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hamstar
02-04-2004, 09:50 PM
Look.

I don't want to turn this thread into another argument but I just want to know: Why will no-one converse about microsoft!?

What are they a sponsor here?

Have they got you all by the throats?

Have they threatened to make the latest release of IE boycott the pressf1 site if I don't shut up.

Why?!

The most popular OS? Sure, but do people like it? For some reason you just put up with the constant errors?

Best gaming console? Pchssshh!

What more could I want? My computer not to crash! Ever!

If you read those links I posted on the other site you will actually understand that they are not good at all.

There is not one good thing they have done for computers.
They are devious.
They are monopolistic.
They do not innovate.
They are not consumer minded.
Their software is full of holes.
None of their software is actually made by them.
They have used the same old unstable code for all of their programs/os's since day one.
XP is the most unreliable OS ever made because if all the bells and whistles they put on it.
Word is counter-productive.

And yet we all still use their POS software and OS's and put up with the crap that the lucky few who use linux would not.

-=[>>>>>>>WHY!?<<<<<<<]=-

Jim B
02-04-2004, 10:09 PM
Some people use Macs remember and so don't have to put up with the constant updates and patches, viruses, spyware and security problems.

Most people don't know any different than to use IE and OE and so defend the system that they know but there are many people on this forum who have moved to Linux and have also started to use alternative browsers and mail clients.

There is a slow but sure awakening but it will take time to build up momentum

tweak\'e
02-04-2004, 10:09 PM
well before this gets locked.....

why does everyone use MS ??

becuase everyone else does. mass market. its hard enough learning windows let alone another OS that none of your mates use.

also simply because it works well enough. dispite all the hassles/bugs etc it still works ok and most peole can point and click their way through it.

proberly the biggest reason why people use MS is simply they don't know any better. they use what they are given.

lack of good alternatives. untill recently linux was to geeky for most to even consider it. even i have crashed and killed a few linux installs. linux is not without its faults.

windows basicly gave customer what they wanted. for most customers sicurity, being bug free and stable is not high on their list. they are more than happy to trade bugs for features.

however with customer focus starting to turn more on sicurity and with more windows like linux distros comeing out, linux hopefully will start to give MS a run for their money

:)

robo
02-04-2004, 10:10 PM
Dude, not sure what you are trying to achieve, but get it off your chest.

Yes, they aren't perfect. Neither is any large company. I don't agree with petrol taxes but I still buy it. Xtra really piss me off but I told the woosh guy yesterday it just isn't worth the hassle.

Let it go, move on. Don't be sad when things crash, be grateful when they don't.

robo.

zqwerty
02-04-2004, 10:57 PM
Win2K Professional seems rock solid to me.

Rob.

Murray P
02-04-2004, 11:01 PM
I think debate is healthy as long as the tone is kept reasonable. I note robo's post has a certain air of, oh c**p just what we need right on the weekend, someone stirring up a whole heap of vitriol.

I happen to agree with much of what hamstar is saying and many more will do the same. I believe MS has over stepped the mark of what a constitutes a good corporate citizen. Unfortunately, I view much of what they now do and the products that they "produce" with a large dose of cynicysm. In the past they have done a great job of making computing accessible to the mass market, me being one of those, and made a bundle of well desevered money along the way. Their focus has now shifted to domination in every facet of what they do rather than it only be a marketing policy previously.

For myself their days are numbered. I ditched IE & OE about a year ago. Windows now shares my harddrives and cpu cycles with Linux with the intention that within a month or so my business will no longer be an outpost of Microsoft or it's ways. I can not afford to be worrying about the next patch, crash, corrupted word doc or trusted strategy from MS & it's cabal of willing and unwilling cohorts. The sary thing is they want my hardware as well.

I just wish they would give it a rest and work on being a good solid blue chip stock and leave world domination to Dubya and his playmates in the middle east (cripes this is turning into a rant :8}. hamstar what have you done ;) ).

I'm going to get out while the going is goodish with one last thought. They've been a driving force in desktop computing for so long and been so good for so many it's just a crying shame that they have lost sight of what and who helped get them there.

