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Susan B
11-01-2003, 02:59 PM
OK, you all knew I was looking forward to this.... :p

Have set up my network between a Win XP Home and a Win 98 computer and got them sharing files, pinging each other, etc etc, but try as I might I cannot get the Win 98 PC to browse the internet.

The Win XP is the Host and browses the web no problem but when I open IE on the Win 98 client and point it to Google (for example) it will try for a few moments, show the web address down in the status bar then give up and produce the Page Not Found error with Done in the status bar. Any other attempts produce an immediate refusal to even try to go anywhere. Makes no difference whether firewall is on or off on either machine but I have left it off mostly whilst experimenting.

Ran the XP Network Wizard on both machines to begin with but when the internet couldn't be browsed I then followed the PF1 Network FAQ to change the IP addresses to static addresses, etc. Nothing has made the slightest bit of difference.

Does anyone have any bright ideas to solve this problem? Goes off to find something very strong to drink

Graham L
11-01-2003, 03:03 PM
Could this be because it is XP Home. There are limitations on its networking, I believe.

cyberchuck
11-01-2003, 03:15 PM
Hey

If you can get the machines to ping eachother, then you could try a proxy server instead of ICS, as ICS has been known to have it's limits and limitations (from the networking experiences of yours truely).

ProxyPlus (http://www.proxyplus.cz) is a pretty good Proxy to use (and it's free!), however it can take some time to sort out how to enable Socks5 for use with MSN Messenger and maybe ICQ. However this is all countervened by the fact you can get it to run as a service on XP!

If you plan on using proxy plus post back and I'll help you out with sorting some of it out



CyberChuck

wuppo
11-01-2003, 03:46 PM
Have you set the 'Gateway' IP address on the win98 mach to the IP of the XP machine? You may also need to set a DNS IP on the Win98 to the XP's IP.

Susan B
11-01-2003, 04:08 PM
cyberchuck: If I have to I will investigate ProxyPlus but only as a last resort - I'd rather try and sort this out first if I can. Will let you know either way. :-)

wuppo: Yes, I have tried those settings with no results -- makes no difference.

godfather
11-01-2003, 04:38 PM
What are the settings in IE6 on the W98 machine? (in Connections)
ICS may in fact be working, but IE on that machine is just not looking where it should?

Susan B
11-01-2003, 05:29 PM
godfather: I was wondering about the settings you are referring to (it's IE 5.5 on that machine btw, not IE 6) but I'm not sure what I should be looking for.

There are two dial-up accounts with one of them the default and I had the "Never dial a connection" setting enabled but changed it to "Dial whenever a network connection is not present" with still no luck in browsing the web. I also went into the LAN settings and enabled the Automatically Detect Settings option - no change there either.

What else should I be looking at in there? Should those dial-up accounts be removed altogether?? :O

godfather
11-01-2003, 05:39 PM
I can't say, its a while since I had 2 running on dial-up. What I do remember was that it worked, but the connection wouldnt hang up when the remote machine had completed, so I scrapped it.

Just to recap, why don't you post all your IP addresses here (XP PC, 98 PC, Gateway.) Should be 3 IP addresses? as I remember

Susan B
11-01-2003, 05:50 PM
This is on the Win XP machine:

Windows IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . . . . : beast
Primary Dns Suffix . . . . . . . :
Node Type . . . . . . . . . . . . : Unknown
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . . . . : Yes
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . . . . : No

Ethernet adapter Local Area Connection 2:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : Realtek RTL8139 Family PCI Fast Ethe
rnet NIC #2
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-40-F4-73-B4-CA
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . :

PPP adapter e3:

Connection-specific DNS Suffix . :
Description . . . . . . . . . . . : WAN (PPP/SLIP) Interface
Physical Address. . . . . . . . . : 00-53-45-00-00-00
Dhcp Enabled. . . . . . . . . . . : No
IP Address. . . . . . . . . . . . : 210.55.26.251
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.255
Default Gateway . . . . . . . . . : 210.55.26.251
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . . . . : 210.55.24.8
210.55.24.9
NetBIOS over Tcpip. . . . . . . . : Disabled


And this is on the Win 98 machine:

Windows 98 IP Configuration

Host Name . . . . . . . . . : Mercury.Home
DNS Servers . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
Node Type . . . . . . . . . : Broadcast
NetBIOS Scope ID. . . . . . :
IP Routing Enabled. . . . . : No
WINS Proxy Enabled. . . . . : No
NetBIOS Resolution Uses DNS : Yes

Ethernet adapter :

Description . . . . . . . . : PPP Adapter.
Physical Address. . . . . . : 44-45-53-54-00-00
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . : Yes
IP Address. . . . . . . . . : 0.0.0.0
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . : 0.0.0.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . :
DHCP Server . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.255
Primary WINS Server . . . . :
Secondary WINS Server . . . :
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . :
Lease Expires . . . . . . . :

Ethernet adapter :

Description . . . . . . . . : Realtek 8139-series PCI NIC
Physical Address. . . . . . : 00-05-1C-11-03-51
DHCP Enabled. . . . . . . . : No
IP Address. . . . . . . . . : 192.168.0.2
Subnet Mask . . . . . . . . : 255.255.255.0
Default Gateway . . . . . . : 192.168.0.1
Primary WINS Server . . . . :
Secondary WINS Server . . . :
Lease Obtained. . . . . . . :
Lease Expires . . . . . . . :

Jacc
11-01-2003, 06:01 PM
I'm not an expert but the setting on my system are as follows
In Network & Dial-up connections I have an icon for "Local Area Connection" this is for the network card.
In Explorer under Internet Options/Connections I have an Icon for Web World & for Clear (previous provider) but the setting is "never dial a connection"
The only machine that has a dialup setting is the computer running wingate. Is that any help?

Jacc

cyberchuck
11-01-2003, 06:26 PM
Susan
Have you tried removing the TCP/IP Protocol for your modem from the Network Control Panel? - although this sounds kinda cheap, what it would do is force Windows98 to look to other means of obtaining an Internet Connection rather than reverting back to wanting to dialup. (well, in theory it sounds good).

