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View Full Version : OT: Lessons for Paul Holmes



agent
03-10-2003, 10:56 AM
1. When you insult someone, you stand down - read this Reuters article (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=entertainmentNews&storyID=3544908&src=eDialog/GetContent&section=news) for proof.

olldaddy76
03-10-2003, 11:23 AM
I listened to Paul Homes and laughed.. to me it was a superb example of satirical banter...... and have you noticed the PC evolution which will finally make us all so scared to speak out we may be suffocated and die? How dumbed down do you wish to be?

agent
03-10-2003, 11:33 AM
Ah, well...

There is a hell of a lot of corruption and injustice in society. You feel like complaining, but nothing will be done.

Like lawsuits against the tobacco industry.

Aspartame, a deadly toxin, in carbonated beverages.

The world revolves on, because all those sitting up high on mountains of money don't care about the rest of us.

Susan B
03-10-2003, 11:38 AM
I quite agree with you Agent, but I will be surprised if Holmes does step down unless a significant portion of the NZ public start calling for his head.

It is a bit rich really, because whenever any other prominent person steps out of line he is one of the first to drag them mercilessly over the coals.

His interviews in the future will be rather interesting. Now that he has a bit of egg stuck to his face he can hardly sit there and be the pot calling the kettle black (excuse the bad pun! :p :D).

veterannz
03-10-2003, 11:38 AM
Gone are the days when you could call a spade a spade. Now you have to call it a shovel in case someone complains to the Human Rights commission. Holmes just made a silly remark on the spur of the moment. If you listened to Holmes enough you would realise his tolerance can be at times intolerant !!
And anyway, I thought this was a computer forum

Lohsing
03-10-2003, 11:47 AM
> I listened to Paul Homes and laughed.. to me it was a
> superb example of satirical banter...... and have you
> noticed the PC evolution which will finally make us
> all so scared to speak out we may be suffocated and
> die? How dumbed down do you wish to be?

Calling someone a "cheeky darkie" on radio is irresponsible and unacceptable.

It's not a question of 'dumbing down' but more of common courtesy... I don't go round calling people 'cheeky darkies' because I'm 'scared to speak out' but because it's plain rude.

My mother taught me better than that.

Lo.

stu140103
03-10-2003, 11:56 AM
Why donít we all get over what Paul Holmes said on radio!!!

He said sorry on the radio & on the TV so we should put this behind us!!

Every one makes mistakes!!!!!!

Chris Randal
03-10-2003, 12:02 PM
Except that, IMHO, he doesn't say anything without thinking about it first.

metla
03-10-2003, 12:13 PM
if that was calling a spade a spade then the head of the United nations is indeed a cheeky darkie?

Somehow i don't think so,This would be like the UN labelling our PM a stupid honkey,their would be an uproar.

Holmes has to go.You can't dwell on the moral highground with comments like that,directed at people like that,no matter what context some want to take it in.

agent
03-10-2003, 12:14 PM
I'm beginning to wonder if anyone actually read that article on Reuters.

So Holmes apologised? Do we have any proof that he was sincere? Because really, you can't trust anyone.

This is a computer forum, but does that stop everyone else posting Off Topic threads? No, it doesn't. As with any forum, it turns into a community and no, we do not have to limit ourselves to computer related posts (or else life would be rather boring here).

The Holmes issue may be one of those in which people are divided, but in no way does calling someone a 'cheeky darkie' warrant support. If you called a workmate a 'cheeky darkie', you would most likely be fired. Worse should apply for doing this to someone you have not even met.

Yes, Holmes is the most experienced broadcaster in New Zealand, and IMO, if any other broadcaster were to have a debate with Holmes, where they were prepared and he wasn't, I think he would win. But it does not mean that he can make as many politically incorrect statements as he wishes to and can get away with it.

Budda
03-10-2003, 12:16 PM
Interesting how someone can say "cheeky darkie" and everyone is up in arms but when the NZ herald has "cheeky whitie" on the front page everyone one just has a laugh and no one complains to the human rights commission about that??

Just a thought.