Cheers Murray P

Billy T
02-04-2004, 11:10 PM
> Look.
>
> I don't want to turn this thread into another
> argument but I just want to know: Why will no-one
> converse about microsoft!?

Because it is simply a pointless waste of time and effort winging hamstar. If you don't like them, pick an alternative OS or program source and use that instead, but bashing your gums about them is pointless.

MS have many more satisfied customers than they do complainers, so if you don't like them, just get over it and get on with life. You have too few years on this planet to burn yourself out with futile criticising and carping about something you can't change, especially here where your talents are better used helping people.

Go join the lucky few, PF1 supports Linux too.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

agent
02-04-2004, 11:11 PM
In ten years time Bill Gates will be the head of a new company building apartments in Florida.

So the reality is, we don't have anything to worry about, do we. America will understand what we went through with the leaky buildings.

:p

stu140103
02-04-2004, 11:15 PM
One other reason why your other thread got locked & this one as well, is because, in my option people are (on this forum, at lest) are getting sick & tired of reading on Press F1 how bad MS & how buggy MS windows is etc...etc.., & this is also most coming up as much as how bad telecom is!

It does not matter how much moaning on forums you make, it WILL take time before thing change

For example, some people are still using windows 95 or win NT for one reason or another, & one of the main reason why people don’t use newer stuff is some people don’t like change & they are happy with what they got & the other reason is some people like to wait (like me) to see what happen with new stuff, example, me running win me, instead of win xp (as I know there is issues with win xp at the moment, so that is why I am waiting in till way after win xp sp 2 is released before I think about upgrading(unless I need to upgrade sooner for one reason or another ) & one other reason why people use older stuff( & some times then we get issues with hackers/virus etc… etc… but I will not go there) & one finial reason why people still use old stuff is because in some cases newer stuff costs more money( which it seems people are getting less off now days).

I hope you guys/girls understand where I am coming from & I hope the above makes some sense.

Also like what robo said, if you are not happy with windows use another OS, instead of morning about it & making a flame thread, about how unhappy you are with windows.

whiskeytangofoxtrot
02-04-2004, 11:20 PM
> Xtra really piss me off but I told the woosh
> guy yesterday it just isn't worth the hassle.

Woah there.... Xtra over Woosh???

Now that's just crazy talk.

Murray P
02-04-2004, 11:56 PM
I think some of you are missing the point. You attack hamstar for making a point, an opinion yes but by the tone of you r responses you agree with at least some of what he/she says. You say he/she os whinging but, your own tone in saying this is just a reflection. you bemoan posts that get locked, well stay off the personal then for pity's sake.

Not everybody can sit back and view the world and let things ride. make allownences for different styles. If vanilla is what you like don't be afraid to ask for it at the counter but, don't critisise someone who questions why vanilla melts so easy and hokey pokey is not as easy to come by.

A small point. Lets say for arguements sake that hamstar (I'm sure its not true) does not have a clue how to set up let alone use alternatives to MS products. Telling him/her to go away and get over it is not very helpfull.

Debate is healthy. Abuse is not. Knowledge and enquiry is great, apathy and ingnorence is not.

Cheers Murray P

PS. Any of you voted for other than the 2 main political parties? Well.......

metla
02-04-2004, 11:59 PM
......is the world a better place yet?

Murray P
03-04-2004, 12:05 AM
Yep! Just happened ;)

Cheers Murray ;P

Murray P
03-04-2004, 12:12 AM
Hamstar. I just spotted your other work for tonight []) that's naughty.

Cheers Murray P

stu140103
03-04-2004, 12:21 AM
> Debate is healthy.

yeath, but it is not healthy when you Debate it over & over & over again & again.....

Murray P
03-04-2004, 01:02 AM
Don't join the debate then.

Cheers Murray P

Lohsing
03-04-2004, 02:02 AM
> Look.
>
> I don't want to turn this thread into another
> argument but I just want to know: Why will no-one
> converse about microsoft!?

There's a difference between talking openly about them and doing what you do in the other threads.

