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View Full Version : So Key has finally lost my vote



DeSade
08-01-2013, 05:51 PM
http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10857719

R2x1
08-01-2013, 06:26 PM
So that bracket on the brim of Key's hat is actually a toilet roll holder?

Bobh
08-01-2013, 07:03 PM
Next General Elections are due at the end of 2014 I think.

prefect
08-01-2013, 07:05 PM
I really dont think Key gives a **** if he lost the next election. He would resign and go back into business and make ****loads more money.
We would just have to endure more communist party rule. Where the lazy bastards want something for nothing.

ruup
08-01-2013, 07:07 PM
To be expected,he doesn't care about ordinary kiwi's,never has and never will!

ChazTheGeek
08-01-2013, 07:09 PM
Politicians are in for themselves!

WalOne
08-01-2013, 07:19 PM
I really dont think Key gives a **** if he lost the next election. He would resign and go back into business and make ****loads more money.
We would just have to endure more communist party rule. Where the lazy bastards want something for nothing.

+1/2 We're socialist by definition, but I wouldn't say communist. :thumbs:

KarameaDave
08-01-2013, 07:23 PM
Our absentee PM, at his luxury digs in Hawaii, where he lives?
To hell with him

gary67
08-01-2013, 08:50 PM
I really dont think Key gives a **** if he lost the next election. He would resign and go back into business and make ****loads more money.
We would just have to endure more communist party rule. Where the lazy bastards want something for nothing.

Actually our useless PM should be put up against the wall, why are we still lingering in this dictatorship run by the big cheese JK? Why appoint a commission then decide you don't like the results it gives you because they won't help your rich buddies to get richer but will actually help the ordinary man or woman in the street to balance their books something this government can't be bothered doing. I always knew electing National would cost us all dearly and so far I have been proven right, but I can safely say I didn't vote in this dictator

johcar
08-01-2013, 08:51 PM
Well, if Labour and/or the Greens are the answer, it's a damn stupid question...

Can we vote for anarchy in 2014? Can't be worse than what we already have...

DeSade
08-01-2013, 09:09 PM
And that Johcar is my dilemma.

Not voting for the socialists in the Labour Party so they can give all my cash away to the bludgers and benefit fraudsters.
And the Greens don't have a firm grasp on fundamentals such as finance etc.

****ed if I know.

Digby
08-01-2013, 09:10 PM
Actually our useless PM should be put up against the wall, why are we still lingering in this dictatorship run by the big cheese JK? Why appoint a commission then decide you don't like the results it gives you because they won't help your rich buddies to get richer but will actually help the ordinary man or woman in the street to balance their books something this government can't be bothered doing. I always knew electing National would cost us all dearly and so far I have been proven right, but I can safely say I didn't vote in this dictator

Yes but how much more dearly would it have cost us if we had stayed with Labour ?
I think National has not put prices up anywhere near as much as Labour were planning.

Labour has us in the ets and were adding petrol taxes like crazy every year.

kenj
08-01-2013, 09:26 PM
Wow, all the Commies are coming out of the woodwork in this thread. I quite agree with you KarameaDave, Mr Key should let you have his holiday home for at least 3 weeks every year. After all, no one should have that much without sharing it with the hoi poloi, AKA The Great Unwashed. :devil

When I see that prune... Dr whotsit...you know, the co leader of the Greens, I immediately change my thoughts from labour to the good old fashioned protest vote. Whinny!!

That is why NZfirst get so many votes and why I haven't voted Labour for so many years. Mostly the Nats with the occasional NZfirst when they really piss me off.

Then of course there is the other co leader of the Greens...God help us from her?

Ken

notechyet
08-01-2013, 09:32 PM
To be expected,he doesn't care about ordinary kiwi's,never has and never will!
Yes we voted to have a money-trader for PM. He was clever enough to put the honey in front of us first. Ha..ha.. he got us!

Digby
08-01-2013, 09:50 PM
I think John Key does genuinly care.

If he has that 50 mil he earned as a money trader, he does not need the job.
He just wants to make a difference.

I just wish he would get back on track and be more upfront.
Ifs its about the CIA etc - then just say its a security problem and its secret!
If its about anything else, don't say I have forgotten, just tell the truth.
People like that.

And John, don't have anything to do with John Banks -he is bad news for National.

And sort out the teachers pay system to get them off Hekia's back.

QW.
08-01-2013, 10:32 PM
There is has been so many ****ups since National got into power that its not funny. More people have become unemployed than employed since Key took over from Labour.

The Error Guy
08-01-2013, 11:27 PM
Well, to be honest $12 a month is a huge cut, perhaps it would be better to make the cut in instalment reductions (1/3 per year perhaps?)

I do agree that key has pissed off a lot of people with certain decisions of his but I do understand that the proposed cut is quite big. Big or not there is a big monopoly in the ISP sector and the cut does need to happen, just not all at once I'd say.

mikebartnz
09-01-2013, 12:13 AM
Well, if Labour and/or the Greens are the answer, it's a damn stupid question...