Weezer
03-10-2003, 12:18 PM
whilst I don't partically like paul holmes , I do feel sorry for him ..
Yet no one gets uptight about Mike King calling people "Honkeys" on his sad atempt at a chat show. I can not differentiate between the two. NZ the land of Political Correctness gone MAD ..

agent
03-10-2003, 12:25 PM
> the NZ herald has "cheeky whitie" on the front page
> everyone one just has a laugh

Well actually, if you can find a copy of yesterdays Herald, if you look on A2, there is a box that states they received complaints about the use of the term 'cheeky whitey', and those complaints are being handled by the same authority handling the complaints against Paul Holmes' 'cheeky darkie' comments.

The Herald claims they were used in a satirical fashion, but Holmes could also claim he used the term in a satirical fashion.

Murray P
03-10-2003, 01:03 PM
Paul Holmes is neither the most experienced broadcaster, most talented interviewer or debater. He is probably the most highly paid. His technique and ego give me the creepers and he almost always gives rise to a feeling of embarrassment that this is supposed to be the premier broadcaster in NZ when I chance on his program (which is usually incidental).

I do not have a problem as such with people having ego's. In fact I believe it can be a good thing to have a slightly bigger ego than your abilities as it sets a bar you have to strive for but, having an overblown ego to cover for lack of talent and then put it forward as the be all and end all of public broadcasting suggests something lacking in these fair isles.

I guess you're getting my drift, sack him, twice.

Cheers Murray P

csinclair83
03-10-2003, 01:15 PM
i think paul is a great broadcaster but his weakness is speaking before he thinks...

and this makes me wonder..what happened to freedom of speech? i know what he said was wrong...but this whole issue is just out of proportion..like if i said it to a m8 around here..they would probably just laugh..or just say dont be rude and thats the end of it..
its only this big a issue coz hes a "public icon"

and he apologised..more than once....i think they should just chop his pay for 1 month..as if he'll miss it...and give it to UN charity..or 2 months even...and leave it at that..oh and give him a warning...happens again ur gone no questions...

just because hes a public icon doesnt mean he deserves 2 be fired or anything..hes still human like us...

Pheonix
03-10-2003, 01:36 PM
R.I.P tolerance.

Lohsing
03-10-2003, 01:42 PM
> and this makes me wonder..what happened to freedom of
> speech? i know what he said was wrong...but this
> whole issue is just out of proportion..like if i said
> it to a m8 around here..they would probably just
> laugh..or just say dont be rude and thats the end of
> it..
> its only this big a issue coz hes a "public icon"

But the problem is that he didn't say it to only a friend. He said it in a public forum broadcast to a national audience.

It's comments like these which get reported by the international media, which gets picked up by other people internationally, which in turn makes NZ look like a bigoted racist country.

Remember, it's the media who control what you read and watch. To sensational-ise the story, they will report that he called the head of the UN a cheeky darkie.

Lo.

tedheath
03-10-2003, 01:55 PM
Holmes shouldnt get fired. He is just saying what most White, European New Zealand born people are thinking.
If someone said something like white trash, or honkey its ok.
Holmes is a nice compassionate guy born in rural NZ we should be proud of him.

tedheath

Murray P
03-10-2003, 02:19 PM
>
> Holmes shouldnt get fired. He is just saying what
> most White, European New Zealand born people are
> thinking.
> If someone said something like white trash, or honkey
> its ok.
> Holmes is a nice compassionate guy born in rural NZ
> we should be proud of him.
>
> tedheath

I trust/hope that is tongue in cheek ted?

> i think paul is a great broadcaster but his weakness is speaking before

>he thinks...

Which is precisely one reason why he is not a great broadcaster. He has tabloid hack written all over him, he is devicive and sensationalist and lowest common denominator which, is why he works on talkback. Put him on the telley and he's a bumbling goof IMO. I try and avoid his show, but do admit to being caught sometimes by that baser part of my nature, when he is having a crack at something or someone (road crash).

He's gone too far this time though. It may have been a judgement error but, in his position judgement errors of that magnitude are/should be fatal.

If he doesn't do the honorable thing, and I'll gladly help him onto the chair ( he made the noose himself then put it on) then, sack him.

