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View Full Version : Seized Brakes, Morris 1000



The Error Guy
20-09-2011, 08:23 PM
Me and some mates at school are restoring(ish) a c 1950-1960 Morris 1000 Series 2, We got the engine running today and took it for a spin. One problem is that all the brake pistons are seized. We bled the brake system so we know at least the front 2x pistons can get oil (no blockages) and we have concluded that it is most likely a set of 8x seized pistons (might be less I seem to recall there is only 1x piston on the back wheels)

I was just wondering what would be the best way to free them up, we got the drums off fine, the pistons are stuck closed. I would guess brake kleen and some hammer action?

All in all the engine runs ok for 30 years stationary. Pretty sloppy in power though, compression is probably terrible and it sounds like a lawnmower. We had the muffler off but the staff around the school weren't too impressed :p having no brakes can make the ring road a bit hairy, good thing the horn works and people kinda got the idea about blue Morris = get the hell out :D

Anyway, about the brakes, ideas?

Thanks

TEG + and team

SP8's
20-09-2011, 08:43 PM
You're probably going to have to take the brake cylinders off the car ... the pistons will be rusted inside the cylinder bore. If the hydraulic pressure of the actual brakes wont shift them ... don't think you're going to have much luck when they're still on the car. Take them off and put them in a vice ... hit the piston back into the cylinder, using a piece of wood (dowel or piece of broom handle) between the piston & hammer so as not to damage piston. Alternately, take the brake shoes off and use a BIG flat head screwdriver and try to loosen the piston by rotating it. (put the screwdriver in the piston slot where the brake shoes slot into.

I still have a funny feeling that you'll need to get the pistons out, hone the cylinders and replace the seals ... no quick way around it. If the pistons are really badly rusted (pitted) ... you might end up having to get replacements or have them sleeved.

prefect
20-09-2011, 08:43 PM
If they are frozen it will mean they are rusted up and there will be pitting in the bore. Need to take the wheel cylinders off and immerse them in diesel for a few days then try twist and smack one of the pistons out. The cylinders will have to be resleeved and new seals fitted. If you dont the wheel cylinders will leak and wreck the brake shoes.

The Error Guy
20-09-2011, 10:13 PM
So probably easier to get new cylinders? Anyone know where to get them from?

Probably better ask a bunch of web mechanics for specifics, still no harm in trying. Will give it a shot tomorrow before my maths exam

kahawai chaser
20-09-2011, 11:30 PM
Try a brake shop (http://www.mpautoparts.co.nz/Brakes.asp) for the cylinders and shoes, or re-bonding if required. Or ebay (UK), bound to have some.
Another, perhaps less common way brakes can seize, though usually temporarily, if there is inner peeling/delamination in rubber hoses near the brakes. Acts I think, like a one way temporary valve, causing seizure when brakes are applied, but after a while fluid pressure is slowly released. Bit puzzling, but I found out a while back, when we dissected a inner deteriorated hose.

PaulD
20-09-2011, 11:35 PM
If it's an old Morris get the front suspension checked. I remember them breaking something. I was following one once and it just tucked the left front wheel under and rolled while going in a straight line.

feersumendjinn
21-09-2011, 12:30 AM
The front shock absorbers are lever action and are bolted to a crossmember at the bulkhead/firewall (at rear of engine bay), the bolts are too small for the job and work loose and snap off (or break out of the crossmember); also the strut has screw threads top and bottom which act as kingpins, if these haven't been greased regularly, they will strip the threads and fall out.

The brake master cylinder is under a panel in the floor (sits in water/rust and assorted crap) and will probably need servicing also (by the way you must use brake fluid not oil,

front 2x pistons can get oil
oil will rot all the seals and hoses, and make them swell (stuff them in other words)).

SurferJoe46
21-09-2011, 02:53 AM
<yadda, yadda> One problem is that all the brake pistons are seized. We bled the brake system so we know at least the front 2x pistons can get oil (no blockages) and we have concluded that it is most likely a set of 8x seized pistons (might be less I seem to recall there is only 1x piston on the back wheels)

<MORE yadda, yadda>

Anyway, about the brakes, ideas?


The BOLD part really stopped me right where I stand. Hopefully you said 'oil' and really meant: 'brake fluid' - wot?

OIL DOES NOT GO INTO THE BRAKE SYSTEM AND IT WILL SWELL THE RUBBER PARTS AND THEY WILL SEIZE SOMEWHAT LIKE YOU HAVE DESCRIBED.

