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Terry Porritt
18-09-2014, 05:34 PM
We live in a strange world, Mr Micawber had it right;

""Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen [pounds] nineteen [shillings] and six [pence], result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

And yet.......... "Official figures show the seasonally-adjusted current account deficit increased to $2 billion in the three months to June, compared with a revised $617 million shortfall in the previous quarter."

http://www.radionz.co.nz/news/business/254816/balance-of-payments-gap-widens


Then we now have economists saying this is a good thing because the increase is due to all the profits being taken out of the country by foreign owned firms (and hence increased economic activity)....listen yourself to the gurus....

http://www.radionz.co.nz/national/programmes/businessnews/audio/20150062/one-reason-for-the-rising-current-account-deficit-is-good-news

R2x1
18-09-2014, 05:48 PM
And these clowns advise the clowns that some suckers are going to elect?
:(

Terry Porritt
18-09-2014, 05:54 PM
And these clowns advise the clowns that some suckers are going to elect?
:(

It may encourage a certain party to sell off even more assets and get them to encourage private firms to sell themselves to overseas buyers...............the good news would be even better then.:banana

R2x1
18-09-2014, 06:05 PM
At least the advisers are only incompetent and stupid. Those they advise are not so clean in their actions, even the ones they remember.

"Those prepared to give up a little liberty in order to gain a little security wind up losing both."

B.M.
18-09-2014, 07:44 PM
I don’t know what some of these pricks are smoking, but I want some otherwise I’ll never keep up! :groan:

ruup
18-09-2014, 08:30 PM
I Know....Lets have a tax cut...that'll fix it.

Terry Porritt
18-09-2014, 08:54 PM
I Know....Lets have a tax cut...that'll fix it.

That is an absolutely brilliant idea ! I like it ! ACT want to reduce business tax to 17% thereby greatly increasing the profits for foreign owned companies and the outflow of money, about doubling the current account deficit. Just imagine all the good news that would result in.

Ok then, as Reginald Gardiner said..."back to the looney bin":groan:

EDIT: for pcuser42, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgZlT1IA8-U the classic 'Trains' from 1934

pctek
19-09-2014, 06:44 AM
Yeah....sigh.
And imagine if we did that.
Hmmm, income is a bit lacking, bills are more - I'll sell the bedroom suite.
Right, done that, now I'll sell the fridge.
And the TV, and the lounge suite, and the oven and .....

R2x1
19-09-2014, 07:09 AM
Yeah....sigh.
And imagine if we did that.
Hmmm, income is a bit lacking, bills are more - I'll sell the bedroom suite.
Right, done that, now I'll sell the fridge.
And the TV, and the lounge suite, and the oven and .....
Sorry, you haven't been paying attention. The way it is done by the Keyteam is to sell your employer's stuff, not your own. Remember that your employers (AKA voters in the Keyteam case) are pretty gullible and will swallow almost anything and anyway, this is the standard process for keeping things cosily confidential (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11327328).

B.M.
19-09-2014, 07:52 AM
Sorry, you haven't been paying attention. The way it is done by the Keyteam is to sell your employer's stuff, not your own. Remember that your employers (AKA voters in the Keyteam case) are pretty gullible and will swallow almost anything and anyway, this is the standard process for keeping things cosily confidential (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11327328).

And HERE (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11327317)

Another sad indictment on the incumbent. :groan:

plod
19-09-2014, 08:59 AM
Increase min wage, decrease company tax to offset it. Government probably better off with paye as companies usually pay as little tax as possible anyway.

1101
19-09-2014, 09:37 AM
Increase min wage, decrease company tax to offset it. Government probably better off with paye as companies usually pay as little tax as possible anyway.

You're the only post to even try & offer an alternative. Its so easy to moan, especially when 1 govt at least tries to bring spending excesses down.
Increase min wage, manufacturers will go : hmmn, i can get that same thing done overseas for 1/5 the wage cost & with no govt intervention or add on govt costs(ACC etc)
Thats why we dont have alot of manufacturing in NZ, and getting less every year . Its gone offshore or simply closed down.

Ecomonics 101 :we are a farm based economy : ie NOT A RICH COUNTRY.
Yet we expect the things that can can only be obtained with high govt spending .
The welfare state is not cheap to run.

Want the govt to stop spending more than it earns, heck thats a dead easy fix. they just stop spending..stop spending on us.
This has been going on since the 50's , give the masses what they want (handouts, infrastructure we cant afford) even if the country cant afford it.