Cheers Murray P

oggy
03-10-2003, 03:27 PM
I'm not a Holmes fan at all but it's a shame that his description of Mr Annan overshadowed his reason for calling him a cheeky umm 'indigenous person'.
Mr Annan claimed that under the UN, the world had known peace for over 50 years...and Mr Holmes rattled of a long string of countries like Serbia, Rwanda, Korea whose people he said may disagree. What a cheeky umm 'General Secretary' indeed! Mr Holmes problem is that he is too passionate for his own good sometimes. Perhaps the message he tried to get out is what people should worry about rather than his momentary loss of good taste.

brewer
03-10-2003, 04:52 PM
There are plenty of other things to furrow your brow about--he`s not slapping young kids to death, he made a full apology, how many of you have never made a mistake or acted impetuously? I think his shows are crap and you rarely hear a coherent sentence ffrom him unless he`s in humble mode, but political correctness is too rampant round this issue.

WalOne
03-10-2003, 05:07 PM
I'm not a fan of Paul Holmes, and like some other contributors to F1, I avoid both his TV and Radio shows. I can't help think the current brouhaha contains more overreaction and PC'ness than his evil deed deserved. I think it was a good bit of satire, but not appropriate to broadcast given the demographics of his audience, the majority of whom would seem to sorely lack any sense of humour. This is humour that needs a keenly developed sense of the absurd to appreciate it, and by that definition does not include typical talkback or tabloid TV audiences.

Had the lines been delivered by for example John Cleese, there would have been little reaction, but Paul is not a John Cleese. Neither is he some evil, dastardly, darky basher, but "just a naughty little boy" (line from "Life of Brian") who needs to read his audience better.

Thomas
03-10-2003, 05:19 PM
Seems its time to take sides,I am on the side of anti pc and free speech.
May all you socialists go to Rusky land.

jastheace
03-10-2003, 05:20 PM
All i have to say is that we have all made mistakes, some very public and some very private, and who of us have wished that they could reverse what was said or done. I agree that PC has gone to far, next thing you know we will have to change the name of MAN trucks to Person so as not to offend anyone!!!

My two cents worth! :|

Graham L
03-10-2003, 05:43 PM
But it wasn't funny. It was personal abuse of someone who is a responsible person in a responsible position.

Anyway, nothing is funny when it is repeated four times in a rapid babble.
And then repeated again in case someone didn't get it.

It's more like "I am Paul Holmes, aren't I a clever little fellow.
Yes, I'm a clever little fellow. Such a clever little fellow. Oh yes, I'm a clever little fellow. ... " ad nauseum is the technical term.

TonyF
03-10-2003, 05:56 PM
I agree with Murray P and Graham L - the Holmes program is shallow and of no great merit - a creation of TV. It would not be missed. What he said was not a passing comment, but several organised sentences. Done it before and journalists do not seem surprised. He has reached his use-by date - vanish him !

( Anti-flaming software switched on ..)

csinclair83
03-10-2003, 06:31 PM
UPDATED NEWS ON PAUL HOLMES...

he put in his resignation today...for ther radio station job...but they rejected (newstalk) his resignation...and he has to go and write a personal apology letter to Kofi Annan (nothing was mentioned about meeting him but it was a idea brought up by the company a few days ago), and also meet up with the ghandain community or association....

so guess our wishes for him 2 resign was rejected by the company..


also please excuse my spelling..

Murray P
03-10-2003, 07:06 PM
> UPDATED NEWS ON PAUL HOLMES...
>
> he put in his resignation today...for ther radio
> station job...but they rejected (newstalk) his
> resignation...and he has to go and write a personal
> apology letter to Kofi Annan (nothing was mentioned
> about meeting him but it was a idea brought up by the
> company a few days ago), and also meet up with the
> ghandain community or association....
>
> so guess our wishes for him 2 resign was rejected by
> the company..
>
>
> also please excuse my spelling..


Spin, jackup. Its so transparent and insincere. It just compounds the insult in this sorry saga.

This issue, BTW, has nothing to do with free speech or being PC and everything to do with standards and what is acceptable behaviour to others and what is passed off as (a type of) journalism. Especially the type that tries to stir up some interest in a dull morning at the office and therefore the perceived need to keep the ratings up there well, that happened didn't it. Especially the type that draws a bead on a target that isn't shooting back and would not indignify their person to do so.