Also, before you open Internet Explorer on the Win98 machine (once it's been turned on) have you tried pinging an internet computer (like www.pressf1.co.nz?) from your Win98 machine, as this will tell us whether it's an Internet Explorer configuration problem, or Windows isn't detecting the beast as your gateway.



CyberChuck

-=JM=-
11-01-2003, 07:31 PM
Did you end up managing to get to PressF1 (or anywhere else) by typing in the IP address instead of the domain name.

Chilling_Silence
11-01-2003, 07:38 PM
Okay, Im agreeing with CyberChuck here.. Remove the TCP/IP from Dial-Adapter in Network Settings so it cant be looking for an IP connection over your modem.

Next.. The DNS server is not the gateway, try using Xtra's for example:
Alien.xtra.co.nz's IP is - 202.27.184.102
terminator.xtra.co.nz is - 202.27.184.5

Set those as your DNS servers, Alien being the primary one!

Another thing.. I would use DHCP - as I've had a lot of troubles with ISC and static IP's. Its worth a shot anyways!

See what happens with that!

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Chilling_Silence
11-01-2003, 07:46 PM
Dont forget to try out using (in a command window) tracert.

Type in tracert 210.48.100.45

That's PressF1.

It'll let you see how far your connection is getting!

cyberchuck
11-01-2003, 07:50 PM
Chilling

I wold use the ebast as the DNS Server tab due to the fact that as the Win98 machine doesn't have direct internet access it would look to the beast to resolve Domain Names into IP Addresses, however as the beast doesn't have DNS conversion capabilities, it will go to alien and terminator to resolve the DNS, and then send the results back to the Win98 machine... - if that makes sense ?:|



CyberChuck

cyberchuck
11-01-2003, 07:51 PM
> I wold use the ebast as the DNS Server tab due to the
That should be "I would use the beast as the DNS Server due to the..."

- sorry I was in a hurry and buggered up big time



CyberChuck

Chilling_Silence
11-01-2003, 08:03 PM
Well, Currently on my 2K machine (I know you're on 98, but still....)
I have the two Xtra DNS Servers specified and its fine..

I have never tried to use the gateway PC as a DNS server. Gateway - Always, but DNS host - never.

BTW, On my current machine I was talking about.. Its not the gateway, its a client and does not have direct access.

What've you tried so far SB?

godfather
11-01-2003, 08:35 PM
As Susan is not connecting via Xtra, its not a Good Idea to use their DNS.

I believe the DNS specified in the ppp adapter will be correct?

cyberchuck
11-01-2003, 08:41 PM
Well now that you mention it, it makes more sense to use your ISP's domain servers (Susan) as the DNS Servers as therefore, the Win98 machine would use the beast as a gateway, gain internet access and then resolve its domains using your ISP's DNS Servers..

Although, I have successfully set up an ICS Network using TCP/IP as the protocols and had the gateway as the DNS Server.. It did crash a lot during shared internet access, so now that it's mentioned I wonder if that was one of the reasons



CyberChuck

Susan B
11-01-2003, 09:22 PM
OK, I think I'm now going backwards, not forwards as I just tried to connect to the internet on the old PC with its own modem but it won't browse on that now whereas it did this morning. The last time I tried this networking thing that happened and I had to restore a registry backup to get browsing back again.

Anyway, I will try removing the TCP/IP Protocol for my modem once I have figured out how to put it back should that not work.

DNS servers: I have tried using my ISP's DNS server numbers - no joy there.

Tracert results were interesting:

C:\WINDOWS>tracert 210.48.100.45

Tracing route to 210.48.100.45 over a maximum of 30 hops

1 1 ms <10 ms <10 ms 192.168.0.1
2 176 ms 161 ms 159 ms 192.168.251.45
3 165 ms 158 ms 159 ms 192.168.27.1
4 180 ms 170 ms 162 ms 192.168.254.70
5 162 ms 159 ms 157 ms 202.14.100.220
6 170 ms 162 ms 160 ms 210.48.113.34
7 165 ms 171 ms 164 ms 210.48.100.45

Trace complete.


And here is the Ping results:

C:\WINDOWS>ping 210.48.100.45

Pinging 210.48.100.45 with 32 bytes of data:

Reply from 210.48.100.45: bytes=32 time=177ms TTL=248
Reply from 210.48.100.45: bytes=32 time=168ms TTL=248
Reply from 210.48.100.45: bytes=32 time=196ms TTL=248
Reply from 210.48.100.45: bytes=32 time=176ms TTL=248

Ping statistics for 210.48.100.45:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 168ms, Maximum = 196ms, Average = 179ms


That is from the old Win 98 machine -- what do you make of it?? :O

I can ping and tracert from a DOS window but not browse with www. addresses....??

godfather
11-01-2003, 09:31 PM
Suggests your ICS is working, as you can successfully ping out into cyberland from the W98 machine.

I still suspect that the W98 IE doesnt realise it should be looking on the network.

Try something. In the local area network connection for the W98 machine, tick the box or whatever for displaying the icon in the tray ( the 2 little PC's like you see for dial-up)
See if it actually has any network activity when you first start to look for a web address.
You are right that once it has failed, it immediately fails seemingly without looking next time

Chilling_Silence
11-01-2003, 09:57 PM
> As Susan is not connecting via Xtra, its not a Good
> Idea to use their DNS.

Probably, but anything I think would be better than using 192.168.0.1 as a DNS host!

>
> I believe the DNS specified in the ppp adapter will
> be correct?

Yeah, on the Beast it will be, not on the 98 mc. I currently have Xtra's specified on my Client PC, but I use Ihug as my ISP.
My Gateway... I dunno, I'll check to see later, but I think its set to auto DNS over ppp.

It doesnt matter if I have Xtra's or none on the Client PC, works exactly the same either way!

As for removing TCP/IP... I mean remove it on the 98 mc.. :) (Just in case..)

