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Baldy
29-01-2003, 04:48 PM
For those who have been using Linux for a wee while now, what does Linux do, that Windows can't.

And in what way is one better / worse than the other?

BALDY:-)

nz_liam
29-01-2003, 05:02 PM
What does windows do that Linux doesn’t you ask. Well quite simply "it works".

Every day I turn on my pc I have NO guarantee that windows will boot, however Linux boots every time, put simply “it’s reliable unlike its Redmond competitor”.

In-fact I’ve had to use Linux 4 times now to rescue my “windows” data when windows has had fatal errors and conked out.


Cheers

Liam.

Graham L
29-01-2003, 05:09 PM
There are a couple of widely used OSs. There are a number of less popular ones.

There is NO BLOODY POINT in threads about which is best.

That is not the purpose of this site. Such threads cause otherwise reasonable people to behave like very badly brought up children.

If you want to play such games, look at the "advocacy" news groups. But please don't do it here.

BIFF
29-01-2003, 05:29 PM
> Such threads
> cause otherwise reasonable people to behave like
> very badly brought up children.

Has Graham L been bad? Bad children need a good spanking!

Dolby Digital
29-01-2003, 05:48 PM
Graham, have you had a hard day... :D

Nothing like a bit of healthy debate especially when it degrades into a flame war between the different camps.

Of course we are above that :D

Dolby Digital
29-01-2003, 06:00 PM
I like Linux cos I can change Windows Managers... some days Gnome and sometimes KDE (although I prefer Gnome).

I like Windows cos most hardware you bolt on have device drivers for it (although I have to say that my Digital Camera only supports Win98).

I like my Nissan Primera cos it has a cam chain, not a cam belt (oops sorry, got carried away)

-=JM=-
29-01-2003, 06:01 PM
There are some things that it may do better. There are others that it may not.

There is no BEST operating system just some people have preference to one OS as opposed to another OS.

segfault
29-01-2003, 06:47 PM
I'm not going to tell you why GNU/Linux is better than Windows because I've seen threads like this one turn into flames quite quickly. But I'll tell you why *I* like GNU/Linux. (These are all IMO so not flames please)

- It works
- Its free (As in beer and speech) and so no licensing fees
- I can view the code
- Bugfixes are quickly released
- Less bugs/vulnerabilities (Again IMO)
- Better choice of software
- Lots of development going on (I can volunteer with projects)
- I can customise it to my liking (eg, patch the kernel source with certain patches and then compile my own kernel)
- Different desktop environment and/or window manager choices

I'm sure there are many more but I'll stop there.

Baldy
29-01-2003, 07:27 PM
> There are a couple of widely used OSs. There are a
> number of less popular ones.
>
> There is NO BLOODY POINT in threads about which is
> best.
>
> That is not the purpose of this site. Such threads
> cause otherwise reasonable people to behave like
> very badly brought up children.
>
> If you want to play such games, look at the
> "advocacy" news groups. But please don't do it
> here.

Sheeesh Graham. Playing games?

I thought it was a perfectly reasonable question. Sorry that I have riled you up.

BALDY

-=JM=-
29-01-2003, 08:41 PM
I feel that Graham's comment was a very fair and valid one. I've yet to see a discussion about which is best NOT turn into a flame war.

It's the same with "AMD vs Intel" and "Nvidia vs ATI".

Baldy
29-01-2003, 09:07 PM
> I feel that Graham's comment was a very fair and
> valid one. I've yet to see a discussion about which
> is best NOT turn into a flame war.
>
> It's the same with "AMD vs Intel" and "Nvidia vs
> ATI".

I didn't say BEST, I said BETTER. Theres a subtle difference.

I wasn't trying to start a flame war, I was trying to evaluate one OS against another. Never mind, I will try somewhere else.

Thanks anyway guys

Chilling_Silence
29-01-2003, 09:12 PM
Its diffent strokes for different folks man, each to his own, and Im with Graham L.

Im happy to discuss the finer points, but for the time being, Im hoping that it'll stay a low-level discussion that doesnt turn out like the one between Crozier, Lo. and Roofus...

Personally, I use Windows 98, 2K, and XP (Yes.. Got a copy today, Its not too bad.. Speed is major over 2K coz Im on an Athlon XP Proccessor), Lycoris, RedHat, and Im wanting to try out Yoper and Mandrake soon... Quite a good balance.

If you're interested in Linux, I made a post earlier today, have a look...

Otherwise.. I'll be watching this thread with interest, and hoping that it doesnt turn out to be a flame war!

