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Icarus
07-02-2004, 10:28 AM
Read this today: Sharman Networks, the creators of the Kazaa file sharing network, found their offices and homes raided today by Australian music industry "investigators", who also raided two Universities and several additional businesses. Sharman networks says the raids were a "a knee-jerk reaction by the recording industry to discredit" the company. -

More on: http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/38406

Rogerwilco
07-02-2004, 11:30 AM
Wow - I always thought that "raids" could only be carried out by duly authorised officers of the courts - i.e. warranted policepersons. Do these "inspectors" have special powers in Kiwiland?

P.s. I don't use KaZaa

Rogerwilco
07-02-2004, 11:31 AM
Sorry - for "inspectors" read "investigators"

mark.p
07-02-2004, 11:44 AM
But is the investigators actions legal?

PoWa
07-02-2004, 02:41 PM
> Do these "inspectors" have special powers in Kiwiland?

They might do one day. Time to buy some guns maybe.

csinclair83
07-02-2004, 04:08 PM
a bigger microwave wuld work...
chuck the hdd in there for 10 mins will definately cripple it and render it unreadable wont it?

i dont use kazaa i use shareaza...only to download addons for styles xp.....thats ok aint it?

godfather
07-02-2004, 05:13 PM
> a bigger microwave wuld work...
> chuck the hdd in there for 10 mins will definately
> cripple it and render it unreadable wont it?

Nope.
Its in a metal can.
The can exceeds a wavelength in size and will reflect most of the energy. Any absorbed energy will be absorbed by the outer case, and not the magnetic media. Eventually it may get hot enough, if the microwave isn't destroyed first.

There is a difference between magnetic waves needed to erase HDD material and microwaves. Many orders of magnatudes in frequency difference.

csinclair83
07-02-2004, 05:18 PM
ahh then movies arent helpful coz i watched a movie and this guy put a pile of cds in 1 microwave and a hdd in another (maybe he tweaked it) but yea...

godfather
07-02-2004, 05:54 PM
> ahh then movies arent helpful coz i watched a movie
> and this guy ...

I watched a movie where this guy was flying the Starship Enterprise, and thats turned out to be untrue as well. What a surprise.

You really should not believe everything in movies you know.

csinclair83
07-02-2004, 05:56 PM
i dont beleive in everything but when u see a normal microwave and a normal cd/hdd then yeah....u could even consider can it work if u really do it?

Odin
07-02-2004, 07:34 PM
"The group obtained what is dubbed an "Anton Pilar order" which allows copyright holders "to enter premises to search for and seize material that breaches copyright, without alerting the target through court proceedings.""

The excerp from the article above shows how they can enter without needing a warrant. Borland have a similar clause in their licencing aggrement (I read that in a PC World article). The clause allows them entry into your home without having to get a warrent or even let you know they are coming, they don't even need the police. In this instance they are far more powerful than the police and yes it applies here in New Zealand as well. Tthough if they tried it I'm sure they would find their offices burnt to the ground and their cars smashed up from the outrage that would surely follow, after all I thought WWII was where we got rid of the Nazi SS squads.

agent
07-02-2004, 08:21 PM
Incidentally, would this movie star the idiot guy from Roadtrip?

If so, could you please tell me the name of the film, I'd be slightly interested in seeing it.

csinclair83
07-02-2004, 08:35 PM
road trip....nope never heard of that flick *goes off searching for it*

the actor DJ Qualls yep...
hes in this movie and this is the movie i got the microwave idea from
The Core (http://www.thecoremovie.com)

agent
07-02-2004, 09:00 PM
Yes, I thought it might be that - I've got a short video clip of the scene where the FBI bust into his place of dwelling (linked to by someone here during one of those long-winded debates about securely erasing data, I think, around about the time of the CD drives-breaking-CDs thread).