You dont have any firewall software even Installed do you? Especially one Alarm - I would un-install it and re-boot, then carry on with setup, as it can cause a whole lot of trouble and is best left til after ICS is working 100%!

What about trying to use ICQ?

As you can see from the trace route that it's talking to the web... ping works too..

Have you tried setting up the 98 mc for DHCP? I'd suggest you leave that til last, but 98 has always seemed happier with me if you set it up for DCHP (Which is what it uses by default AFAIK).

The networking setup for 98 works with ICS fine right out of the box.
I installed 2K and enabled ICS, I setup a 98 Box and plugged it into the LAN and it was off immediately!!!

Have you tried booting off a Knoppix CD on the 98 mc to make sure everything is 100% on The Beast's setup, as that always works with a standard ICS setup!!!

That's about all I can think of at the moment, some might be helpful, other stuff might not.

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Susan B
11-01-2003, 10:07 PM
Been through everywhere with a fine-toothed comb and it doesn't look like Win 98 has those 2 little PC's like you see for dial-up. I know what you are talking about because I have had them displayed on the Win XP machine.

Thought I had better clarify too that I can't do a ping for www.pcworld.co.nz in a DOS window -- I can only get those ping results with the actual IP address so I'm not sure that IE is to be blamed. Something has got its foot holding the door shut and it's probably something very simple but damned if I know what.

****
Just seen Chill's new post....

When Win XP ran the network setup wizard those IP numbers weren't entered -- I only added them when it didn't work, by following the PF1 Network FAQ. Prior to that I was having problems viewing my shared folders on each PC.

> Have you tried setting up the 98 mc for DHCP?

Sorry, but that is a bit over the top of my head... will have to look that one up. In fact most of what Chill has said is over my head so I'll have to have another think tomorrow.

Very much appreciate all the suggestions so far -- thank you everyone. :-)

godfather
11-01-2003, 10:17 PM
Sounds like DNS lookup. What happens if you enter http://xxxx.xxxx.xxxx.xxxx (use PC worlds IP address for xxxx.xx....)

Wonder if IE can find it then?

cyberchuck
11-01-2003, 10:25 PM
> Been through everywhere with a fine-toothed comb and
> it doesn't look like Win 98 has those 2 little PC's
> like you see for dial-up. I know what you are talking
> about because I have had them displayed on the Win XP
> machine.
If your referring to WinXP notifying you that it's connected to the network successfully, you may be waiting a while due to the fact that only Windows2000 and XP (so far) give visual notifications upon the successful connection to a network.

>
> Thought I had better clarify too that I can't do a
> ping for www.pcworld.co.nz in a DOS window -- I can
> only get those ping results with the actual IP
> address so I'm not sure that IE is to be blamed.
> Something has got its foot holding the door
> shut and it's probably something very simple but
> damned if I know what.
So are you saying if you type "ping www.pcworld.co.nz" then it doesn't work, whereas if you type "ping 210.48.100.12" it responds - what is your current DNS Server at the moment?? - I would switch it back to the beast for the time been and try again to see if you can use your beast to resolve Domain Names for you. So you could be right - Internet Explorer isn't to blame as it can't resolve domain names.

Don't forget when changing DNS to change the HOST and the Domain Name Server Search Order. The HOST is case sensitive, and delete all the IP Addresses in the Domain Name Server Search Order and then re-add the IP of your beast.



CyberChuck

wuppo
11-01-2003, 10:31 PM
I suppose its asking the obvious, but in the XP dialup properties, you have got Internet Connection Sharing checked on the 'Advanced' tab? :| And yes it is OK to specify the Gateway IP as the DNS IP in the client machine.

Clueless
11-01-2003, 10:36 PM
Hi Susan... Heres the relevant settings Vanessa uses to get its internet connection via Sam.

tcp/ip properties:
gateway = 192.168.0.1 (sams IP)
WINS config=disable
IP= 192.168.xx.xx subnet mask =255.255.255.0
DNS config; host=vanessa domain= (blank), dns servers (paradise dns servers IP)

i have to wonder.. why 2 networkcards?

.Clueless

godfather
11-01-2003, 10:39 PM
One is the dial-up adapter, not a separate NIC.
I think Susan is nearly there...another 2 weeks should see it fixed

Clueless
11-01-2003, 10:46 PM
Me wonders if the machine is as confused as i was(am) and if pulling the modem out might unconfuse it.. Perhaps that is worth doing just as a troubleshooting excersize?

I thinks by memory '98 likes to connect to the net via the modem if it is there, admittantly it is sometime since i have had to deal with that.

.Clueless

Clueless
11-01-2003, 10:52 PM
Having read it all again, i'm convinced it is just lack of defined DNS server IP in the TCP/IP settings.

.Clueless

godfather
11-01-2003, 11:04 PM
I think thats close too.
Funny thing is, I once set this up here (pre ADSL) and just followed the bouncing ball and it worked.

Susan is in danger of losing her "Maven" status on networking at this rate. ;)

Clueless
11-01-2003, 11:28 PM
But GF.. did you have a modem in the machine as well?

5+ years ago i did similar, and wanted the option of using a shared modem connection, or a direct connection through my very own private modem. This was a long time ago, when Vanessa was an awesomely fast maching compared to everything i was connecting to.
i had alot of help, but the thing i rembered was that the modem/network option was such a total pain that we dropped the internet connection duality in favour of something that just plain worked.
Ever since then Vanessa has either dial direct, dailed out & satalite in (worked badly) direct NIC to cable modem, and finally now where vanessa talks to Sam, and Sam comunicates to the outside world. The latter 2 methords of connecting have been by far the simplist, certainly easyer than installing a reluctant modem, or any of the rest of the carryon.

.Clueless

godfather
11-01-2003, 11:35 PM
Yes, it was pre - XP and I had a Wingemodem in each machine then. (1 ME, 1 98SE)

It was much easier to have each dial as required, had 2 lines and the second machine only needed infrequent acces for e-mail, so used the primary line.

