain misinformed.

> ummm lets see..... It is not easy to set-up,

Set-up varies greatly between distributions. Sure SlackWare and Debian can be a pain in the ass to install, but things like Knoppix and Mandrake are straightforward. You barely have to touch the machine and it's done, without having to traipse around the net for drivers etc.

> not easy to use,

No different to Windows once it's running.

> and it has a crap GUI

You even looked at the net lately? Kde 3.x far outstrips Windows in presentation, and is just as functional if not more so. Try looking at some web-sites and get informed before spouting off.

mark c
15-06-2004, 04:08 PM
A newbie responds........

I've been a newbie for 2.5 years so am qualified on this one.

(If you think that's too long it's because just when I think I'm getting somewhere something comes up that throws me right back. Right now it's device drivers.)

Windows is enough of a complication to deal with without plungung into Linux which has a reputation as the chosen OS of geeks.

OK so Knoppix boots off a CD but still haven't been game enough to try it.

That's it in a nutshell, Linux is too difficult and at least there are lots of window users around you can ask.

M2cW Mark c :)

Chilling_Silence
15-06-2004, 04:08 PM
Woah, okay...

Just to clarify, I dont want this to become a debate on why you should use what and the pro's / con's.

I have to agree, that post by WTF is just what I would have said though :-)

So reason #1:
We are mis-informed about its capabilities

*We being those who havent 'seen the light' ;-)


Chill.

stu120404
15-06-2004, 04:09 PM
> You even looked at the net lately? Kde 3.x far
> outstrips Windows in presentation, and is just as
> functional if not more so.

HAHA, very funny, even so it is still crap.

nzStan
15-06-2004, 04:12 PM
Stu, I know how Linux could look like that to you. Heck, a couple of years ago I probably had the same opinion.

But Linux keeps improving itself for the desktop and although it hasn't reached catalyst yet but it will be sooner than you think.

Pick up some Linux distro like Mandrake (or Xandros and Ark which I am trying to get a copy of) and give them a try. Even if you think its still not there for you to convert, you gotta admit they've come a long way.

I have one of my staff (non IT literate) working on a PC with Mandrake 9.1 and he working without any problem since we gave him the PC with Open Office and Envolution installed.

Chilling_Silence
15-06-2004, 04:13 PM
This is what Im talking about....
Okay, support:
47% of large Corporations wouldnt investiagate Linux due to "Lack of Support" (Jen can keep me correct on these figures provided by Novell)

And because its too "geeky"?

stu120404
15-06-2004, 04:14 PM
> > not easy to use,
>
> No different to Windows once it's running.

Lets see you still have to mount a cd rom drive etc....

stu120404
15-06-2004, 04:18 PM
> Pick up some Linux distro like Mandrake (or Xandros
> and Ark which I am trying to get a copy of) and give
> them a try.

I would love to, but because they need to come a long way still in ways of install them, I will not be touching Linux for a very long time yetÖ

nzStan
15-06-2004, 04:19 PM
> This is what Im talking about....
> Okay, support:
> 47% of large Corporations wouldnt investiagate Linux
> due to "Lack of Support" (Jen can keep me correct on
> these figures provided by Novell)
>
> And because its too "geeky"?


Not so in my case. I'm pro Linux but even I can see the formidable task ahead converting my troop of accountants with their Excel macros. Plus we have heaps of windows based applications that need to be converted. And there is no guarantee Wine will be able to accomodate all these applications.

As far as Linux support is concerned, nope - quite easy to find them in Auckland at the moment.

Chilling_Silence
15-06-2004, 04:22 PM
Hey Stu,

If you really have that much of a bad impression of it, I think I owe you a Xandros CD ;-)

Personally I think my desktop looks quite slick:
http://sal.neoburn.net/imagef1/files/ugly.png

nzStan:
Can I ask who you get to support you for Linux please?

nzStan
15-06-2004, 04:23 PM
> > Pick up some Linux distro like Mandrake (or
> Xandros
> > and Ark which I am trying to get a copy of) and
> give
> > them a try.
>
> I would love to, but because they need to come a long
> way still in ways of install them, I will not be
> touching Linux for a very long time yetÖ


Heh, that's what you think. I went for one of Jonathan Horsman Linux installation class in Auckland and was pleasantly surprised how simple it was to install Mandrake 9.1 on a standard Cyclone Intel PC. In fact because I came from Windows background it was so much more easier than the mums and dads who were in the class with me. And yeah - I didn't have to mount CD. The hardware detect did it all automatically for me, very similar to Windows Plug and Play technology.

stu120404
15-06-2004, 04:25 PM
For example in Linux to install a program you have to login as root then you have to enter a few commands to get it to install

In windows

All you have to do is click on the exe & fellow the instructions

nzStan
15-06-2004, 04:30 PM
Contact Ian Soffe at Open System Specialists Ltd
09-630 4800 or http://www.oss.co.nz

I got them to install several Suse servers to run Oracle in Auckland and a Mandrake Samba server in Hutt Valley for my branch office.

nzStan
15-06-2004, 04:36 PM
> For example in Linux to install a program you have to
> login as root then you have to enter a few commands
> to get it to install
>
> In windows
>
> All you have to do is click on the exe & fellow the
> instructions


Stu, you gotta understand that is the fundamental difference between Windows and Linux.

In Windows, it is easy to install a program because by nature we automatically assign the user as an Administrator. And it is because of this reason virus and worms so easily gain control of the system once it has been breached.

In Linux, the user by default do not have root aka administrator rights. And Linux actively discourage you from giving that rights to the user. If you want to emulate the ability to install like Windows without changing to root, then you give the login user the same rights as root. But that would destroy the whole concept of how Linux handle security.

In the same way, if you want Windows to emulate Linux security, change your user login to a standard user account instead of Supervisor and you will face the same installation problem. FYI that is what most corporate do, to prevent their users from installing unauthorised programs on company PC.

Growly
15-06-2004, 04:49 PM
I actually am determined to use Linux, Solaris, Unix or someother CLI based OS, memorise it and become amazingly good at it.... just to feel satisfied.

I used Windows mainly (then the motherboard killed itself), and the only reason I use it now is to play games.

But i must admit, linux aggrevates me in many ways. Such as:

1) The number of things that break and I can never ever find the solution to.
2) How slow it is
3) The ease of installing hardware and configuring it. (I had to download a new kernel last time to get sound, and then the kernel install screwed up permanently and I had to get fedora.)
4)The FONTS
5) I'm used to being all technical and shortcut-like with windows, but Alt-F2 just doesnt work for me.
6) Once again, how incredibly hard it is to find the right documentation. Because every linux distro is different, this search is then made harder by the many different ways of doing things.
7) How the hell do I install a network card? I can configure it, but not install it! How do I tell that the card is currently in the computer? What is the equivalent of device manager?
8) Overnet KEEPS BREAKING.
9) Things don't often work in the background in windows, but in linux they do it all the time.
10) It's funny that everyone always told me that linux is alot more stable than windows. I agree, i've studied the windows architecture and its flaws, but linux is not making a good name for itself. Sure nothing crashes, but nothing works for me in the first place! Besides, experts find it hard to fix my problems!

That's all i can remember...

nzStan
15-06-2004, 04:55 PM
My gawd Growly. Remind me never to be in the same landing craft with you if we ever play Battlefield together. :P

Growly
15-06-2004, 04:56 PM
Come to think of it, my experience with linux is never good. From the looks of it, chill's screen is as nice as windows, (EXPECT THE FONTS). My friends have linux working fine, just dandy...

Actually come to think of it, it may be my hardware... duron's are crap.

But you know what, I'll continue to use linux (or unix) purely because i want to know it inside out, even if I only use it for servers :D

PS. It still runs really slowly. Also, how do i turn the hole animation when you click on things, that one where a bo comes from the centre and goes to the outside?

OH AND I DISLIKE THE BLACK MOUSE. IT'S TOO SMALL. WHERE DO I CHANGE THAT?

Growly
15-06-2004, 04:58 PM
> My gawd Growly. Remind me never to be in the same
> landing craft with you if we ever play Battlefield
> together. :P


Hehehehe - I would have a) killed myself b) taken a tan or c) blown the landing craft up from a dirty battleship (when on your team) by then....

and i was gonna say that I meant the network thing in debian, just the CLI. I didn't load the GUi, to much work. (Actually it's because i didnt have enough ram)

Chilling_Silence
15-06-2004, 05:06 PM
Growly>
Email me man and I'll hook you up with Xandros OCE. Its faster than Fedora / Mandrake in my experience, and a lot more windows-like in its look/feel so it'll help you get used to the idea of it.

Either that or there's Ark Linux which I'd prefer to send you, but email me and we can sort something out alright :-)

Jen C
15-06-2004, 05:29 PM
Well said nzStan regarding the Windows Admin account vs the Linux root account and security. :)

>If you are using Linux as your only OS, what would make you use Windows?

At home I hardly even touch Windows now, and that is only to play some of my games. Given a choice, I would purchase a native Linux port of the same game (unfortunately they are not widely available). A year ago (exactly), I decided to give Linux a real go rather than my previous little dabbles where I loaded it and then booted into it maybe once a week just to poke around. I went out and bought Red Hat Linux 8 for Dummies book and installed RH8 determined to give it a real go. I soon moved onto RH 9, then Fedora etc. I haven't looked back, and with encouragement from fellow Linux users (especially Chill), I went on and learnt how to use it and developed my now strong interest in it :)

I can use my digicam, TV-tuner card, scanner, play music, burn CD's, do my work stuff paperwork with ease - makes no difference to me it is all under Linux. It is awesome what I can do with it :D

I think Linux is making real inroads into the desktop market, and the current quibbles are being ironed out so that it is or soon be newbie friendly.

>> You even looked at the net lately? Kde 3.x far
>> outstrips Windows in presentation, and is just as
>> functional if not more so.

>HAHA, very funny, even so it is still crap.

Stu>
You really need to look at some of the distro's rolling out now - very presentable!
Examples of my KDE under Fedora Core 2
Burning a CD (http://sal.neoburn.net/imagef1/files/FC2_a.jpg)
KMenu (http://sal.neoburn.net/imagef1/files/FC2_b.jpg)
KDE Control Centre (http://sal.neoburn.net/imagef1/files/FC2_c.jpg)

:)

J ZEP
15-06-2004, 05:45 PM
>If you're not using Linux, what is stopping you?

