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B.M.
14-03-2017, 04:29 PM
A friend has purchased a new Laptop complete with Win10.

However, we canít open folders, even ones on an external Back-Up drive.

7932


Is this yet another feature of Win 10? :rolleyes:

Lurking
14-03-2017, 04:52 PM
New computer !!!, take it back to the shop and tell them to open it up to the new owner, now that it has been sold to your friend.

Consumer Goods Act at any rate.

lurking.

B.M.
14-03-2017, 05:52 PM
New computer !!!, take it back to the shop and tell them to open it up to the new owner, now that it has been sold to your friend.

Consumer Goods Act at any rate.

lurking.

Your right Lurking.

Purchased on the 13th and on my desk on 14th. What the hell did I do to deserve this.

Imagine if you purchased a nice new car and the motor started but it wouldnít go backward or forward.

And here was me thinking if I never saw another Win 10 computer it would still be too soon.

Anyway, here we have a fully qualified Superannuant who has lost her Husband to a Stroke and sheís expected to deal with this nonsense.

Itís not as though she is incapable, being one of the best drivers Iíve ever driven with and still delivering vehicles for one of the Worlds biggest Rental Car Companyís.

On reflection, I might go with her to return it, but stay outside and enjoy the Pantomime. :D

wainuitech
14-03-2017, 06:05 PM
1st WHO went into the file option in the control panel and unticked the protected system folders ???

Easily Replicated the message:

7933

There is nothing wrong with the OS unless its been fiddled with, those are hidden on purpose and the only way they are made visible is to alter that setting. Someone at some stage has changed setting.

7934

The external Drive could be similar.


Who ever fiddled or thought they know what they are doing, tell them to stop before they really screw things up.

KarameaDave
14-03-2017, 07:02 PM
Perhaps taking ownership is required?
http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-take-ownership-and-get-full-access-to-files-and-folders-in-windows-10/

wainuitech
14-03-2017, 07:12 PM
Perhaps taking ownership is required?
http://winaero.com/blog/how-to-take-ownership-and-get-full-access-to-files-and-folders-in-windows-10/ Only if a person really wants to fowl things up.

They are hidden protected system files (on purpose), not meant to be fiddled with, ALL OS's have them, Windows, Linux, iOS

There's only 3 ways those files will become visible. (my bets on # 2 or 3)

1. Bad Factory install (highly unlikely) as it will have effected hundreds of computers using the same factory Image, and in-house checks will have stopped it.
2. The Computer was a Store Demo and someone's fiddled with it. It was then packed back up and sold.
3. Someone has fiddled with it, Who thinks they know what they are doing but doesn't really know.

Seen hundreds of new computers and NEVER seen those protected files showing.

fred_fish
14-03-2017, 07:56 PM
'My Pictures' is supposed to be a hidden system file?

B.M.
14-03-2017, 08:09 PM
Only if a person really wants to fowl things up.

They are hidden protected system files (on purpose), not meant to be fiddled with, ALL OS's have them, Windows, Linux, iOS

There's only 3 ways those files will become visible. (my bets on # 2 or 3)

1. Bad Factory install (highly unlikely) as it will have effected hundreds of computers using the same factory Image, and in-house checks will have stopped it.
2. The Computer was a Store Demo and someone's fiddled with it. It was then packed back up and sold.
3. Someone has fiddled with it, Who thinks they know what they are doing but doesn't really know.

Seen hundreds of new computers and NEVER seen those protected files showing.

Whoa, are you saying the "Documents/My Pictures" Folder is protected along with their counterparts on a backup external drive?

7935

B.M.
14-03-2017, 08:12 PM
Sorry Fred, you beat me to it. :)

Terry Porritt
14-03-2017, 08:20 PM
Whoa, are you saying the "Documents/My Pictures" Folder is protected along with their counterparts on a backup external drive?

7935

Yes of course where have you been all these years :) They have not been accessible since Vista.