When putting ADSL on the LAN, it was magic. Just removed the DUN and it all worked.

I had to tell IE never to dial, or it wanted to dial if it couldn't find the page (as in the page did not exist)

Oh look.....nearly 3000 posts. Do I get a gold watch?

wuppo
11-01-2003, 11:39 PM
Clueless - not a problem with modem and NIC in a win98 box, although it is very easy to upset the TCP/IP stack - often requiring removal of networking components and a registry hack to clear out remnants b4 reinstalling TCP. Typical symptoms is a dialup will connect to ISP, but no further data flows! As long as Internet options are set to 'never dial a connection', ICS through lan works well.

Out of interest, XP ICS supports DHCP and DNS Proxy, so the recomendation for clients is to obtain an IP automatically, and obtain DNS server addresses automatically !!

Susan B
12-01-2003, 10:53 AM
Oh I am going MAD!!!!!


This morning I disabled the modem on the Win 98 box then went into Networking settings and removed everything, rebooted then reinstalled the network card off its CD and the Win98 CD when prompted. Noticed that NetBEUI was not reinstalled when it was there previously. Now has just TCP/IP protocols.

Next I ran the WinXP Network Wizard again on the WinXP box and on the Win98 box. No firewalls running while I did all this btw. Wow, look at that - WinXP now properly displays both its own and the Win98's shared folders in Win Explorer and it also loads them WAY faster than it did before so something has improved.

Tried a ping to PC World's IP address - fine.
Tried a ping to PC World's www address - no go.
Opened IE on Win98, tried browsing to ping to PC World - no go.
Still in IE tried browsing to PC World's IP address http://210.48.100.45 - no go.

Damn damn damn!!

Went into Win98 Networking again, enabled DNS sharing with the WinXP's IP address 192.168.0.1. Left other settings at auto, including on the WinXP box. Totally removed the modem from Hardware Settings this time, not just disabled and rebooted.

Tried all the pings again -- exactly the same results.

But wait! If I put ping pcworld.co.nz I get the same result as pinging its IP address, also Google.... weird! So it doesn't like the "www" bit??

That's the story so far. Since removing the modem from Hardware Settings I'm wondering if I also need to remove the TCP/IP Dial-Up Adapter from the network settings on the Win98 box? Would that be a Good Idea or not?

wuppo: Yes, I have got Internet Connection Sharing checked on the 'Advanced' tab on the WinXP box but there is another option, "Settings" and in there nothing is ticked. That mystifies me a bit but I have left it alone.

Clueless
12-01-2003, 11:11 AM
>Oh I am going MAD!!!!!

Welcome to my world
:D
.Clueless

E.ric
12-01-2003, 11:37 AM
Hi Susan I got lost on you long postings

I am not sure what computer is networked to your ISP, lets say it is the win XP computer
I think, not too sure if I am right,

All you need to do is make sure the ďWin XPĒ can network your ISP and the other computer (win 98),

While the Win 98 all that needs to do is network the Win XP, nothing more

so you do not have any ISP settings in the Win 98 computer.

Is that the right way to think of it? So when the Win 98 computer goes to www.google.co.nz it will use the Win XT settings.

Clueless
12-01-2003, 12:03 PM
Susan,
i'm going to disagree with E.ric and suggest that you try this on your 98 machine:

Primary DNS: 210.55.24.8
Secondary DNS: 210.55.24.14
(i'm assuming you are still with e3.net.nz)

Humour me Susan, even if just to prove me wrong!
:D
.Clueless

E.ric
12-01-2003, 01:04 PM
Think of the computer as a radio network the connection to the Internet provider ISP is on the AM band, & the two computer is networked on the FM band,

When the slave computer wishes to go to google, web site it makes a request on the FM band, the master computer picks up the request on FM and sends it down the telephone line on AM band, your ISP finds google and sends the page down the phone line, the master computer picks up the signal on AM and sends the page down to the slave computer on the FM band,

Thats why I say you only have to set up slave computer to network the FM band language or protocol.

Confused !!! how the hell did AM & FM come into this problem anyway?

Susan B
12-01-2003, 03:18 PM
Tried your suggestions Clueless and E.ric with no success. Removing the Dial-Up adapter made no difference either.

Going to reinstall the modem back in the Win 98 machine now as it needs to have an internet connection.

Thank you for all the help people, the support is appreciated. :-)

godfather
12-01-2003, 03:56 PM
Researched your problem, as another person on the web was having exactly the same issue.

Below was the response that worked for them.


Because the other sites require the intervention of a Domain Name Server (DNS) to convert their name (e.g., duxcw.com) into an IP address (e.g., 216.92.56.121) so your browser can connect to them, and the DNS configuration (IP addresses of the DNS servers) in the instance of the TCP/IP bound to the network adapter connecting the Internet is not correct.

Most Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have two DNS servers, a Primary and a Secondary. This information is normally provided in the documentation forwarded to you by the ISP when you open an Internet account and may be available on your ISPís web site.

Many ISPs have automated their systems so their DHCP (Dynamic Host Control Protocol) server automatically provides the DNS IPs just like they automate leasing (temporarily assigning) an Internet IP address to your PC. ICS can often do that for the client, also. If not, they have to be entered manually. They also have to be entered manually if the ICS client is setup with static IP address instead of using ICSís DHCP server, which has been deactivated.
See what they are on the ICS host (Start, Settings, Control Panel, Network, select the TCP/IP bound to the adapter going to the Internet, Properties, DNS Configuration) and enter them on the ICS client.

Now, from that it appears that the DNS pimary and secondary IPs need to be entered into the client settings, to match those in the host. And this is the issue you have, it works but the client is obviously not getting access to the DNS service.