Can we vote for anarchy in 2014? Can't be worse than what we already have...
:clap:D

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 01:18 AM
Think about it this way:
Half a million DSL installs
$22 per month
That's $11,000,000 per year, then reduce that by 50%
Trying to make back billions in infrastructure for FTTN / FTTH...

They're an independent company, why would you invest in something like that which is going to take you a century to make back?

Can't stand Chris Barton, he's a tool suffering from Tall Poppy Syndrome, who never writes anything semi-positive (All his articles are just him bitching and moaning, reminds me of a certain *somebody here), and he's pretty much the main reason why I never go to the NZ Herald anymore, stupid articles like that which don't stand up to any scrutiny.

paulw
09-01-2013, 07:20 AM
I really dont think Key gives a **** if he lost the next election. He would resign and go back into business and make ****loads more money.
We would just have to endure more communist party rule. Where the lazy bastards want something for nothing.

And of course he would expect a knighthood from it unless the next Gov does away with them which Labor may do if they get in again. Regardless of who gets in next time we're all screwed..

gary67
09-01-2013, 08:30 AM
There is has been so many ****ups since National got into power that its not funny. More people have become unemployed than employed since Key took over from Labour.

This idiot has forgotten important stuff, had tea with an even bigger idiot, bowed down to the CIA and taken like Elton John, doesn't listen to the people who voted him in. Enfact tell me something he HAS done successfully I can't find any examples, the country is worse off, unemployment is up, prices are up, wages are down, schools don't know whether are closing or not, teachers pay is still screwed up and you still think he is doing well?

God help us because know one else is and I'm not even a Christian

bk T
09-01-2013, 09:20 AM
... and you still think he is doing well? ...

Of course, prefect thinks he is doing EXTREMELY well. :D

KarameaDave
09-01-2013, 09:22 AM
I wash regularly, and have little desire to use Shonkeys Hawaiian home.
Just pointing out that he is not really a 'Kiwi'.
His interests lie elsewhere.

You guys are well brain-washed, though, that much is obvious.

johcar
09-01-2013, 09:30 AM
This idiot has forgotten important stuff, had tea with an even bigger idiot, bowed down to the CIA and taken like Elton John, doesn't listen to the people who voted him in. Enfact tell me something he HAS done successfully I can't find any examples, the country is worse off, unemployment is up, prices are up, wages are down, schools don't know whether are closing or not, teachers pay is still screwed up and you still think he is doing well?

God help us because know one else is and I'm not even a Christian

Gary, are you saying that you think the Greens and Labour could have done any better (economically-speaking)?

I don't particularly care about the 'scandals' stirred up by the rags that employ so-called journalists. They crop up no matter who's in power...

The rest of the world is STILL in a LOT more pain than we are - and we're part of that global economy, whether we like it or not. If they are suffering - unemployment overseas means no money to buy imports, which are the goods and services we have to sell - then we will suffer, because our market to sell into has reduced spending power. Therefore businesses in NZ who are in business to sell to overseas markets can't afford to employ more people, which means less money circulating in the NZ economy - and our economy suffers....

goodiesguy
09-01-2013, 10:14 AM
As of the next election, i'll be able to vote, and i'm ever so thankful I can put foward a vote to get this stupid ****er out of office (not sure if office is the right word for NZ politics, correct me if i'm wrong).

I personally at the moment am thinking of voting for the Conservative party, although i'm still looking around at which party has the "best" idea's. I know it's a Lose/Lose situation, but I've at least gotta find something good somewhere.

B.M.
09-01-2013, 10:31 AM
Personally, I don’t see any way out, given the way both Labour and National have stuffed the country.

Winnie was once a National Party prodigy though (who became disenchanted with their ever increasing “Left Leaning Policies” and set up New Zealand First) so he might be a possibility.

Then there are the Democrats/Conservative (not even sure what they call themselves) who get very little Media coverage but from what I can see are on the right path. Anybody throw more light on this outfit?

The Greens are just a bunch of luddites that collect the mentally deranged vote so they aren’t a consideration, although they will get a greater percentage of the vote as anyone with half a clue abandons ship and heads for Aus or elsewhere.

I think New Zealand’s Death Certificate has been signed, the country has been racially divided with separatist policies courtesy of Key and Co, and small business has been throttled with bureaucracy and red tape. All that’s left is Bureaucrats, Beneficiaries and a few farmers valiantly trying to support the whole thing. Of course their stock have been farting and in order to “Save the Planet” catalytic exhaust converters will need to be fitted to all animals or more tax paid. Legislation for this is in the pipeline and should be the last nail in the coffin.

So there you go, in the meantime I have a small heat wave to contend with, so I’d better make sure the Air Conditioning is working and there’s beer in the fridge. :D

bk T
09-01-2013, 10:38 AM
Personally, I don’t see any way out, given the way both Labour and National have stuffed the country ...