It is explained here for Vista, but the same applies to Win10, 8.1, Win 7 : https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_vista-security/access-denied-to-the-my-documents-and-settings/915eecc8-6a07-4d6a-8ca5-468ee51e9484

Extract: "In Windows Vista, the “My Documents and Settings“, has been replaced by "Users". Each user account will then have Documents, Pictures, videos etc. Note the "My" designation is no longer used. These junction points exist to provide backwards compatibility for older programs that are unaware of the new folder structure in Windows Vista. A program that is hardcoded to install files in the old Documents and Settings will be silently redirected to the new location."

wainuitech
14-03-2017, 08:30 PM
Whoa, are you saying the "Documents/My Pictures" Folder is protected along with their counterparts on a backup external drive?

7935 Yes, the "my Pictures" in the Documents folder is a hidden operating system file. ( see below for external HDD)

If you go into the control Panel / File Explorer Options - View Tab - "Hide Protected Operating System Files" will be unticked.

7936

How ?? - someone will have unticked it (default is hidden). Re-tick it, apply and the folders will disappear along with many others. You can always tell them, they either have "." in front of the name or more easily, the folder will be transparent / Lighter in colour.

Someone at some stage has unticked it. (the box as above)

Altering the files can cause all sorts of trouble, compare it like your Linux OS -- if you go into folders/files that require top level admin rights, a person can really do a lot of damage. ( not a good idea to do it)

The Only Default "Picture" Folder is under the User Name / Pictures.

Try re-hiding the folders, and see if it makes any difference with the external HDD. If the box is unticked it will effect hidden folders on any attached drive /device, phones, cameras included.

fred_fish
14-03-2017, 09:02 PM
But if it's a Junction Point, should it not act just like an actual directory?

And it should still be accessible to the owner, otherwise the purported use for 'backwards compatibility' for old apps (running as that user) will fail as well, no?

Terry Porritt
14-03-2017, 09:25 PM
"My Pictures", "My Music" etc in XP have been replaced by Pictures, and Music etc.

Pictures for eg. that have been sent to My Pictures (inaccessible and hidden) by some process will be redirected to Pictures. It only gets confusing when those system folders are unhidden and you get "My xxxx" type folders showing.

wainuitech
14-03-2017, 09:32 PM
If Files / Folders are hidden (esp protected ones) they are done for a reason.

As one other site puts it:
the important system files and folders are hidden in Windows 10 for a reason (and thatís how it should be) ------ these important system files should be handled with care (unless of course, you deliberately want a non-functioning computer).

Every OS is the Same, there are some files/ folders a general user should not be allowed easy access to, other wise, they will break the OS.

Theres a difference between Hidden files and protected system files.

Sometimes you can delete hidden files = no problem other times :(

Example today - Thunderbird profile badly damaged, was in a hidden folder, removed it, recreated another, then put all the mails back.

Deleting System Files often results in a really negative effect unless a person knows what they are doing and can repair/replace them.

fred_fish
14-03-2017, 09:46 PM
"My Pictures", "My Music" etc in XP have been replaced by Pictures, and Music etc.

Pictures for eg. that have been sent to My Pictures (inaccessible and hidden) by some process will be redirected to Pictures. It only gets confusing when those system folders are unhidden and you get "My xxxx" type folders showing.
Yes, but the 'some process' is to use junction points, so the different named paths point to the same physical location on disk.
Hidden or not, both paths still need to be accessible to the user to fulfill the stated goal - which doesn't explain BM's symptoms.

Terry Porritt
15-03-2017, 07:52 AM
Yes, but the 'some process' is to use junction points, so the different named paths point to the same physical location on disk.
Hidden or not, both paths still need to be accessible to the user to fulfill the stated goal - which doesn't explain BM's symptoms.

Not according to Microsoft, they don't want any user accessibility to protected files. If the "hide protected system files" box was ticked then the user would be completely unaware that protected folders like "My Pictures" even existed.

I remember playing around way back several OS's ago, and forcing my way in :), but can't remember details now.

1101
15-03-2017, 09:05 AM
Its a 'symbolic link' (google it) . Its NOT the same as shortcut .
Its NOT a folder .

It can EASILY cause issues when clicking it on a backup drive
It can EASILY cause issues with backup programs that dont know what to do with it

Win7 works exactly the same way.

wainuitech
15-03-2017, 09:10 AM
Yes, but the 'some process' is to use junction points, so the different named paths point to the same physical location on disk.
Hidden or not, both paths still need to be accessible to the user to fulfill the stated goal - which doesn't explain BM's symptoms. Yep those folders are hidden and are junction points. They are locked for a reason -- if they were altered the person could very easily damaged their Operating system.

