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View Full Version : Whats with the Blame someone #$%* lately??



pctek
21-09-2011, 07:56 AM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/business/money/5655148/Boss-broke-after-worker-hurt-in-6m-fall

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10753244

somebody
21-09-2011, 08:43 AM
It's never your fault - it's always someone else's fault. It not a new phenomenon - look back at all the media coverage around police chases, the ridiculous McDonalds lawsuits in the US, etc. etc.

prefect
21-09-2011, 09:08 AM
In a workshop they are called some ****. Its always someone elses fault.

Gobe1
21-09-2011, 09:28 AM
In a workshop they are called some ****. Its always someone elses fault.

some ****, i know him, he is young ****'s brother, or other ****'s cousin

Bobh
21-09-2011, 10:23 AM
I thought that ACC took away the right to sue. :confused:

I guess that Marmic Installations did commit an offence under safety regulations and reparation as well as a fine can be ordered by the court.

pctek
21-09-2011, 10:27 AM
1)How do they ensure safety? Follow him around all day to see if he's standing on the ladder/roof right??

2)How do scientists, who can't actually predict earthquakes, predict an earthquake. Or should they just put out random warnings every week in case of one?

It's crazy. Gone too far.........

Gobe1
21-09-2011, 10:38 AM
2)How do scientists, who can't actually predict earthquakes, predict an earthquake. Or should they just put out random warnings every week in case of one?

It's crazy. Gone too far.........

Yeah i thought it was just New Zealand that did stupid things like that

Bobh
21-09-2011, 10:52 AM
I would think that predicting earthquakes is much harder than forecasting the weather. The weather experts often get their forecasts wrong for reasons beyond their control. Do we punish weather forcasters for getting their forecasts wrong. If we did then our jails would be full of weather forecasters, leaving nobody to forecast the weather.

Scientists in Italy must live in fear of getting things wrong. This could hamper the advancement of scientific exploration and experimentation.

Italy does need to look at their building codes.

PaulD
21-09-2011, 10:57 AM
1)How do they ensure safety? Follow him around all day to see if he's standing on the ladder/roof right??

It's crazy. Gone too far.........

The starting point would be to ask if the installer was even supplied with suitable safety gear.

This has already been covered here http://pressf1.pcworld.co.nz/showthread.php?102599-No-Sky-For-This-Guy.

If "rough as guts" Metla can't see a problem with using a safety harness maybe Sky should be forced to pay installers a rate that covers doing the job safely.

gary67
21-09-2011, 11:36 AM
The question begs to be asked How is a lone installer meant to tie off a harness and rope system over a roof that high, and as I know from experience you cannot secure a ladder without first climbing it. But then again I do see some dodgy practices here, wooden scaffolding anyone?

Metla
21-09-2011, 11:44 AM
The question begs to be asked How is a lone installer meant to tie off a harness and rope system over a roof that high, and as I know from experience you cannot secure a ladder without first climbing it. But then again I do see some dodgy practices here, wooden scaffolding anyone?

In that case why is he working alone?

Its a high risk job, I'd never let nor would any company I have worked with allow that to happen.

However, its dead simple to make safe, a simple anchor point on the other side of the structure and a rope would have sorted it.

PaulD
21-09-2011, 11:45 AM
Why does it have to be a lone installer? There's no reason why 2 installers couldn't meet at some sites.

What's wrong with timber scaffolding? It has been used a lot longer than any other type.

prefect
21-09-2011, 11:50 AM
some ****, i know him, he is young ****'s brother, or other ****'s cousin
Yep thats the bugga

pcuser42
21-09-2011, 01:30 PM
Whats with the Blame someone #$%* lately??

The public transport debacle of September 9 was the mother of all buck-passing :rolleyes:

gary67
21-09-2011, 02:16 PM
What's wrong with timber scaffolding? It has been used a lot longer than any other type.

So your happy to walk out 3 floors up on some timber held together with a couple of gun nails? I'm certainly not I expect real scaffolding.

Metla your right why are they working alone of course they shouldn't but who wants to pay 3 times the amount to have a sky dish installed, I doubt most sky users wouldn't, and yes it is easy to fix a ladder on your own depending on the building.

I don't make excuses for dodgy behaviour but there are some damn dodgy ones here, one of the reasons I'm not going back to my trade once I have fully recovered from the shoulder problem which indecently was not a work injury just my body crapping out

PaulD
21-09-2011, 02:53 PM
So your happy to walk out 3 floors up on some timber held together with a couple of gun nails? I'm certainly not I expect real scaffolding.



3 floors up would put you in this territory

"Standing scaffolding over 5 m high or intended to extend over 5 m, hanging
scaffolds of any height and suspended scaffolding of any height may be
erected, altered or dismantled only under the direct supervision of a person
who holds an appropriate certificate of competency as a scaffolder issued
under the regulations."

AFAIK light timber scaffolding has a limit of 5m and it involves more than a few gun nails.

Metla
21-09-2011, 03:14 PM
So your happy to walk out 3 floors up on some timber held together with a couple of gun nails? I'm certainly not I expect real scaffolding.

Metla your right why are they working alone of course they shouldn't but who wants to pay 3 times the amount to have a sky dish installed, I doubt most sky users wouldn't, and yes it is easy to fix a ladder on your own depending on the building.


Scaffolding in NZ is regulated so if you were expected to walk on what you describe then you should have refused and notified OSH, The only way standards work is if people are forced to work to them.

As for the Sky installer, I was referring to a safety rope he could clip his safety harness to rather then a way to secure the ladder, if he was hooked onto a fall restraint system he wouldn't have any injury and with they are easy to set up. Ideally a ladder shouldn't be used as a working platform just as access to a working platform.