+ 1

I'm still waiting for a good leader to be born.

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 11:10 AM
Yeah I never thought I'd say this, but NZ First actually seem to be heading in the right direction with at least semi solid policies for the better good of the country as a whole. I'm probably looking towards them or the Conservatives.

Still, as it stands, for this article, I strongly believe its just more bitching and moaning from a writer with a solid history of it. Nothing to see here...

pcuser42
09-01-2013, 11:20 AM
Don't the Conservatives have Colin Craig as their leader? That immediately counts them out in my view.

QW.
09-01-2013, 11:24 AM
This idiot has forgotten important stuff, had tea with an even bigger idiot, bowed down to the CIA and taken like Elton John, doesn't listen to the people who voted him in. Enfact tell me something he HAS done successfully I can't find any examples, the country is worse off, unemployment is up, prices are up, wages are down, schools don't know whether are closing or not, teachers pay is still screwed up and you still think he is doing well?

God help us because know one else is and I'm not even a Christian

Pretty much sums it up quite well.

Digby
09-01-2013, 11:39 AM
Yeah I never thought I'd say this, but NZ First actually seem to be heading in the right direction with at least semi solid policies for the better good of the country as a whole. I'm probably looking towards them or the Conservatives.

Can you name anyone in NZ First aside from Winston and Brendan Horan.

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 11:39 AM
Don't the Conservatives have Colin Craig as their leader? That immediately counts them out in my view.

Why? What'd he do to you?


Can you name anyone in NZ First aside from Winston and Brendan Horan.
Nope, but I can't name anybody except for John Key and Paula Bennett in the National Party. Now that Helen is gone I dunno anybody except for Phil Twyford (Local MP) in Labour. I know labour have a few "Davids" but that's about it...

I don't see your point?

pcuser42
09-01-2013, 11:40 AM
Why? What'd he do to you?

He's a bit of an idiot and likes to retract statements...

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 11:52 AM
He's a bit of an idiot and likes to retract statements...

Hahaha name one politician who's not done likewise?
If that's your basis for not voting for somebody, you'd best not vote at all ;)

B.M.
09-01-2013, 12:25 PM
Yeah I never thought I'd say this, but NZ First actually seem to be heading in the right direction with at least semi solid policies for the better good of the country as a whole. I'm probably looking towards them or the Conservatives.

Still, as it stands, for this article, I strongly believe its just more bitching and moaning from a writer with a solid history of it. Nothing to see here...

Yes that’s how I see it. 2 out of 100 for NZ First, 1 out of 100 for Conservatives and minus values for the rest. :D

As for the article, and ignoring the messenger, what are your thoughts on the message? Possibly on this occasion he may have a point? :confused:

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 12:29 PM
Yes that’s how I see it. 2 out of 100 for NZ First, 1 out of 100 for Conservatives and minus values for the rest. :D
:D :D


As for the article, and ignoring the messenger, what are your thoughts on the message? Possibly on this occasion he may have a point? :confused:
Nup, I think he's missed the mark completely, again.

There are ISPs who are selling phone and broadband for $50 a month right, for 5GB.
Then you look at other ISPs like Telecom who have to pay the same wholesale cost, and sell 30GB for $75
Thats 25GB extra for $25 a month more.

Tell me where the *real* cost lies here. I can promise you it's *not* the wholesale cost an ISP pays that is the problem.

Finally, there are *many* users out there who are happy to pay a premium for a good quality product, it's not all just about the cost savings. I'm with 2talk paying a bit "extra" so I can have a bigger data cap (300GB) and I'm now also on VDSL2. I get faster speeds, and better pings (2talk routing is great!), more data, and I'm happy to pay that little bit extra for it.

I'm happy for somebody to prove me wrong, but the real issue here is not the wholesale cost, if you ask me ;)

EDIT: Clarifying: The wholesale charge talked about is the cost of a "Port" in the cabinet / exchange. Data (And the cost of it) being pushed over that circuit is always 100% independent from this.

mikebartnz
09-01-2013, 01:11 PM
Tell me where the *real* cost lies here. I can promise you it's *not* the wholesale cost an ISP pays that is the problem.
Without seeing any of the costs it is impossible to say but I dare say the commission had access to those costs when they made their decision but it does appear to be an unreasonable reduction so I am sorry but your promises don't really mean much until I see the figures which Chris Barton should have done.

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 01:38 PM
^^ You *can* see the costs. $22 a month currently. What more do you need to see? :p

Everything else on top of that is data, backhaul, and company infrastructure (Such as support, building rental, phones, accounts etc). Yet magically this is something that Flip is able to include, in their $50 for phone line and broadband packages, as well as including 5GB of data.

Everything else is pretty much 100% profit for ISPs as they milk the per-GB data costs.