Chilling_Silence
12-01-2003, 04:59 PM
First off - some Jargon, just for clarification:
DNS = Domain Name Server - Converts queries such as xtra.co.nz into 202.27.184.102
DHCP = Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol - Assigns an IP address each time the PC is connected. Save issues with Static IP's clashing!
TCP/IP = Transmission Control Protocol/Internet Protocol - How most PC's communicate today :-)

> Researched your problem, as another person on the web
> was having exactly the same issue.
>
> Below was the response that worked for them.
>
>
> Because the other sites require the intervention of a
> Domain Name Server (DNS) to convert their name (e.g.,
> duxcw.com) into an IP address (e.g., 216.92.56.121)
> so your browser can connect to them, and the DNS
> configuration (IP addresses of the DNS servers) in
> the instance of the TCP/IP bound to the network
> adapter connecting the Internet is not correct.

Yup, seems all good :-)
OT - ... I noticed something on my 2K box, and I've never seen it before (Client). It says "Register this connection in DNS". I think that migh tbe only for inbound queries, but I thought it was interesting, as I cant remember seeing that.

>
> Most Internet Service Providers (ISPs) have two DNS
> servers, a Primary and a Secondary.

Yes, When you send a request to a site - In this case it'll be www.xtra.co.nz, it looks for a reply from a DNS server.
There are two types of DNS query replies - Authoritive and Non-Authoritive.
There are 12 or 7, i forget, but I think 12, Main DNS servers in the world, which are effectively the backbone of the net.

> This information
> is normally provided in the documentation forwarded
> to you by the ISP when you open an Internet account
> and may be available on your ISPís web site.
>

Yeah, Some tell your their DNS address, running the "nslookup" command also does the same thing.

> Many ISPs have automated their systems so their DHCP
> (Dynamic Host Control Protocol) server automatically
> provides the DNS IPs just like they automate leasing
> (temporarily assigning) an Internet IP address to
> your PC.

Spot on there! When you connect, your PC is assigned a DHCP'd address to the PPP adapter. AFAIK, all Dial-up ISP's in NZ use this method, however there is the option of specifying it in Networking Properties for those ISP's that dont.

> ICS can often do that for the client, also.

Hmm.. Not that I know of by default on windows... Not that I've seen. Its always had the same IP as the gateway.

> If not, they have to be entered manually.

Umm.. Dont understand this.. :(

> They
> also have to be entered manually if the ICS client is
> setup with static IP address instead of using ICSís
> DHCP server, which has been deactivated.

Ergo - Use DHCP if you can! Open network properties and select TCP/IP - Your NIC Adapter
Untick "Specify IP Address"
There's also a second set of options underneath going from memory, I cant remember if it needs to be ticked or not with ICS/DHCP

> See what they are on the ICS host (Start, Settings,
> Control Panel, Network, select the TCP/IP bound to
> the adapter going to the Internet, Properties, DNS
> Configuration) and enter them on the ICS client.
>
> Now, from that it appears that the DNS pimary and
> secondary IPs need to be entered into the client
> settings, to match those in the host. And this is the
> issue you have, it works but the client is obviously
> not getting access to the DNS service.

Hmmm.. Lost me on that last part.. If I read it over a few more times it might make sense, but I'd say that its a whole lot easier to set up the 98 mc for DHCP.

A bit about DHCP - It'll always look for a "browsemaster" that keeps a record of all the IP's on the network, especially if its using DHCP.
Should the gateway go down, another will be found to become the browsemaster, keeping track of all PC's on the network.
Somewhere in the TCP/IP settings on your 98 box, you can unselect "browsemaster" or something similar, I'd do that.

Another thing, Im taking it that the Beast's IP is static for the NIC at 192.168.0.1 (You may have said that, but I cant remember..)

Try DHCP!!!

If it then works, then that's a start!


Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Chilling_Silence
12-01-2003, 05:15 PM
Okay, this is curious:

I have just setup a 2K mc recently to act as a DoD game Server. No monitor or anything so its just run using Remote Admin Software.

Now, standard install of doze, only thing changed was the IP address of the NIC.

It was specified as 192.168.0.2
subnet of 255.255.255.0
and the gateway was 192.168.0.1

Now, I decided to try using the net from the Server (using the Radmin software as screen/mouse/keyboard) and I knew it wouldnt work coz it simply never has for me. I was right.

I checked the DNS and it was set to a 3rd party DNS server... I musta done that when I statically setup the IP.

Now, that doesnt work...

I removed the DNS IP altogether (and it is a valid one... I double checked it using nslookup) and it still doesnt work!

I tried then the same one as the DHCP/Gateway/192.168.0.1 PC which is Ihugs 203.109.252.42 IP address - Joy! It works!

I then try 192.168.0.1 and again - it works!!!

If DHCP doesnt work, then I would suggest that on the beast you do this:

Open a command window
Type "nslookup" and it'll come up with a DNS server name and IP address.
Note down the servers IP, and go over to the 98 box.
Open up the NIC adapter TCP/IP pproperties and punch in the ISP's DNS Server IP.
Open up IE and try it out!
You dont need to reboot when changing the DNS stuff over - Its automatic!

BTW - If you wanna try switching DNS servers to alien.xtra.co.nz (Primary) and terminator.xtra.co.nz (secondary) then type:
server alien.xtra.co.nz
and it'll switch to Alien as the default... You may wanna switch to terminator and then back to alien on your XP box and note down both IP's, then use those IP's on the 98 box!


I think I've covered a few options that'll give you at least a good half-hours fiddling if DHCP doesnt work!

Lemme know what happens and how you go :-)

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Chilling_Silence
12-01-2003, 05:17 PM
Err.. You may wanna print that out, as switching between windows while setting up a network is a real pain!

Susan B
12-01-2003, 05:37 PM
Interesting stuff godfather and Chilling. I'll have a go at it once my head clears a bit.

Made a very important interesting discovery this afternoon that could possibly throw a whole new light on all this. I removed all the stuff out of the Network Properties box then reinstalled the modem and tried the internet out on that. I couldn't get anywhere, not even any pings. All pings to websites produced "Unknown host" or whatever it was to say it wasn't going anywhere.