> Best gaming console? Pchssshh!

You obviously have no idea what you can do with an X-Box, but then again, ignorance is bliss, eh?

> What more could I want? My computer not to crash!
> Ever!

How about world peace while you're at it? Nice notion...

> There is not one good thing they have done for
> computers.
> They are devious.
> They are monopolistic.
> They do not innovate.
> They are not consumer minded.
> Their software is full of holes.
> None of their software is actually made by them.
> They have used the same old unstable code for all of
> their programs/os's since day one.
> XP is the most unreliable OS ever made because if all
> the bells and whistles they put on it.
> Word is counter-productive.

And yet people still buy their products... I guess I am yet to reach enlightenment, eh?

If you want to discuss morality issues, etc - there are worse companies out there than Microsoft.

Monsanto springs to mind, as does Shell in Nigeria. And yet funnily enough, we still buy petrol from Shell...

Lo.

PoWa
03-04-2004, 02:48 AM
> What are they a sponsor here?

Some of them are on the payrolls ;)
*hides*

People often moan about stuff like this because they lack the debating skills to even have a decent discussion. So they simply say 'lock the thread! lock it!', rather than making an effort to discuss the issues. Rather lame.

It would be good to debate it and if people could remain mature about it, I would find it rather interesting and entertaining.

dumdum
03-04-2004, 08:24 AM
I know a lot of people,like myself,who use windows simply because thats whats
installed on the computer when bought,therefore we get familiar with what we are using.Its only after getting a little proficient on our computers and start looking around, do we find out that there are other alternatives to be had.
I feel that Bill Gates did for the computer, what Henry Ford did for the motor car,
and that is, put it in reach of everybody.
Also, if it wasn't for MicroSoft, we probably wouldn't need forums such as PF1 etc.
where we can moan and groan about our computer problems and ask for help and give advice to others.
Thats my 2 cents worth.

DD.

somebody
03-04-2004, 08:50 AM
[Opinion start]

Think of it from a different perspective.

Microsoft are actually releasing service and security patches when they find out a fault. What about the security patches and updates etc. for Linux? Do people moan about installing them? Security holes in Apple - what if they simply haven't been discovered?

If it wasn't for Microsoft, most of us wouldn't have computers in our home or workplace. As a result, people wouldn't have the physical PCs to install Linux either. Microsoft's target is the average user, who in general isn't too concerned about 100% uptime, 100% stealthed security features. People who need such a system will use Unix or Linux based machine for that.

I have used Windows (3.11 thru XP) and have found Windows XP to have been very stable out of all Windows versions, following closely behind Win2k. I have used Apple computers before, and it's interface is just as fancy with the "bells and whistles". I have also seen a very new (and expensive) iMac crash several times, have ridiculously slow response times to simple tasks like opening a program. Linux: I have tried that too. Although I found it quite good, it's ease of use is nowhere near the level which Windows is at. Microsoft has provided a very easy to use OS, and software to use with it. That's what we pay them money for - an easy to use operating system and software.

Wordperfect and Microsoft Office have been at the forefront of Word Processing and office application software. Microsoft makes Office for Macs, and all the free/open source Office Suite clones aer based on Microsoft Office - Openoffice.org simply copies some of MS Office's features, while missing out on the newest ones put out by microsoft.

In my opinion, Microsoft has done the computing world a very great deed by making good quality, easy to use software, available at reasonable cost. It is the money they make from software sales which goes into research and development to make future versions of software even better and secure. Although we all get frustrated with computer crashes, system updates etc., it's just a small price to pay for an easy to use, beginner-proof operating system.
[/Opinion end]

robo
03-04-2004, 08:51 AM
Well, at least this hasn't got nasty yet.

Heres some points that may be considered vaguely relevant.