Paul Holmes took a calculated risk to stir his show along, probably, in the expectation that he was above reproach and untouchable.

I could rant on, and on, but others rant much better so, without further ado Sack Him

Cheers Murray P

vk_dre
03-10-2003, 07:35 PM
if i was Kofi Anan and i had heard wot Paul Holmes had said i would have not at all been impressed by such stupidity, and racist behaviour even tho it mite have been unintentional in its literal meaning. Comeon, Paul Holmes is meant to be a role-model as such people in high positions are, and this behaviour totally disgusted me. Remember the Aussies against Sri Lanka in Criket, Lehman commented with a racist remark to the sri lankans and he was subsequently fined and banned for a short period of time. i feel Paul Holmes should get some sort of punishment aswell, no matter how much he apologises, wot's said is said, and he must suffer the repurcussions of his actions.

sam m
03-10-2003, 08:57 PM
He should go

I do admire that fact he has been doing the job for a long time so he must appeal to many out there. I have never been a fan or even watched his programme (mainly because the boss likes the other channel, dont go there!) But as a darkie myself his comments have a more deeper context that cant be fully explained by mere words. People dont say these things without it being a racist thought somewhere at a conscious or unconscious level. It was a mistake but we all pay for our mistakes one way or another.

sam m

ps - tedheath, i think you may be going to hell! if you were joking then youŕe still going to hell

sam m
03-10-2003, 08:58 PM
oops

*subconscious not unconscious

agent
03-10-2003, 09:19 PM
Did anyone here see the Max Media comic featuring a pane about this issue, I think it was in last weekends Weekend Herald.

Somehow I'm reminded of that picture by parts of this thread...

Mike
03-10-2003, 10:12 PM
I know I should probably just keep my mouth shut but...

Good on him, I say. There's not enough satire in the media anymore, everything has to be taken seriously. And to everyone who has a problem with it, GET OVER IT!

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Mike.

Shortstop
03-10-2003, 10:33 PM
The line I liked best in this whole farce belonged to the Uni guy calling for Holmes' resignation. He was asked what he thought of Holmes' apology. Moment's pause then - " I believe he was genuinely moved by his own words"

Nuff said!

Holy Cow
03-10-2003, 10:58 PM
How can anyone take Holmes seriously - after seeing him driving the tractor a week or so back.
The guy is seriously touched!
Maybe his postate gland is in his brain

Waltzzz
04-10-2003, 04:44 AM
PC - as in 'politically correct' is a nasty bit of double talk that has taken on and done the world no good. Of course it is better to be non-racist, non-sexist, non-violent. What a strange thing it is that people get labeled as PC in a derogatory way for having some values in world that needs them.

Racism is not a symmetrical thing. One culture has colonised and dominated another. We are in a historically unusual situation of doing an OK job of repairing that in New Zealand. Holmes knocks that in many ways, not only with his racist humour about Kofi Annan, but also with the other comments he is being caught out on abour New Zealand situation.

We do not need this racist humour in NZ.

agent
04-10-2003, 08:19 AM
> We do not need this racist humour in NZ

Exactly. You might have seen that the Herald reported (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/storydisplay.cfm?storyID=3526611&thesection=news&thesubsection=general) that Holmes' television program breached broadcasting standards in a report about Maori land issues.

If you read the article, you will find that Holmes himself changed the part of the program which was inflamatory. Therefore Holmes is not just racist against Annan, but also Maori, and I'm sure that if you see any sense, you don't need this to prove that.

-=JM=-
04-10-2003, 11:46 AM
You're not racist if you hassle them all ;)

PoWa
04-10-2003, 01:55 PM
> "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone".

Yep exactly. Look if they are going to clean up one aspect of television, they can clean the whole lot up.

You can hardly point the finger at Paul Homes for one quick comment. Heck our country even allows prostitutes now -which is a far worse offense IMHO.

tedheath
04-10-2003, 03:08 PM
You can hardly point the finger at Paul Homes for one quick comment. Heck our country even allows prostitutes now -which is a far worse offense IMHO.


What is wrong with prostitutes? It has never been illegal here anyway only soliciting was illegal.

tedheath

Thomas
04-10-2003, 03:16 PM
[Ad: argos]

.