If you did put oil in it - you've ruined all the rubber parts and that includes any flex-lines, piston seals, master cylinder seals and if it got into the power brake booster (if it even HAS one) - then it's ruined too.

I use the 'ruin' word and I hope so effectively. Once oil gets on any rubber brake part it is RUINED.

prefect
21-09-2011, 08:24 AM
Probaly cheaper to resleeve them, any machine shop can do it. They can use brass or stainless steel. When you bleed brakes on this what ever you dont press the pedal any more than half way otherwise you will have to overhaul the master cylinder which is as said before is in a ***** of a place in the right hand side chassis rail.

The Error Guy
21-09-2011, 09:27 AM
Yep, meaning to say brake fluid rather than oil. Using DOT4.

Today we'll try getting the brake pistons out and freeing them up, I know the master cylinder is a right b*** to get out, its wedged in under the chassis. before we put new brake fluid (not oil :p) in I wanted to take it out and check all the seals an unions but no one could be bothered getting the little bugger out.

How much do you think a resleeving would be?

The front hydraulic dampers are in an ok condition, all the hydraulic fluid has been removed to clean them up. We'll look into a replacement system or strengthening.

Gobe1
21-09-2011, 09:30 AM
sounds like fun error guy, keep us updated

SP8's
21-09-2011, 10:33 AM
Where are you located error ??

Richard
21-09-2011, 10:52 AM
Moving to the rear suspension, check where the leaf spring mountings attach to the floor of the car. These tend to break loose and split around the mounting. They will need to be reinforced if cracking shows. Good old Morris Minors.

The Error Guy
21-09-2011, 11:06 AM
Rathkeale College, Masterton. Ill put some pics up later, and a vid of it running

prefect
21-09-2011, 11:53 AM
You need to put in a lubricant for the valves when you fuel it, otherwise they will stick.
A series always been pigs with heads anyway and B series for that matter.
Wish my lazy kidz would play around with cars instead of their computer and play sation.

pctek
21-09-2011, 12:16 PM
Me and some mates at school are restoring(ish) a c 1950-1960 Morris 1000 Series 2, We got the engine running today and took it for a spin.
A spin where? On the road? Without it's WOF? Tut tu.

You do realise if you persist with this thing you will all have to replace something fairly large every 6 months?

Having had an Austin Cambridge for 12 years I can tell you everything got replaced at least once, some almost all the time (wheel bearing,s thrust bearings).
The only original bit on it at the end was the diff. Husband pulled the bung out out of curiosity and nothing happened, had a peek in and it had a thick tarry substance in it.....LOL.

Still at least it's a lot easier fixing them as opposed to todays complicated over-stuffed engines.....

R2x1
21-09-2011, 12:35 PM
Morrie Thou's are so good at stopping that the brakes really aren't necessary anyway.

dugimodo
21-09-2011, 12:56 PM
My Mum had a 1950s morris minor for a few years about 10-15 years ago, one of the models with the split front windscreen. The wheels kept falling off!
It was a reliable little thing as far as the engine went but physically a real challenge to keep legal. Had no seatbelts either but didn't have to because it had been continuously warranted and registered since new.

Positive earth was an issue as well.
Good on you for putting the effort in and getting a car with a bit of character, not sure I'd have chosen a morris myself though. Don't expect any real power no matter how well you get the engine running either, best described as "adequate"

prefect
21-09-2011, 02:44 PM
Morry thou are extremely reliable cars. But only if the mixture is checked and adjusted periodicly and the point gaps reset, tappets checked.

mzee
22-09-2011, 11:12 AM
I had a Morris Minor. Its 14" wheels used to crack around the studs and fall off! Ended up fitting Honda Civic 13" wheels. Later I fitted a Datsun 1200 motor and transmission, Datsun rear axle with 13" wheels, Morris mariner Disk brakes with PBR Booster. It performed very well and was 100% reliable. Very little modification to the car was required to convert it.

prefect
22-09-2011, 01:30 PM
I had a Morris Minor. Its 14" wheels used to crack around the studs and fall off! Ended up fitting Honda Civic 13" wheels. Later I fitted a Datsun 1200 motor and transmission, Datsun rear axle with 13" wheels, Morris mariner Disk brakes with PBR Booster. It performed very well and was 100% reliable. Very little modification to the car was required to convert it.
I am picking they cracked with boy racers going hard into corners. I have seen 600 000 miles plus Moriartys without cracked wheels.

