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Jon
08-09-2011, 10:23 PM
Hi

Purchased a laptop 3 years ago which now requires substaintial repairs.
Retailer has agreed to repairs after lodging disputes claim but prior to this they have attempted to ignore their responsiblity under CGA.

May have the option to reject the laptop because laptop has been repaired before and now require over $1,000 worth of repairs for the following parts; LCD panel, HDD, DVD Drive, heatsink and labour.

The question I have for techie out there is would these repairs be considered substantial as nowdays parts are easy to remove and replace. Under CGA S21 If failure is of a substantial character, I may have the option to reject the laptop.

Thanks


Jon

Iantech
08-09-2011, 11:18 PM
What happened to it for all that damage?

IMO, HDD and DVD drive, easy to replace, although a few hours labour involved if re-installing OS etc. LCD panel (maybe $350 upwards depending on make) not so easy, I've done a few Acer laptops, takes about 30 mins. Heatsink is just about a full strip down in some instances. To be honest, over $1000 probably isnt to far off the mark. I would call it substantial and personally, if it wasnt an insurance claim, I would recommend to my client to put that money towards a new system (especially if the old one was running Vista). If it didnt require a near full strip down, then I probably wouldnt consider it substantial.

Just my personal opinion and would be interesting to hear what others think.
Good luck.

CYaBro
08-09-2011, 11:59 PM
I'm also curious as to how all those parts got damaged at the same time.
Especially the heatsink. I mean what can go wrong with them unless you mean the fan?
As iantech said $1000 would right at retail prices for those parts plus labour.
As an example I priced a replacement LCD for a toshiba the other day at $850!

What is the make / model of your laptop?

pctek
09-09-2011, 07:53 AM
Hi

Purchased a laptop 3 years ago which now requires substaintial repairs.
Retailer has agreed to repairs after lodging disputes claim but prior to this they have attempted to ignore their responsiblity under CGA.

laptop has been repaired before and now require over $1,000 worth of repairs


This is where I disagree with the CGA>
You bought some rubbish obviously, then it had to be fixed. Now it's totally trashed and I bet 2 yrs past it's original warranty and now you expect this guy to almost rebuild the thing.

You can buy a decent new one for less than that.

Put it in the bin and move on. And if you think parts are easy to replace, you try fixing it.

Desktops - yes. laptops are a fiddly pain in the ass.

inphinity
09-09-2011, 07:57 AM
Agree with PCTek, unfortunately the CGA allows consumers to abuse their rights at times. And for that number and type of parts to become damaged at once sounds like the laptop has been treated badly. If you hit it with a hammer you might not break that many bits...

paulw
09-09-2011, 08:26 AM
laptop PCs are the only thing I take an extended warranty out on as I seen so many die after about 2 years with hard disks or LCD panels dying..

1101
09-09-2011, 08:39 AM
I feel sorry for the retailer.
He made b8gger all profit, now has to foot the bill for repairs
The retailer cannot claim back off the importer/distributer for out of warranty repairs

The purchaser MUST take some responsibilty after 3 years. Notebooks just arnt as reliable as PC's . They get a hard life .

wainuitech
09-09-2011, 09:25 AM
Have to totally agree with the other comments here. looks like it's a laptop that's had is usage over 3 years, and now you simply want a new / better one and trying to rip of the retailer.

Are these substantial repairs ???

Not really. Going by your own comment
would these repairs be considered substantial as nowdays parts are easy to remove and replace Shot your self in the foot there :)

Lets work through the parts:LCD panel, HDD, DVD Drive, heatsink and labour.

Labour -- Self explanatory, cost of the time to replace parts with a stock install of the OS as it would have been when purchased originally, all other updates service packs, programs and data would have to be put back by yourself.

DVD Drive --- Unscrew one to two screws, pull out drive slide new one back in replace screws -- Done

HDD -- Similar as DVD drive - Unscrew one to two screws, remove cover pull out drive slide new one back in replace screws/ cover -- Done

Heatsink ----- Almost impossible to fail - they are made of metal, with machined fins and pipes - if one were to break it would be through rough usage, it would more than likely be a cooling fan if anything, once again though, could be worn out through dust and crap with normal use over 3 years and lack of cleaning by the owner. Depending on the make and model of laptop depends on how fast it is to get to, once accessed - easy to replace.

LCD - these can be tricky - whats actually wrong with it ? -- I have seen many laptop LCD's fail, and when the repairers/ manufactures look close you can actually see where they have been dropped, banged or mistreated - these actions are not covered under any warranty or the CGA. In 3 years it will have had its share of bangs and bumps -- but to replace the screen - not that hard.

Basically apart from the motherboard, KB, Battery and case it would then be a new Laptop -- just a 3 year out of date one and the CGA doesn't say they have to give you a modern one esp since this one can be repaired. "If" it couldn't be repaired then that would be different - but it can.

pctek
09-09-2011, 10:33 AM
Heatsink ----- Almost impossible to fail - r. Depending on the make and model of laptop depends on how fast it is to get to, once accessed - easy to replace.

