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View Full Version : Windows licensing costs in a race to the bottom of the barrel.



Webdevguy
27-02-2014, 03:22 PM
In the wake of building competition Microsoft sees lowering its OS licensing (http://windowsitpro.com/windows-81/microsoft-windows-race-to-the-bottom) costs to OEMs as the only way to compete with Google's Free Chrome OS and Android device makers.

That's going to hurt in the long run when the bulk of your revenue comes from OS licensing to third party OEMs. Windows does get a lot from Office but even that is declining as more users move away from traditional desktops.

Agent_24
27-02-2014, 07:15 PM
You heard it here first: http://semiaccurate.com/2013/12/09/tablet-oses-killed-windows-8-microsoft/ ;)

Digby
01-03-2014, 07:44 AM
You heard it here first: http://semiaccurate.com/2013/12/09/tablet-oses-killed-windows-8-microsoft/ ;)

A very interesting, sensational arrticle, even allowing for the typo in the first paragraph.

But he missed a major point

It is very hard for a company like Microsoft to compete with mobile OS's like Apple and Android which had a head start and in the case of Android were probably very low cost).

What would have happened if they had carried on with windows 7 ? would desktop and laptop sales have surged ?

Digby
01-03-2014, 07:47 AM
I some ways Microsoft deserve what they get.

I remember back in the 1980's and 90's companies like Novell were Multi-billion companies with their networking software that sat on top of Dos.

Then along came Windows 3.11 and added networking built-in - bye by Novell.

Agent_24
01-03-2014, 08:59 AM
It is very hard for a company like Microsoft to compete with mobile OS's like Apple and Android which had a head start and in the case of Android were probably very low cost).

They already had Windows Mobile which originally came out in 2000. So not sure you can say Android or even Apple had a head start.


What would have happened if they had carried on with windows 7 ? would desktop and laptop sales have surged ?

I don't think Windows 8 is the real reason behind declining sales. I'd say the reason is that with hardware advances over the last few years, most people now have pretty decent multi-core desktop machines and since most people aren't hardcore gamers, there has been no good reason for them to upgrade.

That and people who want something for casual use are more likely to buy a tablet now than a 2nd PC, they get the added benefit of mobility, and it's cheaper than a laptop, especially if you just want to watch youtube or something and don't really need a keyboard.

Though what the tablet hype guys seem to forget is that people are unlikely to abandon their desktop when they want to get some real work (tm) done, and will most likely have both devices.

Agent_24
01-03-2014, 09:01 AM
I some ways Microsoft deserve what they get.

I remember back in the 1980's and 90's companies like Novell were Multi-billion companies with their networking software that sat on top of Dos.

Then along came Windows 3.11 and added networking built-in - bye by Novell.

I don't really see how that figures. Novell made their software for an OS that needed it, then a new product came out that didn't. Why should Microsoft lose money to someone else when they can make more money selling their new OS instead?

Remember they are a big corporation, they aren't going to sacrifice sales to be 'nice' to some other company. I doubt Novell or anyone else would have done any different if they were in the same position.

Webdevguy
01-03-2014, 12:41 PM
A very interesting, sensational arrticle, even allowing for the typo in the first paragraph.

But he missed a major point

It is very hard for a company like Microsoft to compete with mobile OS's like Apple and Android which had a head start and in the case of Android were probably very low cost).

What would have happened if they had carried on with windows 7 ? would desktop and laptop sales have surged ?
Unlikely because people's computer using habits had already changed and were moving away from desktop computing

Webdevguy
01-03-2014, 12:44 PM
They already had Windows Mobile which originally came out in 2000. So not sure you can say Android or even Apple had a head start.



I don't think Windows 8 is the real reason behind declining sales. I'd say the reason is that with hardware advances over the last few years, most people now have pretty decent multi-core desktop machines and since most people aren't hardcore gamers, there has been no good reason for them to upgrade.

That and people who want something for casual use are more likely to buy a tablet now than a 2nd PC, they get the added benefit of mobility, and it's cheaper than a laptop, especially if you just want to watch youtube or something and don't really need a keyboard.