Well personally for me, I would love to try it! I have talked with all you converts from F1 and I'm itching to try it! Whats stopping me?, well i guess nothing;-), however i am a little hesitant to try it on my main puter as my partner uses it for gaming etc... and have heard it can be troublesome it that area? My plan is - hopefully - that i would get another cheap system and set it up and use/learn solely Linux on that ;-). I "could" dual boot, but would rather hold off and just dedicate a computer to it solely, in preparation for all the messes I will get myself into ;-). After all i have to have a computer which can access F1 to help me get out of all the messes i get into using Linux;-). I guess its fear of the unknown and sticking to what we are familiar with, makes us feel a little safer maybe?? :-)
Also i figure i have still got soooo sooo much more to learn on windows yet!!

** Poor young Chill will be ducking for cover when i get Linux ;-) - hes already my online tech for windows,lol ;-) :-).

As a side note - I have yet to see a Linux install :O , so i guess that says it all:-( I was told that DSE had Linux machines in there shops? however not in my area they don't? Anybody know of any shops that do have demo puters with Linux installs? I would love to have a look at one :-), oh well i will have to make do with Chills screenshots for now ;-)

Jen C
15-06-2004, 06:10 PM
>As a side note - I have yet to see a Linux install

An easy way of seeing a Linux installation is to use a Linux Live-CD which loads off the CD only and doesn't touch the hard drive at all. You merely ensure your machine can boot off CD's, pop it in and start up the machine. When you are finished, the CD is removed and Windows is back. You do however have to be aware that the speed of the Linux is dependant upon your RAM and CD-drive speed with these live CD's. Knoppix is one of the most well known live-CD's, and myself or someone else can send you a disc if you like to have a look. :)

>I guess its fear of the unknown and sticking to what we are familiar with, makes us feel a little safer maybe??

I think that is one of the big reasons in getting people to try something different, because Linux is not Windows and so it does appear and act very foreign to some (this is also very distro dependant as some do emulate Windows appearance very well).

No one has to try Linux, it is just another Operating System that is available if you are looking for something different, don't want to have to pay for a new Operating System or wish to take on a new challenge and learn about it.

DSE (and other PC shops) do sell pre-installed Linux desktop computers which get around the worry of possible hardware not working first pop and learning how to install an operating system. Also by getting a commercial Linux distro such as SuSE or Xandros, the user gets email support to solve any issues they might have.

But, go for it J ZEP, we need more Linux girls out there! :p
I am definitely in the minority at the local Linux User Group meetings :D

Growly
15-06-2004, 06:18 PM
Alright chill!!!

Dangnammit... everything works for you guys!!!

Hmm... I will certainly email you chill!

Laura
15-06-2004, 06:33 PM
I have only 2 reasons for not trying Linux YET.

(Yes, you enthusiasts have aroused my curiosity & enthusiasm since I joined PF1 - so you've done a good job there, Chill et al)

Reason 1 is that I'm a totally self-taught newb ( never touched a computer until last year) with no support system worth speaking of apart from Google & you guys.
Yes, I know you're great, but I'm still struggling with Windows. Shouldn't I get better at that first?
(And before you say No because Linux will be easier, note Reason 2....)

Reason 2 is that my system isn't up to trying the ideal situation - having both on my computer to experiment.
I'm running 98SEon 10Gigs/600MHz/128RAM. Yes, I'll add more RAM, but my system is currently two thirds full.

When I buy my NEXT computer, it'll be a different story. I'll be back for Linux advice from you experts then.
Keep up the good persuasive work..

Shaun Minfie
15-06-2004, 06:54 PM
Well its funny how some topics just pop up at the right time. Over the last couple of months I have been trying as many distributions as a can lay my hands on without coughing up any money. The FTP (ftp://ftp2.jetstreamgames.co.nz) site at Jetstreamgames is a great resource as if you have dsl of any flavor you can connect at full speed and download until your hearts content.

I have made the decision that aside from games (V8 supercars wont run in linux damnit) I am going to make a concerted effort to use linux only.

Is it easy? Hmmmm not really but then neither is windows. If it was then PF1 wouldnt be here. Have a search through the forum and see how many linux problems remain unresolved vs how many windows ones.

Aside from gaming what do I use my PC for?

1. Surfing. No reason not to do this in linux but you do have to install java and flash in most dists (Not Xandros tho)

2. Email. Go on send me a virus :D I dare ya.

3. Music. XMMS, Rythm Box etc. Do a great job.

4. Anything else I have forgotten and I'm sure that all of it can be done on linux if I try hard enough :)

Oh by the way Jen C, watch out. I have some questions coming your way. I ended up with Fedora FC2 :)

If anyone is interested in trying a dist and you cant get it off the net. EG dial up. Gimme a yell and I will gladly burn a copy for you to try as I'm sure CS and Jen C will be.

Hmmm This could the start of a blog.

Cheers
Shaun

miknz
15-06-2004, 07:41 PM
Atten Laura:::

I to am a self taught, and installed redhat linux 9 on a 330mhz p2 with 128 meg of ram (have a hp6320).
I was a little apprehensive for a start but got a "dummies guide" from the library to help me through the setup(which was as simple as hell).
The book said I needed a 600mhz processer to run red hatbut it seems to run well and I havent had any probs in the last 6 months or so. I even managed to partition my hdd into 1x 16.5 gig for windows 98se and 1 swap file thingee of about 500meg and the rest of my hdd for linux(about 12gig i think).
I think the hardest thing was working out how to get the partition program to do the right thing, this became a lot more simple when I read the chapter on "partitioning your hdd"(typical male, try first then read instructions)

So I guess what I am trying to say is that you should just give it a go, there is always the pf1 guys to fall back on if you get stuck and you wont regret doing it.

Cheers
Mik

Murray P
15-06-2004, 08:22 PM
As has been said. if your apprehensive give a live distro a try (boot & run from CD). That's what I did with Mepis and Knoppix. I then installed Mepis to the HDD and it could not have been simpler. Ive got about another 3 distro's I want to try before making a final decission, no make that 4 I'll give Fedora a run as well.

I find it a reasonably steep learning curve do do the anything other than the basics. I haven't set up my camera yet for eg, can't find ghoto or Kamera (CLI here I come, erk! )but all the usb is detected right off and anything else you care to mention.

Network, video, display, audio, players, CD and burning is all very simple. The rest is no harder than windows if you don't know what your doing to start with. BTW, Growly, I'm sure you have a Red Hat based distro not Debian, could be some of your problem :) another BTW, if your using a nForce board Growly your network card may not set up so easily, I poped in a Realtek and was away with a few clicks.

Give a live CD a try, Mepis, Knoppix, Mandrake Live, etc. Cripes its easier than when I started out in win 95. Live a little, have fun ;)

And to answer your question Chill, nothing will stop me from using Linux.

Cheers Murray P

J ZEP
15-06-2004, 08:30 PM
> An easy way of seeing a Linux installation is to use a Linux Live-CD which loads off the CD only and doesn't touch the hard drive at all. You merely ensure your machine can boot off CD's, pop it in and start up the machine. When you are finished, the CD is removed and Windows is back.

Ahhh that sounds like me :-) - Now i never knew that was possible Jen, thats a great bit of imfo i have learned tonight, Thanks:-). As i said, i have been itching to give it a whirl, I must admit i like the sound (and look) of what I've seen of Ark (compliments of Chill). Do they have a live Ark by any chance?

>>> But, go for it J ZEP, we need more Linux girls out there!
:D

stu120404
15-06-2004, 08:41 PM
> 2. Email. Go on send me a virus :D I dare ya.

Just you wait, there will be virus for Linux soon....

mikebartnz
15-06-2004, 08:57 PM
There are some already but they will never be as serious a problem as with Windows. Incidently a large part of the web is run using OSS including Linux so it would actually be an attractive target but Windows boxes are so much easier.

mikebartnz
15-06-2004, 09:29 PM
Kobo Deluxe is a Linux game some may want to try (http://dbs.homeport.org/archives/000220.html)

agent
15-06-2004, 09:39 PM
> Just you wait, there will be virus for Linux soon...

Is that a threat, Stu?

And to think, I thought you were a respectable citizen. Gosh, I'm shocked.

:)

Will Hunt
15-06-2004, 10:38 PM
I want to install Liniux, i have a distro of Red Hat 9, what else should i get started ? my modem will not work with linux so if theres anything i need to d/l, i'll do it before i start

Also i have 1 120gb HD, at the moment it is devided into 4 partitions, am I able to just nominate on of the partitions for Linux to install into ? How?

Cheers

Murray P
15-06-2004, 11:23 PM
I'd try for something a bit newer than RH9 Will. Ark, Fedora, Mepis, Mandrake, Xandros, Knoppix. Have a toodle around DistroWatch (http://www.distrowatch.com/) and check out a few on the page hits list on the right bar check out the page and read any linked reviews.Probably best to stay away from Gentoo and Debian (but Debian based is fine like Mepis, they rock :). Look for words like easy to install, great package manager and desktop

Cheers Murray P

Murray P
15-06-2004, 11:34 PM
> Kobo Deluxe is a Linux game some may want to try

Thanks mikebnz. Do you know the difference between Kobo Deluxe 0.4 pre9-4 and xkobo 1.11-12 ? Maybe I should just grab both

Cheers Murray P

mikebartnz
16-06-2004, 12:00 AM
Not much of a games man myself so don't know. Just happened to catch that lot on a site I regularly visit.

whiskeytangofoxtrot
16-06-2004, 12:02 AM
Incidentally the points that most people are raising about "Linux being too hard to install, too hard to install programs on etc" are pretty lame really.

The large majority of PC users have never installed Windows, or Apps on their machines. They all go to PC Company, Noel Leeming, Dell, The Big Red Barn or wherever else is selling a PC.

The machine is taken home, pulled out of the polysterene blocks, installation CD's manuals and drivers are all lost and at least one cable misplaced.