This is interesting because the last time I tried networking I got that just by installing the network card and the only way I got back on the net was by restoring the registry from prior to installing the card. This time nothing will get me back on the net using the Win98 modem even though I have disabled the netword card. I'm really in the deep stuff now. :-(

So from this I deduce that the connection to Win XP is not at fault - it is the installation of the network card that has done something to the settings. With this in mind I think I should be focusing my attention elsewhere.

Meanwhile, how on earth am I going to get the Win98 box back on the internet without having to reformat?? I've also got problems with cookies on the Win XP box now, but that's another story.....

agent
12-01-2003, 06:03 PM
If I were you, at this point, I'd have formatted the 98 box and done a fresh install of Windows 98, with every card in except for the modem, and the network cable plugged into the network card during the install (can't remember if 98 sets up networks during install).

cyberchuck
12-01-2003, 06:44 PM
I wouldn't go to the extreme of formatting a computer when Susan's at this point - the Windows98 and Beast can successfully ping eachother and see eachother over the network, the Win98 can ping internet computers as well - however, seeing as it's only a DNS error, it should be a relatively easy fix to find a DNS server on which Windows98 will actually work with properly.

Yes - Windows98 does support the setting up of networks on installation - all Windows versions from Windows 3.11 up supports the installation of a network during install.



CyberChuck

agent
12-01-2003, 06:50 PM
A [DNS] problem that has been going on long enough. There is no reason why it (the Windows 98) computer shouldn't be working fine by now, which suggests the problem is beyond the current knowledge of everyone here who has taken a look at this thread.

Merlin
12-01-2003, 08:13 PM
What version of 98 are you using?

Chilling_Silence
12-01-2003, 08:14 PM
I fully disagree with that last statement agent.

I suggest the same as kenshin in a seperate thread, DHCP.

98 sets up Networking out of the box fine for all my networks Ive used so far, with 192.168.0.1 as the gateway, and it uses DHCP.

Try using DHCP (auto-assign IP) and then if that doesnt work, then try the DNS stuff I mentioned beforehand.

Still.. If nothing works after that, and its not a major, then a format and install might be a good idea.

If you've got sharing going, then backup shouldnt be a problem!

DHCP - First on the list!!!

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Merlin
12-01-2003, 08:25 PM
No - you people are creating enough of a mess as it is with guesswork!

1. Establish a working LAN
2. Establish an internet connection on the proposed host
3. Read (http://www.annoyances.org/exec/show/ics)
4. Ignore here until you have it set up

Clueless
12-01-2003, 08:27 PM
I'd have to agree with the reformat option, as much as that is a last resort, it does sound like there is something fundumentaly screwwy (*1) about this machines setup. Connecting your 98 machine to the net via the beast should be no harder than me connecting Vanessa to the world via Sam, or via my cable modem. Changing between these setups takes me 2 minutes. Quite simply, you should not be having these problems!

(*1) screwwy, a technical term, the alternatives for this term allthough more appropriate to this case would definately upset the language filter

.Clueless

Chilling_Silence
12-01-2003, 08:28 PM
Just a quick question...

Do you know anybody with a laptop that tthey could bring around, that works with an ICS setup??

If so, I would say (If its not too much trouble) that you ask them to bring it around and plug it in and try it out.

If it works (As it should) then you'll be able to knock out all XP settings, as they are correct. Then try and copy the settings on the Laptop with the IP/DNS settings etc :-)

*Am I really clutching at straws here?! ;)*

Clueless
12-01-2003, 08:32 PM
I was just about to suggest that (laptop/guest computer)!
that's not clutching at straws, thats called process of illimination, perhaps the best thing to do when everything is right, except that it doesnt work!

.Clueless

Chilling_Silence
12-01-2003, 08:33 PM
Merlin > The windows version is irrelevant at this stage, as the ICS Gateway abilities only come with 98SE, whereas all OS's can use the share once its available. (If that's what you're hinting at).

Clueless > I think you're right... The Language filter would get upset ;)
No, but seriously, it should be dead easy. I had 98 on my laptop and it was so simple to take it between home, work, and a friends weird LAN setup, just switching the IP stuff.. No sweat, and I did it for ages!

Perhaps a format might be your best option :)

Chilling_Silence
12-01-2003, 08:35 PM
> I was just about to suggest that (laptop/guest
> computer)!
> that's not clutching at straws, thats called process
> of illimination,

:D

> perhaps the best thing to do when
> everything is right, except that it doesnt work!
>
> .Clueless

Like in Susan B's case

With perseverance, Im sure we'll knock it :)

Susan B
12-01-2003, 08:56 PM
Yes, it looks as though I'm going to have to reformat. I'm not too sure about removing the modem prior to reinstalling Windows but if that's what it is going to take then I'll have to. Or give up the idea of ICS. I'm now pretty convinced it is the addition of the network card and drivers that has caused all this, not the attempts to connect to the WinXP box and ICS.

Just to spice things up a bit I discovered that cookies, Outpost and Trillian on this WinXP box have died on me today. Whether it is coincidence or not I don't know but I think I'm in for a reformat of both machines....... :-(


Merlin: It is plain Win98 with critical updates. That website gave me a fright with its declaration of ICS not being available with Win98 1st edition, but like Chill says, I only want it to be the client, not the host. I will read through all that website properly but from a quick scan it looks like I have done what it says.

Chill and Clueless: No, I don't know anyone with a laptop unfortunately.

Danger
12-01-2003, 10:47 PM
Sorry to see your haveing so many problems Susan, I know how frustrating that is. And I can't really offer anything constructive. What I would like to know from anyone following this thread is what are the advantages of haveing one computer used as a gateway to the internet? Why not just have both computers able to connect directly? I may have missed it but is it because you have jetstream or something? If your on dial up why not just connect with what ever computer when needed? Or if one computer is conected all the time via jetstream or something, surely if the computers are networked it doesn't really require both to be able to go online anyway? Just curious.

Clueless
12-01-2003, 10:52 PM
Danger, the advantages are that multiple people can use the net at the same time, that is, when it works.