- Everyone is ultimately entitled to their own view.
- Ever since Winnt 3.51, I've been pretty happy with how solid it is. I know it's not perfect, but neither is Unix, and Unix is way harder to maintain (well it was in the old days when I was using SCO Sys V).
- The way some "engineers" install some things makes me wonder how they manage to get out of bed in the mornings. The best OS in the world installed badly will be shite. The worst installed well might actually be fine.
- Someone once said "You can't please all the people, all the time" (they obviously didn't know about Shortland Street when they said that).
- Sure, Millennium was ugly, but so was the Concerto and the Edsel.
- Microsoft don't write the viruses (at least, I don't think they do).
- They don't even write the anti-virus stuff.
- No other operating system has the market share that makes hacking and viruses so attractive.
- Microsoft tries to protect the reliability of their OS with security and big brother stuff that prevents us opening email attachments, and we don't like that.
- They can't stop users from installing shite software or too much software and turning a stable platform into an unstable one, and if they did, many of us would be pretty peeved.
- The dodgy software and idiot users out there do way more damage to their systems than Windows ever did.
- We are all free to stick with Office 97 and NT 4.0 or Win98 and never buy anything else, if we want to. We can also choose to use something completely different. Frankly, I've had pretty good value for money out of Office 97.
- If you feel better by ranting, go for it.
- If you don't agree with a rant, say so.
- If you do either in a reasoned, clever, humorous, well thought-out way, all the better.
- New, exotic insults involving vegetables and small furry animals don't really count.
- Let's just not attack each other about it (this thread seems pretty okay so far). We aren't in Ireland or the Middle East.

I mean, the soccer season starts today, why would we be anything but happy?
robo.

ilikelinux
03-04-2004, 09:00 AM
If you guys hate microsoft so much, why dont you switch to linux, or mac?

(As you can see i allready have.)
But i still have windows to play bf:v and bf1942.

My 0.00000001 cents (and if you round that down, it is free, :-P just like this forum)

agent
03-04-2004, 09:35 AM
Well, believe it or not, even with distributions like Ark Linux and Fedora, Linux still has quite a way to come before your average MS Windows user will be up to scratch to run it with the same competency as they currently run Windows.

Even given nice GUIs and helpful installation front-ends, Linux is not quite up there with Windows in terms of ease of use. The fact remains that 95% of people are pretty much trained to use Windows, simply because Windows had a lot of appeal back in the days (and frankly, it still does).


If you were really altruistic, you wouldn't just tell people to use Linux, you would teach them how to use Linux.

:D

Pibs
03-04-2004, 10:00 AM
Re M/soft when there is a better (simpler) system then I'm sure the masses will use it, my main gripe is why does M/Soft NEED so much of my personal info after I have purchased something, and when using their product keep getting pop-ups requesting that I report to them?
But apart from that isn't it a great thing to be free to rant in public should one so desire, and then all remain freinds afterwards? Perhaps a read of Stupid White Men by Michael Moore would open many eyes to the power of the rich in the good old USA.

Billy T
03-04-2004, 11:04 AM
> If you were really altruistic, you wouldn't just tell
> people to use Linux, you would teach them how to use
> Linux.


I'm glad you mentioned altruism agent, because a lot of people here may not know what it means, or how the leader of the MS Empire practises it.

For all the complaints about his company or its products, he nevetheless donates billions of dollars to worthy causes. Darth Vader he is not!

I am perfectly happy with MS products, have been for 10 years and don't see any reason to change. They are tools, I use them, they work for me and I earn good money using them. I have a life and could care less about the stream of complaints.

So they have flaws! If it wasn't for the warped minds and personalities that spend their personal years of darkness seeking them out and trying to to exploit them to the disadvantage and detriment of others, none of us would care very much or even be aware of them.

Computer programs require service about as often as my car, my teeth, my kids or my house and household appliances. So what, seriously faulty products kill people every day, but I'm not sure how many people Windows has killed, except perhaps for any sad individuals who may have popped their clogs in the middle of preparing yet another hysterical or vitriolic post to some computer forum or other.

Computers and their programming are not perfect, but then neither am I, and no creation of man (or man and woman :D) is or ever will be perfect. And nobody come at me with arguments about divine creation either, because those arguments and DC's purported products are about as flawed as you can get.

Perpetual complaining is pointless, action is the only proper response, and if people choose inaction by remaining with MS products because there is nothing better to change to, then hey, isn't that the end of the debate?