SP8's
22-09-2011, 01:45 PM
And I'm pickin' it wasn't certified ... there's something to be said about the good old days when one could put a 3 litre V6 into a MK2 Escort van ... but unlike mzee, there was much structural work to make it fit. NO Certification, NO WOF, NO Reg ... when your 18 or 19 ... NO Wucking Furries ... :D

mzee
22-09-2011, 03:58 PM
I am picking they cracked with boy racers going hard into corners. I have seen 600 000 miles plus Moriartys without cracked wheels.

There was a batch of crook wheels, they were replaced free of charge at first.

The Error Guy
22-09-2011, 09:08 PM
Well we got banned from driving it... apparently the staff didnt like us towing it to try start it and someone complained about us driving up burma road from the cricket oval.

In the mean time, brakes are off and we'll try get a quote on them for repair, as is the rear axle which slipped out of the diff requiring us to take that apart to get it in again :D yay us. Oh the wish for the mechanics pit, which got filled in and no no one know where the bluddy hell it is.


Pics of morris so far http://longsword.co.cc/Morris/ the guy in the drivers seat is Jack Redley, the guy who "owns" the thing

kahawai chaser
22-09-2011, 09:49 PM
Interesting pictures. Seems to have big thermostat housing. What's the red light on the dash? Vaguely remember it was the signal indicator, when carted to primary school a few times in a Morris. And the corner motors/pumps in the engine bay?

SurferJoe46
23-09-2011, 02:28 AM
SU sidedraft, yuck!
Cotton wrapped wires, yuck.
Rubber gearshift, yuck again.
Gears and bearings made out of Londonderry Fog, yuck.
Semaphore turn signals, yuck.
Sub-floor master cylinder, yuck.
Cyclops dashboard cluster with non-working gauges, yuck.

All-around horrible experiences, each and every one of them. Sadly, I even owned a 1956 Hillman Husky which had almost all the same problems except I put a small block Chevy 5.0L/302 V8 and a 4-speed Stick-hydro in it and a narrowed 1959 Pontiac rear end and a tubular front axle with disc brakes all around.

The joke-of-a-frame got serious updating too, not to mention another set of rails and crossmembers.

THEN it was reliable. Oh yeah - I ripped out all that Limer wiring and added an alternator and modern wires and lighting too. I kept the silly Limer horn and run it on 12 volts - it became 'authoritative' at that point.

dugimodo
23-09-2011, 08:59 AM
psitively modern, practically a new car.
The one my mother had was a flathead with the sparkplugs straight up and down at the top of the engine and a split front windscreen. This is flash by comparison.
Good luck with it :)

The Error Guy
23-09-2011, 09:08 AM
Wiring is hideous, when we get some $$ i plan to strip it all and completely rewire, set it up for negative earth too. I might try find a new voltage regulator since that one is useless by today's standards

R2x1
23-09-2011, 11:10 AM
You want to change the voltage regulator? Sacrilege!
That is a piece of classical engineering which forms part of a finely built, admirably designed and reasonably priced system including ignition, starter, generator, lamps and numerous other craftsman built items that as a whole was sold by none other than Lucas in lieu of an electrical system. Fixing any part of the system is liable to make that part work, thereby throwing intolerable strain on some other part which will promptly fail. This failure may appear to be just standard Morris Motor Car operating procedure, but it isn't.

You don't really need to change the earthing arrangements, you will find more than enough negatives anywhere there is a bit of copper. Lucas are deservedly famous for their negative features.

Towing English cars is not recommended, they are intended to be pushed. That way, the pushers can pick up fallen parts en-route and throw them in the receptacle thoughtfully provided. Since pushers normally find these pieces by kicking them or stepping on them, the receptacle is known universally as a "boot".

wratterus
23-09-2011, 11:11 AM
...I ripped out all that Limer wiring and added an alternator and modern wires and lighting too. I kept the silly Limer horn and run it on 12 volts - it became 'authoritative' at that point.

:lol: I can imagine...

The Error Guy
23-09-2011, 01:23 PM
Might be a point of misunderstanding on my part but wasnt the voltage regulator designed for the old lead acid batteries that needed adjusting based on weather conditions (such as temperature etc) I might be wrong there.
However, it works fine as far as I know so if it charges batteries fine so atm there is no need to replace it, especially as we don't have a battery :p

Earth change was to account for any new electrical system installed (such as radio) since apparently new negative earths wont work with + earth. I would have thought just swap the wires around (on the radio) not sure about that, I have yet to take a good look into it.