As for cost, Thats a moot point, the cost of having people hurt is far higher, and the pay rate doesn't justify the end result, and some stage someone competent should have looked at that job, quoted a realistic figure to do the work safely, and if the customer didn't want to pay that much then tough.The job doesn't get done.

B.M.
21-09-2011, 05:08 PM
Harden up you guys.

This is how itís done. ;)

3176

CliveM
21-09-2011, 05:55 PM
I have watched people working at unreal heights in S E Asia on bamboo scaffolding. In excess of 10 stories. Seemed to be ok but I would be damned if I would go on it.

B.M.
21-09-2011, 06:39 PM
I note this guys got gloves on but the planks are a concern. :)

3177

Paul.Cov
21-09-2011, 08:08 PM
So I see a need for a remote control helicopter to fly a string over the roof, which can then be used to pull a rope over the roof to then secure a fall arresting system.

However, the best spot for a dish is often right on the corner, which is where a rope is most likely to slip and allow a fall.

The alternative of climbing a ladder to secure the ladder still involves a climb without security... unless we have everyone tote around airbags and compressors to surround their ladders.

Then the problem will become the airbag pushing the base of the ladder from it's best / most stable position.

Scissor lifts can't always get access to the right spot, due to trees, plants, fences, uneven terrain.
I can't really see a fool-proof answer to the issue of falls from roofs or ladders.
Maybe we need to have Michelin-Man style suits that inflate into a body-shrouding airbag whenever a fall is in progress. Although I can imagine headlines of "Worker blasted off ladder when body-air-bag inflates without warning"

Metla
21-09-2011, 08:37 PM
So I see a need for a...

I see ignorance.

Seriously, rubbish like that needs to be held up for what it is, uninformed gibberish.

I'm guessing you don't do height work, at least I hope you don't, Suggest you do a working at heights/full restraint course if you are at any way involved.

Vertical horizons run quality training courses.

http://www.vhg.co.nz/

WalOne
21-09-2011, 08:54 PM
From where I come from, we can have OSH regulations, inspectors, manuals ... but at the end of the day, unless the employer is a corporate (even if), forget about the regulations.

Most roofers, and those working at heights, just don't go any further than signing they have had read the safety manuals, will abide by them, etc. To attach and re-attach themselves to harnesses just isn't worth the hassle. They'd rather take the chance than slow down and, being paid on productivity, earn less.

It's a reality, away from the the regulatory environment and the corporate world.

:(

B.M.
21-09-2011, 10:04 PM
When it's Smoko I'll sit where I like!

3179

pctek
22-09-2011, 01:25 PM
Yes, yes, processes, courses, whatever.
How about the worker takes some responsibility? You can do all the training and rules you like but in the end it comes down to the person on the roof/ladder - if he ignores it all or makes a wrong move, well.........

Keep going this way and we'll end up like America, people blaming companies for every little thing that happens, spilling their coffee, tripping over a mat.

R2x1
22-09-2011, 01:29 PM
Lawyers have to make a living too.

Hmm, do I really believe that?

PaulD
22-09-2011, 02:06 PM
Yes, yes, processes, courses, whatever.
How about the worker takes some responsibility? You can do all the training and rules you like but in the end it comes down to the person on the roof/ladder - if he ignores it all or makes a wrong move, well.........



When was the last time you saw a telco or power company lineman up a ladder without their ladder secured and belt on? AFAIK they aren't given the option.

That's the difference between companies that take safety seriously and cowboy aerial installing contractors.

Bobh
22-09-2011, 03:10 PM
When it's Smoko I'll sit where I like!

3179

I could not spot the harness on that man sitting on the girder. :horrified

Gobe1
22-09-2011, 03:54 PM
Lawyers have to make a living too.

Hmm, do I really believe that?

They do eat.... dont they?

Sky should just refuse to place the dish higher that 2 meters, problem solved

Metla
22-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Yes, yes, processes, courses, whatever.
How about the worker takes some responsibility? You can do all the training and rules you like but in the end it comes down to the person on the roof/ladder - if he ignores it all or makes a wrong move, well.........


The worker doesn't define policy or protocols, they are employed to follow them, and if the company has **** policy then its the worker who suffers.

If the company has fulfilled their legal obligations to ensure a safe work place and the worker ignores this then he takes responsibility and the company will escape prosecution.

Why do you believe that companies should put profit over safety?, No one is paid enough to suffer a brain injury. And in many cases if the employee isn't informed of the risks and safer methodology then they are in no position to insist upon them, The ignorance displayed by a few in this thread is testament to that very fact.

B.M.
22-09-2011, 05:31 PM
I could not spot the harness on that man sitting on the girder. :horrified

No Fluro Jacket or Hard Hat either. :annoyed:

This guy's got to jump a bit of a gap so he doesn't want anything to impede his athleticism. :eek:

3181

Bobh
22-09-2011, 06:34 PM
No Fluro Jacket or Hard Hat either. :annoyed:

This guy's got to jump a bit of a gap so he doesn't want anything to impede his athleticism. :eek:

3181
You would not catch me anywhere near where that man is with or without a hard hat or safety harness. Going up onto the roof of a single storey house scares the hell out of me. :horrified

Metla
22-09-2011, 08:40 PM
You would not catch me anywhere near where that man is with or without a hard hat or safety harness. Going up onto the roof of a single storey house scares the hell out of me. :horrified

Thats your brain being aware that one slip means either death or life as a vegetable, It triggers fear with causes you to change your environment and preserve your life.its a normal and healthy reaction.

Some people don't have that trigger, They are unable to consider they could fall and as such are the very people who should never do height work, yet gravitate towards it as being to stupid to comprehend the consequences makes them valuable to some employers.

I've had a few on crews I have done height work with and they endanger themselves and the rest of the crew constantly.