Seen it many times, people remove or alter hidden files/folders and then cry fowl because THEY broke the OS.

The following is from XP-Vista, but it applies to W10 as well. message-when-you-try-to-access-the-my-documents,-my-music,-my-pictures,-and-my-videos-folders access-is-denied (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/930128/error-message-when-you-try-to-access-the-my-documents,-my-music,-my-pictures,-and-my-videos-folders-in-windows-vista-access-is-denied)

As MS state:
If you change these default settings, the system will become unstable.

Would a person undo the wheel nuts on their car then complain when the wheels fall off ?? Not the car manufactures fault the person did something dumb.

As to why these are showing in the first place ? Listed the possible causes earlier on Post #6

Because no one has all the information, every thing that was done, any responses can only go on whats given.

Seen Shop Demo Computers simply boxed up and sold cheaper, Harvey Norman did it once, they should have reset it back to factory default, but didn't so still had their own user name, passwords, lock downs etc.

B.M.
16-03-2017, 09:50 AM
Sorry nothing to report on this guys as the computer was required at home and the transfer of files put on hold for the moment.

However, the computer, from memory, is a Lenovo Ė ideapad Ė 500 and I was looking to check the BIOS to see what the Boot order was, but F2, F10, Del etc. didnít work so I consulted Google.

Well this all new to me, it has a ďLovo ButtonĒ apparently which allows you access to the BIOS. Unfortunately, I wasnít able to find it prior to the computer being picked up.

I suspect it may be a small hole somewhere and the button is activated with a paper clip or something?????

The reason I was wanting to check the BIOS boot order was I planned boot from a Linux Disk, pick up the files I wanted and plonk them where I wanted. Donít know if that would work or not because this machine has a UEFI Bios and some of my reading tells me that UEFI wonít work with Linux or Files from pre Windows 8 computers???

I can see a format and "Upgrade" to Linux Mint coming. :)

dugimodo
16-03-2017, 10:26 AM
I know you prefer Linux B.M. but installing it on someone elses computer makes you the permanent IT support person for everything they can't figure out how to do from then on - just saying.
Linux is great for those willing to put the time and effort in to learn how to use it, and if pre-installed is fine for basic computing tasks most people need. However not everyone will be comfortable or happy with it just because you are.

Personally I'd have done what someone suggested earlier and taken it back to the shop to fix, why waste your time and effort on something that should have been supplied working fully. The other option as it's new and likely not had too much put on it yet is just to do a fresh install of windows 10, took me about 15-20 mins from a USB stick last time as per my NAS backup thread. Will probably take a bit longer on a newer PC as there are likely a driver or two to download.

B.M.
16-03-2017, 12:35 PM
You make some valid points dugi, so let me explain my rationale.

Unfortunately, it would seem I have already been appointed support person, like it or not, :( and the reason Iím changing them over to Linux is to avoid the continual problems they are having with various versions of Windows, but especially Win 10, thus reducing my workload.

They are all elderly with only very basic requirements, so send and receive E-Mails, browse the Internet, talk to the Garandies on Skype, and store a few photos is all they want or need.

All those things can be easily achieved with Linux and if you put the Icons back in the same place on the desktop they wouldnít have a clue what OS they were running.

Now my rationale was only good to a point, because the owners of the five computers Iíve converted are telling their mates how trouble free they are, and that wasnít part of the plan.

I first tried Linux back in 2006 (using a Dick Smith ubuntu disk which I still have) and declared it hopeless. It wasnít until September last year, after all sorts of problems with Win 10, that I revisited
Linux and found it great. It had come a long way in ten years. The basic things were easy, and with the help of people on this forum even the more difficult were achieved.