Look at things from a world scale: say you have a farm based economy with wages at 5x - 10x the world average and out of control govt & city council spending. Whats going to happen to that country ?

Getting back to the original post: spending more than you earn actually does make us happy, not sad.
Why else would we borrow to buy expensive cars & big screen TV's

Webdevguy
19-09-2014, 09:46 AM
Increase min wage, decrease company tax to offset it. Government probably better off with paye as companies usually pay as little tax as possible anyway.

Personally I don't agree with increasing the minimum wage ("just because") although I do agree with decreasing company tax, considering that a large percentage of NZ businesses are small locally operated setups who would benefit from paying less tax.

I think a viable solution needs to be looked at for the minimum wage, ideally the minimum weekly wage for a 40 hour week needs to be higher than what you would get paid if you were going for the unemployment benefit ( or what ever they call it now). After that, if an employer is going to pay you more you should be able to demonstrate that you have achieved more skills and are worth more to your employer either by way of some sort of on the job training/apprenticeship etc as paying the employee more "just because" is not exactly a viable solution.

Webdevguy
19-09-2014, 09:52 AM
You're the only post to even try & offer an alternative. Its so easy to moan, especially when 1 govt at least tries to bring spending excesses down.
Increase min wage, manufacturers will go : hmmn, i can get that same thing done overseas for 1/5 the wage cost & with no govt intervention or add on govt costs(ACC etc)
Thats why we dont have alot of manufacturing in NZ, and getting less every year . Its gone offshore or simply closed down.

Ecomonics 101 :we are a farm based economy : ie NOT A RICH COUNTRY.
Yet we expect the things that can can only be obtained with high govt spending .
The welfare state is not cheap to run.

Want the govt to stop spending more than it earns, heck thats a dead easy fix. they just stop spending..stop spending on us.
This has been going on since the 50's , give the masses what they want (handouts, infrastructure we cant afford) even if the country cant afford it.

Look at things from a world scale: say you have a farm based economy with wages at 5x - 10x the world average and out of control govt & city council spending. Whats going to happen to that country ?

Getting back to the original post: spending more than you earn actually does make us happy, not sad.
Why else would we borrow to buy expensive cars & big screen TV's

We don't have to be a "rich" country to be able to pay more, we just have to become a country of more skilled people who are able to earn more for what they do. We have to change from a farming/manufacturing country to a country that develops and exports its software/manufacturing skills as a service. We can develop and design products here and then license the rights to have them manufactured in Asia where hourly rates are much more affordable than our own.

1101
19-09-2014, 11:56 AM
Personally I don't agree with increasing the minimum wage ("just because") a

I'd agree.
But the downside is we have so many who simply cannot afford to live in NZ .
On current min wage, how can anyone afford to feed a family, pay horrendous AK rent, pay food & power costs etc

If the govt is handing out cash & subsidies for low wage families , then in effect isnt that the same thing done in a less efficient way?
I have a friend getting "working for Families" handouts. They used it to help pay for overseas family holidays .... :groan:

Webdevguy
19-09-2014, 12:22 PM
I'd agree.
But the downside is we have so many who simply cannot afford to live in NZ .
On current min wage, how can anyone afford to feed a family, pay horrendous AK rent, pay food & power costs etc

I agree, it is incredibly tough and very unfair for some couples, both of whom may be working 40 hour weeks on minimum pay as cleaners, supermarket shelf stackers, security guards etc but who still can't pay all the basic bills and feed a growing family. I think this is a situation where the employer could look at stepping in with some form of on the job learning courses ( similar to what MacDonalds have) that allow workers to up skill or learn new skills, get certified and earn more as a result. I know that hotel cleaners get paid minimum wage or maybe a bit more, for a job that is vital to our tourism economy. I would say that it would be preferable to give them additional training and additional skill sets and an option to get a better paying job than to pay more per hour than for a lowly skilled labour intensive job that is only worth $18 an hour.

I know a lot of these schemes have been trialled with previous governments , I still think this is a better direction to head than just to pay someone more in a job "just because it is expensive to live in Auckland".. it is always going to be expensive to live in Auckland compared to the rest of the country and low paid jobs are always going to be low paying jobs in an expensive city.

the_bogan
19-09-2014, 01:42 PM
Just a thought. If all the overseas companies exited New Zealand, would that mean over 60% unemployment?

Terry Porritt
19-09-2014, 02:52 PM
Just a thought. If all the overseas companies exited New Zealand, would that mean over 60% unemployment?