What is 'Political Correctness'? It is the inane but dangerous thought and speech code that threatens the free speech and intellectual curiosity of so many minds.
Who started 'Political Correctness'? Oddly enough, professors motivated by the credo that "all things are relative."

The original and current purveyors of 'Political Correctness' not only say there is no Truth (with a capital T). They go as far as saying there are no truths. There are, they argue, no "correct" answers, just different ones. They celebrate difference rather than individual pursuits of excellence.

somebody
04-10-2003, 05:02 PM
What you haven't realised is that Holmes isn't representing what most White, European NZ people are thinking. There are many many "white" NZers, as well as ones of international descent who are appauled at what he has said, and that he should be fired, or step down.

He is allowed to have his own opinion, but that opinion shouldn't be directed a race of people. If he said something like that at a party or something, then fine, that's his opinion, and he's telling it to people who may or may not care. Using his job to spread his opinion is not the right thing to do. His job is to present a morning radio show, not to attack people based on their race.

If he is representing what most "white" NZers are thinking(as you claim), then NZ has even more to be worried about. It's giving NZ a racist image. I am certain that most NZers, either "white" or "non-white" would not go around calling abusing someone who has worked hard to lead a top international organisation, especially using racial remarks. This bad image has immediately affected the Holmes TV show, with Mitsubishi (an international company) pulling out of sponsorship because of the bad image Paul Homes could create for them. I'm sure in the near future, some countries would think twice about buying our export goods, as buying from a country with such an image could hurt their reputation. I have lived in NZ all my life, and have seen very little racisim among the public. In fact, many many "white" Nzers who I've met are very opposed to racism - they would be opposed to someone like Holmes making such comments.

somebody
04-10-2003, 05:05 PM
Well the NZ Herald would not receive as much criticism, as they are taking a dig at Paul Holmes comment.

somebody
04-10-2003, 05:09 PM
Paul Holmes has taken a good step at offering to be punished for what he's done. As a "responsible broadcaster", Newstalk ZB should accept his resignation, and move on. They will keep a majority of NZ happy, and show themselves as a good responsible NZ broadcaster who is willing to do what is right. Rejecting his resignation is diging themselves a deeper hole.

somebody
04-10-2003, 05:13 PM
Nobody is saying that free speech should not be allowed. Free speech however does not include making racist remarks on a national broadcast radio station. Paul Homes is allowed free speech - he can say that Kofi Annan isn't doing his job well - but he shouldn't be generalising the entire Ghandan race as "cheeky".

vk_dre
04-10-2003, 05:15 PM
> What is wrong with prostitutes?

Hmmm, i wonder, wot is wrong with prostitutes? I dunno bout u guys but hoes r for those that are desperate for some action, they should be banned, its just not rite, we should promote a "Clean" environment one without all these "dirty" things. :D

nickitwo
04-10-2003, 10:50 PM
How does Paul take his kofi? dark or light?

vk_dre
04-10-2003, 11:14 PM
> How does Paul take his kofi? dark or light?

Yo, that wasnt funny bro, it seemed kinda stupid and pathetic, even if it was a play on words.

tedheath
04-10-2003, 11:34 PM
Yo, that wasnt funny bro, it seemed kinda stupid and pathetic, even if it was a play on words.


If you cant take a joke vkdr how about you leave NZ and go to some dreary place like Albania.
It is very common for white european new zealand born people to joke about all manners of things if you dont like it please leave.

tedheath

somebody
05-10-2003, 08:35 AM
"to joke about all manners of things" means doing it around friends, families, or people who share the same views. As you can see from a majority of the above posts, people (of many different race, genders, and religions) are opposed to such "jokes". Therefore it is unsuitable for those sort of "jokes" on this public forum, especially since it is obvious that people are against potentially offending racist comments.

Biggles
05-10-2003, 12:07 PM
>If you cant take a joke vkdr how about you leave NZ and go to some dreary place like Albania.
>It is very common for white european new zealand born people to joke about all manners of things if you dont like it please leave.

>tedheath


I suggest you
1] Stop acting like you know what the majority of "white" New Zealanders think
2] Stop insulting other PressF1 users. You've got no rights in this forum to ask anyone to leave (this forum or this country)

Thread locked.