Though what the tablet hype guys seem to forget is that people are unlikely to abandon their desktop when they want to get some real work (tm) done, and will most likely have both devices.

Apple actually had the Newton Message pad back in the 90s. Windows did have Windows mobile but it never appealed to end users and never took off with developers.. So it crashed and burned.

icow
01-03-2014, 03:36 PM
To be fair you could say the newton crashed and burned for being unable to accurately and easily convert hand writing to text.

Webdevguy
01-03-2014, 09:26 PM
To be fair you could say the newton crashed and burned for being unable to accurately and easily convert hand writing to text.

It was also ahead of its time.

Tony
03-03-2014, 10:58 AM
even allowing for the typo in the first paragraph.What's the typo?

Digby
03-03-2014, 12:12 PM
"Windows has failed, PCs are dead, and the misery that is Windows 8 is to blame but why? There is one possibility that occurred to us that no SemiAccurate writer has seen posited yet, tablet OSes."

Spot the typo!

I am guilty of typos as I am always in a hurry, my time is limited and valuable. (to me)

dugimodo
03-03-2014, 12:20 PM
Windows has far from failed, declining in popularity perhaps but still has more market share than the alternatives. PC's are not dead, just changing form somewhat. A tablet IS a pc and does not replace the functionality of a laptop or desktop. Windows 8 certainly caused some negative feedback and probably is responsible for some lost sales but is hardly single handedly to blame for changes in what people are buying.

Why is it when people dislike something they declare it dead..

Tony
03-03-2014, 12:30 PM
"Windows has failed, PCs are dead, and the misery that is Windows 8 is to blame but why? There is one possibility that occurred to us that no SemiAccurate writer has seen posited yet, tablet OSes."

Spot the typo!

I am guilty of typos as I am always in a hurry, my time is limited and valuable. (to me)Do you mean "posited" should be "posted"? Posited is a perfectly good word. It means "put forward as fact or as a basis for argument", which is quite correct in the context. Or have I missed something else?

Digby
03-03-2014, 01:06 PM
Yes I thought it was supposed to be posted.
But I defer to your superior command of the English language.

Tony
03-03-2014, 01:08 PM
But I defer to your superior command of the English language.Or pedantry. :)

Digby
03-03-2014, 01:09 PM
Yes the shops of full of Windows 8 machines, and they ar esellgin a friend just bought a W8.1 laptop.

Mac still has the same market share !

As others have said its just that many people are buying smart phones or tablets for convenience or due to the fact that they can't handle maintain a desktop or laptop with malware, upgrades etc etc.

user
03-03-2014, 01:13 PM
Yes I thought it was supposed to be posted.
But I defer to your superior command of the English language.

Never mind - there is a minor mistake in the second paragraph though.

Webdevguy
03-03-2014, 01:21 PM
Yes the shops of full of Windows 8 machines, and they ar esellgin a friend just bought a W8.1 laptop.

Mac still has the same market share !

As others have said its just that many people are buying smart phones or tablets for convenience or due to the fact that they can't handle maintain a desktop or laptop with malware, upgrades etc etc.

Mac market share has increased since iPhones and iPads are Macs :)

Also why would I want to buy a desktop computer that is susceptible to malware when I can get one that isn't and still performs the day to day stuff that I want to do.

Of course I could also get an Android device and perform my day to day tasks.

Tony
03-03-2014, 01:43 PM
Never mind - there is a minor mistake in the second paragraph though.While I have my pedant hat on - do you mean "lets" s/be "let's", or "That for the record would be most computer related sites, Microsoft spends a lot and that has direct influence on content." should be punctuated differently : "That, for the record, would be most computer related sites. Microsoft spends a lot and that has a direct influence on content." That really is pedantry, and the extra commas could definitely be seen as optional. The split into two sentences is correct though, IMHO.

Digby
03-03-2014, 02:25 PM
Mac market share has increased since iPhones and iPads are Macs :)

Also why would I want to buy a desktop computer that is susceptible to malware when I can get one that isn't and still performs the day to day stuff that I want to do.