But I just couldn't see how some scene about what appears to be a hacker could be related to The Core movie... drilling to the centre of the earth?!

csinclair83
07-02-2004, 09:06 PM
they didnt arrest him...what they did was use him to keep the aim of the team that was going to go into the core of earth...off the internet etc...so they used his expertise for good things...and in repayment he didnt ask for his convictions to be removed, he wanted a unlimited supply of food and magazines so i thought that was stupid...
then he hacked the net after the teams mission was successful and spread the good news..
so yeah...that was his part of the movie...

Mike
07-02-2004, 09:06 PM
> that in a PC World article). The clause allows them
> entry into your home without having to get a warrent
> or even let you know they are coming, they don't even
> need the police. In this instance they are far more
> powerful than the police and yes it applies here in
> New Zealand as well.

Uh, I don't think so!

I think the only people who have the kind of authority in NZ are the SIS and the IRD...

but I'm probably wrong :D

Mike.

csinclair83
07-02-2004, 09:10 PM
the only way anyone gonna get into my house is by me inviting them or having a warrant...i aint letting them in ne other way...

Odin
07-02-2004, 09:18 PM
By agreeing to the licence terms you are in fact giving them permission, thats how they get around the need for a warrant, Immoral Yep, but only way to stop it is to not buy their products :D

Winston001
07-02-2004, 10:14 PM
An Anton Pilar Order is an order of the Court in it's civil jurisdiction authorising a Plaintiff to seize property to prevent its destruction.
It is not uncommon in Commonwealth countries and stems from a House of Lords decision in about 1978 which first authorised this pre-emtive strike to preserve property. Anton Pilar was one of the parties to the case.

This has nothing to do with the Police, SIS, CIA, Gestapo or the Ku Klux Klan for that matter. It is where there is a civil argument between two people or companies. It is to do with people being sued. Nothing to do with crime or police.

When a person or business believes another person or business is doing something wrong and is concerned that the evidence will be destroyed before any case gets to court, the claimant (Plaintiff) asks a Judge for an Anton Pilar Order which authorises seizure of documents, computers, CDs -whatever might be at risk of destruction.

The Judge has to be convinced first, and if the Order is later found unjustified then the Defendant can get damages (money) awarded.

Nothing remarkable about this and completely normal in this modern age when a hard disc of embarrassing evidence can be wiped with a few minutes warning.

Imagine you did lots of overtime, all recorded on your employers computer which you don't have access to. Not paid out but building up nicely. Then you fall out with the boss. What overtime she says with sneer.

With a court order to get the computer without warning, the evidence out of your control is made safe.

Winston001
07-02-2004, 10:35 PM
A small clarification.

Anton Pillar has 2 'll's.

Strictly what I described is a Mareva Injunction (Mareva was the name of another case) This is the preservation order but doesn't authorise seizure.

The Anton Pillar order is much rarer because it permits the entering of property and seizure.

Cheers
Winston001

Mike
07-02-2004, 10:41 PM
> An Anton Pilar Order is an order of the Court in it's
> civil jurisdiction authorising a Plaintiff to seize
> property to prevent its destruction...

So basically it is a warrant of sorts. Therefore it doesn't give them any more powers than the police.

Mike.

metla
08-02-2004, 12:39 AM
I just watched the core,very cheesy flick.

They hired the computer whiz to create an "internet filter"

Also i only saw one microwave,he put cd's in that one,He also chucked something in the toaster and ran those heart starting doowhackies over the front of his computer cases.

Later on he rolled up some chewing gum liner,blew thru it and that somehow gave lifelong free international calls to the mobile phone he had in his hand.

LMAO.

Silly silly silly movie,It got far worse then just those examples but never mind.

It was watchable i think only due to the big screen tv and my supreme surround sound.

Growly
08-02-2004, 12:44 AM
> a bigger microwave wuld work...
> chuck the hdd in there for 10 mins will definately
> cripple it and render it unreadable wont it?
>
> i dont use kazaa i use shareaza...only to download
> addons for styles xp.....thats ok aint it?