Anyway, Iím as happy as a dog with two tails with the Mint version of Linux, but just hope the rumour suggesting that if you visit B.M. with your computer under one arm and a box of stubbies under the other heíll fix your computer doesnít get traction. Bring the Stubbies by all means, but leave the computer at home. :)

wainuitech
16-03-2017, 03:20 PM
BM the BIOS -- F1 https://www.techwalla.com/articles/how-to-get-into-lenovo-bios

The UEFI will stop the computer from booting from most media, unless there's an option to select a boot menu, and select certain Media /Drive. Normally to work around that you have to log into the BIOS, change it to legacy boot, then boot from what ever media you are using, but you need to put the BIOS back other wise the OS wont boot as it should.

The NOVO button, normally top left - a very small button just in front of the left hinge may have a arched arrow.

FYI the updates in W10 -- The next version out very soon has the option to turn them off.

pctek
16-03-2017, 05:02 PM
Y

They are all elderly with only very basic requirements, so send and receive E-Mails, browse the Internet, talk to the Garandies on Skype, and store a few photos is all they want or need.

All those things can be easily achieved with Linux and if you put the Icons back in the same place on the desktop they wouldnít have a clue what OS they were running.


Have to agree with that.
The reason I stuck with MS so long was gaming.

Win7 will be my last one, Win10 can go f*** itself.

B.M.
16-03-2017, 05:08 PM
Thanks for that Wainui, Iíve bookmarked the page and will reappraise things should the computer ever return. :thumbs:

It did strike me odd though that the F1 key enters the BIOS? What key is help? Iíve got to be missing something surely. :confused:

I wonder how long it will be before Car Manufactures follow suit and change the pedals around every model? :eek:

Actually, I got caught in my Contracting days by a Drott I had purchased. As you may, or may not know, some track machines have a de-accelerator not an accelerator. This means you open the hand-throttle and slow the thing to an idle by pushing the de-accelerator with your foot.

Great, but I had bought a rough bit of land and thought Iíd use my own Drott on the weekends to clear it. Normally it had an experienced operator, but hey it was my Drott and My farm and it would give me experience with these things.

Well things were going fine, but one day as I was pushing Kanuka over a bank when I swear a zillion Wetaís came out of one of them and landed on the hot bonnet. Well that didnít please them and I wound up covered in them. Unfortunately, whilst trying to brush them off my foot came off the de-accelerator and over the bank full throttle we went.

Hours later I had an unplanned track, because I had to dig my way out as it was not possible to get out the way I came in. :)

Lurking
16-03-2017, 05:18 PM
Kanuka/Manuka make great honey, so those Wetas' would be pretty fit, after eating that scrub.

wainuitech
16-03-2017, 05:24 PM
It did strike me odd though that the F1 key enters the BIOS? What key is help? I’ve got to be missing something surely.
Nope you got nothing wrong.

Been MANY times fingers on F1, F2, esc, or F5, F9, F10, F11, F12 --------- Ones got to work ;)


Actually, I got caught in my Contracting days by a Drott I had purchased. As you may, or may not know, some track machines have a de-accelerator not an accelerator. This means you open the hand-throttle and slow the thing to an idle by pushing the de-accelerator with your foot.
Nope didn't know that - be a real gotya if you didn't know.

YEARS ago, when I was around 7-10 - wont say how many years that was, taking off shoes and wont be enough to count along with fingers. :D Anyway, years ago when some mates fathers were racing Stockcars, we had trollies made of steal, we would race down certain hills, firebreaks, no breaks apart from feet on the ground, real Fred Flintstone - (try that today and all hell would break lose), One mates father some how screwed up the steering - most had ropes tied to the front axels to steer, but not this guy.

The trick -- Turning the steering wheel to the LEFT but the wheels went RIGHT --:waughh: Made for some interesting moments :lol:

B.M.
16-03-2017, 05:38 PM
Win7 will be my last one, Win10 can go f*** itself.

:eek: You girls are getting quite explicit.

Thatís what my late mates widow reckons too. :lol:

B.M.
16-03-2017, 05:52 PM
Kanuka/Manuka make great honey, so those Wetas' would be pretty fit, after eating that scrub.