Then they match the pretty coloured plugs up to the pretty coloured holes, except for the 56k modem one which isn't colour coded and inevitably gets jammed in the ethernet socket taking down all the phones in the house.

Once it's turned on, the ISP helpdesk sets up their Intarwebnet, and "Inbox Outlook Express" and thats it.

Sure they can get themselve a Hotmail account, a few download Bonzi Buddy server edition, HotBar, Incredimail and a few thousand spyware apps. They've never installed an Office Suite for one user or multiple, never installed an OS, partitioned a drive, tried to find drivers or anything like that.

If it breaks, they don't fix it themselves, it gets taken somewhere, or the veritable "friend that knows all about computers" comes round, breaks it more, and then it's taken somewhere.

I could easily replace my parents, grandparents, and the majority of my university going friends machines with pre-installed Linux boxes and they wouldn't know any different. Sure, they wouldn't be able to fix it if it broke, but most can't do that now anyway - and we all know which is more susceptible to breaking (thats the OS from Redmond Stu).

pulling hair out
16-06-2004, 12:13 AM
I'm a newbie and my comments won't go down at all well with the fanatical linux users and you probably won't be so helpful next time I post a problem, but so be it.

I am happy with Windows. The problems I have are entirely of my own making and ignorance.

If Linux is so flaming good you wouldn't have to be going on and on re: trying to get every one else to use it.

NO system is perfect. (No man-made thing ever is!)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and preferences.
The only time I have had any experience of Linux or its predecessors is with one of my clients who had just got her first computer and the guy who sold it to her had set it up in one of Linux's OS. She had a nightmare with it. Every time I was at her place she was going nuts over the next thing that wouldn't work and the guy who was supposed to be helping her was nigh on useless.

I'm glad all you Linux users are deliriously happy with your systems, but go easy on those who choose Windows. They too are enjoying the system that "they" have freely chosen to use.

If I was a Company who could only get clients who were unhappy with the opposing company's product, rather than getting clients who chose me because my product was so dammed good, that would really be depressing.
Well that's all I had to say. Pls don't be offended.
Marg.

mikebartnz
16-06-2004, 12:15 AM
Well said WTF.
One thing that drives me mad when trying to help people on the phone is knowing that in a few clicks I could have done what is needed and yet it takes for ever to talk them through it. That is with Windows ( and Macs to a lesser degree) but I would not expect it to be vastly different in Linux

mikebartnz
16-06-2004, 12:21 AM
>and you probably won't be so helpful next time I post a problem,
That is also very helpful. What do you have problems with Windows!! :)

pulling hair out
16-06-2004, 12:30 AM
> >and you probably won't be so helpful next time I
> post a problem,
> That is also very helpful. What do you have problems
> with Windows!! :)

MikeBartnz
I have problems with Windows. :8}

Linux users have problems with Linux.:0

Remove your blinkers. :D

Your Friend Marg. heheheheh

Murray P
16-06-2004, 12:43 AM
No offence taken where non is intended Marg.

Without counting, I think a lot of us posting are not so much Linux fanatics but in fact relatively new to Linux. it's really only recently that Linux has got to the point where knuckle heads like me can get it running and feel reasonably of what we are doing. So, we find it new and exiting and pat ourselves on the back for getting the thing to a boot screen let alone installing it and running app's. It really does feel great to be given the freedom to try a slightly different way of doing things and a very different way of procuring software.

Linux has got comfortable enough now so that to get seriously into the sticky stuff and be miserable all over again is easy, read WTF's post, it doesn't just apply to windows users ;) However, you are far less likely, in my opinion, to get in to serious trouble in Linux and especially find yourself mired by some of the crud getting around the net at the mo, if you stick to a few basic rules. To qualify that, I mean "Linux" as one of the easy to use, graphical distributions of which there are only a handful or two well known ones and not some build your own from scratch or distro or even most of the mature distro's out there.

My own personal reasons for going/attempting the Linux way is more to do with choice and a dislike of the way some corporates operate, not restricted to MS BTW. I still use those products but hope to break my dependance on them, it just so happens Linux gives me that opportunity.

Cheers Murray P

segfault
16-06-2004, 12:45 AM
Just out of interest, does this look crap to you?

My Laptop (http://www.jabber.org.nz/laptop.png)

Murray P
16-06-2004, 12:46 AM
Sorry for the crappy structure and bad grammar :8}

Cheers Murray P

metla
16-06-2004, 12:51 AM
> Just out of interest, does this look crap to you?
>
> My
> Laptop (http://www.jabber.org.nz/laptop.png)



Yes, infact that is heinously ugly, I am amazed you would even be able to look upon it for more then a few seconds, let alone admire it for its beauty.


...............................Ha,well you did ask.

metla
16-06-2004, 12:54 AM
...................my eyes.........my eyes.......they are bleeding.....


oh lord no....my eyes,my eyes....

The pain...it burns,it burns....

segfault
16-06-2004, 12:56 AM
> If you are using Linux as your only OS, what would
> make you use Windows?

Can't really think of anything. It would have to be something pretty major. I think I'd have to be forced to use windows actually.

> Would you consider BSD / Solaris?

I use BSD now and then (and am going to start using it regularly very soon). I probably wouldn't consider using Solaris as it pretty much means you're tied to Sun hardware (unless you want to inflict pain on yourself by running Solaris on x86). Maybe a case where I might consider Solaris is as a database server where I need huge throughput.

DUNK
16-06-2004, 01:40 AM
Judging from the threads on the subject,
that I've read on this forum
I'd need infinite time & endless patience!
Sorry, I have neither!
98SE will have to do for now!
Despite all it's faults!
Regards.

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 02:40 AM
I think I agree with what Murray P said.
Linux isnt as well-known on the Desktop as Windows is, but the fact that for many it is a perfectly viable alternative for those who want to move away from their current desktop OS is still unknown to the vast majority of computer users out there!

I must be honest that about a week ago I asked every customer who came through the door of the CyberCafe what they thought of Linux.

Of all the people we had come in (It was a slow day, but still had a good 50 or so people) only one knew what Linux was, and his comment was something like:
I run smoothwall as a firewall, that's Linux right?

We got one or two other good comments:
I tried Linux once, but then windows gave me a Blue Screen error and restarted it so I didnt load it up again
Linux, yeah, I like it, my aunty makes it every time we go around to her place

Otherwise, I got about 45 blank stares, and one big grin on my employers face :-)


Some linux games to google for:
Legends
Battle for Wesnoth
Adonthell
Supertux
tuxmath & tuxtype
Tuxracer

What about in Business, what are peoples perspective on using Linux in a corporate environment outside of the server-room?


Chill.

Terry Porritt
16-06-2004, 08:03 AM
Well, for what it's worth, my 5c.
Ive given Xandros my best shot, but have put it to one side for now.

The basic reasons as mentioned already by (sorry I forget who :) ), drivers!

It wont support my scanner, and it doesnt support my soundcard fully, so that sound quality is miserable.

When device manufacturers start including Linux drivers with their products as a matter of course then maybe I'll go back to it.

I found it a pain trying to locate and install all the extra libs etc, when trying to install just a simple small program. I mean MS Windows is MS Windows more or less, but Linux? It is a multiplicity of messy distributions which is confusing to say the least for anyone starting out.

mikebartnz
16-06-2004, 09:11 AM
No blinkers here!

pulling hair out
16-06-2004, 09:39 AM
To Murray P and Chill.
Your well-considered and stable opinions were well worth reading and I really am sorry if I have offended the majority on this thread.

But WTF X-( really got my gander up with his "pretty coloured plugs" etc in his 12.02am post. And the rest of the post is just for him.........

When I bought my first computer, I got precious little help from vendor as they went out of business soon after.

The Toshiba notebook I have now, was bought from a firm who puts you on to another business when you query them or their person who deals with it is out. I have rung Toshiba in NZ once and the technicians were marvellous.

AND there are NO pretty coloured plugs on my computer. It's all black and grey, and it runs Windows XP Pro and its my favourite toy.

regards, Marg.

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 09:41 AM
Terry>
Did you install the Alsa library files from Xandros-Networks, as well as the SANE Scanner Backend?

Xandros has some of the best Hardware support Ive seen, especially with the cursed Win/LinModems!

nzStan
16-06-2004, 09:46 AM
> But WTF X-( really got my gander up with his
> "pretty coloured plugs" etc in his 12.02am post. And
> the rest of the post is just for him.........

Marg, don't take it to heart. The best policy is to ignore and forget and listen/read those that are helpful to you.

Terry Porritt
16-06-2004, 10:19 AM
Chill, I pretty well installed everything going in Xandros, but there is just NO Linux support for my Canoscan FB310, ClickSmart 420 webcam or "Ma-La-Zi 5.1 sound card. The sound card chipset is more or less recognised and I do get sound, but the quality is very poor, sounds like tinkling glass in the background, and there is no surround sound recognition.

I just bought a Canon MP700 combined printer/scanner/copier, there are no Linux drivers.
Toyota if Im going to have to dither around trying to find hardware that has Linux support, and if I did it probably wouldnt be what I want anyway. So there :)

Terry Porritt
16-06-2004, 10:29 AM
Just a side-track. A few years ago in DOS I could phone-fax-web browse-ftp, run a word processor, run graphics programs/viewers/editors/players, run PCB programs and plot out printed circuit boards on my HP serial port plotter, control devices on the parallel port, in fact heaps and heaps of things from MS-DOS.

Now I know the Linux gurus like Graham can do all that without blinking an eye, because they have 'grown up' with Linux/Unix, and so would all those whose tertiary education has been with Unix.

In Xandros, I'm limited in what I can and want to do. In Windows I can do most all things I want. Thats the big difference.

SKT174
16-06-2004, 10:31 AM
The problem is not many device you bought came with Linux drivers, like motherboard drivers, display, sound, web cam ...etc. :(

I know Linux will work with most of the device without drivers, but sometime you need to use their own drivers to use their advance features for that particular device.

If manufacturers provides both Windows and Linux drivers then I think it will make Linux more appeal :)

I know some already do, but the majority don't :(

As for user friendly and ease of use, I think Windows is a little bit better in that area still. (My opinion only, correct me if I'm wrong) .