Microwave? BAH! Personally, I either open them and start drawing on the disk platters with vivd, then twink, then finally i scratch them all, or you could chuck them out a very high window (and attach a disclaimer to it before you chuck it, cause i dunno bout the peopl down below)...

OR, you could make like PoWa and grab a few shotguns and er... let it feel the heat...

But so anyway, i ues kazaa lite, which does the same thing as kazaa, but from different people, and on the same network. Though i dont care, my the computers i use for downloading can be written off in moments, provided i see the swat team coming.

Laura
08-02-2004, 02:40 AM
Interesting post..
Watched this thread for info...
Lots of stuff (No more personal movie reviews. please) but no actual information...just speculation..
None the wiser than when I read the first news item myself.
I suggest the first person to be given notice they're being prosecuted because of KaZaa let's us know.
And anyone else with real new information about NZ KaZaa prosecutions does so.

PoWa
08-02-2004, 03:12 AM
>Also i only saw one microwave,he put cd's in that one,He also chucked something in the toaster and ran those heart starting doowhackies over the front of his computer cases.

>Later on he rolled up some chewing gum liner,blew thru it and that somehow gave lifelong free international calls to the mobile phone he had in his hand.

>LMAO.

Yer I thought it was hilarious too. I can't believe someone downloaded the clip I put up of it. You musta been the only one, lol. Anyway the cds went into the microwave, not a hard drive. He initiated a LLF on the hard drives with some random key combination, and then got some powerful magnet things and went over the front of his computer cases with them.

Laura
08-02-2004, 05:51 AM
As I said before ...KaZaa info, wasn't it?
So what that's news?

metla
08-02-2004, 10:33 AM
> >Also i only saw one microwave,he put cd's in that
> one,He also chucked something in the toaster and ran
> those heart starting doowhackies over the front of
> his computer cases.
>
> >Later on he rolled up some chewing gum liner,blew
> thru it and that somehow gave lifelong free
> international calls to the mobile phone he had in his
> hand.
>
> >LMAO.
>
> Yer I thought it was hilarious too. I can't believe
> someone downloaded the clip I put up of it. You musta
> been the only one, lol. Anyway the cds went into the
> microwave, not a hard drive. He initiated a LLF on
> the hard drives with some random key combination, and
> then got some powerful magnet things and went over
> the front of his computer cases with them.



uh....i rented the dvd....

agent
08-02-2004, 10:44 AM
Yeah, but I downloaded the clip :D

metla
08-02-2004, 11:02 AM
ah.....So i wasnt the one being talked to then.... :_|

whiskeytangofoxtrot
08-02-2004, 02:05 PM
> ahh then movies arent helpful coz i watched a movie
> and this guy put a pile of cds in 1 microwave and a
> hdd in another (maybe he tweaked it) but yea...

CD-R's go a treat in the Microwave. 3 seconds on high will sort a CD-R out, and if you do it with the lights off you get a pleasing blue-green flash just at the end.

Sorta like putting the old gold-rimmed dinnerware or a teaspoon in there.

3 secs on high will completely fragment the recording surface of a CD-R rendering it useless. I've done it many a time with no harm to the Microwave.

zqwerty
08-02-2004, 02:52 PM
If you want to kill a hard drive all you have to do is open it and allow normal unclean (particles floating ) air to get in. Further you can bend the disks and break the head arms. Run a powerful magnet over the surface should finish the job for all practical purposes.

CU Rob.

Graham L
08-02-2004, 03:02 PM
There's a good book: [i]Cryptonomicon[/b] by Neal Stephenson which has a lovely section about "them" trying to grab the emails on the hero's ISP's disks.

The hero is across the road, with his laptop, busily logging in (wrireless, of course) and trying to zap the disks contents. There is a mob of "libertarians" carrying weapons (USA) , and there's a van parked beside him. Suiddenly his laptop dies. The street lights go out. All the moving cars stop. The police radios go silent. Loud cheer from the van.