All was not lost Lurking, the Manuka was the best for smoking Marlin. :)

Hell I'm reminiscing now. :crying

1101
16-03-2017, 07:53 PM
It did strike me odd though that the F1 key enters the BIOS? What key is help? I’ve got to be missing something surely. :confused:

I wonder how long it will be before Car Manufactures follow suit and change the pedals around every model? :eek:


Yeah, it p*sses me off as well.
F1, F2, F11, F8, F10 ,F12, del, esc . Its like they said , hey just pick A DIFFERENT one of those for the next model we make.
Can also have ctrl with one of the above, or shift with one of the above etc

MS should have just said, 'if you want to put a Win sticker on that thing, these are the F numbers you MUST use'
Seems every other laptop or PC I see, I now have to google to find how to get into bios , or get to boot menu etc.
:badpc:
and a :banana

B.M.
16-03-2017, 07:59 PM
YEARS ago, when I was around 7-10 - wont say how many years that was, taking off shoes and wont be enough to count along with fingers. :D Anyway, years ago when some mates fathers were racing Stockcars, we had trollies made of steal, we would race down certain hills, firebreaks, no breaks apart from feet on the ground, real Fred Flintstone - (try that today and all hell would break lose), One mates father some how screwed up the steering - most had ropes tied to the front axels to steer, but not this guy.

The trick -- Turning the steering wheel to the LEFT but the wheels went RIGHT --:waughh: Made for some interesting moments :lol:

I believe you, because a mate of mine, who was a mechanic, managed to get the drop arm from the steering box on a Vanguard (from memory) on the bottom not the top which did exactly the same thing. What’s worse, he left it like that for weeks inviting mates to test drive his car. :eek:

And as a bonus, he somehow got the crown-wheel on the wrong side of the Pinion in the differential of an old Chev (I think) truck, which gave it three reverse gears and one forward, which in turn raised the question “Was this thing manufactured in Italy”? (Senior Citizens will get it}

But, I’ve also got another mechanic mate who somehow managed to get a E93a Manifold (see Prefects avatar) on upside-down, plus drop two batteries in a day, who went onto become an “A” grade Mechanic and become a Tutor for Ford in both America and England.

Man I’ve lived in a great era. :lol:

wainuitech
16-03-2017, 08:22 PM
BM - sounds like you're describing something like this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Ee_Hkxc-8

Don't know if you heard it before - You'll get it and relate ;)

B.M.
16-03-2017, 08:23 PM
Yeah, it p*sses me off as well.
F1, F2, F11, F8, F10 ,F12, del, esc . Its like they said , hey just pick A DIFFERENT one of those for the next model we make.
Can also have ctrl with one of the above, or shift with one of the above etc

MS should have just said, 'if you want to put a Win sticker on that thing, these are the F numbers you MUST use'
Seems every other laptop or PC I see, I now have to google to find how to get into bios , or get to boot menu etc.
:badpc:
and a :banana

Incredible, here you have an Industry full of ďRegularity BodiesĒ and they canít even sort the "Simple S..t". :rolleyes:

B.M.
16-03-2017, 08:49 PM
BM - sounds like you're describing something like this -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39Ee_Hkxc-8

Don't know if you heard it before - You'll get it and relate ;)

Wainui, I think I would have most of Johnny Cashís records, but Iíve never heard that one, let alone the clip.

Boy oh boy, can I relate to it, the link will be off to mates around the world who would fully understand. ;)

Whoever wrote the lyrics has sure been there. :lol:

fred_fish
18-03-2017, 11:35 AM
The following is from XP-Vista, but it applies to W10 as well. message-when-you-try-to-access-the-my-documents,-my-music,-my-pictures,-and-my-videos-folders access-is-denied (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/930128/error-message-when-you-try-to-access-the-my-documents,-my-music,-my-pictures,-and-my-videos-folders-in-windows-vista-access-is-denied)
That explains it nicely, thanks.
Write is allowed but Read is denied ... still seems a bit of a problematic arrangement to me.


Its a 'symbolic link' (google it) . Its NOT the same as shortcut .
Its NOT a folder .

It can EASILY cause issues when clicking it on a backup drive
It can EASILY cause issues with backup programs that dont know what to do with it

Win7 works exactly the same way.
I'm familiar with Junction Points on NTFS, and for the most part they behave exactly like any other folder to the OS and applications (some special cripple-cases like Windows Backup barf on them though)..
WT's screenshot does indeed show shortcuts, and the error msg is "Access Denied" to a directory (that just happens to be a JP) because of the Read Deny attribute for the user in question.