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Richard Morriss
28-11-2012, 09:39 AM
I have a Dell Inspiron Mini running Windows 7 Starter. It will not allow me to run Windows Live Update. When I go through Control Panel to choose Updates it brings up a window asking me to "Check for Updates." When I go OK it tells me it can't run Windows Update as the service is not running, and suggests I reboot. That does not help. I have gone direct to Microsoft security/updates but that always brings me back to the Check for Updates window and the same result. In the 3-odd years I have had this netbook I don't thiink it has ever had an update. I use Norton 360 for security etc, and that is fully up to date.

Does anyone know how to fix this?

Thanks,
Richard

linw
28-11-2012, 10:02 AM
Go here http://support.microsoft.com/kb/2509997

First try Method 8.

Good luck.

1101
28-11-2012, 10:15 AM
it tells me it can't run Windows Update as the service is not running

This one might going to be tricky.
1st : remove Norton & run Nortons cleanup util.
2nd download malwarebytes & a GOOD AV program & scan the laptop
start-run-services.msc : windows update:start (make sure its not et to disable)

Last PC is saw with Update service that wouldn't run, it had permission issues with some registry entries.
You could try searching google for a similar fix as a last resort if no else has a easier option

Zara Baxter
28-11-2012, 10:31 AM
1101: That's really not very helpful. Like it or not, Norton 360 is an effective security program. And I know many don't like it, but independent testing, such as av-test.org (andreas Marx has been testing since 1998 that I know of, and possibly longer) and virusbtn.com (testing just as long) both rank it very highly. Both are transparent about their methodology and take suggestions and questions.

You can run Malwarebytes antimalware alongside Norton 360 without problem.

And yes, there are many other effective antivirus programs. Virus Bulletin at the link above, and Andreas Marx at AV Test regularly test on multiple platforms. I'd always recommend that people only pick those ranked highly at BOTH. But dismissing a product that ranks highly at both - and is not the proximal cause of the problem - is ... well, counterproductive.


The registry stuff? Yeah, that's useful.

Speedy Gonzales
28-11-2012, 10:32 AM
Get this then run it as admin. Tick all options except the last one. Then click on scan (http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/download/farbar-service-scanner/)

Copy and paste what comes up in here. We'll see if any services are missing

wainuitech
28-11-2012, 11:19 AM
Norton 360 is an effective security program. And I know many don't like it, but independent testing, such as av-test.org (andreas Marx has been testing since 1998 that I know of, and possibly longer) and virusbtn.com (testing just as long) both rank it very highly. Both are transparent about their methodology and take suggestions and questions.

The registry stuff? Yeah, that's useful. Lab tests dont mean a lot , they cant copy real world usage -- Ask all the people who I've seen and many techs as well that do the same sort of work with corrupted and infected PC's due to Having Norton 360 or some other Norton products and they'll all tell you its rubbish and the computers run much better once its been removed. I've done many tests myself, and Norton is no where as good at detecting infections as some other AV's.

As for the Registry Comment -- What was written is correct -- if 1101 had put change this that or some other reg key/settings, and anyone reading doesn't know what they are doing they can do more damage than good, and make the PC unbootable. So giving advise that the reg may be faulty is only a general guide line to the problem.

Question: If you suggested something saying it "would" fix the problem and the person did it, and it turned their PC into a total mess - Would YOU be responsible enough to pay to have it fixed ?


But dismissing a product that ranks highly at both - and is not the proximal cause of the problem - is ... well, counterproductive.

And you have proof or some knowledge that Norton is not the actual cause --- How did you come to that conclusion ?


Edited: Just today I have a customers PC here now, its a Dell, Had Norton INC on it, wouldn't run any updates and was slow as a wet week -- Removed Norton at their place and what do you know, Updates came through instantly. The PC was faster, but still unstable in its operation. Brought it back to the workshop - Doing a scan right now, and so far nod32 has found 17 infections that Norton didn't detect.

Speedy Gonzales
28-11-2012, 11:23 AM
I visit the MS forums often. Just the other day someone had 360 installed and trojans went straight through it lol. Yeah a good program alright :p

wainuitech
28-11-2012, 11:28 AM
Yep Speedy, The PC I Mentioned above, at least 5 Trojans so far.

I LOVE Norton -- brings in work :D

Speedy Gonzales
28-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Think I'll stick with windows firewall.

All of these separate firewalls have too many probs. And it doesnt matter what version you install, it'll have probs or crash. From what I've seen so far (just on the MS answers site), Mcafee is the WORST. It blocks nearly anything and everything.