Had we the money disk brakes, gearbox, and diff upgrade along with engine perhaps would certainly be in progress, we however have no money.

prefect
23-09-2011, 04:57 PM
Dont rewire its a waste of money. If voltage regulator works leave it alone it will handle the 22Amps which is all the generator could manage on a good day. Just because the plastic or bakelite box covering the regulator points looks old and sad it does not follow the regulator underneath is shagged.
If you really wanted more power you could just fit any Alternator from any Jap car just find one with a NATO pulley to suit your water pump crank pulleys if the regulator is faulty I can send you one for free.
Is it putting out around 14 volts at fast idle?

1101
23-09-2011, 05:35 PM
I'd imagine the registration has lapsed.

Do these old cars need to go through the complete VIN process to get back on the road?
Are there exceptions for old cars, they obviously wouldn't pass the same VIN process as newer ones
?
Just wondering....
Should they be allowed back on the road if registration has lasped ??
should they be expected to pass the same reg's & inspections as say the Jap imports ??
Should it be same rule for all cars ?? can exceptions be made if the point of rules & reg's is safety

sounds like a fun project regardless,
Ive seen how much the good Morries sell for, otherwise Id love one myself.

wratterus
23-09-2011, 05:39 PM
I'd imagine the registration has lapsed.

Do these old cars need to go through the complete VIN process to get back on the road?
Are there exceptions for old cars, they obviously wouldn't pass the same VIN process as newer ones
?

Should they be allowed back on the road if registration has lasped ??
should they be expected to pass the same reg's & inspections as say the Jap imports ??
Should it be same rule for all cars ?? can exceptions be made if the point of rules & reg's is safety

Just wondering..

Doesn't it change when a car becomes a classic? Prefect will know all about this no doubt.

prefect
23-09-2011, 05:48 PM
It will require re revinning if rego wasnt put on hold but rego is a lot cheaper if its over 40 years old. The lucas regulator is temperature compensated if its post ww2. Lead acid batteries are still lead acid batteries if they are in Model T or a 2011 japper. You could run into problems with sealed lead acid batteries if you they are set up with an alternator which could overcharge them as they cant dissipate the heat away. You sure wont have that problem with the lucas mg42 generator although rated to 22 amperunis in the narrow field winding model probaly in yours it would only make 20 amps at full throttle just before pistons and rods exit the beautiful A series block
No problem to change it to negative earth do this:
Swop battery terminals around
Remove fan belt
turn on key
push in regulator contacts let generator run as motor to re polarize it
If its got an ampmeter swop the wires around.
:eek:
Classic can mean anything I have even seem people use the word when referring to jap cars which is a travesty.
Vintage is pre Dec 1931 no exceptions.

Gobe1
23-09-2011, 07:46 PM
Aww come on Prefect.

These old cars were very sought after when they were new let alone now

The Error Guy
23-09-2011, 10:14 PM
I can just see us trying to get up to its max rated speed of 75.1mph (120 kph) with a slightly leaky water pump. It has got a origional luca generator and I really cant be stuffed putting an alternator on, you have to buy it then mount it and then buy stuff to utilise its extra power. not bothered. for the new owner

Re vinned!! like hell, and the rego? I doubt it has one still. No plates, no change of ownership no legal docs, just in a shed for 30 years, mild rust bubbles on the chassis members that will need fixing, other than that the rust is very very mild. Good old 1.4mm mild steel has held well. Probably need new engine mounts to be legal, new brakes (dont know if the drums are up to spec these days) then comes the seat belts.

So warrant, rego, VIN.... cost = too much unless we can get funding from the school or something. Fundraiser talked of but not planned.

prefect
24-09-2011, 08:21 AM
Aww come on Prefect.

These old cars were very sought after when they were new let alone now
classic pieces of ****

R2x1
24-09-2011, 08:55 AM
If it lacks Lucas, it's not Popular with Prefects.

He likes EnFo, the automotive equivalent of a cardboard policeman.

prefect
24-09-2011, 09:12 AM
If it lacks Lucas, it's not Popular with Prefects.

He likes EnFo, the automotive equivalent of a cardboard policeman.
Enfo God save the queen.

Gobe1
24-09-2011, 09:49 AM
:clap
classic pieces of ****

Aha! so you admit they are classics.....I win :clap: