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Young Tom
12-06-2004, 06:24 PM
Building new house.
Could anyone advise on what I should put in re wiring,in particular.

Exwesty
12-06-2004, 06:44 PM
Cat 5 to as many places as possible for Phone, & data and all wired back to a patch panel or similar.

Tv aerial cable to all rooms and also back to a patch panel.

Home theatre wiring, speakers and input wiring also wired back to a common point so that the source location can be changed around

door bell
Alarm
etc

dipstick01
12-06-2004, 07:05 PM
Golden rule for your home theatre wiring.......make sure the length of the wires going to each pair of speakers is the SAME length. Sound takes time to travel and home theatre units can alter the effect by delaying the sound for milliseconds....I think ya see the picture.

Also think about what other parts of the house will get sound from the home theatre and allow wiring for them also
One plan I have seen so far was very wise in that there was a central cupboard set up for all the wiring to lead into. The home theatre, a computer, 300 disc CD stacker, sky, a broadband router and various other bits were installed there and it was properly cooled. By using a remote infrared units around the house they had control of the audio in the house and a DVD player sited under the tele for movies. The family could also use either the basic PC for movies and audio through a bluetooth setup fpr the keyboard and mouse or they connected their PC's to the router cables that came through to various rooms.

godfather
12-06-2004, 07:53 PM
> Golden rule for your home theatre wiring.......make
> sure the length of the wires going to each pair of
> speakers is the SAME length. Sound takes time to
> travel and home theatre units can alter the effect by
> delaying the sound for milliseconds....I think ya see
> the picture.

Hmmm....

Speed of signal in cable ~300,000,000 meters per second
Speed of sound from the speaker ~ 340 meters per second.

Sorry dipstick01, but the cable length will not even be a measurable factor compared to where you are sitting in the room.

The cable length may have a small bearing on matching impedance and audio response of all speakers, but certainly unlikely to have any measurable bearing on "delay" of sound to the ear.

Its a factor of almost a million to one, ear position to cable length!

Growly
12-06-2004, 08:07 PM
I'd say use CAT6, its alot more future proof. (And houses aren't things you redo with each speed fad)

Billy T
12-06-2004, 08:35 PM
I'd future proof by using Cat 5E or preferably Cat 6 to take advantage of future developments in high speed networking & streamed entertainment.

Establish a central hub in a location big enough to house any equipment you may need to locate there and run Cat 6, Hi-grade Coax and suitable cabling for all foreseeable entertainment and communication needs. Cable is cheap and can be left inside the wall until needed, just don't forget to take measurements to help you find it in the future.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

Growly
12-06-2004, 08:47 PM
Oh, and make sure you take into account cabling requirements for certain standards.

100BaseTX Ethernet, for example, is limited to a cabling length of 100 Metres between Hub (or switch) and each client (or node).

godfather
12-06-2004, 11:58 PM
And after you wire the house for telephone and data, you will convert everything to wireless, and not need the wiring anyway. Thats called progress I think.

I wired this house to cover most complex communications, now its all redundant as the entire telephone system uses 1 socket (DECT phone system with multiple handsets) ADSL uses 1 socket and the fax uses 1 socket.

Network coverage is available via wireless over the entire house, giving access to the ADSL router and 2 network printers.

Winston001
13-06-2004, 12:49 AM
My own thoughts exactly GF. I considered future-proofing our house a few years ago but am glad I didn't. Wireless has gone from dodgy 3 years ago, to reasonably achievable today. I understand there are still problems with interference between cordless phones and access points, but that will get sorted soon too.

In fact Tom, the day will come when each appliance will be powered by its own quantum motor and wiring will become a quaint exhibit in museums.