Let say you have a PC with no OS and a person that have no computer experience, do you think that persoon can have the PC up and running with Windows or Linux if you gave him to try both?

nzStan
16-06-2004, 10:58 AM
It will be just as difficult for a non-IT literate person to install Windows or Linux if they have no previous experience.

However, once installed, the same person if exposed to either O/S for the first time will have the same frustration. I know - I deal with these type of people all the time. After a couple of sessions on basic Windows (or Linux) training they will continue to use it and over time will gain confidence (well some of them anyway).

As an example - I have a non-IT literate staff working on a Linux Mandrake PC. It wasn't that hard at all introducing him to it, however he didn't have to install it.

whiskeytangofoxtrot
16-06-2004, 11:27 AM
> But WTF X-( really got my gander up with his
> "pretty coloured plugs" etc in his 12.02am post. And
> the rest of the post is just for him.........

*yawn* did you think I really directed my post just at you?

Damn near all major desktop computers and most lap-tops have adopted the colour coded plug system. Have a look at the back of any computer built in the last 5 - 6 years or more.

metla
16-06-2004, 11:36 AM
> As an example - I have a non-IT literate staff
> working on a Linux Mandrake PC. It wasn't that hard
> at all introducing him to it, however he didn't have
> to install it.

I thought you considered yourself a clever man?

The user you refer to isn't using linux as such,he is using the apps running on linux,get him to do a system task with linux and no help from his suport then come back and blow your horn.

Hell,get him to install some nvidia display drivers,Even with detailed instructions he will be cursing linux.

What a joke.

nzStan
16-06-2004, 11:44 AM
> > As an example - I have a non-IT literate staff
> > working on a Linux Mandrake PC. It wasn't that
> hard
> > at all introducing him to it, however he didn't
> have
> > to install it.
>
> I thought you considered yourself a clever man?
>
> The user you refer to isn't using linux as such,he is
> using the apps running on linux,get him to do a
> system task with linux and no help from his suport
> then come back and blow your horn.
>
> Hell,get him to install some nvidia display
> drivers,Even with detailed instructions he will be
> cursing linux.
>
> What a joke.
>
>

Metla, I apologise to you if for any reason I had offended you with my post. No I don't consider myself a very clever man. Wiser as I grow older and always learning every day.

My point is that any person who do not have Windows or Linux experience would have problems installing anything on a PC be it Windows or Linux. If it was that simple on Windows I wouldn't be helping fellow church members fixing or installing peripherals on their computers on most Saturdays.

But if it was done for them, like a PC out of a box with Windows and Office installed it wouldn't cause a problem for standard user. Take for example the approach by Walmart offering a fully packaged Lindows PC.

But like I said, sorry if I had offended you and not it wasn't a joke.

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 11:44 AM
SKT174>
Linux wins Hands-Down with the right Disto.
Give them LFS, Gentoo, Arch or anything along those lines and even with the brilliant documentation, you need to know generally what you're doing. In the case of these three, Windows would win without a doubt
Give the user any Windows OS, Or Ark Linux, and I gaurantee 100% that after the user has:
Selected their region/timezone
Selected System Install (It tells you what each of the three install types does)
Allow them to play Tetrix for about 20 minutes and wham, bam, thankyou mam you have Linux :-)


Personally, I think one of the biggest problems is too much choice for n00b's......

metla
16-06-2004, 11:48 AM
Bah ,How do you think im offended, im just noisy,and i for one consider you clever, lmao,I just thought it was a bad example,The fact that someone using an app or 2 on linux with a suport crew behind him is managing doesn't make it superior to windows.and ignores the downsides of linux(but every pro linux post in this thread is more one sided then a Green party get together)

nzStan
16-06-2004, 11:56 AM
Actually I've been quoted in various media before that I do not consider Linux as suitable for corporate desktop yet because there are just too many legacy windows applications to be ported over.

But I remember in one article I said that IT Managers could gain some savings by targeting fringe users ie someone who doesn't need all the whizbang, maybe just Word Processing and Spreadsheet and email. That Linux user I mentioned above fitted the category. I saved not having to purchase Windows XP professional and Office XP Standard Edition for him. Plus I was able to re-use an older PC that was suitable for Mandrake. PC does everythinh he need including onboard sound plus some nifty games.

Susan B
16-06-2004, 12:11 PM
> I thought you considered yourself a clever man?
>
> The user you refer to isn't using linux as such,he is
> using the apps running on linux,get him to do a
> system task with linux and no help from his suport
> then come back and blow your horn.
>
> Hell,get him to install some nvidia display
> drivers,Even with detailed instructions he will be
> cursing linux.
>
> What a joke.

Whoa, Metla..... you can say that about the average Windows user as well. How many of them can install display drivers or do a system task? And no, I'm not referring to the type of people who regularly frequent this and other computer forums. ;-)


Why don't I change over to Linux? Mainly because I have spent well over $700 over the past four to five years on Windows and Windows programs that I need (and that is excluding games) and I want to get my money's worth out of them. If some can run on Linux that would be great, but what is the point of switching to Linux and using all my Windows programs on Linux? That would be daft - I may as well stick with Windows for running Windows apps.

I do play with Linux when I have spare time just for the fun of it and one day my next computer will probably be a Linux box. Unfortunately, at the moment I find it difficult getting my head around some of the Linux ways of doing things and it is particularly hard to remember things when I have had a bit of a break from it. :-(

metla
16-06-2004, 12:35 PM
>
> Whoa, Metla..... you can say that about the average
> Windows user as well. How many of them can install
> display drivers or do a system task? And no, I'm not
> referring to the type of people who regularly
> frequent this and other computer forums. ;-)
>


Instructions for installing display drivers for nvidia card

Windows.

Click .exe

Linux.

Currently there are not any pre-built kernel drivers for Mandrake Linux 9.0, so youíll have to construct your own. If youíve ever compiled your own binaries from source code, you wonít have any problems with the next step.

If you are using an earlier version of Linux, you can go to http://www.nvidia.com/view.asp?IO=linux_display_1.0-3123 to find a precompiled kernel driver to match your distro.

Building your own kernel drivers

Copy both the GLX and kernel drivers from the CD-ROM into a temporary directory on your hard disk. If you are installing a new video card, now is the time to turn your machine off and swap video cards. The easiest way to install the kernel drivers is to do the job in command line mode by typing linux 3 at the lilo prompt. Remember to log in as root, otherwise youíre not going to be able to exact any changes on the system. Change into the directory where you dumped the two tar balls and enter the following commands at the prompt:

$ tar xvzf NVIDIA_kernel-1.0-3123.tar.gz

$ tar xvzf NVIDIA_GLX-1.0-3123.tar.gz

This will unpack the two files into their own directories as sub-directories of the one you just created. Change into the NVIDIA_kernel-1.0-3123 directory and enter the command make install to install the nVidia kernel files. After this command has been completed successfully, key in cd ../NVIDIA_GLX-1.0-3123 to change into the GLX directory. Key in the same make install command to move the required OpenGL and XF86 files into the correct locations.

The next thing you have to do is tell XFree86 that the drivers are there, and to make use of them. At the console, type XFdrake and press enter. If you are using Red Hat, key in xconfigurator, and for SuSE, sax2 to launch the XF86 configuration scripts. This will detect the card and write a configuration file called /etc/X11/XF86Config-4. Open the same file with your preferred text editor, and look for the Module section. There should be a line that reads Load "glx". If itís not present, add it. Also look out for Load "dri" or Load "GLcore", and if they are there, delete the lines. Move through the text file to the Graphics device section. If the default driver is still there (look for the line Driver "nv"), replace it with Driver "nvidia" and save the file.

Youíve now made all the changes required to install the new driver files. The last thing you may want to do before restarting X is to add a drop-shadow to your mouse cursor. Open the /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 file in a text editor and add the following lines under the Option "DPMS" line:

Option "CursorShadow" "true"

Option "CursorShadowAlpha" "75"

Close and save the text file when you are done, and you will have a cursor shadow the next time you load X. You can also play with the transparency by modifying the number after "CursorShadowAlpha". Restart X by hitting ALT+CTRL+BACKSPACE, or (if you are still logged in under the command line mode), logout and log in under an X session.

Xvidtune

While you are fiddling around with your video drivers, you may want to configure the screen to ensure that you get the highest quality output possible. Refer to your monitor manual to find the highest refresh rate that your screen will tolerate without suffering damage and enter it into the /etc/X11/XF86Config-4 file. Itís extremely important to check your manual and be careful here, as using the wrong settings has a good chance of damaging your hardware.

After you have entered the refresh rates, restart X-windows and launch a console screen. Key in xvidtune at the shell prompt and press enter to launch the x video tuning application. Here you can make fine modifications to Xís output settings, and improve the output of your screen. xvidtune is especially useful for finetuning output to a LCD screen. Make sure that you donít make any changes that are unsupported by your hardware; the worst-case scenario could mean you paying for a new monitor and graphics card.

Of course, we could have provided a script to install the driver, make the changes to configuration files, and launch xvidtune for you, but whereís the fun in that? Much of the attraction of Linux is in rolling up your sleeves and diving into the inner workings of your computer. Itís the best way to learn how your Linux box actually works.




oh my giddy giddy aunt.

Terry Porritt
16-06-2004, 12:49 PM
I think you have proved your point very well indeed Metla :)

There cannot be any answer to that :D

mikebartnz
16-06-2004, 01:01 PM
>The user you refer to isn't using linux as such,he is using the apps running on linux,get him to do a system task with linux and no help from his suport then come back and blow your horn.
Sorry Metla but I don't think he would be any better off in Windows. I have sorted out problems for users of Windows with a reasonable amount of experience so I don't think there will be any horn blowing on either side.

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 01:04 PM
Wanna bet?

With windows you have to actually manually download the drivers. I dont:
emerge nvidia-kernel
emerge nvidia-glx

I then log out out, run the command:
mkxf86config
and log back in running nVidia drivers. I have just had the software download, install, and configure the drivers for me. Three commands and a logout (The system still wasnt rebooted). I'd like to see that beaten!