I look after a network where 4 computers share a single dialup connection 24/7, they all send email, and browse the web at will.

.Clueless

Danger
12-01-2003, 11:11 PM
Ok, thanks Clueless. I guess that means that the connection speed to any one computer would be slower though if both computers were accessing the web at the same time though huh?

Marty2001
13-01-2003, 08:08 AM
Hi everyone
I have just read through this thread and Internet connection sharing is something I avoid because of this problem. (I use a server or wingate or a free proxy)
I have only ever gotten it working when the dialup is 192.168.0.1 and the slaves use DHCP as mentioned previously. I have seen internet connection sharing working without DHCP, but this is not the way microsoft recommends.
The idea of using free proxy software from the internet is much easier than reformatting.

Clueless
13-01-2003, 08:40 AM
Danger...
I consider dial up painful. and yes the only thing worse than watching the the browser crawl on a busy connection is watching it crawl because someone else is picking up several Mb of mail on a shared dial up connection somewhere else in the building where you cant even see them!
My Vanessa breifly shared a dial up connection with 8 other computers.. now that was sad, fortunatly we soon got an ihug satalite connection for the network.

My 2 computers share a connection, so guests can jump on my 'doze box and have full access while i am adding comments in here!


.Clueless

Chilling_Silence
13-01-2003, 08:45 AM
Danger > Yeah... Same here as with .Clueless, I run a home network, and the advantages of ICS are so useful! If I see the parents online doing some banking, I can jump on my own PC and Im instanly online - no extra wait or need for a second line for a second dial-up connect, with no second ISP account charges!
AFAIK - from the ISP's side, its as though there's only one PC connected, but its all perfectly legal etc :)

Marty2001 > I've never used proxy server software.. I've just had no need, All my networks have worked so far, using 98 in a lot of them, as Gateway and client :) I too use DHCP for all of them, and up until last night (see a previous post on this thread) I had never had a static IP working with ICS! Only DHCP!

Susan B > I would have though you might have System Restore enabled on your XP machine!?!
If DHCP isnt working, and none of that other suggested DNS stuff works, then I would suggest a format, as its setup for DHCP by default and has always worked for me, no extra fiddling required!!
Might be your best option... ...Did you say that you added the NIC after you had installed 98 at a later date?

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Susan B
13-01-2003, 05:11 PM
Right then, I'm now in the process of backing up everything off the Win98 PC prior to surgery.

Danger: I envy you!! You had it easy compared to this! :p

Marty: I have no choice but to reformat the old machine because nothing I do will get it back on the internet, either the way it used to with its own modem nor through the ICS which doesn't work. It needs to have internet access back on it as soon as possible and once I've reformatted I'll take things from there. It was due to be done anyway, much as I dislike doing it.

Chill: As I said earlier, on the Win XP PC cookies, Trillian and Outpost all died on me at once for some reason and I can't fix them. I tried System Restore but it had no effect. I might try reinstalling Win XP first but since that will change all my settings anyway I may as well go the whole hog.

> Did you say that you added the NIC after you had installed 98 at a later date?

Not sure what you mean by that but the Win 98 machine has only ever had that OS on it and yes, I did try installing a network card previously but removed it when things didn't work then.

Better get on with it: finish backing up my data, remove modem from Win 98 box, reformat, reinstall Win 98 then reinstall/reformat Win XP box, then try it all out again.
Looks longingly at all those PF1 posts that need answering and turns sadly away...

Marty K
14-01-2003, 04:59 AM
I know this has been already talked about, but I had the same problem a couple of days ago, Only difference I'm using xp pro. To make my win 98 connect I set up the network using the wizard while connected to the I-net, Zone alarm was a real problem I disconnected it, but for some reason I don't know why the xp network wizard keep enabling the IE built in firewall, It gave me the same problem as yourself. after it was diconnected every thing was ok, I know you said you have checked this and your problem is probably different to mine. this might help or could be no good at all. Just letting you know

Good Luck

brig
14-01-2003, 06:35 AM
Susan:
I have had home networking with 2 Win 98SE formerly, and now a Win XP server with a Win 98SE client for several years, and have been through a few glitches and reformats.

As a very amateur tweaker I can only get it right if I have in front of me a very basic setting up explanation from the net and follow it precisely

Whether you reformat or not you might do worse than have a look at this site for one of the better presentations:

http://www.homenethelp.com/web/howto/net.asp

However all of the help sites I have used seem to have their confusing omissions or inadequate explanations and a little intuitive interpretation doesn't go amiss.


Good Luck........

brig

Chilling_Silence
14-01-2003, 09:02 AM
Here's to hoping a fresh start will end up with networking success for ya Susan!

roofus
14-01-2003, 12:17 PM
Sorry to see you have to reformat Susan. I have just looked at this thread after a day or two, and everyone has been telling you to do this and that. Now they have confused you and your in a bit of a stick. The same thing happened when Danger tried to set up his network. People were telling him to pull out his modem, stick netbios over the top, bla bla bla. It just makes it so more complicated it's an easy task to do, and people have just stuffed it up for you.

Your probably in the process of reformating now. But i suggest you don't post back here until you have sat there and tinkered with it yourself, (and researched it yourself using the various sources on the net) as soon as you post here again, your gonna be swamped with different ideas.

P.s. im not bagging the help trying to be provided here.

Billy T
14-01-2003, 07:19 PM
Hi Susan

I've stayed out of this thread because my networking expertise isn't that good and you don't need any more people telling you that their network worked no probs (like mine did) ]:)

However, your talk of reformatting brings me in to flog my hobby horse of drive imaging. If you ghost or drive image your computer, you can play to your hearts content and restore in minutes without the drama of reformatting.

I keep a base image that represents a clean OS pre-installation of programs, and a second with all programs installed and working with most tweaks and patches installed. Those two I never touch again and they are stored on a separate HDD on my network.

I also keep a third image that I update every time I make a significant change. Between those changes I record minor tweaks and setup changes in a notebook. This lets me return in minutes to a clean OS, OS plus programs, or my last known stable installation.