LCD - these can be tricky - whats actually wrong with it ? -- I have seen many laptop LCD's fail, and when the repairers/ manufactures look close you can actually see where they have been dropped, banged or mistreated - these actions are not covered under any warranty or the CGA. In 3 years it will have had its share of bangs and bumps -- but to replace the screen - not that hard.

Basically apart from the motherboard, KB, Battery and case it would then be a new Laptop -- just a 3 year out of date one and the CGA doesn't say they have to give you a modern one esp since this one can be repaired. "If" it couldn't be repaired then that would be different - but it can.
Heatsink - no - fan? More likely. Once accessed easy to replace yes. Accessing it, depends but most laptops are a pain to dismantle.
It's time consuming.

wainuitech
09-09-2011, 11:43 AM
Heatsink - no - fan? More likely. Once accessed easy to replace yes. Accessing it, depends but most laptops are a pain to dismantle.
It's time consuming. Thats what I said :)


it would more than likely be a cooling fan if anything As for replacement, also said
Depending on the make and model of laptop depends on how fast it is to get to, once accessed - easy to replace. Had one a few weeks back, was real easy - undone about 8 - 12 screws on the bottom, off came the cover, and there was everything, could have gotten the cooling assembly out in a matter of minutes.

Not are all that easy though. :D

Jon
09-09-2011, 12:52 PM
Hi

Thanks for comments so far.

Based on information provided, totally agree with Wainuitech comments #8 but must apologise as I should have provided more details around the circumstances as to why I requested a refund but I wanted to be fair to the retailer and manufacturer and not go into detail of the case. As a non-techie, my question was concerning if repairs were “substantial” in relation to definition of S21 of CGA.

To answer some of the question raised and provide some further details,

1) Laptop is a well respected brand and offers a 24 month warranty.
2) Wll looked after and battery has been removed and used as desktop.
3) Repaired twice previously, one of those repairs requested concerned the power adapter which was getting significant hotter than expected (when compared to earlier model I purchased that used the same adaptor). Manufacturer gave assurances that the adaptor was within expected heat range and did not required to be replaced.
4) Laptop would sometime shut down after long period of use but I didn’t realise until now that this was a warning signal.
5) Total failure of laptop requiring over $1,000 of repairs.
6) Retailer refused to repair laptop under CGA after being pressed on three occasions, now I will ask tribunal to apply the full extent of the law.

I still believe the brand is a good quality brand and would probably buy the brand again but unfortunately with this model purchase it hasn’t lasted.

1101
09-09-2011, 01:55 PM
to be fair....
Some Laptops (& other things) are just lemons , with design/manufacturing issues.
Do a bit of research on that model, look for product recalls, & issues with overheating etc.
Check the manufactures forums for evidence of issues with that model

But, if people really want 3+ year warranties, they should pay the extra cost of a model with 3 year factory warranty.
The cheaper laptops are infact cheaper in partly due to the 1(or 2) year warranty.

"5) Total failure of laptop requiring over $1,000 of repairs"
That is obviously substantial, in cost alone . - doesnt mean your claim would/wouldnt be justified though :2cents:

Getting a Disputes Judgement in your favor is no guarantee of ever getting re-imbursed

wainuitech
09-09-2011, 02:01 PM
Just a follow up on the points mentioned.

Thanks for the better rundown -.

#3 Some power adaptors do get very hot. Mine is one -- if its been running for a while, I wont put it back in the carry case till its cooled down - a safety measure, it gets very hot, but has never stopped working in 7 years.

#4 -- Sounds a bit like over heating of some description, that can be caused by several things, including, but not limited to clogged cooling vents, the surface the laptop was on, meaning anything soft even a cloth will /can affect the cooling.

#5 - If that figure includes labor, just depending on the charge out rate that could be the highest cost.
Wont be a total failure - if it were the motherboard would have failed as well.

Can you please advise as to why it was advised the LCD had failed ?? or to put it another way -- What is wrong with it ?

Edited;
definition of S21 of CGA Where on the CGA is that please -- I have looked and cant see anything relating to S21 ??????

pctek
09-09-2011, 03:11 PM
3) Repaired twice previously, one of those repairs requested concerned the power adapter which was getting significant hotter than expected (when compared to earlier model I purchased that used the same adaptor).

They do get hot. They die. They're not exactly high quality power supplies - they can't be - imagine something like a high end desktop PSU connected to a laptop, not practical.
So they die and you buy another, not exactly a major expense.

happened to a friend the other day, he borrowed my generic one until his gets here.


4) Laptop would sometime shut down after long period of use.

Probably filthy, you need to de-fluff them.

5) Total failure of laptop requiring over $1,000 of repairs.
6) Retailer refused to repair laptop under CGA .

No kidding. I wouldn't fix it either. If you did that to me I'd just buy you another one which would cost less than all this fluffing around.


As for CGA, you might find they agree with him - there are no hard and fast rules on it you know, all depends on:
Brand
Problem
Age
Usage
Problems

Jon
09-09-2011, 11:47 PM
wainuitech #14
Can you please advise as to why it was advised the LCD had failed ?? or to put it another way -- What is wrong with it ?
Where on the CGA is that please -- I have looked and cant see anything relating to S21 ??????