It usually crashes netio.sys, blocks emails or something. Kaspersky can block webcams - it can stop them from working (I used teamviewer once to fix someones cam - Uninstalled Kaspersky, it was up and running again). Bitdefender, NIS, Norton 360 (this and NIS are common casues of crashes). So, is Bitdefender

You may as well have nothing at all :p

Zara Baxter
28-11-2012, 11:35 AM
Lab tests dont mean a lot , they cant copy real world usage

So you have specific criticisms of Andreas Marx method? Please do send them to him. He altered his methodology some years back in response to some of my suggetions, and I'm sure he'd welcome further ways to ensure his real-world testing is effective. Because he does do testing as close to real-world as he can.


Ask all the people who I've seen and many techs as well that do the same sort of work with corrupted and infected PC's due to Having Norton 360 or some other Norton products and they'll all tell you its rubbish and the computers run much better once its been removed. I've done many tests myself, and Norton is no where as good at detecting infections as some other AV's.

Norton's used to be horrifically resource-munching, but it's improved in recent years. I think a lot of people still hang onto an idea of Norton's from that era, TBH. Not saying you, or the techs you speak to, fit that bill, BTW.

As far as I'm concerned, where the problem is -not- the antivirus, in this case, recommending someone ditch their perfectly function security product to -spend their hard earned cash- on another product is irresponsible.



As for the Registry Comment -- What was written is correct -- if 1101 had put change this that or some other reg key/settings, and anyone reading doesn't know what they are doing they can do more damage than good, and make the PC unbootable. So giving advise that the reg may be faulty is only a general guide line to the problem.


Of course. I didn't say otherwise. I was saying the registry stuff is useful - it's very useful to know that someone else with that problem found that a solution and gives the question asker somewhere to look.



Question: If you suggested something saying it "would" fix the problem and the person did it, and it turned their PC into a total mess - Would YOU be responsible enough to pay to have it fixed ?


I wouldn't tell someone something 'would' fix their problem.



And you have proof or some knowledge that Norton is not the actual cause --- How did you come to that conclusion ?


I didn't. 1101 did. If you check that answer, the steps he suggests after Norton's in no way require Norton's to be removed. 1101 apparently didn't believe it to be the proximal cause.



Edited: Just today I have a customers PC here now, its a Dell, Had Norton INC on it, wouldn't run any updates and was slow as a wet week -- Removed Norton at their place and what do you know, Updates came through instantly. The PC was faster, but still unstable in its operation. Brought it back to the workshop - Doing a scan right now, and so far nod32 has found 17 infections that Norton didn't detect.

Sure. And if the asker wants to try turning Norton 360 off to check if updates work, it's certainly worth a go.

Zara Baxter
28-11-2012, 11:37 AM
I visit the MS forums often. Just the other day someone had 360 installed and trojans went straight through it lol. Yeah a good program alright :p

The thing about Trojans is that they (still) go through most AV. Different trojans for different AV. I'd always recommend Antimalware in addition to an AV, for that reason, FWIW.

Nhashon
28-11-2012, 11:38 AM
Lab tests dont mean a lot , they cant copy real world usage -- Ask all the people who I've seen and many techs as well that do the same sort of work with corrupted and infected PC's due to Having Norton 360 or some other Norton products and they'll all tell you its rubbish and the computers run much better once its been removed. I've done many tests myself, and Norton is no where as good at detecting infections as some other AV's.

As for the Registry Comment -- What was written is correct -- if 1101 had put change this that or some other reg key/settings, and anyone reading doesn't know what they are doing they can do more damage than good, and make the PC unbootable. So giving advise that the reg may be faulty is only a general guide line to the problem.

Question: If you suggested something saying it "would" fix the problem and the person did it, and it turned their PC into a total mess - Would YOU be responsible enough to pay to have it fixed ?

And you have proof or some knowledge that Norton is not the actual cause --- How did you come to that conclusion ?



Here is my suggestion - well wainuitech , i wouldnt say that you are wrong , i personally agree with Zara Baxter , i think shes is saying the right thing norton 360 is an effective security program , but i think she would also say that no antivirus is Totally Perfect which means even sometimes malwarebytes , spybot ,est Nod 32 can not detected viruses because the prgram is not well made to tackle it or simply not being up to date with the latest virus defintions . I know people have had bad experiences with Nortons , and i used to have it , but not know . I have avast free edition which i find it to be effective similar to Norton . Also I would say I still believe avast like other antivirus software is not perfect but i think at atleast I have antivirus and good firewall , and i have my computer up to date with virus defintion ,security and software . I look to be in good condtion .