Of course, again we are back to the point of things being different between distro's, so while it's like this in mine, and something similar IIRC in Ark linux, I remember Fedora was easy, slackware was easy, but Lycoris was a bloody nightmare!

mikebartnz
16-06-2004, 01:04 PM
>but every pro linux post in this thread is more one sided then a Green party get together)
Mirror Mirror

metla
16-06-2004, 01:07 PM
> >The user you refer to isn't using linux as such,he
> is using the apps running on linux,get him to do a
> system task with linux and no help from his suport
> then come back and blow your horn.
> Sorry Metla but I don't think he would be any better
> off in Windows. I have sorted out problems for users
> of Windows with a reasonable amount of experience so
> I don't think there will be any horn blowing on
> either side.



Try again, I never said the same scenario wouldn't apply to windows, merely that someone using a program was no big deal, irrelevant of the platform it was running on.

metla
16-06-2004, 01:17 PM
> >but every pro linux post in this thread is more one
> sided then a Green party get together)
> Mirror Mirror

How so, am i on a campaign to open the worlds eyes to the beauty of windows?, do I extol its virtues without acknowledging its downsides?

I could care less what anyone runs, it makes no difference to me, if the shoe fits then wear it.

Linux is a collection of programs that certainly deserves accolades, but it ainít the be all and end all of anything.

Itís a quite ugly os, bundled with poor programs and has huge holes in its configuration, I will be surprised if it reaches the height of godliness that some claim before it collapses under its own weight, or someone gets around to writing some code that kills it.

nzStan
16-06-2004, 01:22 PM
In metla's context he is right

The original statement by SKT was

"Let say you have a PC with no OS and a person that have no computer experience, do you think that persoon can have the PC up and running with Windows or Linux if you gave him to try both?"

I would have said, no - the user wouldn't be able to install Windows or Linux without some help or experience.

But if it was installed for him and we just plonk him in front of either machine (like my linux user) yeah eventually he'll learn to use either O/S without problem.

But without Linux support? No, he'll face problem once he need to install Linux drivers or upgrade programs unless he gain sufficient experience to do it himself.

But then as I have said earlier - Linux user friendliness is improving all the time, and one would be foolish not to keep an eye on its progress.

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 01:23 PM
> or someone gets around to writing some code that
> kills it.
Similar to this you mean:
http://linuxreviews.org/news/2004-06-11_kernel_crash/index.html
http://pcworld.co.nz/news.nsf/NL/F860AFD93D5D454DCC256EB4006968DC

I actually cant find an icon theme that's more appealing.
And sure, its definately not for anybody. Why would the likes of Susan want to stray from her $700 odd investment in Windows software just to run it on Linux?

Well.. If she doesnt have a virus problem, or stability issues... Then why? ;\
There's no reason.. If she's going to run all identical apps, then why bother? She may as well grab a copy of ReactOS ;-)

Murray P
16-06-2004, 01:46 PM
As per previous posts. It does depend very much on your distro. Saying Linux this or Linux that is like saying how much you loathe DOS to the average XP user.

For your information, installing most drivers is as easy as clicking on Synaptic and choosing your, new install, upgrade or roll back or whatever, wait for download and install, no un-necessary, extraneous bits are downloaded let alone installed. And it's completely GUI based but at least it tells you what it's doing as it goes along. I have had no dependency issues, nor do I have to troubleshoot .DLL issues. That's in a Debian based distro that has been optimised for desktop use and the nVidia drivers were that easy.

As I've stated before, I'm moving my business to a Linux distro but, it's not a very complicated business as far as computer needs go. The only hurdle right now is choice (aka making a decision) and graphics software in that Gimp is too steep a learning curve at the mo for me to be entirely comfortable and I haven't quiet figured out my camera yet. I'll keep windows for games and the odd programme, definitely not for surfing, email and networking (hmm, that last one, online games maybe ;)

Terry, Is the default install routine in Xandros the Xandros Network thing otherwise you hit the CLI? If that's correct I can see how it is limiting. Debian has a huge support for all sorts of app's and devices. Mind you if you can, at the end of it, it may not be Xandros anymore but a TP special.

Cheers Murray P

metla
16-06-2004, 02:03 PM
which comes back to the point of why install nvidia drivers under linux at all?, anything over and above inbuilt graphics is complety wasted in a linux enviorment.

as is any advanced audio card,video editing card,tv cards to a large extent,and i have no idea if linux takes advantage of the features built into chipsets,especially in regards to performance.

SKT174
16-06-2004, 02:09 PM
How about device drivers? As I mentioned before :P

An average end user doesn't want the hassle to find (if there is one to begin with) all the drivers to make his devices work.

Say a person bought a scanner, digital cam and a web cam and there's no Linux drivers on the CD. He/She needs to go online to search all those drivers in order to make them run in Linux.

I think for us or people that loves playing around with PCs should be fine, but for a joe average home user, he/she rather just go with the easier route.

nzStan
16-06-2004, 02:11 PM
I think those playing FPS games under linux might want the latest drivers.

I know that Americas Army has a Linux version but I can't remember about the others (UT/Doom/Quake???) Someone who knows will be able to tell us.

metla
16-06-2004, 02:12 PM
I think it will be an excellent day when companies bundle linux drivers with hardware,imo they should be doing so already.

Perhaps there are just to many versions of linux doing the rounds?

nzStan
16-06-2004, 02:20 PM
Now here's something I don't know. Are there different drivers for different distro?

To date I've never had to install or upgrade a new linux device driver.

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 02:26 PM
The simple fact of the matter is that most Linux distro's bundle the vast majority of Drivers you'll need.

Linux is getting pretty good support for Games...
Stellar / # ls /usr/portage/games-fps/
aaquake2 quake2-icculus tenebrae
aaut quake3 transfusion-bin
americas-army quake3-alliance tribes2
anaglyph-stereo-quake quake3-alternatefire ttyquake
avp-cvs quake3-brainworks unreal
blackshades-cvs quake3-cpma unreal-tournament
cube quake3-defrag unreal-tournament-bonuspacks
doomlegacy quake3-demo unreal-tournament-goty
duke3d quake3-nsco unreal-tournament-infiltration
enemy-territory quake3-osp unreal-tournament-strikeforce
freedoom quake3-ra3 ut2003
imaze quake3-ruinhunters ut2003-bonuspack-cm
industri quake3-threewave ut2003-bonuspack-de
legends quake3-truecombat ut2003-bonuspack-epic
lsdldoom quake3-urbanterror ut2003-demo
nprquake-sdl quakeforge ut2004
postal2mpdemo red-blue-quake2 ut2004-demo
prboom rott vendetta-test
quake1 rtcw wmquake
quake2-data soldieroffortune wolfgl


Those are just the ones you can install/emerge automatically with Gentoo!
Legends is a pretty cool open-source game.

Now, also, for the average Joe who doesnt want to play the latest 3D games, they're not going to worry about performance boost of 'nvidia' over 'nv' or 'vesa' drivers are they?!

Cameras:
Most can be used through gphoto2 or similar apps, either that or Xandros is particularly good at picking them up just like Windows does, as a USB Thumbdrive!
External HDD? Mine worked prefect first-time in Linux, partitioning it was a snap! A customer came in with his WinXP PC and asked me to set up his External HDD because windows couldnt do it... Now Im not wanting to turn this into a Tally here, but that's one up for Linux.

TV Devices? Ive got a Philips Saa7134-based TV Tuner Card from DSE. Works perfect out of the box with no extra drivers (modprobe saa7134 if your kernel doesnt automatically do it). Fedora Core 2 should do it automatically though without you having to modprobe the drivers. USB TV Cards? Im getting a PixelView Play TV Pro USB, and Ive seen good reports all over the net about just plugging it in and it working.

Modem drivers:
Bloody winmodems... Xandros picked up my laptops WinModem fine and it worked, up and running in 30 seconds! Win2K / WinXP didnt however, nor does my current Gentoo

WebCams:
My Inbuilt webcam doesnt work (Its built in to the frame of the laptop) in Linux, nor does the cheap DC350 Chicony Webcam I tried. Such is life, but that's another one up for WinXP/

LAN on my Laptop:
Perfect in Linux, all of Gentoo, Xandros, Ark, Knoppix, but windows wanted drivers

Sound on my Laptop:
Linux was fine, all of the above. WinXP wanted drivers

WinXP wanted drivers for my Video Card (SiS 650-M), Linux didnt, but uses the 'vesa' drivers over SiS

I think you can see they're pretty equal, its just that Windows users are used to having things spoon-fed on Autoloading CD's.

My CD Burner / DVD-Rom combo drive works fine for playing DVD's and Burning in Linux, but I needed special software to watch DVD's in Windows, and to burn Audio CD's too!

I asked my Father to install Ark Linux on my laptop and get it going for me (This was before I put Gentoo on it) and he happily did so. Booted it and sound, video, lan all worked perfectly after a 20 minute installation. This coming from somebody who's not done an OS installation since Win95 (And that was only once) and was put off installing OS's because of it. He installed Ark fine :-)

So again, we can see that in certain instances both have their pro's and cons'.

Now back to the topic:
What would Linux need for you to consider using it?

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 02:28 PM
Different drivers for different Kernels.

Drivers are compiled against a kernel version and then only work with that kernel (Hence why most drivers are bundled with the kernel, or install specificall y for your Distro).

The same bttv driver you use for your TV Tuner Card in kernel-2.4.24 in Fedora is the same as kernel-2.4.26 in Knoppix 3.4 :-)

Susan B
16-06-2004, 02:29 PM
> oh my giddy giddy aunt.

ROTFLMAO :^O

OK Metla, you won that one hands down. :D


> And sure, its definately not for anybody. Why would the likes of Susan want to stray from her $700 odd investment in Windows software just to run it on Linux?

Exactly. The software still does what I need it to do and will for quite a while yet so I don't want to "stray from it" just for the sake of doing so.

> Well.. If she doesnt have a virus problem, or stability issues...

Nope. No virus problems nor stablity issues at all. The only problems I have are when I start fiddling.... and you can't blame that one on Windows. ;-)

Terry Porritt
16-06-2004, 08:20 PM
SKT174 says:
<<Say a person bought a scanner, digital cam and a web cam and there's no Linux drivers on the CD. He/She needs to go online to search all those drivers in order to make them run in Linux.>>

Chill says:
<<The simple fact of the matter is that most Linux distro's bundle the vast majority of Drivers you'll need.>>

I agree with SKT, but have to disagree with Chill insofar as my limited experience with Xandros (also Mandrake 9.0) and my particular hardware go.