Hero gets off the roof of his car and looks into the van. "Is there something you guys would like to tell me?".

"Our EMP worked. It won't affect data on your computer disks, though."

"This is supposed to make me feel better?"

(EMP is the "ElectroMagnetic Pulse" effect caused by nuclear explosions ... and is why Russian military aircraft used valves in their radios).

Later it transpires that the computer room door had a coil built into the frame, so that any disk through the door would be wiped by the magnetic field. (That would need a considerable number of amp-turns to work --- and whether the power would still be on after the EMP, anyway ... but it's a novel :D)

Very good book ... a lot about cryptography in WW2 and up to now.

People are experimenting with EMP generators ... built out of microwave oven magnetrons. I thought of this idea in about 1978 as a step up from "speed detector detectors" -- it would be amusing to sail past watching the cop wondering why smoke was coming out of his detector. :D

PoWa
08-02-2004, 04:41 PM
> People are experimenting with EMP generators ... built out of microwave oven magnetrons. I thought of this idea in about 1978 as a step up from "speed detector detectors" -- it would be amusing to sail past watching the cop wondering why smoke was coming out of his detector.

Lmao! Hey Graham, do you think you could build me one? I pay you ;)

agent
08-02-2004, 05:55 PM
> do you think you could build me one?

www.totse.com -> look in the 'Bad Ideas' section, there you shall find the information you want.

taxboy4
08-02-2004, 07:59 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to simply buy a big axe and stoke up the fire....

Budda
09-02-2004, 11:30 AM
um while the magnet thing wont work, cause it is an dc field it will work if you can get a alternating magnetic field. And the part about whistling down the phone line used to work, "steve jobs" of apple and many others used to do this on land line phones "phone phreaking" just look it up on google. o btw this doesnt work anymore cause the phones dont work like this anymore.

zminos
09-02-2004, 02:45 PM
okay so anton pillar can be used without notice by the? bsa? for example and it allows them to walk into somones house that they "suspect" may be infringing on copywrite.

mmmm

am I right that they ( bsa for example ) would have to satisfy a judge first before application?

surley they would need proof for the judge, so the only real way of getting proof, is to get isps to provide the proof of who is downloading mp3s through some p2p.

otherwise the anton pillar order ( or whatever its called ) could be used as one big fishing expedition in general. Imagine MS using one? that could be used to give other companies ( like the riaa ) open season on anyone who uses a pc/mac/console etc.

who cares about civil liberties?

:)

argus
09-02-2004, 03:46 PM
These private-sector investigators did, unfortunately, have legal authorisation (at least according to the article cited) in the form of an "Anton Pillar order", which entitles them to search for infringing material.

Try Googling it (or whatever your favourite search engine is) and you'll see the background. Yes, there was an original Mr Pillar.

Such an order has been served at least once in the NZ computer industry, many years ago, allowing representatives of the "authorised" manufacturer onto the premises to seize hardware claimed to breach design copyrights.

This was in the days when "real" PCs were made by IBM and everything else of similar design was dismissed as a "clone". How long ago that seems.

Argus

Billy T
09-02-2004, 06:11 PM
> www.totse.com -> look in the 'Bad Ideas' section,
> there you shall find the information you want.


They are joking aren't they? Either that or conspiracy theorists are even thicker than I give them credit for.

Apart from heating things edible or drinkable, or perhaps exploding a rat if you happen to be a cruelty freak, microwave ovens have virtually zero nefarious uses. As for creating EMP via a domestic microwave, that's a joke, along with the idea that a microwave coulds explode spray cans!

Slow site, even slower brains. :^O

EMP requires nuclear levels of energy for a biggie, and merely astronomical levels of energy for laboratory sized effects.

Read the following article for a basic outline of theoretical requirments, but do read right to the very end for the credibility check!