So im here to support zara baxter , because i think she is a person who i can trust and i think she is helping people out here . So go Nortons .

wainuitech
28-11-2012, 12:05 PM
Sure. And if the asker wants to try turning Norton 360 off to check if updates work, it's certainly worth a go. Been there done that. DIDN"T work.

First thing I did was turn Off Norton, But really even when turning it off by its own settings its not fully turned off (any person who has worked with Nortons for a while can tell you that). Simply turning it off made no difference at all. I suggested we uninstall it and see what happens, they said go for it, as soon as it was uninstalled things started working.

Just looking at what the PC was doing (or not doing in this case) seen it countless times before, was 95% certain it was a corrupted Norton.

Once Norton was removed in front of the customer, the exact words were -- Are you able to fix the computer ?-- And if so don't put back that ( polite version) Norton Software -- the real wording was F***ken Sh*t ( not to hard to guess ) ;)


Guess that's where actual real world experience and seeing problems like this daily comes in.

Anyone can read reports and come to conclusions, but actually doing something and having experience can often contradict what's written.

NO antivirus is perfect, but when magazines push certain brands and claim its the best that's really false advertising. The general public believe whats written, and often end up paying for it, due to false claims.


Andreas Marx method .......Because he does do testing as close to real-world as he can.
AND theres the wording " as close to real-world" No One can actually create real world tests of the average user.

If Norton is so good, then please explain as to why so many people have problems and removing it the problems suddenly disappear, and so many people still get infections. Its not just minor 1 or 2 but many ???

PS: that PC I'm Scanning with Nod32-- Now up to 27 Infections 9 of which are Trojans and several other nasties --- Real good software from the "best" :lol:

Just seems that going by your comments, that all the techs world wide, people who fix computers, and thousands of people that have problems with Norton are all wrong, simply because some lab tests say its the best.:illogical

Zara Baxter
28-11-2012, 12:18 PM
Been there done that. DIDN"T work.

I wasn't suggesting it for you, but for the asker. Taking Norton's off is working for you - hence my "sure".



Guess that's where actual real world experience and seeing problems like this daily comes in.


If Norton is the problem, then that will come to light. For me, this really isn't about Norton, even though you seem to think it is.

No matter what your AV, in this circumstance, running a full scan and antimalwarebytes antimalware, then trying to run Windows Update, check that there's no windows services corruption, etc, are all really simple and straighforward ways to try and address the problem.

Suggesting someone remove their current AV, whatever it is, and *buy a new one*, as a first step? That's really not useful. I stand by that. You can scan with additional products without needing to remove your existing product. that's what housecall does, what antimalwarebytes antimalware does, etc.



NO antivirus is perfect, but when magazines push certain brands and claim its the best that's really false advertising. The general public believe whats written, and often end up paying for it, due to false claims.


I have never claimed, nor would I ever claim, or allow a magazine I published to claim, that any security was perfect. I have refused to publish tests when the methodology is faulty.

It's in the nature of our business to recommend products.



AND theres the wording " as close to real-world" No One can actually create real world tests of the average user.


Each user is unique. Of course you can't. But as I say, he tqakes suggestions about improvements. By all means suggest them.



If Norton is so good, then please explain as to why so many people have problems and removing it the problems suddenly disappear, and so many people still get infections. Its not just minor 1 or 2 but many ???


Market share and it's widespread use by people with little tech knowledge contributes, don't you think?

Every AV has weak spots. Every single one. There's no such thing as 100% detection.

Zara Baxter
28-11-2012, 12:25 PM
ps: Wainuitech - I don't in any way mean to demean your experience. I'm sure you see those problems. The only issue I have is with removing the existing AV, whatever it is, and the purchase of a new product being recommended as a first step before other solutions are tried. That costs real people money, and it may be unneccesary, and that pisses me off.

pps. I know you didn't check those links, because if you did, you would be having a good chuckle right now.

ppps: I have several times successfully faced down lawsuits over my product recommendations when I used to test AV software, back before variants and worms became the norm and you needed vastly more expensive tech. AV companies are litigious, but I never let that stop me. I don't and never will take this stuff lightly.

1101
28-11-2012, 12:47 PM
My suggestion about removing Norton, is based on actual experience . I NEVER had a customer complain after I removed Norton.
Never.....