Most likely, if not more. NZ is between the devil and the deep blue sea. That's why good news has to be made out of even a deficit caused by an increase of 1.4 billion in profits going out of the country

"One of the reasons the current account deficit blew out by $1.4 billion to $2 billion in the June quarter actually reflects positive news about the economy."

But wouldn't it be nice if those profits actually stayed in the country.....but that is pie in the sky :groan:

B.M.
19-09-2014, 03:12 PM
Now this is what I call “Creative Accounting”.

5931

CliveM
19-09-2014, 03:27 PM
Please understand this. If the minimum wage increases then so does the cost of everything else. All other wages would also have to increase by the same percentage (no way is an experienced person going to accept being paid at the same rate as a 16 year old just starting out}. All prices of goods and services would also increase by the same percentage ( the cash to pay increased wages has to come from somewhere). In short the government gets more tax but the people are if anything worse off than they were. It is all smoke and mirrors and although more pay sounds good the nett effect is no real improvement for anyone, minimum wage workers would still be just as badly off as they are now. Any political party pushing a rise in minimum pay is just exploiting those foolish enough to be sucked in to get their vote.

Terry Porritt
19-09-2014, 03:57 PM
By the principle of reciprocity, if minimum wages were lowered then we would expect to see all other wages and prices of goods and services decrease by the same percentage.
In short the government gets less tax, but the people are if anything better off than they were...........................etc. :D

No. I think the increased profits due to lower costs would just be pocketed, and only some would be better off. :thumbs:

pctek
19-09-2014, 04:01 PM
Sorry, you haven't been paying attention. The way it is done by the Keyteam is to sell your employer's stuff, not your own. .

Looking at it as in NZ sells NZs stuff.
Like a household selling the households stuff.

And Labour do it too.

plod
19-09-2014, 04:24 PM
Please understand this. If the minimum wage increases then so does the cost of everything else. All other wages would also have to increase by the same percentage (no way is an experienced person going to accept being paid at the same rate as a 16 year old just starting out}. All prices of goods and services would also increase by the same percentage ( the cash to pay increased wages has to come from somewhere). In short the government gets more tax but the people are if anything worse off than they were. It is all smoke and mirrors and although more pay sounds good the nett effect is no real improvement for anyone, minimum wage workers would still be just as badly off as they are now. Any political party pushing a rise in minimum pay is just exploiting those foolish enough to be sucked in to get their vote.so if we decrease the min wage, will goods get cheaper

CliveM
19-09-2014, 05:22 PM
so if we decrease the min wage, will goods get cheaper

Strangely enough, yes they would providing all wages/salaries were reduced by the same percentage. Goods and services are cheaper in low wage ecomomies. . My point was there is no gain for anyone by legislating for an unrealistic minimum wage, it just does not and cannot improve the lot of the working population.

plod
19-09-2014, 05:29 PM
Strangely enough, yes they would providing all wages/salaries were reduced by the same percentage. Goods and services are cheaper in low wage ecomomies. . My point was there is no gain for anyone by legislating for an unrealistic minimum wage, it just does not and cannot improve the lot of the working population.
Increasing min wage would decrease the amount the government has to subsidise these people through accommodation allowances, family tax credits

R2x1
19-09-2014, 06:10 PM
So, if we could have the serfs and peasants working for nothing (living on what they can glean from the unmown verges as they wend their way homewards) we should be able to get all our goods and services really cheap? Great! Let's have it right away. This would enable us to give positive tax credits to the gentry to enable them to get a good course of genteel finishing school completed prior to their knighthoods being issued by Kingkey and his squad of fine upstanding colleagues. Obviously since the peasants won't be suffering all those pesky health issues caused by overweight issues, the savings could be passed on as CEO bonuses from whence it will trickle down, bestowing posterity on all,
Another major saving would be the total halt to redundancy and holiday payments since they would be tied to the minimum wage. Further, instead of paying out severance pay to non required ex-employees, the peasant could be sold to some other employer, boosting the economy to ever greater heights.
No doubt about it, there's a great time coming, by and by.

pctek
20-09-2014, 07:19 AM
You know, way back when, Henry Ford increased the workers pay from $2.34 a day to $5 a day.
There were screams from the board and shareholders, predicting doom to the company etc....
Henry said if they had money, they too could be consumers and buy cars, hence making the company better off.
And it happened.