If you are into maths, you might also like to check the correlation for the power supply input and output power levels. :|

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :|

Hi Rich!

RB> I would be interested in hearing more about the High Power
RB> Microwave (HPM) weapon system: how it works, power output,
RB> narrow or wide beam application, range, deployment status, etc.

The HPM demonstrator we built consisted of basically two sections.
A so-called Marx generator, which produces a very brief, very high
voltage, high current pulse, and a magnetron/antenna assembly, which
converts the pulse current into an intense burst of microwave energy
and then directs it towards a target.

The demonstrator was housed in a trailer which had its own 15 kW
Diesel generator, and they used to tow it out to the desert to test it.
The testing was done at the Cibola Range of the Yuma Proving
Ground near Yuma, Arizona.

A commercial 100 kV DC power supply was used to charge the
20-stage Marx, where it charged its capacitors in parallel, and
then via a series of spark gaps discharged them in series. With
the power supply set to 27 kV, the Marx would output a 265 kV,
3500 ampere, 21.4-nanosecond pulse. The spark gap array was
pressurized with air, and the air pressure was regulated so as to
control the point at which the Marx would fire. This allowed the
system to operate over a range of output power levels. One megawatt
was a typical pulse-power output, and with typical 50% magnetron
efficiency, a half-megawatt RF pulse could be achieved.

The negative-polarity output pulse from the Marx was coupled
to a rather large, cold-cathode magnetron tube equipped with a
superconducting magnet. The magnet was cooled to superconducting
temperatures by liquid helium, and the magnetron itself was
evacuated by a small vacuum pump. A specially-designed magnet
power supply (1 volt, 70 amperes) was used to energize the
magnet assembly. A waveguide couples the resulting microwave
energy (4.4 GHz) to a 10-foot diameter dish antenna, which
was mounted several feet above the trailer.

Precautions were necessary around the operating equipment
to protect personnel. Strong magnetic field, X-radiation from
the magnetron, and RF hazard from the antenna all had to be considered.
A zone of "denied occupancy" was set up in front of the antenna,
which was basically a 12-degree cone which extended some 800
meters out in front of the antenna. The most intense part of the
beam occupied a 6-degree angle, and in the center of the beam
at a range of 30.5 meters, 9.85 watts per sq cm was developed.

I never went out to the test range myself, but the guys who
did told me they used to set up electronic equipment downrange,
and try to destroy it. Apparently it worked great!
They mentioned personal computers, and LCD wristwatches,
amoungst other things. If they tested it on any military
electronics, I was not told specifically what type of equipment.
I did hear, however, that an Army land mine was detonated at a
distance of two miles.

I was told by one person who had been with the company a
long time, that there was a videotape floating around someplace
that showed a rat inside a waveguide with a clear window on
the side. The rat was then subject to ever-increasing HPM pulses,
which caused him to experience (apparently) great pain, and
then death. I do not know the power levels used in this
experiment, and I never heard anything about this particular
demonstrator being used on any humans or other
biological specimens.

The date of all this was 1987 to 1989. The company had
some old photos of other HPM and EMP simulation equipment,
which to me looked like they could have been taken in the 1960s.
In approximately 1990, the company built a two- man carried
portable HPM generator. One guy carried the Marx generator
(sulphur hexaflouride gas insulated), high voltage supply
(50 kV) and battery pack on his back, and the other carried the
magnetron tube and antenna. The two were connected together
by a high voltage coaxial cable. Apparently, this device was a
complete failure. It only produced a 300-watt output, probably
due to not having a strong enough magnet on the magnetron.
Since man-carrying a dewar full of liquid helium was out of the
question, they used barium- ferrite permanent magnets. I
remember them taking a photograph of it before turning it
over to the government sometime in 1990.