Or maybe thats going to happen in one of the other universes. I get so confused................................ :_|

R2x1
13-06-2004, 12:54 AM
> Speed of signal in cable ~300,000,000 meters per
> second
> Speed of sound from the speaker ~ 340 meters per
> second.
>

Is this applicable in rural areas, where speed limits are generally higher? (except for phones of course)
R2

tweak\'e
13-06-2004, 11:39 AM
now to be more realistic......

it all depends on what you require, add a bit for future exspansion but going whole hog is just a waste of money if your not going to use it.

work out what you NEED and then what you would LIKE. then get the pro's in for a look. (and NO i don't mean just the run of the mill sparky).

if your looking at home automation then get them in to advize. you also need to plan on repairs and the abilty to change systems. i know of a smart house that basicly is stuffed because they can't change the smart house system and the company is long gone so they can't get parts for it.

for aerial systems thers sat systems, sky return + local, home theater, remote control. lan system for computers, mayby an aerial lead for wireless connection. don't forget security system which can also interface with ather parts of the house eg you can phone in and tell it to switch the spa on before you get home ;-)

but most important is to get the specialists in for a chat. i had a case recently where a sparky had wired up a home theature so you can move everything around. only problem was the speakers where all in wrong places and if you moved the speakers to the 2nd location (and seating) you couldn't see the tv screen! (and setting up the return system and remote system for a dual input setup cost more than it was worth so the extra speaker wires where just ripped out and was wired as a single location setup).

Terry Porritt
13-06-2004, 11:59 AM
Just wandering off topic a bit, but Dipstick reminded me :)

...........and then there are super beings who have golden ears and can detect the difference between using ordinary copper wire and fancy copper wire for their speakers.

In recent years also, with those too young to have grown up with, designed with, and used valves, we now have another new super breed of golden ears that can supposedly detect the sound quality differences between different makes of 12AT7 (ECC81) double triode valves used in pre-amps to give that 'valve' sound , when back in the valve days we had all the Mullard audio engineers, and amplifier designers like Williamson and my old mate Jack Dinsdale and such things were never mentioned.

It is strange that these things can never be actually measured.


As science develops people are more and more hooked on mystical mumbo-jumbo, so it seems. to me?:|

tweak\'e
13-06-2004, 12:20 PM
its easy enough to tell the difference between fancy cable and crap cable. you just need to know what to listen for. as far as the difference between good cable and super duber cable is just cost, looks and marketing ;-)

tho got to agree about the super ears and the valves. i doubt the speakers would ever be good enough to produse the difference.

tweak\'e
13-06-2004, 12:22 PM
sorry i forgot the most basic of things...

what ever you install in your home you still have to remember how to use it !

tbacon_nz
13-06-2004, 05:25 PM
I went through this whole exercise a couple of years ago, and learned several things (I think).

If you are looking for an integrated solution provider (i.e. Data/security/home entertainment/lighting) there are very few who do the whole thing - we found one at that time. Most do some subset - data/security, entertainment/data, etc.

If you go that route you need to realize you are buying a system that will need managing, will probably have software of some sort associated with it (expect bugs and changes and upgrades) and is not totally invisible like conventional house wiring.

I think if I was starting now I would have gone wireless for the data, as Godfather and Winston001 suggest. Although I have data outlets in almost every room, there are still occasions when I could have done with something somewhere else.

The providers (in my experience) are learning as they go, so expect lots of changes especially in the early stages. This was also confirmed to me by another electrician who had dealt with several different outfits.

You are locking yourself into a proprietary solution, and a long-term relationship with the provider, so you need to be very satisfied about the technical and financial capabilities of the company. The comment by tweak'e about the provider growing broke is what sends shivers up my spine.

If you want to talk about my provider, it is probably better suited to a private conversation. You can email me: tony DOT bacon AT sthw DOT co DOT nz

HTH

Growly
13-06-2004, 05:46 PM
Yes, cabling may prove redundant, BUT you should cable anyway.

Wireless depends on too many environmental factors to be a surefire answer. Depding on walls, wall material, etc. It's also quite slow in comparison to some of the best cabled specifications out now. And if you want quality, esp for stereo systems, I suggest you keep cabling.

Also, you should use Cat5e or Cat6 for telephone cabling, that way, if in the event of what hapened to GF, you can only use a a few for phones and the rest for networks.

you can even use the same plugs for networks and phones (that can vary...)

Young Tom
13-06-2004, 06:44 PM
Gentlemen,thank you all,great stuff.Will print all this out and refer back as needed.