Move on to an alternative or stick with MS. Choose one or the other, but enough already of the perpetual carping and criticism.

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :D
Nothing like a Saturday morning rant to clear the
head after Friday night's dinner party with the rellies.:)

godfather
03-04-2004, 11:20 AM
I have been using (and making a living from using) computers since 1981

In that time I have used several non MS OS's. None were bug free.
As far as Windows goes, its been entirely satisfactory for me.

I wholeheatedly agree with Robo, that those unhappy with the performance of Windows and other MS products are likely the cause by unwise use of dodgy programs, loading to much junk etc.

If you need a reliable system to earn a living from, you run a well maintained non abused system and the reliability is very good.

If you treated your car like many treat their computers, every make of car would be unreliable as well.

I repeat the view above, that if you feel that strongly about MS, simply do not use their product.

I personally do not like asparagus, but I do not feel compelled to start a rant thread about how bad it is...

robo
03-04-2004, 02:05 PM
Billy!
Darth Vader was just misunderstood, deep down he wasn't a bad guy.
robo.

robo
03-04-2004, 02:07 PM
We should probably bear in mind what XP costs with a new machine (practically nothing) and what it does for us. As far as I am concerned, I get good value for money out of it.
Doesn't mean I will pay for upgrades or anything silly like that. But I can if I want. It's like being protestant versus catholic (don't go there, I can't believe I said that).
robo.

Murray P
03-04-2004, 02:36 PM
&gt; But I can if I want. It's like being
&gt; protestant versus catholic (don't go there, I can't
&gt; believe I said that).
&gt; robo.

Ah! But you did. What about all the other denominations and non denominations you have excluded, eh?

My main reasons for giving MS the heave (or trying to) are more based on ideology than anything else which, probably aren't the best reasons to base business decisions around. Other justifications can be given a higher profile to give it all plausibility, in my own mind at least. Being an recidivist fiddler, change gives hours and hours of pleasure and lots of opportunity of hours more pleasure for more knowledgeable types to pick up the pieces ;)

As you alude to robo, whatever spins your wheels will probably be best for you. Ford vs Holden may be a more discrete example though or how about Man U vs the Arse, does that one stay in safe territory?

Cheers Murray P

Graham L
03-04-2004, 03:17 PM
The fundamental reason for not "discussing" the merits of Microsoft here is that this isn't meant for religious arguments. It's a help forum for pople who have problems with using computers.

It has its social community side too, but "discussions" of MS vs Linux and similar emotive fact-free discussions always lead to tantrums, hurt feelings, personal abuse, and general unpleasantness. It becomes just like Parliament.

If you want to argue at length about what operating system is "best" go to the newsgroups. There are newsgroups set up just for this. They often have "advocacy" in the name.

Megaman
03-04-2004, 04:58 PM
I use xp. and i have absolutly no intention of switching to mac. What would i gain out of it? my computer hasn't crashed within the last year (no tihsllub), all the apps i use work just fine on xp, and i don't have money to change. I could change to linux, but with a winmodem? I don't think so. xp does what i want, and that's all i want it to do. simple. i'm not expecting it to discover a cure for cancer. Sure it's not perfect, but neither is apple or *nix. so hamstar. please, just get over the fact that nothing is perfect (except pcworld), and nothing ever will be.

Biggles
05-04-2004, 11:13 AM
Graham L has summed it upped better than I could. Please don't start this discussion again. That goes for any company. If you have a specific issue to discuss, by all means do so, but opening up a thread just to flame a company will only lead to counter flames and posts that run counter to our policy of keeping things friendly. If you had started a thread saying that you don't like XP and here is why, then that is a discussion. If you had started a thread saying you think the Xbox is inferior and here is why, then that is a discussion. But you started a thread with this:

>They are devious.
>They are monopolistic.
>They do not innovate.
>They are not consumer minded.
>Their software is full of holes.
>None of their software is actually made by them.

Which is extremely inflamatory. And that is why I locked the last thread, and that is why I'm locking this thread.