But even then, you can search all you like and still not find any drivers for the hardware Ive already mentioned, webcam, scanner,soundcard, printer.

We havent even started to discuss yet the necessity for also having to learn the Unix like command line in order to anything that the GUI cant do, like installing a simple program when it doesnt come as a complete package, as it would of course in Windows.
I know the Gurus keep glossing over this to make it seem easy, well I suppose it is when you know how, but the point is you dont have to compile things and other esoteric operations in Windows or even DOS.

You just click the .exe as Metla said.

I will be a heretic and say the DOS command line is easier than the Unix command line.

When every retail device comes with a CD that has Linux software and drivers on it as well as Windows, when all programs can be installed with a single click with no extra bits to be installed first of all, when the arcane command line does not have to be used for everyday routine stuff,THEN and only THEN will 'Linux' be considered the equal of Windows, IMHO that is :).

Murray P
16-06-2004, 08:22 PM
> The only problems I have are when I start
> fiddling.... and you can't blame that one on Windows.
> ;-)

That's ok Susan, Bill and a few hardware manufacturers he gets on real well with, will soon have that little problem of itchy fingers sussed for you. You'll not be able to touch a thing without getting a new subscription for the flavour you want or paying a triffling royalty for the IP in that software or hardware. You wont have to bother with customisation again ;\

Cheers Murray P

JohnD
16-06-2004, 09:08 PM
>Linux is a collection of programs

Not so - Linux is the kernel. The collection of programs you refer to are put together as various distributions.

agent
16-06-2004, 09:24 PM
>When every retail device comes with a CD that has Linux software and drivers on it as well as Windows,
>when all programs can be installed with a single click with no extra bits to be installed first of all,
>when the arcane command line does not have to be used for everyday routine stuff,
>THEN and only THEN will 'Linux' be considered the equal of Windows

Well if that's your opinion, you should be lobbying manufacturers of hardware, software developers, and software publishers, because they are the ones who are not doing this. The fact that Microsoft holds approximately 90% of the desktop market means that it is in the favour of companies to only produce drivers for Windows, to only publish software that works with Windows. The Microsoft market holds the most potential for extracting money.

Perhaps the only reason why software also comes out for Apple computers is that it is also a market that money can be made from. And Microsoft is not concerned about Apple because it is a completely different hardware platform.

Linux, therefore, is the underdog - it will take some convincing of the industry on the whole to push out Linux-compatible drivers. Similarly, it would take some convincing of Linux users to pay for commercial software when they could have free alternatives - some people reckon that if OSS had the upper hand, the commercial software industry would be ruined.

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 09:46 PM
Just to follow on from that reason why Developers wont release Drivers etc:
Basically in the last LUG meeting we had a Novell Rep come and talk to us.

Novell have bought out SuSE and Ximian
Novell are now pushing their Desktop OS for use in a Corporate environment, with offerings that can not only compete with everything from Microsoft, but help businesses, educational institutes and government corporations free themselves from more restrictive liscencing (Apparently Suns Java Desktop is worse than MS products! :D).

From their, Novell's idea seems to be that users will have it at work, and want the same thing at home, to run the same apps, and interoperability etc.

Then, the kids / teens / gamers will have it on their desktop and will vote more with their wallets for Games that run Natively (Such as Unreal Tournament) on Linux.

From there, hardware manufacturers will tap into it....

That's Novells idea anyways (Jen do you want to make sure I got that right?)


Chill.

metla
16-06-2004, 09:53 PM
They should be pushing it into schools,and makin teachers use it.

agent
16-06-2004, 10:08 PM
Yes, users may end up using Novell products at work, but would they convert at home?

Microsoft has such a large user base in the home because it's what a lot of people grew up with. Essentially, the end users who consider making the change will need "reconditioning" to expend so much effort, not to mention good lures and a guarantee of support should everything go wrong.

Stability here is not an issue, it is the first impressions, and if it all goes horribly wrong when they are just starting out, they won't very much like it.

Chilling_Silence
16-06-2004, 10:10 PM
> They should be pushing it into schools,and makin
> teachers use it.


That's what Novell are hoping for,

Checking out some of their products.. Brilliant...
And from there they'd sell off copies of the OS for something like $5 each seems to be the expected price for Students etc, and Novell are basically hoping to take their new SuSE Desktop to the Masses :-)

Jen C
16-06-2004, 10:10 PM
>That's Novells idea anyways (Jen do you want to make sure I got that right?)

The LUG was very interesting hearing where Novell is heading with Linux and their SuSE and Ximiam products. They are really keen to get Linux (SuSE/Ximian) into the corporate desktop market and these two products are being developed to make this change-over as seamless as possible. For example the inclusion of Ximian's Evolution which is a Outlook clone with all the same functionality and very similar appearance.

They are business partners with IBM and Dell, and IBM especially, are rolling out Linux certified computers to be used as desktop/laptop machines (this is only really happening in the larger overseas market at the moment). Although, if they get a big enough order (100+), it will be commerically viable to produce these systems here.

Novell are looking for the corporate user with a Linux desktop computer, to also want the same system for their home computer (well this is the idea in the grand scheme of things). As more users are demanding Linux systems, pressure will go on manufacturers to produce support and drivers for Linux OS's. This will roll over to the family wanting to play games, and again, it will be more commercially viable for the game developers to produce native Linux games. But unfortunately, until user market demand increases, the gamer's will have to wait a bit longer.

A think Linux is fast becoming a rolling-stone, gathering up speed as it becomes a more viable real alternative for all as a desktop system.

It will be very interesting to see what the desktop market looks like in the next 2-5 years time. :)

pulling hair out
17-06-2004, 01:31 AM
> > *yawn* did you think I really directed my post just
> at you?

Ditto "Yawn" Whiskey Tangled Foot.

Am taking the advice of previous posts to ignore all that is irrelevant and take advice from those who have the ability to reply to queries in an intelligent, well-informed and helpful way.

Fortunately that applies to 99% of the people in this forum or I wouldn't bother to read the posts.

Marg.

PS the electrical trade have used 'colour' in their business for many years. It makes good sense to do so.

Greg S
17-06-2004, 11:37 AM
I'd use Linux if most of my customers did, so I could offer them support. None do, so i can't be bothered at this stage. I'm not enough of a geek to wanna try it out just for its own sake, despite being mildly curious

Chilling_Silence
17-06-2004, 05:53 PM
On the note of Drivers for Linux, have a look at what Ive come across today:
"Open Funding" for Driver Development (http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/06/16/1656250)

Seems like a good idea, right :-)
...But will it work?!

kiki
17-06-2004, 06:45 PM
http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/APIWar.html

I like this comment:

"Remember the definition of an operating system? It's the thing that manages a computer's resources so that application programs can run. People don't really care much about operating systems; they care about those application programs that the operating system makes possible. Word Processors. Instant Messaging. Email. Accounts Payable. Web sites with pictures of Paris Hilton. By itself, an operating system is not that useful. People buy operating systems because of the useful applications that run on it. And therefore the most useful operating system is the one that has the most useful applications."

Chilling_Silence
17-06-2004, 06:55 PM
A fellow /.'er ;-) Read that earlier today, quite an interesting article with some valid points!

Murray P
17-06-2004, 08:03 PM
I hope he's wrong about web deployment being the main way we will use our computers. Basically just running a browser. It will be called interactive of course but in real terms its not really, try saving something to your drive as anything other than simple text for eg.

It would be a boost to alternative OS's with very little in the way of cross platform issues but, it will take the gloss off the individuality that can be experienced even if everyone is running the same OS but running a different mix of app's.

Cheers Murray P

mikebartnz
17-06-2004, 08:32 PM
Interesting article.

metla
17-06-2004, 09:07 PM
web deployment is a terrible idea,is data transfer suddenly going to become free?.or are we to pay everytime we use a computer?

It may work for clusters,large networks,whatever,it will never take off in the home market.

Its nearly as retarded an idea as cell cpu's.

benwy
12-07-2004, 12:20 AM
There hasn't been too many opinions from BSD users.

I started using FreeBSD a year ago, following the natural path to geekdom (Windows -> GNU/Linux -> *BSD) and don't know how I managed to get by with MS Windows. For people interested in programming, networking etc I believe that any BSD OS is a better choice than any GNU/Linux distribution.

However you must remember that most BSD OS users are quite happy to delve into the source code of a program just to make it work. For people who don't see the fun in the above task and just need the darn thing to work and work well then MS Windows, closely followed by GNU/Linux is the best OS in that particular case.

It all depends on how you use a computer. If you use it to read e-mail, surf the internet and write the occasional anonymous death threat to the boss then there's not much point using an operating system that was designed by programmers for use by programmers. On the other hand, if computers and every different aspect of them fascinate you, you'd be doing yourself a favour to run a BSD OS - yes even Solaris if you feel the need.

Saying that there's no place for MS Windows is basically saying that there's no place for end users.

Murray P
12-07-2004, 12:56 AM
Hi Ben, welcome to PF1.

As a non-programmer I'll take your word for the programming aspects being fun. There are people who are challenged by the aspects of OS's and programmes, and therefore do not have a great understanding of what lies beneath it all, that are still interested in doing more than just the usual net things, games, word processing, etc. I guess you might put us in the tinkerers and breakers category of users, excellent beta testers if they can pass on the right info ;)

&gt; Saying that there's no place for MS Windows is basically saying that there's no place for end
&gt; users.

I'm not sure if anyone has actually said there is no place for Windows, have to check the posts. There certainly should be no place for the security flaws and major bugs, but nothing is ever going to be perfect. For me mainly the corporate practices of MS (and their ilk) grate a bit, again nothing is going to be perfect but it could be a lot better. If there was a bit less MS and a bit more alternative out there, I'm sure the end users would adapt and the majority be better off. It could even up the market for programmers.