I dont think that it has increased by a market shattering amount.

Because you dont want to be sucked in by marketing hype ?
Because you want to run millions of programs rather than 10
Because you don't want to pay more for every identical component or accessory ?
Because just about every business run on Windows
Because all the games run on PC
Becasese you want to use PC World Forums

This needs to be diuscussed in another thread ?

Webdevguy
03-03-2014, 02:38 PM
I dont think that it has increased by a market shattering amount.

Because you dont want to be sucked in by marketing hype ?
Because you want to run millions of programs rather than 10
Because you don't want to pay more for every identical component or accessory ?
Because just about every business run on Windows
Because all the games run on PC
Becasese you want to use PC World Forums

This needs to be diuscussed in another thread ?

Well the Mac desktop marketshare has stayed fairly constant over the last 5-10 years at around 7% and Windows has stayed relatively constant at around 90% (http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8&qpcustomd=0) That's pretty much a given.

In the mobile tablet space iOS still holds about 52% (http://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx?qprid=8&qpcustomd=1) And Android comes in after that.

The parts that have changed is that while "every business" does run on Windows, business staff also use iPad, iPhone , Android devices to a lot of work when they are on the move. This is work that would have previously had to wait till they got back to the office to do.


Agreed, hardcore games do run on PC and probably will for the forseeable future. But those "hardcore" games also cost hundreds of millions to develop and only appeal to a select dedicated audience.
Mobile games can be developed for a mere 100K, and appeal to a vast global audience and successful games will often earn their developers 10k+ a day in revenue.

The bottom line is, mobile games are still games, they are also more cost efficient to develop and sell.

The catch with all of these changes is that the majority of consumers are not using Windows devices or PCs so there is less need for OEMs to make Windows PCs or buy Licenses from Microsoft because consumers are all buying devices that use other operating systems.

user
03-03-2014, 04:05 PM
While I have my pedant hat on - do you mean "lets" s/be "let's", or "That for the record would be most computer related sites, Microsoft spends a lot and that has direct influence on content." should be punctuated differently : "That, for the record, would be most computer related sites. Microsoft spends a lot and that has a direct influence on content." That really is pedantry, and the extra commas could definitely be seen as optional. The split into two sentences is correct though, IMHO.

I did mean the 'lets' and disregarded the lack of commas and wording otherwise.

Tony
03-03-2014, 04:23 PM
I did mean the 'lets' and disregarded the lack of commas and wording otherwise.So I suppose we should both now stop being an OT pedantic PITA. :)

Digby
04-03-2014, 07:35 AM
Yes things are getting really tough for Bill...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11213467

Webdevguy
04-03-2014, 09:07 AM
Yes things are getting really tough for Bill...

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=11213467

Indeed ;) but he's not Microsoft anymore ;-D

icow
04-03-2014, 09:28 AM
Yes and no.

Webdevguy
04-03-2014, 09:48 AM
Yes and no.

Trust me, he's not Microsoft any more. He's been out of the game for too long and the game is a fast changing one.

I'm thinking the only reason that they are considering bringing him back as a "consultant" is because they are not sure of Natya's credentials and because they don't know how to come from behind on a level playing field and they are running out of options.

When you are slow to change direction, are unable to bring out new software that works and less people are buying your software because they can use the oppositions stuff for free and none of your competition are afraid of you and decide on which direction to turn before you can....

how are you supposed to compete?

1101
04-03-2014, 10:13 AM
The parts that have changed is that while "every business" does run on Windows, business staff also use iPad, iPhone , Android devices to a lot of work when they are on the move. This is work that would have previously had to wait till they got back to the office to do.

.

Such as ?? serious question .
Staff in general would want to use there ph's for office work when away from they office
Excluding huge multinationals that can afford to have cust apps written for them, just what office work can ithings & androids be used for, aprt from the obvious email.