B.M.
09-01-2013, 02:28 PM
Well ignoring the implications of the WTO and GATS etc. the Commerce Commission has found:

“that the wholesale price reduction from $21.46 a month to $8.93 a month is just and fair and actually fixes a long time rort perpetrated by Telecom, and now Chorus, to extract monopoly rents from the hapless telecommunications consumer”.

Ok, assuming that the Commerce Commission had done a competent job with its investigation I can’t see what the argument can be.

We are getting to see more and more of the government seeking direction on a matter and then when they don’t get the result that suits them simply over ruling it.

Off the top of my head there was the No Smacking Referendum where 87% of the voters were over ruled to appease another political party. Then the also very expensive Bain Case where an International Judge of some repute was told by a Tax Lawyer he was considering incorrect facts (whatever they are). Now we have the governments very own Commerce Commission being over ruled by the absentee Prime Minister.

It would seem that the only advice that Key takes is from the Waitangi Tribunal. :rolleyes:

gary67
09-01-2013, 02:35 PM
Or the CIA/FBI

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 02:38 PM
“that the wholesale price reduction from $21.46 a month to $8.93 a month is just and fair and actually fixes a long time rort perpetrated by Telecom, and now Chorus, to extract monopoly rents from the hapless telecommunications consumer”.

Ok, assuming that the Commerce Commission had done a competent job with its investigation I can’t see what the argument can be.
Aaaaah if only it was that clear-cut!

You see the quoted phrase there is what Chris Barton has written, not what the Comcom have said. This is from their official statement:

In applying the new cost-based approach, the Commission is required by the Act to benchmark the likely costs in New Zealand by examining prices in countries that calculate the relevant electronics and software costs in a specified way. If not satisfied with the benchmarked costs, industry parties can request that the Commission calculates the costs itself.

“Even though benchmarking seems a simple idea, we only found two other countries—Denmark and Sweden—that price similar services in the right way at similar quality levels,” said Telecommunications Commissioner, Dr Stephen Gale. “We would have preferred a larger sample set but that does not appear to be available.”
You see what he says there?
"We're not entirely convinced we should be doing it this way in the first place, and the fact we have to do it this way, there's only two other countries we based everything off, so it's a shitty result regardless".

Still, I'm open to other sides of the coin if the argument is convincing. The original NZ Herald article was written to get consumers all fired up, and focuses purely on a single aspect in order to do-so. It was most certainly not written to be technically accurate.

Lets look at the flip side of the coin (Flip, see what I did there, the ISP name...!)
Flip are able to provide 5GB of DSL at the current price for $50 included with a phone line
Telecom are doing phone + 30GB DSL for $75
Subtract 5GB, subtract the phone, and the base DSL costs (Basically subtract the $50) and you're left with Telecom charging $25 a month more for 25GB more of data.

Now you're looking at it from that perspective, which charges do you think seem more "fair" and which charges do you think seem more of a "long time rort"? ;)

B.M.
09-01-2013, 03:07 PM
This is from their official statement:



Ahhhhhh, I see, the Commission has come to a conclusion in accordance with an ‘Act of Parliament” and then excused themselves by saying the “Act” doesn’t give them enough scope to do the job thoroughly. grrrrrrrreat!

So what was the point of the investigation in the first place if the restrictions of an Act of Parliament leave the outcome debatable or inconclusive?

Another classic case of why NZ is going down the gurgler I guess.

Even so, the discrepancy between NZ and Sweden and Denmark who use the same pricing method is significant and needs addressing. :)

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 03:42 PM
In a nutshell yeah.

Now the discrepancy may potentially be worth looking at, but I can't say I know a great deal about Sweden or Denmark.

I can however, safely say, that when you look at it like this, I'm happy to pay my dues:

-- The equipment in the cabinets and exchanges has been upgraded I believe a grand total of 6x in total since Jetstream first became available in NZ in the year 2000.

-- There are 3,500 cabinets that went in in the last 3-odd years? Each costs $150,000 ballpark. That's half a billion dollars.

-- The equipment in there, not cheap. 3,500 cabinets (Not even counting exchanges) means each cabinet services well under 150 houses.

-- That means that where they're charging $22 a month, it's going to take a fully loaded cabinet 4 years to pay itself off for the initial investment of putting it there (But they're not all fully loaded, not by a long-shot)

-- Then we want them to go and invest in FTTH. How much is it again that people want to pay to get it installed? Nothing? Remember this is a *company* that's there to make money. They make money by selling you DSL. If they're not making money, what is the point of them being in business? I don't have shares in them but even I can see that, it's black and white really.

-- Now, considering the cost of data vs the wholesale DSL port cost (Previous post), then looking Fibre as providing faster speeds and the ability to basically blow your data cap in a few minutes, presuming that naturally we're going to start using more data (They've increased by at least 10% a year since they were released), isn't it worth us actually looking at the cost of data instead as being the main cost-culprit both now and in the future?

So I think the only thing that I actually agree with Chris Barton on is the first part, that the methodology that the Comcom had to use was stupid, as a result of their legislation, and they're kind of caught between a rock and a hard place.

The second point he makes I'm quite happy to say the aforementioned proves:
a) he's misdirected at best with his blame for where DSL is costing consumers the most
b) the decrease in price is going to severely hamstring the company from wanting to make further investments if that's how they're going to
c) he's got some kind of "tall poppy syndrome" and just doesn't like Telecom and cuts at them any chance he can get

The third point he makes further shows his ignorance, let me explain:
If I can offer you ADSL2+ at speeds of 24/1mbps, or VDSL2 at speeds of up to 50/10mbps, both are the same price, which would you choose? It's a no-brainer, you'd choose the faster
What if one of them was marginally more expensive? Which would you choose? It'd depend on if you were a budget-concious family wanting to get online for just the odd one or two things, or if you lived and breathed on the internet using it for games and video etc

Now lets add Fibre to the mix.
If all three of these cost the same, which would you choose:
a) ADSL2+ at 24/1mbps
b) VDSL2 at 50/10mbps
c) Fibre at 100/100mbps

It's a no-brainer, you'd choose Fibre.
What if they all offered the same amount of data per month, but each cost $20 more:
a) cost $50 a month
b) cost $70 a month
c) cost $90 a month

Which would you buy?
Again, it'd depend on your circumstances
So when you think about it, they could *very* easily price themselves out of the market meaning they'd NEVER make their money back, so they *have* to price it competitively or they won't get anybody changing over...

Remind me again why the Govt needs to get involved in that?

I mean, take the iPhone for example. Yeah we pay more for it over here in NZ than other countries, but people still buy it in their droves, don't they? Same for the Galaxy S3?
Government didn't need to step in and say "Heeeey Apple, come now, you can get it much cheaper overseas, you need to drop your price". Nope, they're not getting involved? Why? Because the market pretty much self-regulates... That's just the nature of the beast!

</rant>
:D

paulw
09-01-2013, 04:15 PM
Well put Chill..

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 04:29 PM
Well put Chill..
Thanks :D though I'm surprised I still had anybodies attention at the end of that rant ;)

lordnoddy
09-01-2013, 04:36 PM
Lol +1 I'm surprised I read it all ;) very nicely put Chill.

CliveM
09-01-2013, 05:18 PM
and + another 1 Chill.

There are far too many moaners who want everything for nothing, blame the government for everything and generally just pick holes at every perceived oportunity. It is easy to find fault it is a lot harder to come up with a better way of doing things.

mikebartnz
09-01-2013, 07:24 PM
^^ You *can* see the costs. $22 a month currently. What more do you need to see? :p

Everything else on top of that is data, backhaul, and company infrastructure (Such as support, building rental, phones, accounts etc). Yet magically this is something that Flip is able to include, in their $50 for phone line and broadband packages, as well as including 5GB of data.

Everything else is pretty much 100% profit for ISPs as they milk the per-GB data costs.
I am sorry Chill but you appear to be pulling numbers out of your hat. Where is the hard evidence on the costs involved.

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 07:57 PM
What costs?

EDIT: I can promise I'm not pulling anything outta my ass, so just let me know and I'll clarify and find you the prices ;)

prefect
09-01-2013, 08:10 PM
and + another 1 Chill.

There are far too many moaners who want everything for nothing, blame the government for everything and generally just pick holes at every perceived oportunity. It is easy to find fault it is a lot harder to come up with a better way of doing things.
x1

gary67
09-01-2013, 08:13 PM
x1
The blind leading the blind JK- his followers next he will be venerated as a God King

R2x1
09-01-2013, 08:21 PM
If telecom,chorus (or whatever alias they currently use) is involved costs will be excessive due to their extreme fondness for backing losers with the customers money. (Who has had more losing bets on their cellular systems?) The moment they were permitted into the UFB deal the rot was guaranteed to appear, which it promptly did.

-- The equipment in the cabinets and exchanges has been upgraded I believe a grand total of 6x in total since Jetstream first became available in NZ in the year 2000.
Perhaps if instead of putting the equipment in cabinets they mounted it on conveyors it could go straight from the "Wow. We should buy a lot of this!" meetings of the board to the recyclers without wearing out valuable bolts.

However, the chances of either the Gov't or Teledum seeing anything other than greed signs is pretty slim when other parties keep flooding them with betting stakes.

mikebartnz
09-01-2013, 08:24 PM
What costs?

EDIT: I can promise I'm not pulling anything outta my ass, so just let me know and I'll clarify and find you the prices ;)
Cost to supply the broadband what other costs did you think I meant as they are the only ones relevant in determining what is a fair price and so far I have seen no hard evidence anywhere as to what they are. I can only assume the commission had access to these.

prefect
09-01-2013, 08:26 PM
The blind leading the blind JK- his followers next he will be venerated as a God King
No but a knightship or lordship wouldn't go a miss.
Lord John Key of Parnell sounds good.

R2x1
09-01-2013, 08:30 PM
. . .

There are far too many realists who want something to be done right, but see the government f~~ everything and generally just kick holes in every perceived opportunity. It is laughably easy to find fault; it is almost impossible to come up with a sillier way of doing things. However, our fearless leaders will rise to the challenge and outdumb themselves. They always do. Our cricket team bases their strategy on them.

FTFY ;)

Chilling_Silence
09-01-2013, 08:42 PM
Perhaps if instead of putting the equipment in cabinets they mounted it on conveyors it could go straight from the "Wow. We should buy a lot of this!" meetings of the board to the recyclers without wearing out valuable bolts.

However, the chances of either the Gov't or Teledum seeing anything other than greed signs is pretty slim when other parties keep flooding them with betting stakes.
So let me get this straight, you would prefer to simply stay on ADSL1?
You'd prefer they didn't re-invest money into the infrastructure?
And finally, you'd prefer it was a significantly longer loop between you and the Exchange because there's no cabinets, which means even slower speeds still?!

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me?


Cost to supply the broadband what other costs did you think I meant as they are the only ones relevant in determining what is a fair price and so far I have seen no hard evidence anywhere as to what they are. I can only assume the commission had access to these.
It's publicly available on a myraid of sites :p
http://www.comcom.govt.nz/media-releases/detail/2012/commission-announces-proposed-wholesale-price-for-broadband-bitstream-service

The most significant part of the proposed full UBA price change is the reduction in the non-unbundled copper local loop (UCLL) component, which has reduced from $21.46 to $8.93 for the basic service.
That cost right there is the cost of a *port* to rent from Chorus. Data is on top.
I'm pretty confident there are other places on the Comcom website where you can pick up *complete* 100% details on all their pricing, from the cost of a port for BUBA vs EUBA, as well as the cost of sending out a Chorus technician if a fault is found, if no fault is found etc etc...

Have a good dig around there, pricing is all there, but the $22 pricing is the key point here which they're wanting to reduce. That's the price that I'm saying it's stupid to reduce. The Commerce Commission (On that page) are also saying "We have a far too small data set, for a stupidly retarded way of doing this, but we HAVE to provide a figure, so here it is".


The blind leading the blind JK- his followers next he will be venerated as a God King
Care to explain?

mikebartnz
09-01-2013, 09:08 PM
It's publicly available on a myraid of sites :p
http://www.comcom.govt.nz/media-releases/detail/2012/commission-announces-proposed-wholesale-price-for-broadband-bitstream-service

That cost right there is the cost of a *port* to rent from Chorus. Data is on top.
You don't seem to be reading what I have said properly as that gives the cost of the UCLL not the the cost to supply that UCLL by Chorus so there is no way of making an informed decision as to if the commission has been fair and until I see it I won't be deciding one way or another.

R2x1
09-01-2013, 09:09 PM
So let me get this straight, you would prefer to simply stay on ADSL1?
You'd prefer they didn't re-invest money into the infrastructure?
And finally, you'd prefer it was a significantly longer loop between you and the Exchange because there's no cabinets, which means even slower speeds still?!

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me?

I am all for having better internet performance. If it is done by efficient site design then maybe ADSL1 might do well. However, if the equipment they buy for the cabinets is averaging a 2 year life cycle, (from your figures) it might be better to let the preschoolers select the equipment. Telecom will as always do what is best for Telecom and if they have to spend a few millions to thwart the other providers, then the Telecom users will have to stump up the $$. The theory that cutting up telecom might stop the nonsense has not worked any better than it did with the Hydra.

If a clear headed decision was made to set equipment standards that last 6 years and the providers were set on a truly level pitch each setting their own equipment up we might get a little efficiency in the system. Admittedly with the government seemingly inevitably involved incompetence is assured. (If one postulated that the government were corrupt, at least it could be claimed that at least they were pretty good at that.)

Assume our whole broadband plan was devised by Billy Connolly and it makes some sense.

Greven
09-01-2013, 09:55 PM
If the equipment was only upgraded every 6 years, we would be even further behind the 8 ball.

The proposed cuts seem a bit excessive to me while Telecom are investing heavily in infrastructure upgrades, but I find it very scary to think that if John Key overrules the commerce commission this time, future governments are going to be inclined to do so again whenever it suits them.

Chilling_Silence
10-01-2013, 12:43 AM
So stick with dated technology for 6 years instead of upgrading it to the latest and greatest technology as it becomes available?
When we got ADSL in NZ it hadn't even been around for 12 months, we were one of the "pioneering" countries.

Seriously I can't believe some people... Hold us back further by not upgrading technology!?! Sounds like the same logic Chris Barton was using when he started complaining about roadworks for FTTH in one of his previous articles....

R2x1
10-01-2013, 01:01 AM
What we have is a few people getting a sporadic service - the costs of trying to have a fancy roof before you get a foundation in is more or less giving us what we've got. There is not a great market for the junked gear, and meanwhile a large part of the population is denied even an adequate ADSL1 level. Get something rolled out across the country before chasing rainbows. Rural areas have still got sloppy service, some of the time.
Let's cut off all the Mac users, so the bandwidth could be used by real people ;)

Chilling_Silence
10-01-2013, 01:11 AM
They're rural, it's part of the lifestyle they choose. It's simply not cost-effective to service them in a similar manner as urban users. If it was cost effective, and there was a profit to be made, don't you think somebody would be doing it?

I don't complain about not having 5 acres of land out the back of my place, but that's part of the lifestyle choice I make by living in urban Auckland. They choose to live rural, it's bound to happen... Same with delivering regular mail, takes longer, costs more.

Again, I fail to see the point there?

The Error Guy
10-01-2013, 03:34 AM
Well I think that settles it, the general view (which I support) is that the cuts are excessive given the fact chorus are spending big upgrading the network. Perhaps 3 years ago the cuts would have been approved but chorus are making good use of the money at this time.

Key is looking to over rule the commission BUT not just for fun - because there is a genuine reason, that being the cuts are excessive/money is being returned to the system SO Key isn't being a free minded lad over turning where he sees fit. He is making a calculated decision.

Right, now I have that out the way lets continue our network debate, R2, your move

:)

gary67
10-01-2013, 08:36 AM
No but a knightship or lordship wouldn't go a miss.
Lord John Key of Parnell sounds good.

Tui (yeah Right) Lord Dick of Pratsville it would have to be

gary67
10-01-2013, 08:37 AM
So let me get this straight, you would prefer to simply stay on ADSL1?
You'd prefer they didn't re-invest money into the infrastructure?
And finally, you'd prefer it was a significantly longer loop between you and the Exchange because there's no cabinets, which means even slower speeds still?!

Because that's what it sounds like you're saying to me?


It's publicly available on a myraid of sites :p
http://www.comcom.govt.nz/media-releases/detail/2012/commission-announces-proposed-wholesale-price-for-broadband-bitstream-service

That cost right there is the cost of a *port* to rent from Chorus. Data is on top.
I'm pretty confident there are other places on the Comcom website where you can pick up *complete* 100% details on all their pricing, from the cost of a port for BUBA vs EUBA, as well as the cost of sending out a Chorus technician if a fault is found, if no fault is found etc etc...

Have a good dig around there, pricing is all there, but the $22 pricing is the key point here which they're wanting to reduce. That's the price that I'm saying it's stupid to reduce. The Commerce Commission (On that page) are also saying "We have a far too small data set, for a stupidly retarded way of doing this, but we HAVE to provide a figure, so here it is".


Care to explain?

My comment was aimed at Prefects belief in a God like veneration of JK

Chilling_Silence
10-01-2013, 09:22 AM
You don't seem to be reading what I have said properly as that gives the cost of the UCLL not the the cost to supply that UCLL by Chorus so there is no way of making an informed decision as to if the commission has been fair and until I see it I won't be deciding one way or another.

Sorry mate, must have missed this last night.

Nah my point is more: It doesn't *really* matter what the raw cost is, the base DSL charges are not where we're being screwed.
Looking at Flip who can offer Phone + DSL + 5GB for $50 vs most other Telcos offering a straight phone line for $45, then compare all other ISPs with larger data packages, you see that where we're being screwed is the per-GB data.
My point is that is where we should be looking, and even the commerce commission are dragging their heels in this report.

That said, I think this is the file that you're after: http://www.chorus.co.nz/file/8550/167805.pdf

mikebartnz
10-01-2013, 12:08 PM
That said, I think this is the file that you're after: http://www.chorus.co.nz/file/8550/167805.pdf
That link isn't working properly at the moment so will try later thank you.

Chilling_Silence
10-01-2013, 12:34 PM
Odd, loads up here and just tried it at home and loads too? Try through megaproxy.com ?

mikebartnz
10-01-2013, 01:05 PM
Odd, loads up here and just tried it at home and loads too? Try through megaproxy.com ?
The link works but gets to 63% downloading the PDF and stalls.

Chilling_Silence
10-01-2013, 01:40 PM
Google is your friend ;)
http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/20132/UBA-Price-Review.pdf

mikebartnz
10-01-2013, 08:28 PM
Google is your friend ;)
http://media.nzherald.co.nz/webcontent/document/pdf/20132/UBA-Price-Review.pdf
Thanks Chill wil have to look at that another day though.

Digby
11-01-2013, 06:11 AM
Wow that's quite a big detailed document.

But I tried to understand some of it - it is very technical

You can just image all of our politcians being able to understands it

But a two page summary would have been great.

Alll I know is that letting Telecom (or Chorus) bid for the UFB scheme was a big mistake.

Telecom have over charged us on mobile and broadband (and probably fixed line) for years and they are far more clever than the governments advisers / laywers etc

paulw
11-01-2013, 07:41 AM
Wow that's quite a big detailed document.

But I tried to understand some of it - it is very technical

You can just image all of our politcians being able to understands it

But a two page summary would have been great.

Alll I know is that letting Telecom (or Chorus) bid for the UFB scheme was a big mistake.

Telecom have over charged us on mobile and broadband (and probably fixed line) for years and they are far more clever than the governments advisers / laywers etc
\
So you would leave it up the Vodafone and the money grabbing power companies to provide fiber??

Chilling_Silence
11-01-2013, 08:34 AM
Mmm and no I don't believe its a derailment. My point is that if a regular phone line base costs around $45 and yet companies can do basic phone and broadband for $50, wouldn't you use that to assume the current pricing is "decent"?
Its the data that's the prohibiting factor.

Allowing Telecom to bid meant we didn't have the duplication of a lot of infrastructure. Mobile networks are a little different, they don't require every single road they service to be overhauled. Fiber does. NZ simply isn't big enough for that kind of duplication.

Digby
11-01-2013, 01:11 PM
So if Telecom doing the ufb does not result in duplication, then we woull expect much lower charges from them ?

Also why do we accept this $45.00 land-line fee as acceptable?

If companies can provide nakedboad band for only a few dollars more, then it make the $45.00 landline fee look scandalous.

After it was built years ago and paid for years ago.

Now all they ahve to do is maintain it.

Chilling_Silence
11-01-2013, 01:58 PM
Lower than it would otherwise be if they had to make up lost money between split companies, because they're both trying to do FTTH. Chorus was going to be doing FTTH anyway, as they had most of the infrastructure there with FTTN through Cabinetization.

Imagine there's 4.5 million people in this country, and you (Pretending you're Acme Co) price your FTTH packages starting from $60 a month, so that you'll recoup your investment / infrastructure layout costs in about 6-7 years.
Now, imagine that's split between two big competing companies, Chorus and Acme Co., both want to recoup their investment in under 10 years, and both have a 50/50 split. That means that the package cost would be around $80 in order to recoup it in 10 years.

Hypothetical numbers all across the board there but you get the point.

At the moment, Naked Broadband *costs* an additional $20 over and above the clothed broadband (It may be $19-ish but we'll say $20). Basically, raw cost to an ISP for Naked DSL is around $45 + data. Clothed DSL is around $25 + data. Figures are rounded, but ballpark, gives you an idea... This is taken from discussions with just under half a dozen ISPs in the past 12 months :) Some also get marginally better rates than others depending on volume, but not by much (That said, when you're talking *volume*, even just $2 is a significant saving if you've got over 10,000 customers!)

Now, you're mostly correct, the landline phone infrastructure was built decades ago, but I know for a fact the lines that are out my way are *shockingly awful* already after only 25 years... But yeah maintenance is the main part. However, on top of that, you also have the cost of the actual DSLAMs and things that go into the exchanges / cabinets. $150,000 is the ballpark cost of each of the 3,500 roadside "whisper" cabinets that Chorus have deployed.

Why do we accept $45? I dunno, probably the same reason we accept that $1,200 for an iPhone is an "Acceptable" price. Not everybody gets one though, but not everybody has a home line now either and many are opting for just a Cellphone.

Food for thought ;)

B.M.
11-01-2013, 02:43 PM
Probably a dumb question, but why aren’t we working totally through Mobile Networks?

From where I sit I’d guess that a Pole with a Cell Site would come cheaper than a heap of Cabinets and Cables? :confused:

Chilling_Silence
11-01-2013, 02:46 PM
Nah not a dumb question at all.

It kind of would be better in some regards, especially with LTE networks in the states, many people are opting to do just that (With the exception of the cost of 4G data being higher and it simply falling back to 3G speeds).
However there are things like latency to take into account which are infinitely better over *DSL or Fibre, but if you take a look at the RBI here in NZ, I believe a lot of that is going to be over 3G :)

KarameaDave
11-01-2013, 03:28 PM
As regards the RBI, it is supposed to involve the installation of 2 (apparently) cell sites here.
This could lead to slower speeds for everyone here, as Karamea is not fibre-connected
to the rest of you, it all, PSTN, ADSL (and any future Cellular backhaul)
would have to go out on the microwave? link to Westport, I believe.
That is why they intend to run fibre over the Karamea bluff (that'll be fun!)
as part of the RBI rollout (according to one document I've seen).
If this is the case our speeds here will decrease less in busy times
as there will be less of a bottle-neck (the microwave link).
There is no way this fibre or the cell sites would happen without the RBI
for that much I will be grateful.
Now that I've worn out the ( and the )
I'll leave you all in piece. :D

Cicero
12-01-2013, 01:37 PM
Getting back to Key, as it has been said, voting in the first only encourages them.
.