Cheers Murray P

mark.p
12-07-2004, 06:52 AM
"That's all i can remember..." Can i update your memory then ;)...
Well I just installed knoppix on a p200mmx, it took an hour total to be installed , connected to my home network, the internet and it's loaded with usefull applications. Help is a breeze aka Google. The fonts issue is well over with, where have you been for the last two year lol. Documention is allllll over the place online, on the install cds in books...........

mark.p
12-07-2004, 07:43 AM
Oh and for a leg up on standalone PC with Linux the Simply Linux Book- http://jetblackz.freesite.org/ - is worth a look. Downloable in text format to read at ones leisure.

Growly
12-07-2004, 09:21 AM
Well quoted kiki :D

Right, since my last post, i have used Linux with PuTTY to run servers - but my main quarrel is - at present, and forever more will be -

THE BLOOMIN' FONTS!!!!!!

I turn off anti-aliasing, but no - it just had to keep smoothing them out; all the while giving me a headache!

Chilling_Silence
12-07-2004, 11:20 AM
> However you must remember that most BSD OS users are
> quite happy to delve into the source code of a
> program just to make it work. For people who don't
> see the fun in the above task and just need the darn
> thing to work and work well then MS Windows, closely
> followed by GNU/Linux is the best OS in that
> particular case.

Interesting comments there.....
One of the hardest thing Ive found (And the best things too) is that there's just so much choice with Linux.

Im currently running Gentoo Linux 2004.1 stage1 x86 kernel-2.6.7-love7, and can safely say that while I dont understand all the source code, its nice to just read it, look at it, see how its written etc.
Yet other Linux's dont bother with anything like that.
What are BSD's like in relation to this?

Im just curious about BSD - What are some of the other differences between it and Linux?

Growly
12-07-2004, 12:28 PM
> "That's all i can remember..." Can i update your
> memory then ;)...
> Well I just installed knoppix on a p200mmx, it took
> an hour total to be installed , connected to my home
> network, the internet and it's loaded with usefull
> applications. Help is a breeze aka Google. The
> fonts issue is well over with, where have you been
> for the last two year lol.

Up till midway through last year, 56K stopped me from touching linux. Also up till midway through last year, I was trying to fix my Windows 95 Computer, which I believe is the best OS around.

> Documention is allllll
> over the place online, on the install cds in
> books...........


I'm sorry, was that directed at me?

It is but a common myth that help for linux is easy to find - mainly because I don't need common things. Any operating system can browse the web, send email and make text documents - therefore I don't believe that there is a point in moving to Linux. I do, however, want to - but I also want to use it to do more good than the bare necessities.

Like the last time I tried to compile and install my kernel - I got random errors that no one here nor on google could do anything about.

Sure help is online - but not often for the right distribution or the right setup - and I can't be bothered walking for an hour to the library.

I have plenty of spare 200MHz pentiums lying around - but one is runing Server 2003, and the other XP Pro - so no problems there. And by useful applications, what do you mean?

But most importantly...

> The fonts issue is well over with, ...

Other people have my problem? IT'S BEEN FIXED? WHERE?!?!?!?!

Chilling_Silence
12-07-2004, 12:42 PM
> > Documention is allllll
> > over the place online, on the install cds in
> > books...........
>
> It is but a common myth that help for linux is easy
> to find - mainly because I don't need common things.
> Any operating system can browse the web, send email
> and make text documents - therefore I don't believe
> that there is a point in moving to Linux. I do,
> however, want to - but I also want to use it to do
> more good than the bare necessities.
There's much more than just Google. Tried LUG mailing-lists? IRC? Freenode.net is a brilliant source for help!

> Like the last time I tried to compile and install my
> kernel - I got random errors that no one here nor on
> google could do anything about.
Compiling a kernel eh?
Did you make a post here? Tried a LUG list or IRC?
My point is this: I had random kernel panic's when installing kernel-2.6.7-love7 and I nor anybody in #love-sources on freenode could work out why. We have solved it though by using a working kernel .config and slowly tweaking it. The result: A nicely trimmed working kernel, and about 20 old kernels in /boot that I dont need.
Help is not hard to get.

> Sure help is online - but not often for the right
> distribution or the right setup - and I can't be
> bothered walking for an hour to the library.
I dunno bout you but Ive never been to the library, and to date I have no nagging issues with any of my Linux boxes.

> But most importantly...
>
> > The fonts issue is well over with, ...
>
> Other people have my problem? IT'S BEEN FIXED?
> WHERE?!?!?!?!
Can I ask what font issue this is?


Chill.

Growly
12-07-2004, 12:48 PM
OK fine, you win, lots of help. I'm just too ignorant to find it.

(Oh and yes, I did post here)

Right, I'll say it again:

When in Linux, the fonts are all anti-aliased. I turned this off - but nothing happened, and they still looked anti-aliased - which HURTS MY EYES!

Oh and about the kernel - my problem was never solved. I think it was a bad install of Knoppix, which isn't meant to be installed, and by installing fedora everything turned out sweet. I compiled a new kernel and got as far as entering it into LILO - then realised that I was using GRUB and that LILO would do nothing.

argus
12-07-2004, 01:54 PM
My train of thought goes rather like this:

Want to dual-boot for safety and reassurance - not because Windows is "better than" Linux or "easier", or because I feel I "might not like" an unfamiliar system, but because there will be an inevitable transition period and I am bound to find apps I have been using for years on Windows have no precise Linux equivalent and all files created with them could be useless unless I have a transition mechanism.

So: dual boot Windows and Linux Easy-peasy; first partition your disk. This will be more or less automatic if you are using FAT32, but if you are unlucky enough to be using NTFS, well, first get Partition Magic...

You want HOW MUCH for an application that I will use once, or twice if things go badly?!

OK, let's abandon that idea and install Linux on its own on the Old Computer. You want HOW MANY Gbytes minimum? [And no, I'm not going back to a command-line interface; I am neither a geek nor a masochist]. I though this was an efficient economical OS... I can do you four. No good; well it'll have to wait till I can afford more disk - or upgrade and pension off another computer.

Which has me singing the parody someone put out of the Stones song used to launch Windows 95.

"....brought it home and tried to boot it up
Woe is me; I find my memory is not enough....

"This Windows ninety fiiiive
It's eating up my driiiive.....

"I have to get myself a brand new macheeeene!"

And that's the state I'm in at the moment.

Even if I splurged on Partition Magic (and I distrust "Magic" almost as much as "Wizard" - "works like magic!" "Youi mean only when the Moon is in Scorpio and you cross your fingers in the right way?"), I'm still not sure I'd have room on my 20 GB newly "clean machine" for both OSs and some useful work.

I'll get round to it one day, honest I will; one more hardware renewal cycle should do it. Unless they bring out a better, brighter Linux, of course....

Argus

benwy
12-07-2004, 01:56 PM
> Im just curious about BSD - What are some of the
> other differences between it and Linux?

http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/rants/bsd4linux/bsd4linux1.php is a great read if you have the time, for a slightly more humerous point of view check out http://www.xs4all.nl/~marcone/bsdversuslinux.html.

I'd say the biggest difference is that FreeBSD, NetBSD and OpenBSD are not UNIX clones like GNU/Linux, they are true UNIX operating systems (but technically you can't call them UNIX because the brand UNIX is copyrighted - you must say UNIX-like).

A great thing about the BSDs mentioned above is the ports and packages system. For example the command "pkg_add -r mozilla" will download, compile and install the latest stable version of the Mozilla web browser from source code - all you need to do is stay connected to the internet. While I could go on and on about the ports and packages system I think the best way to find out about them is to start using a BSD OS and see for yourself.

>Yet other Linux's dont bother with anything like that.
>What are BSD's like in relation to this?

If you are talking about the availability of source code then all three main BSDs, like GNU/Linux, come with source code for both the kernel and user-applications (as long as they are open-source). Whereas GNU/Linux is under the GPL, the BSDs are under the BSD licence which is a lot less restrictive the the GPL, the BSD licence basically says; don't claim you wrote this, don't sue us if it breaks and don't use our name to promote your product.

I've never used Gentoo Linux before but have heard that it uses a similar ports/packages system to the BSDs, is this the case Chilling _Silence?

joanc
12-07-2004, 03:00 PM
Mine is a lot simpler:

I can't stand the attitude of Linux users. If you can't make it work, they think you are stupid. If you say something negative about Linux, they get all shirty. You ask if there is a simpler way to do something and you get told that it is easy and...you are stupid.

In the past when I have ask nicely for help, I have been insulted. So if I install Linux, I know I am going to have to walk through this minefield. Interestingly, I have never had this kind of problem when asking other Windows users for help.

There are some decent Linux users out there, but the attitude of the majority is really unwelcoming and defensive. You can see this mentality in the posts above.

Joan

Chilling_Silence
12-07-2004, 03:52 PM
Woah, Growly, I wasnt meaning any disrespect....

Have you checked your /etc/X11/XF86Config file and removed the line:
Load "truetype"

Also check the fontpath settings

Argus:
If you grab Knoppix or any of a few other Live Linux CD's you can use a program called qtparted. It allows non-destructive resizing of Fat/ntfs partitions and doesnt cost a cent!

Benwy:
AFAIK, the Gentoo Linux package management system Portage is based on BSD's ports. Not too sure having never used BSD myself.
In Gentoo is:
emerge mozilla
or, if you dont want to install printer support:
USE="-cups" emerge mozilla

is Ports very different?

Joanc:
Ive come across a few trolls in my time too, however Ive had a different experience and found that 9 times out of 10, linux users are more than happy to go the extra mile to help you.
Ive had more than my fair share of "troubles", admittedly most are self-inflicted because I didnt want to do things the easy way, but almost all users I have met have been very helpful, especially those here.
Search PressF1 for Jaguar and his post on making Redhat 9 "homely" and you'll see the extra lengths that some linux users go to.

Defensive? Probably
Unwelcoming? I'd certainly hope not.
Obviously Im not the only Linux user in the world and cant speak for everybody, but nonetheless I'd hope that I leave a good impression that we are mostly a friendly (Mostly Male too ;-)) bunch who are more than happy to help out in any way we can. Usually this is because somebody helped out when we were starting off as Linux users (I know that applies to me) and want to pay-forward some of the help.