True , most office staff have a ithing or Andoid , but apart from email they are really limited in the business apps they can run, in a small to medium size business.
Many are using 5-10 year old software for their day to day operation. There is just no way it will run on a ithing or Android. They are better off using a 10" Win laptop that will run their software. Even Dos apps are still out there,used every day, being the backbone of some businesses.

Webdevguy
04-03-2014, 10:40 AM
Such as ?? serious question .
Staff in general would want to use there ph's for office work when away from they office
Excluding huge multinationals that can afford to have cust apps written for them, just what office work can ithings & androids be used for, aprt from the obvious email.


True , most office staff have a ithing or Andoid , but apart from email they are really limited in the business apps they can run, in a small to medium size business.
Many are using 5-10 year old software for their day to day operation. There is just no way it will run on a ithing or Android. They are better off using a 10" Win laptop that will run their software. Even Dos apps are still out there,used every day, being the backbone of some businesses.

Valid question :thumbs:

When compared to buying a big back end CRM package which may run into multi 10's of millions of dollars for a large corporate, an iPhone or Android custom app would be costing from $80,000 to less than $200K and probably only take 3-6 months to build so it can be much cheaper.

In some cases the apps will run in conjunction with existing CRM software. From what I've found the majority of phone apps tend to be used for customer facing tasks such as customer banking apps, airline booking apps, Xero accounting apps, financial advice apps, weather, ski reports that communicate with CRM servers at the back end.

I know that there are small businesses like plumbers or sparkys who are on the road all day who have apps designed to take their bookings, record their hours on the job and direct them to the next job and send out invoices to the previous job.

Large corporates regularly use the syncing capabilities of iPhone or Android to schedule daily appointments.


It's not that an app can't do the work but more of a case of how is the work done differently on a mobile device than it was on the desktop so one of the reasons an app might be limited in its initial functionality is because that was the way it was designed. The theory being that its better to take it one step at a time and get a few functions working then add more over time than to rush in with the kitchen sink and end up with an unworkable mess. This can be done incrementally over a few months.

Also, not all the apps are phone apps, a lot are larger format designed for tablets which let you do more.

dugimodo
04-03-2014, 07:14 PM
My work phone is a Nokia flip phone that I make and receive calls on - several years old and perfect for the task :)
I do carry my personal smartphone around though and find quite a lot of work related uses for it such as;
Navigating to sites I'm not familiar with
Taking photos of work sites for later reference - saves taking a camera and does a great job
I work at a desk but some of our field staff timesheet on their phones - no app just a website
It can load and read our task handbooks and equipment manuals - better suited to a tablet though with a decent screen
And I have google handy at all times for whatever.

Just a few tasks but useful and all default features of the phone without any special apps.
Still I don't believe desktops and laptops are dead and won't be for the foreseeable future, so I think MS need to try to keep their market share if they want to stay profitable.
If that means trying to match prices with the competition or experimenting with a free version of windows then it's a win for us consumers in my opinion.

Webdevguy
04-03-2014, 10:30 PM
My work phone is a Nokia flip phone that I make and receive calls on - several years old and perfect for the task :)
I do carry my personal smartphone around though and find quite a lot of work related uses for it such as;
Navigating to sites I'm not familiar with
Taking photos of work sites for later reference - saves taking a camera and does a great job
I work at a desk but some of our field staff timesheet on their phones - no app just a website
It can load and read our task handbooks and equipment manuals - better suited to a tablet though with a decent screen
And I have google handy at all times for whatever.

Just a few tasks but useful and all default features of the phone without any special apps.
Still I don't believe desktops and laptops are dead and won't be for the foreseeable future, so I think MS need to try to keep their market share if they want to stay profitable.
If that means trying to match prices with the competition or experimenting with a free version of windows then it's a win for us consumers in my opinion.

Agreed, it is definitely a win for the consumer although not a win for Microsoft's bottom line. Also desktops are not dead, they will just be relagated to more back office and heavy lifting.

As to MS keeping their share of the market, I'm not sure how they are going to do that if Apple and Google have the market share of hand helds between them and the market share for desktop PCs is declining at about 13% per year.