I am in a room with two others,when saw cat5 etc,I turned to them and asked if they knew what that meant,they didn't,I am not alone.

andy
14-06-2004, 11:00 AM
When I recently renovated our living room, dining and kitchen area, I installed two cat 5e, two co-ax (RG6) and six speaker cables to every point where I thought we might put a tv, the home-theatre/sound system or computer. I ran these all back to a cabinet patch panel in the laundry. It didn't cost much for cables and the finishing plates and I may never use some of them, but I can if I need to - it is very difficult to install anything extra at a later date. As others have said, get expert advice. Don't rely on your electrician, as I have found that most house wiring sparkies shy away from learning anything new, and will try to talk you out of it. Visit the web sites of HPM ( http://www.hpm.com.au/ ), Clipsal 9 http://www.clipsal.com.au/ereh/index.htm ) and Hills 9 http://www.homeintegratedsystems.com ) to get some ideas.
While you're thinking wiring, don't scrimp on power sockets and lighting either. People building houses seem to do this to cut costs and it is virtually impossible to add stuff later. Make sure you have plenty of power sockets in every room, and two-way switching on lights where you want it. Cable is cheap. You can always use a cheaper paint or wall paper or carpet - these can be replaced when you can afford something better, but stuff inside the walls needs to be there at the start.

SKT174
14-06-2004, 12:09 PM
> While you're thinking wiring, don't scrimp on power
> sockets and lighting either. People building houses
> seem to do this to cut costs and it is virtually
> impossible to add stuff later. Make sure you have
> plenty of power sockets in every room, and two-way
> switching on lights where you want it.

Totally agreed on this one! What were they thinking? When I was flatting I was so annoyed that there's only ONE power point in the room ... and I have to used 5 multi power board to give me extra 25 sockets :D

I think there should be a power socket in every wall. Sometimes you want to change things around but can't because there is no power socket at the new location :(

Billy T
14-06-2004, 02:56 PM
> I am in a room with two others, when saw cat5 etc, I
> turned to them and asked if they knew what that
> meant, they didn't, I am not alone.

Cat 5 = Category 5, a grade of twisted pair telephone and data communications wiring. Four pairs per cable I think. Comes in UTP (unshielded twisted pair) or STP (shielded twisted pair) varieties. UTP is usually adequate for all but the most demanding applications.

Cat 5E = Enhanced Cat 5

I never heard of Cat 1 or 2, but it is not that long ago that Cat 3 or Cat 4 was the go. Now it is Cat 5E or Cat 6 as a minimum.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

antmannz
14-06-2004, 03:12 PM
Power sockets are exceptionally important. And you generally need more than just one per wall.
I would recommend a strip of 6 per corner. Additionally, make sure the sparky doesn't scrimp on "overload" switches (Can't remember the correct technical term). The last thing you want is to be watching a DVD / surfing the net / playing XBox / <insert any pastime that uses something electrical> and have the whole room go down, just because someone turned the heater on.

Invest in power sockets over and above all else, then network cable (Cat 6).

tweak\'e
14-06-2004, 04:12 PM
i'm not a fan of those 6 outlet wall plates (except for benchtops) as i find its far better to use powerboards exspecially ones with surge protectors built in.

don't forget the $$$ factor. installing $1000's of cable and wall plates that you will never ever use is a little pointless.

dipstick01
15-06-2004, 09:20 AM
One double socket per wall in main living areas and perhaps down to 2 double sockets for the bedrooms on opposite walls should be a good mix. Place Telephone sockets around also as they can be very handy in different spots. Aerial sockets in opposite sides of the lounge/dining room are also a good idea as quite often the "lady of the house" will decide to change the rooms around and then ya have a mad scramble running leads etc just to get everything running again.....and that is speaking from experience. Basically look at your living arrangements now and remember all the the places you would have liked power/phone etc. Now think practical and eliminate the ones you could have managed without and that will give you an idea on what you need. Different needs for different rooms.

Andrew B
15-06-2004, 12:25 PM
I have read all these replies with interest, and I wonder if putting all types of cables in the walls that you may or may not use in the future is very cost effective. I would prefer to ensure that lots of draw wires are left in the walls where there may possibly be a future need. Then if you do decide that another powerpoint/phonesocket/datasocket is needed, then pull the required cable through and install the socket. That way you can use the latest wiring product available, not some older cable that may not be of use in the future. Of course this idea only works if you have access to the attic space, and is even better with a wooden floored house that you can crawl under.