Really most corporations now, it's fire the workers when things get a bit quiet, not cut the bloated CEO pay, or top managers pay.

rumpty
20-09-2014, 09:28 AM
You know, way back when, Henry Ford increased the workers pay from $2.34 a day to $5 a day.
There were screams from the board and shareholders, predicting doom to the company etc....
Henry said if they had money, they too could be consumers and buy cars, hence making the company better off.
And it happened.


Really most corporations now, it's fire the workers when things get a bit quiet, not cut the bloated CEO pay, or top managers pay.

That sounds about right to me.

Increasing the minimum wage is a move to a fairer society. Isn't that what we want?

Cicero
20-09-2014, 10:10 AM
The question must be asked who is more efficient at producing goods, the government or private enterprise.

CliveM
20-09-2014, 11:38 AM
That sounds about right to me.

Increasing the minimum wage is a move to a fairer society. Isn't that what we want?

Fords workers became more skilled and so deserved better pay than non skilled labour at the time. That has nothing to do with increasing pay across the board to every Tom Dick and Harry.

R2x1
20-09-2014, 12:52 PM
The question must be asked who is more efficient at stealing your goods and money, the government or private enterprise.

FTFY ;)

kahawai chaser
20-09-2014, 02:45 PM
Fords workers became more skilled and so deserved better pay than non skilled labour at the time. That has nothing to do with increasing pay across the board to every Tom Dick and Harry.

You are kind of right. I got paid higher, than some existing staff, for my first job because I have a radiochem and chemistry degree. I was constantly told by work colleagues at the time because of that.

kahawai chaser
20-09-2014, 02:56 PM
Another thing - Is the amount of non generational NZ's/foreigners slipping into what once were kiwi man's/women's job. Cousin of mine, a truckie, tells me they are invading the trucking business. This includes major companies like Fonterra, George Weston, etc. Niece tells me the same in the retail/petrol station/super market sector.

plod
20-09-2014, 02:58 PM
Another thing - Is the amount of non generational NZ's/foreigners slipping into what once were kiwi man's/women's job. Cousin of mine tells me they are invading the trucking business. This includes major companies like Fonterra, George Weston, etc. Niece tells me the same in the retail/petrol station/super market sector.Yep you're right. Indians have moved from dairies to z service stations. Oh thats dots not feathers

Cicero
20-09-2014, 04:22 PM
Yep you're right. Indians have moved from dairies to z service stations. Oh thats dots not feathers
And I am sure some of the Noel Leeming shops.

Webdevguy
21-09-2014, 11:41 AM
The question must be asked who is more efficient at producing goods, the government or private enterprise.

That would be the Govt/IRD. With private enterprise at least you have a choice of buying or not buying a product or service. With the IRD - You WILL pay tax or pay a penalty when you don't pay tax.

R2x1
21-09-2014, 12:30 PM
That would be the Govt/IRD. With private enterprise at least you have a choice of buying or not buying a product or service. With the IRD - You WILL pay tax or pay a penalty when you don't pay tax.

I suspect the "efficient" that Cicero was interested in is not the same as the Apple "efficient", quite the reverse in that the goal is to maximise the amount of goods for the money given. Apple is indeed like the IRD in that "money in" is the sole aim, value to the customer is irrelevant and there is a legal team to keep it that way. :D

Webdevguy
21-09-2014, 03:34 PM
I suspect the "efficient" that Cicero was interested in is not the same as the Apple "efficient", quite the reverse in that the goal is to maximise the amount of goods for the money given. Apple is indeed like the IRD in that "money in" is the sole aim, value to the customer is irrelevant and there is a legal team to keep it that way. :D

I wasn't refering to Apple I was just meaning big business in general. When you go to the supermarket you choose which supermarket you go to. When you walk down the aisle you choose which brand of what product you want to buy. No one is forcing you to take their product over another companies product.

When it comes to paying tax you don't have any choice. You pay it or you suffer the consequences.

The last part of your quote is complete bollux.

R2x1
21-09-2014, 04:14 PM
It's about comparing apples with apples. "Bollux" is all you can get :D

Cicero
21-09-2014, 05:52 PM
It's about comparing apples with apples. "Bollux" is all you can get :D

Must be a strange place in that vacuous cavity, called a head.

Is there any pain?

R2x1
21-09-2014, 08:30 PM
Only during full moon ;)

Cicero
21-09-2014, 08:35 PM
Only during full moon ;)
I take you throw in a bit of howling.?

gary67
21-09-2014, 08:59 PM
Economics National style sell everything now let's not think about the future

R2x1
21-09-2014, 09:54 PM
I take you throw in a bit of howling.?
But of course, doesn't everybody?