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Chilling_Silence
29-01-2003, 09:16 PM
> I wasn't trying to start a flame war, I was trying to
> evaluate one OS against another. Never mind, I will
> try somewhere else.
>

Yes, I understand.. But the thing is that there are some very territorial people around here who might take this thread as a "Lets convert the world to Linux" thread, and wont like it.

Each certainly have their own strong points, the main ones being:
Windows has MAJOR compatibility with pretty much everything being able to run on the OS.
Linux has that ever-so-friendly price tag of $Free!!!
Linux is more customisable, therefore great for servers etc. being able to prevent certain proccesses from loading altogether!
.NET is Fast.. VERY fast in my experience! Probably about 2x as fast as XP is on my AMD Athlon XP 1700+, and faster than RedHat too!!!

it all depends what you're after... If you're wanting to dive into the world of linux, it is a Very, VERY rewarding experience, knowing that you're hosting a Website from your laptop or whatever.. :D

I am still happy to comment, but maybe tomorrow :-)

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Clueless
29-01-2003, 09:52 PM
For a gateway, or a webserver... Linux, simply because Linux goes and goes and goes like the everready battery.....

For an end user machine you might be better of with 'doze, as it may be better that you have the devil you know. there is still a couple of things i find i can only do in doze :( . Having said that, when i am home in 75% Linux.

.Clueless

E.ric
30-01-2003, 06:12 AM
> now, what does Linux do, that Windows can't.
>
> And in what way is one better / worse than the
> other?
>
> BALDY:-)


Linux can not give you the "fatal exception errors" sorry to play the harp again, and I have not needed to give the computer a "hot headed switch off"

One of the biggest problems is when getting into Linux is, The information is
there to help you on the way, but where is it?, meaning it does not seem to be well indexed to find easy, There also seems to be a horrible group of people in linux that cheese you off when you already frustrated getting started, they seem to use the logic "I got into linux all right, so if you have a problem you must be a moron" Something I did not find when I was getting into windows and asked questions.

Sorry I have not answered you question 100% but I hope it does some good.

roofus
30-01-2003, 08:54 AM
WOW Graham, that was out of the blue, especially when you posted in a recent thread about the bad language in this forum, that comment which was delicately written (because you put it in bold) is way worse than some of the other comments made around here.

I think the thread is a fair debatable issue.
One just has to remember that you shouldn't try to force there opinion upon others. Crozier knows all about this!.
I think Chilling or clueless like to try and convince everyone that some OS was better than the other, but since a wee while ago when it was pointed out that there were different strokes for different folks, there hasn't been a problem.
So let the discussion role, just don't try and justify why one is far superior to the other.

My Opinion:
Windows runs millions of applications, which means there are many solutions to your problems.
Linux yes it's stable (but in my past experience wasn't "THAT" stable) but there are no killer app's that makes you want to swap.

Chilling_Silence
30-01-2003, 09:30 AM
> One of the biggest problems is when getting into
> Linux is, The information is
> there to help you on the way, but where is it?,
> meaning it does not seem to be well indexed to find
> easy, There also seems to be a horrible group of
> people in linux that cheese you off when you already
> frustrated getting started, they seem to use the
> logic "I got into linux all right, so if you have a
> problem you must be a moron" Something I did not find
> when I was getting into windows and asked questions.
>

I know the feeling... I had major troubles with getting SAMBA going.. Took me ages, and I tried this message board and one or two others and they all said "Follow your nose" and stuff like that which wasnt terribly helpful.

I was hoping for something step-by-step like:

To make a new share, start off with:
[ShareNameHere]

Then underneath, try these:
comment = Comment of the share
path = /tmp
public = yes
read only = no

and make sure that you set the 'Share level = share' or if its user or server or anything, you'll run into more troubles.

However, something useful:
Open a Konsole window and type man smb or the likes...

You are right though, I wish the above had been said to me in the first place, and about 4 message boards all said "If you cant do it then you shouldnt be dabbling with Linux" which is not the sort of welcome a n00b wants really!

However, should you find a freindly person who is very knowledgable, you'll find they'll be more than happy to teach you!

I began writing a comparison on the bus today.. Gotta love mobilty computing.. but I wont put it up.. Its not really that great, but I'l see about maybe tonight :-)

From what perspective are you wanting this baldy?

Personally, the majority of servers should be Linux IMHO, coz Clueless was right, its like the Eveready batteries!

Desktops are a little different, which is why I liked Lycoris!

The thing is there's so many flavors of both OS's!!!!

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

fat & bald
04-02-2003, 09:50 PM
>One just has to remember that you shouldn't try to force there opinion upon others. Crozier knows all about this!.

You know roofus, you really are an ignorant little sod aren't you. Not only did you and your cronies drive the bloke away but you insist on continuing after he's gone, when he's not here to defend himself - real mature eh?

Let it drop sonny!

segfault
04-02-2003, 10:08 PM
> You know roofus, you really are an ignorant little
> sod aren't you. Not only did you and your cronies
> drive the bloke away but you insist on continuing
> after he's gone, when he's not here to defend himself
> - real mature eh?
>
> Let it drop sonny!

What a great example of what not to post in this forum.

Elephant
04-02-2003, 10:46 PM
Sigh.....

Looks like Graham L was right when he/she ( to be VERY politically correct ) said:-

"There is NO ** POINT in threads about which is best.
That is not the purpose of this site. Such threads cause otherwise reasonable people to behave like very badly brought up children.
If you want to play such games, look at the "advocacy" news groups. But please don't do it here."

I've got to admit that I have seen heaps of these threads and they usually degenerate into something nasty.

Horses Hoof
04-02-2003, 11:06 PM
> Sigh.....
>
> Looks like Graham L was right when he/she ( to be
> VERY politically correct ) said:-
>
> "There is NO ** POINT in threads about which is
> best.
> That is not the purpose of this site. Such threads
> cause otherwise reasonable people to behave like very
> badly brought up children.
> If you want to play such games, look at the
> "advocacy" news groups. But please don't do it
> here."
>
> I've got to admit that I have seen heaps of these
> threads and they usually degenerate into something
> nasty.

Yeah, yeah......... Graham was having a go at Baldy for starting a thread that could have turned into a flame war. And what is the purpose of this forum Elephant? Nobody poked the borax at the person who started the "What is the BEST isp thread"

Clueless
04-02-2003, 11:14 PM
I was hoping that this wouldn't degenerate.

Lets just look at where Linux is best used, and where 'doze is best used.
Let us also remember that we all will talk from the biased point of veiw of our personal experiences.

Those wishing to keep it on the level of insults, be they fresh, or recycled, feel free to exchange emails or something, and perhaps send each other nasty little death threats or something, but PLEASE dont bring it into this thread which has the great potentual to discuss an area that many people are quite confused and curious about.

This reminds me just too much of the Holden Vs Ford squabbling that made it rather difficult to assertain what was better about each vehicle.

.Clueless

Elephant
05-02-2003, 12:11 AM
Windows V Linux.
Ford V Holden.
Model A V Rolls Royce.
National V Labour.
Christian V Muslim.
Intel V AMD

My best answer for ALL of these is, "Whatever works for YOU!!!"

Because I go and buy a AMD CPU it doesn't mean that I think everyone else has to.

I'm not young by any stretch of the imagination but I STILL remember advice from my parents. If "Fred Nurk" ( substitute any name here ) jumped off the cliff would you do it too?

Elephant
05-02-2003, 12:31 AM
The other point I should mention is that if you already have a considerable investment in software that runs under Windows ( both Financial and in learning the package ) then it's probably best to keep doing what works.

Just how many people here run Linux EXCLUSIVELY? NO Windows?
I have tried Linux myself but not without my training wheels.

Reminds me of a Guy who used to have an IBM Compatible machine and was really into Flight Sims. Running Win 98SE and M/S Flight Sim 98.
He sold this Computer as he was off to Malaysia for a job. He came back via the USA and was talked into buying a Mac while he was there.

Surprise. Flight Sim 98 didn't want to work on his Mac even under an emulator.

The other thing I could mention is that for the average person shopping for software isn't likely to find on the outside of the box that the software will run under Linux either.

fat & bald
05-02-2003, 07:23 AM
>What a great example of what not to post in this forum.

Thank you, I try to please :D

segfault
05-02-2003, 07:28 AM
> Just how many people here run Linux EXCLUSIVELY? NO
> Windows?

Me :)

Chilling_Silence
05-02-2003, 09:20 AM
> My best answer for ALL of these is, "Whatever works
> for YOU!!!"
>
> Because I go and buy a AMD CPU it doesn't mean that I
> think everyone else has to.

Ah, Good point. I like AMD too.. But that's coz it costs less, and they are also more optimised for WinXP (Hence the XP on the end...).

P4's are great, but if I had a box I was gonna do video encoding and hard-core processing calculation-requiring-stuff... then I'd want P4, as they cartainly seem to have the edge there :-)

I use a mix of:
Win98
Win2K
WinXP
Lycoris Desktop/LX
RedHat 8 (Psyche)
Windows .NET Server rc2

Now, Who wants to convert their copy of XP to .NET???? I wouldnt... Ya wanna know why?

Coz its a server!
For joe bloggs who's just bought a new PC and is freaked out by the idea that he might be on the internet in an hours time fromhis house, Having .NET is gonna be pretty useless!
Can you guess why??
Coz Joe Bloggs is not gonna be running a web/ftp server from it! He needs something that is dead basic and easy to navigate, and easy to get him where he wants, which to start with will likely be Word, IE, and solitare ;-)

Then again, Who'd wanna run a FTP server from Win98 when you can use .Net server (Even though Linux does the same trick for free ;-)).

I like all of those OS's (Except 98.. Too old and ugly!) and they all have different strengths and weaknesses.

When I finally get around to installing Wine-X, then I'll let you all know how well doze 3D games run under Linux too... :-)

Anyways, that's my 2 cents worth for the morning :D

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Chilling_Silence
05-02-2003, 09:24 AM
> > Just how many people here run Linux EXCLUSIVELY?
> NO
> > Windows?
>
> Me :)

Chilling_Silence
05-02-2003, 09:25 AM
AYE?!?! WTF??? What happened there???? I didnt post that??

Clueless
05-02-2003, 09:56 AM
>Just how many people here run Linux EXCLUSIVELY?

well Sam is an exclusive Linux box, as said above. this is so i can learn Linux in my spare time. There is very little it doesn't do, and i keep finding ways around that.

.Clueless

higbvuyb17
06-02-2003, 12:02 AM
> For those who have been using Linux for a wee while
> now, what does Linux do, that Windows can't.
What does Windows do, thet Linux can't?
There's no saying which one is the best. Each has it's pros and cons. it's like:
Desktop brand X VS Desktop brand Y. Newspaper X VS Newspaper Y. A Tree VS An Oak tree. Pen VS Pencil.

Just get the OS(es) you want.

Chilling_Silence
06-02-2003, 08:32 AM
> A Tree VS An Oak tree.

Err... Where do bushes and shrubs come into it??


;-) :D

Clueless
06-02-2003, 08:44 AM
i thought i'd move this to the right thread now that it belongs to the non squabbling sensible party :p

I run '98 and SuSE on 2 almost identical machines.
Both machines are 450meg AMD on a VA503 motherboard with 256meg of RAM. Both have really minamal graphics cards.
Vanessa (98) has a Zip drive, a CDRW, a 20gig HDD, and a 40 gig HDD and one network card
Sam (SuSE) has an 80gig HDD, Sam also has the worlds worst graphics card, and 2 network cards.
My network runs like this:
Cable modem-----Sam----Hub----Vanessa.

Observations:
1/Reliability/Stabilit y
Sam just goes, and goes and goes. I would recomend Linux for ANY machine that is going to be used as a gateway, or for a central storage point that might be used over a network, be it a shared "drive" a webserver, ftp server or the such like. It is extreemly stable. Vanessa on the other hand has a tendancy to freeze and/or give me a BSOD if i leave it running 24/7.

2/Compatibility with "programs"
Well i cant run photoshop on Linux, but i am learning "GIMP" which actually does most of what i use image manipulation programs for. Games tend to be windows orientated. As i am not a gamer this doesn't bother me. I have sufficiant programmes in Linux to make it that Sam is the machine i use 80% of the time.

3/Ease of conversion.
I chose the name "Clueless" when i reached into Linux world. I think that says it all, I still have a L-O-N-G way to go. Having said that 80% linux shows that it wasn't that hard so far. I look forward to moving the CDRW, and comparing the Linux programmes with Nero. This will make me about 90% Linux


4/Slickness
Comparing SuSE to 98 it has far more eyecandy (which is what it calls it)
Eye candy is comparible to any recent windows system, including XP, but can be toned down for people like me running it on a slug. As i am reluctant to do this, i watch the machine fail to bring everything on screen at good speed. This is probably a relection on the machine, but i mention it anyway. By default slickness aint that grand, but we can play with the colors, the preveiw modes, the pick of icons, the wallpaper, all that good stuff, and make it as slick as we see fit. It also has a wee slide control in the settings for KDE (the graphics user interface i use) that decides what priority to give slickness, so that i can ensure that its not going to be spitting dummys on esentuals just to give me a slick screen.

5/Built in browser
Konqueror is built into SuSE (and probably most distributions)
It is the only browser that fully works with chatf1 which does not have good software server side. IE cannot remember my choice of color, but konquorer can. Java tricks etc with konquorer don't always work, but on the other hand it doesnt want to "debug" all the time either.
My better half put together this site: http://answer42.orcon.net.nz which was her playing with java and such like.. Great tricks but konqueror wont display it all. On the other hand IE wont handle <color=null> which is a great tag used by this forum to randomise the colors of titles.

6/ Trust
.net microsofts latest toy has "trusted files", what that will ultimitly mean it that untrusted files wont run. At risk of sounding paraniod, i suspect that many "untrusted" files will be politacaly sensitive.

7/Controlability
Linux wins here hands down, it was designed for and by people who are happy to type commands at the system, and the user freindly graphics interface is just a recent addition that make Linux workable for the point and click end user, which is basicly what i am.

.Clueless

Chilling_Silence
06-02-2003, 08:54 AM
So photoshop doesnt run.. What about under Wine or Wine-X???

Clueless
06-02-2003, 09:01 AM
and further while i'm here

8/Games
SuSE8 comes with more games in more catagorys than i can count.. unfortunatly most of them are far too slick for my video card
'doze comes with a few card games or something.

Chill....
i dont know about wine.. i use a 'doze box for 'doze based programs maybe i should give it a go.

.Clueless

roofus
06-02-2003, 09:28 AM
Nice analysis +ves of linux there clueless.
Although i do kinda disagree with 5) where you talk about konqeor yes indeed it can display some java tricks that IE can't
but your comments that IE wants to debug all the time etc etc are because you havn't configured IE properly. What do you mean its the only browser that works with chatF1 i've been there before and it worked fine with me? and im using IE6
IMHO rendering a page how its ment to look is more important than java tricks.

but i'm not trying to knock your comments in anyway

Clueless
06-02-2003, 09:59 AM
Roofus,
IE couldn't remember i type purple noot black, so it only got a 95% rating. In all fairness, i only use IE when i'm in Greymouth, as that is what Dyan has on her windows machine.

As for your comment about konqueror handling some java that IE can't... Do tell, i'm very interested.
A valid email address for me exsists in my profile if that gets a bit too of topic.

.Clueless

BIFF
06-02-2003, 11:33 AM
> I like AMD too.. But that's coz it
> costs less, and they are also more optimised for
> WinXP (Hence the XP on the end...).

Ha hahaa!

Dolby Digital
06-02-2003, 12:44 PM
I find rather amusing that people who use a particular product/service/software tend to defend it i.e. ask a programmer what the best editor is, usually its the one he/she knows best and they will defend it to the end if anyone criticises it. And often is gets personal. Like the classic Ford vs Holden debate. They are just cars produced by a company who are out to make money. I can't help thinking that companies like us to do that because if its "the best" (in peoples minds) people will buy it. Its like whats in fashion. If a company can create the impression that you need something to impress your friends/peers etc, people will go and buy it and they might make some money. PC are consumer products now and are subject to marketing hype etc. Whatever happened to OS/2 :D

Horses Hoof
06-02-2003, 01:55 PM
That sounds remarkably like you are describing the WinXP senario there. How many people were happily chugging along with WinME / Win98 or whatever, only to race out and upgrade to XP following the XPerience hype from the M$ marketers

Gorela
06-02-2003, 02:20 PM
Hi Chilling,

If you need to know some of the programs that run under Wine and some of the set up requirements you can check it out here (http://appdb.winehq.org/)
And I reckon if you had used Swat you wouldn't have had to many problems, but it isn't through the terminal ;p

But as far as this thread is concerned.....

I like Gnu/Linux because of the licencing and the cost ;) That said though, I do actually buy the retail versions of the products if I like them. So I have bought SuSE 6.4, SuSE 8.0 and Redhat 7.3. I will also be buying Mandrake 9.0.

With the set-up I have here I would not legally be permitted to run Windows due to their connection limitations ie 5 PCs and/or peripherals with Win9x and 10 for the Win2K. Gnu/Linux doesn't have these limitations and I can load the same OS on all of my machines.

Gnu/Linux has some great networking tools which means I can run DHCP, DNS, Http, Ftp, SMTP, etc, etc, etc. So many toys to play with :) But that is also a problem for new users, because if you aren't careful you can suddenly become lots of other internet users best friend ;)

The graphical interface and hardware compatibility has improved lots. Now when you install Gnu/Linux you just have to answer a few questions and select the software components and it goes to work. Once the set-up wizard has finished it'll reboot your system and your away. Heaps better than the old way of hunting around for I/O ports and address spaces ?:|

Overclockers have to be wary of Gnu/Linux though, as it can supposedly get a bit upset by unstable systems

The good thing about Windows is it's excellent software base. It's been around for years and has a large user base so it is a lot more profitable for commercial products.

The bad thing about Windows is of course the large user base, so you get more attention from worm makers as well.