Winston001
15-06-2004, 01:21 PM
Andrew - that is smart thinking. The ethernet cabling in our office was dismissed as old and no good by the IT experts after 3 years. What hope can Tom have in an unknown future?

Actually that is fairly existential and Tom's hopes must remain shrouded in mystery :D

Young Tom
15-06-2004, 02:10 PM
Young Win,have no fear,I tend towards the pragmatic.The abstract and the existential mind set I will leave to you and those with that propensity.;)

Winston001
15-06-2004, 02:43 PM
Sort of off the subject but I hope you are planning solar and passive heating in this edifice.

From my own experience, double glazing is the very best option you can choose, even if you don't have other extras. Warm in winter, cool in summer, and the unexpected bonus of excellent noise insulation.

Young Tom
15-06-2004, 02:50 PM
Double glazing is a must,as you say also using xtra heavy bats.

Solar I think is still uneconomic,due for old age home in the next year or two you see!

Winston001
15-06-2004, 04:45 PM
I really meant passive solar design. Deep eaves, orientation to north, long (as opposed to wide) windows, tiled or similar floor to act as a heat sink. Celestory windows, a tall centre mass to draw air into the house interior. Not difficult to include but you would need a bit of expert guidance.

The Ministry of Energy published a very good (free) book about 10 years ago on passive solar design. Might be still available.

tbacon_nz
15-06-2004, 05:50 PM
We tried to do the passive solar thing when we built our house - see earlier post. Concrete floor for a heat sink, yada yada yada. Unfortunately what the architect failed to take into account was the line of mature trees at the side of the house that block most of the sunlight at the critical times of day! He realized about two days before the concrete was to be poured, and paid his own real money to put pipes under the concrete so we could get the heat that way if needed. Haven't needed it yet due to the good design of the rest of the house - but be warned. On the bright side, at least the trees also stop it getting too hot in summer.

Tony Bacon

Young Tom
17-06-2004, 02:08 PM
>>I really meant passive solar design.


Ah,yes I have got all of the above,but thanks for your very very valuable input.

outrider
17-06-2004, 05:49 PM
&gt;Don't rely on your
&gt; electrician, as I have found that most house wiring
&gt; sparkies shy away from learning anything new

sadly my friend (a sparked) talked my out of doing surround sound wiring in my house. then I won a home theatre and it is now almost impossible to wire up the speakers (due to the slant of my roof)

&gt; While you're thinking wiring, don't scrimp on power
&gt; sockets and lighting either. People building houses
&gt; seem to do this to cut costs and it is virtually
&gt; impossible to add stuff later. Make sure you have
&gt; plenty of power sockets in every room, and two-way
&gt; switching on lights where you want it. Cable is
&gt; cheap. You can always use a cheaper paint or wall
&gt; paper or carpet - these can be replaced when you can
&gt; afford something better, but stuff inside the walls
&gt; needs to be there at the start.

but my sparked friend did make me put in about 20 millon power points as well as remote control switches for my lights (these are good for when the other half wants to change the room around.It was fine as it was)

outrider :-)

Will Hunt
17-06-2004, 06:38 PM
If you want my advice, besides plenty of electrical sockets, tv jacks ect.


With regard to home theater and network, i'd just put a few holes in walls, AND BUILD WIRING GUTTERS. that way, you can just swap the cabeling around anytime u need to

antmannz
18-06-2004, 12:50 PM
I quite fancied the idea of using hinged skirting boards.

Unfortunately everyone thought I was nuts and the mrs wasn't too keen.

Winston001
18-06-2004, 02:37 PM
Now there is some lateral thinking!

godfather
18-06-2004, 03:07 PM
Skirting trunking has been around for 30 years or much more.

Making it look "normal" in a domestic scenario is the biggest challenge.

Keeping discrimination distances between mains power and comms cabling is not easy either. Not usually possible with acceptable sized trunking.

robsonde
18-06-2004, 03:40 PM
what would anyone think about putting in some fiber??

one run of fiber to each room??

all back to the patch board??

godfather
18-06-2004, 05:55 PM
Interfacing the fibre to commonly available appliances would be an expensive challenge.

Winston001
20-06-2004, 07:58 PM
Appropos of nothing, Tony's post reminded me, Monty Python did a lovely sketch for architects:

http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/architec.txt