As far as current deployment status, I really do not know.
I do know that the Army was very pleased with the HPM
demonstrator (trailer-mounted version), but shortly after all
this, the HPM division of the company was sold to General
Atomics Corporation, the four guys and all the equipment
then being transferred there. Up to that point, it was obvious
that the HPM/EMP research had been going on for many years,
and it was very well funded. The huge screen rooms they had,
and all the state-of-the-art analysis and data logging equipment
was testimony to that. That Marx generator was truly a work of art!

RB> Also, I have been shown by a retired air Force Colonel a photo
RB> of an Electro-Magnetic Pulse weapon. Am also interested in power
RB> output, target types, range, and deployment status.
RB> I believe one was used near Eglin Air Force Base/Hurlburt
RB> Field USAF/CIA/Special Forces headquarters near Mary Esther, Florida
RB> Panhandle. What do you know about Florida and New Mexico sites
RB> specifically?

Earlier this year, I spoke to abductee Leah Haley on the phone.
She was very gracious in her information, and sent me a color
Xerox of an EMP weapon located on the beach at Eglin in Florida.
Maybe you've heard her story of how the alien spacecraft she was
in was shot down there on the beach by such a weapon. How she
and her alien (and human) captors were taken into custody by
military personnel. She sneaked back there on the beach at a
later time, and photographed the device. I have a couple of
.GIF images of it on my BBS at (619) 635-8685. They are
HALEY1.GIF and HALEY2.GIF in the misc image files area.
There's also a text file, HALEY1.TXT in the misc textfiles area,
which contains her story as related on Art Bell's radio program.
I would be curious as to whether or not it looks like the photo
you saw of such a device.

Winston001
09-02-2004, 06:21 PM
Good call Argus
As I recall, there was a business in Nelson about 7 years ago caught pirating Windows 95 (remember all the hoopla and the Rolling Stones music for the release?).

They were sued by Microsoft and offending CDs seized under an Anton Pillar order. Microsoft proved their claim successfully and the CDs were destroyed and the company/individual fined.

I don't think this was a Police action but if it was then it would have been a theft prosecution and a Search Warrant used.

agent
09-02-2004, 06:24 PM
Granted yes, there are some very slow brains and tall stories on that site (they mainly give laughs), but there are also a few very smart buggers dotted around the forums.

Winston001
09-02-2004, 06:36 PM
Well Zminos, I couldn't imagine the Broadcasting standards Authority wanting an Anton Pillar order unless they feared a broadcaster was going to destroy a tape or record which has been broadcast.

You are correct that the Plaintiff has to satisfy a Judge that there is urgency and a real prospect that evidence will be destroyed before the Judge will grant an order. Anton Pillar Orders are not common.

Much more common are Mareva injunctions which simply order a party (Defendant usually) to preserve property ie not sell, move, or destroy it until the court case is over. It has to be shown to the other party but at an agreed place and time - they can't just bust in.

You are bang on about fishing expeditions which is why Anton Pillar orders are not everyday matters and are refused by judges at times.

Who would apply? Split Enz maybe? More likely their recording company but they would need good evidence to get the right to enter your home and grab your hard-drive.

Trust this helps.
Cheers
Winston

PoWa
09-02-2004, 06:49 PM
I thought anything obtained from raiding a house without a warrant is inadmissable in court? Is this anton pillar order very much like a warrant?

zminos
09-02-2004, 08:37 PM
sorry uh for clarity I ment the BSA = Business Software Alliance

http://global.bsa.org/usa/about/members/

I do wonder though if anyone who has a copywrite can apply for a Anton Pillar or Mareva order? or does it have to be some kind of office representing government?

:)

Winston001
09-02-2004, 09:04 PM
Anyone believing there is a breach of copyright and the material may disappear can apply for these orders. Never mind copyright, anything in the way of documents or evidence can be frozen or grabbed. Nothing to do with Government although no reason why the Commerce Commission wouldn't do the same thing. They do not have Police powers.

And yes Powa, it is a sort of private search warrant but generally more restricted.