It takes the sweat out of having fun with computers and if you try this after you sort your current problems you will have more time for those tempting posts on PF1.

As usual of course, I could be wrong, but in this instance I kinda doubt it, unless of course you live for reformatting.

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :|

Susan B
14-01-2003, 07:25 PM
I did it, I did it, I DID IT!!!

Yippeee!!! It worked! Removed the modem from the Win98 machine, reformatted, reinstalled Win98, installed some updates then ran the WinXP Network Wizard on both machines. A couple of reboots later and I'M ON THE NET!!! :D

Oh I am so excited!

Still have to reformat the WinXP machine to fix up a few problems on that then I'll have the tedious job of customising them back to how I like them and installing my programs again. Ugh, this machine looks awful with the default Win98 settings and it has the old IE 4.0 on it.

Thanks again everyone for ALL your support and advice, you lot really are the best! :-)

Starts digging out program installation disks...

agent
14-01-2003, 07:34 PM
Congrats Susan :D

Looks like the effort of a format was worth it after all, though someones bound to say it could've been done just by removing all or some hardware (or just the modem and network card) from the Device Manager list, shutting down, removing the modem, and rebooting.

Wonder why I didn't think of that before, and if it would've worked too

Clueless
14-01-2003, 07:41 PM
Is that "on the net" as in 2 machines working seperatly or networking, and working together with one as the gateway?

.CLueless

Susan B
14-01-2003, 07:56 PM
>Is that "on the net" as in 2 machines working seperatly or networking, and working together with one as the gateway?

It is exactly how I want it: one internet connection (provided by the WinXP box) on one telephone line and two computers networked and browsing the web at the same time.

Everything is working just how I wanted it to. :-)

It feels really strange not having to dial up this box. :p

Clueless
14-01-2003, 07:59 PM
Excellant!

Susan B
14-01-2003, 08:27 PM
Hi Billy: Didn't see your post up there just before.

Yes, I quite agree with you about Ghost and that's exactly what I'm in the process of doing right now (thanks PC World for my Ghost 2003!). Win 98 has IE 4.x and Ghost won't run without at least IE 5.x so the installation of that is what I'm currently waiting for. Hopefully nothing will upset the apple cart in the meantime but once Ghost is installed I will take an image of the installation so far then update it as I go. Programs will be installed gradually over a week or so just to make sure things work OK. I can assure you that I am about to join the ranks of Ghost fans. :D

BTW something real weird has happened in the last half an hour - my cookies have reappeared on Win XP! :O

Holds breath and hopes like mad that WinXP doesn't need a reformat after all...

Clueless
14-01-2003, 08:31 PM
Come tell CC and me all about it in CF1 Susan!

.Clueless

Jen C
14-01-2003, 08:44 PM
Well done Susan! :D

I am going to miss my daily read of this thread - twas getting quite interesting.

Now that you have experienced every possible option and senario for networking woes,
I know who to see for advice if I ever decide to network PC's

Chilling_Silence
14-01-2003, 08:54 PM
Congrats... [i]Now Ghost it while its in perfect working order ;){/i}

Billy T
14-01-2003, 10:10 PM
Hmmm........

I ghost with a DOS boot disk Susan, so IE versions or anything else remotely complicated doesn't get a look in.

Incidentally, always delete all unwanted files, empty IE cache, get rid of index.dat files then scandisk/defrag before ghosting so you start with a really clean slate
Wonders......what novel features can be found in Ghost 2003 that are not present in 2001?

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :D

Danger
14-01-2003, 11:20 PM
Good on you Susan. I know what you mean about the tedious job of customising everything tho, just been through that myself and still not fully finished. Thats why I'm glad I now have Ghost, although haven't looked into exactly how it works or what I need to do with it yet. Once I have everything up and running how I like, that will be the first thing I'll do, then a reformat of my old PC. Just can't seem to find the time to get around to it tho...

Chilling_Silence
15-01-2003, 09:03 AM
Man - Ghost 2K3 is DEAD easy.. Although I did it from one partition to another..

Follow your nose is what I said last night to susan... Its dead easy, and very good and quick at backing up and restoring.

I did 4.5 gigs down to about 1.6 in just under 15 mins!

You can even do it to network shares AFAIK!

Cheers


Chilling_Silence

Susan B
15-01-2003, 04:27 PM
> I ghost with a DOS boot disk Susan, so IE versions or anything else remotely complicated doesn't get a look in.

Never a dull moment with my PCs is there.... I can't get Ghost to run now. :p It installed OK but won't go through with a backup so the latest project is trying to find out why. :rollseyes:. Might have to try your method yet Billy, with the DOS version.

> Incidentally, always delete all unwanted files, empty IE cache, get rid of index.dat files then scandisk/defrag before ghosting so you start with a really clean slate

That makes sense, I'll have to remember that. :-)

Chilling_Silence
15-01-2003, 05:03 PM
Well SB - Its dead easy for me.

Ghost 2K3 on Win2K.

I double clicked on the sys tray icon.
You click Backup and you're off... You cant save the .gho image to the HDD you're backing up though, so you might need to select Advanced (Going from memory) on the main options and select something like Peer2peer for networking. Havent tried it myself, Ive only done Partition to Partition, but follow your nose and you should be fine!

Dunno what the IE version has to do with it!?

Susan B
15-01-2003, 05:15 PM
> I double clicked on the sys tray icon. You click Backup and you're off...

Chill: Yup, I did that, then after telling it I wanted to write to a CD it threw up an error message. The very first time it runs it needs to "identify the hard disk" and that's where it stops because it can't for some reason.

I suppose I should start a new thread as this isn't to do with the network any more. Let me do some more "research" and if I don't get anywhere I'll start that new thread.

Chilling_Silence
15-01-2003, 08:23 PM
Ah, yes, It has to do something to the HDD, label it or something that prepares it somehow..

Never done CD-R backup either...

This could shape up to be an interesting topic :D