</long-winded-speech>


Chill.

kiki
12-07-2004, 04:09 PM
Random quick OT question here: I have a Pentium 200 with 64mb EDO ram and a TNT2 16mb video card and I tried installing an old 20gb hard drive in it. It managed to find 9Gb of it which a BIOS upgrade didn't fix (too old I guess).

Then I get around to installing Windows 98se on it and it errored with something about not having the correct Fat32 system after the install had finished. Weird. Anyway I want to install linux on it. Something new, newbie friendly and doesn't use too much memory. Just for general surfing for my youngest brother, amsn, etc. What distro shall I download overnight?

Graham L
12-07-2004, 04:43 PM
joanc: only a fool would say that "it is easy and ... you are stupid". You can't stand the attitude of some *nix users. Some Microsoft users have a poor attitude too. ;-)

You will find abusive, unwelcoming and defensive people in many on-line forums. It's the nature of the medium. It used to be better 20-odd years ago, when everyone used real names. :-(

However, this is really an "advocacy" thread which always generates more heat than light.

You won't find quite as much "feelings" if you ask a question about *nix here. Most questions are treated with reasonable respect and courtesy, but sometimes the standard drops. ;-) I confess even I (and I'm perfect :D) sometimes display mild impatience when someone is determined to not do any work and actually read and try to understand something.

It is a myth, eagerly progagated by marketers, that computers are simple and easy to understand. Layer on layer of software has been built in efforts to make that half true. Unfortunately, the huge heaps of software tend to slide and become unstable under their own weight.

The basic fact which won't go away is that a computer which does anything non-trivial is not "easy to understand" It's certainly not "user-friendly".

Microsoft software will probably suit most home users. Those who persist in "tuning" or "improving" it or do "clever things" with it deserve what they get. ;-)

*nix software comes from a thirty year tradition of scientific programming. For those who enjoy the challenge of programming, and even prefer a command-line system, it's lovely. Even DOS is OK as a programme loader. :D

Putting a GUI in front of *nix is just loading it up with working methods and pereferences of other people. The huge amount of "user-fiendly" stuff just reduces the reliability. And slows down the useful "computing".

Chilling_Silence
12-07-2004, 04:50 PM
kiki:
Ark Linux or Xandros Desktop OS 2.0 OCE

Either one will require you to download the tk/tcl packages and then amsn afterwards.

Do you want it to look/feel like Windows, or look/feel like KDE?

Graham L:
Interesting, yet true perspective you've voiced there :-)

Growly
12-07-2004, 05:36 PM
Cheers as always chill - will do!

kiki
12-07-2004, 06:57 PM
Thanks Chill, just what I was looking for.

I'd like it to look/feel a bit like windows.

Looks like you have to pay for Xandros :( Or I might try the free bittorrent download, unless there were some NZ ftp mirrors floating round.

Ark linux is in the emule que with no sources. I've looked through the ftp mirrors for it and its an absolute maze to find what you are looking for!

Jen C
12-07-2004, 07:03 PM
> Ark linux is in the emule que with no sources. I've
> looked through the ftp mirrors for it and its an
> absolute maze to find what you are looking for!

Ark Linux is nice :)

You can find the download mirrors here (http://www.arklinux.org/download.php)

Growly
12-07-2004, 07:11 PM
>linux users are more than happy to go the extra mile to help you.

Chill, on the other hand, often goes three extra miles.

Jen C
12-07-2004, 07:12 PM
Oops - forgot to specify exactly what you need to look for.

Ark Linux is up to alpha12 as the latest version.

Use this ftp as an example: ftp://ibiblio.org/pub/Linux/distributions/arklinux/1.0-0.alpha12.1/iso/

arklinux-1.0-alpha12.iso <--- this is the install disc, gives you a basic setup

ark-extra-software-1.0-alpha12.iso <--- this contains lots of extra packages

ark-development-suite-1.0-alpha12.iso <--- this contain the development tools and extra kernels etc

ark-extra-languages-1.0-alpha12.iso <--- support for languages other than English

ark-server-software-1.0-alpha12.iso <--- packages for servers

All the iso's labelled sources contain the sources for all the packages instead, you do not need these. You could just use the Install disc alone, but the extra-software and development-suit might come in handy, it depends on how adventurous you are planning to be :)

kiki
12-07-2004, 07:14 PM
> You can find the download mirrors here

:^O Yes, click on one of the ftp links and have a little browse ;) I spent 10mins trying to figure out what to download, then I gave up!

Jen C
12-07-2004, 07:24 PM
>I spent 10mins trying to figure out what to download, then I gave up!

kiki>

See my post above. If you have further questions regarding the iso's, just ask. :)

kiki
12-07-2004, 07:34 PM
Ahh now I see, thanks for sorting that out Jen it all makes sense now! :)

I'll search through a few more servers to use as mirrors for the download. Then flashget can really make use of the connection! ;)

Chilling_Silence
12-07-2004, 08:29 PM
Hey Kiki,

Im putting Xandros OCE on my FTP Server for Gods-Hitman. You'll both be sharing my 128kbps connection for the next two days, but it'll get you Xandros none-the-less....

Email me:
Chill [at] dimension [dot] net [dot] nz
And I'll send you a URL if you want.


Chill.

kiki
12-07-2004, 10:03 PM
>>linux users are more than happy to go the extra mile to help you.

> Chill, on the other hand, often goes three extra miles.

Indeed. :D

Thanks Chill!

My apologies for hijacking the thread...

jcr1
13-07-2004, 08:24 AM
>If you grab Knoppix or any of a few other Live Linux CD's you can use a program called qtparted. It allows non-destructive resizing of Fat/ntfs partitions and doesnt cost a cent!

I have just installed Libranet 2.8 (after a few months in the wilderness) and I set up the partition with "BootLt NG" a free one that works off a floppy.
I used it as the partitioner with Libranet didn't seem to want to work with NTFS.
But, what I did was, just used BootLt NG to resize NTFS then I used Libranet to create Linux partitions on the free space and it worked well.
Just thought this comment might be helpful.

Chilling_Silence
13-07-2004, 10:11 AM
jcr1:
Have you got a URL for BootLT NG?

Kiki:
Sorry to see your download is going so slow, Gods-hitman appears to be splitting the download, but is at 91% anyways so you should see some speed by about mid-day :-)


Cheers


Chill.

jcr1
13-07-2004, 11:06 AM
>http://www.terabyteunlimited.com/bootitng.html

Chill, thats the URL. It has a download option and a purchase option.
I just tested it now from download and installed it and got to the prompt where you make a floppy or cd; so it looks like there is still a free basic version.
I keep my floppy in my box of tricks.

jcr1
13-07-2004, 11:08 AM
oops, why did it go bold.
Sorry

mikebartnz
13-07-2004, 11:34 AM
>I can't stand the attitude of Linux users. If you can't make it work, they think you are stupid. If you say something negative about Linux, they get all shirty. You ask if there is a simpler way to do something and you get told that it is easy and...you are stupid.

Have never seen that on this site but maybe you need to read up on this (http://pressf1.pcworld.co.nz/thread.jsp?forum=1&thread=48853)

Growly
13-07-2004, 12:22 PM
Right, fonts are I THINK not anti-aliased - but they still look crap. I mean c'mon...

*sigh*

So, Xandros, huh Chill? ;)

Chilling_Silence
13-07-2004, 01:31 PM
I'll post you a pic of some real smooth fonts shortly...

BTW - Are you using KDE or GNOME?

Growly
13-07-2004, 01:47 PM
Gnome , then i didn't know how to install fonts so i switched to KDE.

Chilling_Silence
13-07-2004, 03:22 PM
Are you using the default serif fonts in KDE?
Mind sending me a screenshot with ksnapshot?

mejobloggs
13-07-2004, 06:15 PM
Support for all my windows games

Jen C
13-07-2004, 06:35 PM
> Support for all my windows games

Read this article a while ago about Linux and games. It is a very interesting perspective from some people involved the the Linux gaming industry.

So rather than trying to support Windows, it is preferable to support native Linux games and the developers who produce them. Given a choice, I would buy a Linux version of a game over a Windows version. :)

Jen C
13-07-2004, 06:55 PM
>Read this article a while ago about Linux and games.

LOL - it might help if I included the link :p

Mainstream Games on the Linux Desktop (http://www.linuxworld.com/story/44095.htm?DE=1)

Growly
13-07-2004, 07:05 PM
I still think this was all summed up with kiki's quote:

"Remember the definition of an operating system? It's the thing that manages a computer's resources so that application programs can run. People don't really care much about operating systems; they care about those application programs that the operating system makes possible. Word Processors. Instant Messaging. Email. Accounts Payable. Web sites with pictures of Paris Hilton. By itself, an operating system is not that useful. People buy operating systems because of the useful applications that run on it. And therefore the most useful operating system is the one that has the most useful applications."

kiki
13-07-2004, 07:43 PM
According to this new article (http://www.anandtech.com/linux/showdoc.aspx?i=2114) there needs to be some better video drivers made for linux and the games because that clearly shows XP with better performance.

Oh and thanks Chill, I was simultaneously downloading Ark linux last night as well and that will be why it was going a little slow for me ;)

tedheath
13-07-2004, 09:25 PM
If you are a non conformist an eccentric, greenie, Skoda driver, wear ethnic clothes, vote labour/green, pothead, wear maori bone carving but you are white by all means use stupid linux.
Just be quiet about it and dont annoy the 95% plus who use Microsoft Windows.
Its a bit like the $18.00 angle grinder I bought at the Warehouse you get what you pay for, linux is free go figure.

tedheath

mikebartnz
13-07-2004, 10:08 PM
>If you are a non conformist an eccentric, greenie, Skoda driver, wear ethnic clothes, vote labour/green, pothead, wear maori bone carving but you are white by all means use stupid linux.
>Just be quiet about it and dont annoy the 95% plus who use Microsoft Windows.

There is a saying "It is better to let someone think you are a fool than to open your mouth (type) and prove it."

Chilling_Silence
14-07-2004, 12:00 AM
Growly, Mikebartnz:
Good points :-)


I think that Gaming also is a real catch-22, so native games like Battle for Wesnoth have to fill in the void for the time being :-)

Kiki:
Nice article - Sad they didnt review debian and gentoo also :-(