Norton has caused more issues than ALL the other AV software combined, Im sure the other techs here would agree with that.
When Norton is causing issues, disabling it wont remedy the issue. It has to be removed.(again, actual experience )
We used to sell Norton , many years ago. I wish it was still a good product. its simply isnt.

Would you trust any Software company that cant be trusted with your credit card details ??(& got fined for this in the US)

wainuitech
28-11-2012, 12:47 PM
Before this goes to far, best clear up one thing:

Suggesting someone remove their current AV, whatever it is, and *buy a new one*, as a first step? That's really not useful. I stand by that. You can scan with additional products without needing to remove your existing product. that's what housecall does, what antimalwarebytes antimalware does, etc.
What I do is determine what has caused the problem.

Sometimes its not Nortons, other times it is.

"If" its Norton, then I will advise the customer as to what caused the problem, and give recommendations.

I also advise that If Norton (or any other Security program for that matter) has caused the problem then putting it back on again will more than likely make the problem reoccur at some time and they'll be right back where they started ( this is from Experience with Norton and McAfee doing exactly that).

I then give several suggestions as to what to install, either free or paid software. Along with Free antimalware programs, show them how to use it etc.

Had it happen a few times where the customer wanted their Paid, but corrupted causing software put back - Then within a fortnight back again to remove it at their request because it did exactly what I said it may do ( re-corrupt).

I don't automatically say you have to buy Product what ever, I give them a choice and its up to them as to what they want to do.

As for this thread--- Theres one simple test that could be done... Remove Norton - see if the problem is fixed - if it is, then Norton was the cause, if Not then Norton can be reinstalled after the problem is resolved if so wished. Simple :D

Zara Baxter
28-11-2012, 12:49 PM
As for this thread--- Theres one simple test that could be done... Remove Norton - see if the problem is fixed - if it is, then Norton was the cause, if Not then Norton can be reinstalled after the problem is resolved if so wished. Simple :D

Yep!

(Although, sometimes just turning it off to allow one faulty fix through is enough; if it's never had the problem before, it may be a just-this-once thing)

bevy121
28-11-2012, 12:50 PM
Market share and it's widespread use by people with little tech knowledge

Exactly!

The fact is Nortons is pre installed on just about any computer the average 'people with little tech knowledge' buy to begin with

They then face the problem of what to do when "subscription expired" pops up in 3 months (or whenever).

Of course, a lot do the easiest thing - they pay the money!!

and so perpetuates it's widespread use by people with little tech knowledge.

Eset is much better at it's job, no doubt about it

CYaBro
28-11-2012, 01:07 PM
Exactly!

The fact is Nortons is pre installed on just about any computer the average 'people with little tech knowledge' buy to begin with

They then face the problem of what to do when "subscription expired" pops up in 3 months (or whenever).

Of course, a lot do the easiest thing - they pay the money!!

and so perpetuates it's widespread use by people with little tech knowledge.

Eset is much better at it's job, no doubt about it

Yea, if Norton wasn't supplied on pretty much all new computers, as a 90 day trial, then I doubt many people would use it at all.
Also the sales people at the toaster shops trying to push it when you buy a new computer doesn't help. :D

Whenever we get a new machine for a customer, that has a Norton trial on it, we'll remove that and put on a 90-day trial of Eset instead. (if they haven't bought it already or asked for a free AV program)

Renegade
28-11-2012, 01:48 PM
What's with all these Win7 Update failures lately? I've looked at 3 in the last week. First one had 1 specific update fail, 2nd hadn't been updating since October, changing to Google's DNS fixed that one, and the 3rd looks like a nightmare

Speedy Gonzales
28-11-2012, 02:06 PM
Usually if something like a service is missing /or not running , malware may have removed it. Rootkits can also remove / delete services. When I went back to MS answers, the users there were full of rootkits. Within 3-4 days (while I was there) there must have been like 10-15 people who were getting FFFFFFFE and F errors trying to update windows. These errors are a sign of a rootkit infection. After running tdsskiller, they were able to update windows.

If thats happening to you Renegdae get that farbar service scanner. That'll tell you if any services are missing. And if there are services missing, thats the reason for the error/s

Renegade
28-11-2012, 02:11 PM
Their PC has a lot of browser toolbars, like Babylon and other crap so they're probably nicely infected. Will pass the info on, they might go for a system recovery if it's gonna take too long to fix.

JAYMCG
02-12-2012, 07:02 PM
windows updates OFF and Microsoft Security Essentials and i never have a problem :)