Spoke to tech agent administrator as to what was wrong with laptop that required so many parts replaced but they said they didn’t know and the details were not included on the quote. Not sure why LCD needed replacing but due to its position I would not have expected it to have a heat problem.

Have also included part of CGA S21 you were interested in which also reference S18(3). The correct term used is "substantial character"

S21 Failure of substantial character
For the purposes of section 18(3), a failure to comply with a
guarantee is of a substantial character in any case where—
(a) the goods would not have been acquired by a reasonable
consumer fully acquainted with the nature and extent of
the failure; or


CGA S18(3)
Where the failure cannot be remedied or is of a substantial
character within the meaning of section 21, the consumer
may—
(a) subject to section 20, reject the goods in accordance
with section 22; or
(b) obtain from the supplier damages in compensation for
any reduction in value of the goods below the price paid
or payable by the consumer for the goods.


These claims are usually decided on a case by case basis so will be interesting to see what is finally decided by tribunal.

GameJunkie
10-09-2011, 10:38 AM
just buy a new laptop.

3 years is a reasonable time i think, and laptops nowadays are so much better specced

wainuitech
10-09-2011, 11:06 AM
Just reading back to the original post it was mentioned
Retailer has agreed to repairs after lodging disputes claim Ok they didn't want to do it, but are being told they have to.

So going by that - and your comments of why you may reject it - it looks like you simply want a newer Laptop after using your existing one for three years.

The damaged parts that would be installed should be new. So it will be working within its specifications, (which is all they have to do) you are not entitled to a newer model unless the original one is not available. Even then they could still give you a Vista Laptop of the same specs.

I had a customer try and pull that same stunt that you are trying (by the looks of it) with a laptop that WAS still within warranty several years back -- After I talked to the suppliers they agreed and replaced the complete laptop, with a brand new one. Exact same model and make -- he tried to argue, but got told, you had replaced what you originally brought.

He wanted a newer model --- didn't happen as he wasn't entitled to it. He was jumping up and down yelling CGA -bull -- he got replaced what he originally had, there was no problems replacing as it was in warranty.

Laptops should last three years, as I was told By the people @ Consumer once when asking whats a reasonable life time. Your laptop is three years old.


Just something of interest, since you like the CGA so much - you forgot to mention under:

Loss of right to reject goods:

In subsection (1)(a), the term reasonable time means a period from the time of supply of the goods in which it would be reasonable to expect the defect to become apparent having regard to -

the right is not exercised within a reasonable time within the meaning of subsection (2) ( below)


(b) the use to which a consumer is likely to put them:


(c) the length of time for which it is reasonable for them to be used:


(d) the amount of use to which it is reasonable for them to be put before the defect becomes apparent.



So three years usage --- a power adapter getting hot is not considered a major failure.

Edited: keep in mind also, that the price of labor is generally not covered when doing hardware claims. So even in you do get to win so to speak, you may find you don't get $1000

Trev
10-09-2011, 11:19 AM
I had a motherboard fail just one month before the 3 year warranty expired. It was replaced with a refurbished one of the same model which I'm happy with.
:)

Greven
10-09-2011, 12:22 PM
I would expect a laptop to last 2 years (unless it is really cheap model). 3 years might be pushing it unless you research what you are buying & make sure you get a really good quality model. I recently had a local retail store send in a mistreated 2.5 year old laptop that the customer was trying to get fixed under the CGA. I would have liked to have told her the laptop has exceeded its life expectancy, but she was such an a**shole to the store they got it fixed just to be rid of her. Sent it up to Dove & they covered part of the cost under the long ago expired warranty.

Jon
10-09-2011, 01:22 PM
Wainuitech #17
1. Just reading back to the original post it was mentioned
Retailer has agreed to repairs after lodging disputes claim
Ok they didn't want to do it, but are being told they have to.


The retailer delayed the agreement to repair laptop (over three week) and on three separate occasions rejected meeting any cost of the repairs, out of warranty, at client cost. Therefore as soon as I lodged a claim with tribunal they suddenly agreed to repair, they make it difficult for customer to seek repairs when in this case the laptop was only one year out of manufacture expressed warranty and still covered under CGA.

If the retailer had been more reasonable upfront I may have meet some of the cost of the repairs or accepted a suitable replacement but if the retailer makes you jump through hoops , try to fob you off, don’t respond unless you make a claim then I will seek the full extent of the law. Prior to this I wasn’t aware of my rights under the CGA but that where this forum and other sites are useful. I would prefer not to have to use it.

Wainuitech #17

So three years usage --- a power adapter getting hot is not considered a major failure.

Agree; but do you consider the current faults to be a major failure?

Nomad
10-09-2011, 01:43 PM
yeah, with all these diff parts failing - is it just a coincidence :confused:

pretty easy to swap out dvd and hdd, the lcd is pretty easy too, if they replace the chassis but even if not, you undo a few screws, detach the inverter and pull a wire or two and swap out the panel ... inside.

the HSF - that sometime is under the motherboard so it has to be stripped out first. if the HSF is on top underneath the keyb directly then it might be more easier.

i am not saying it is but i guess some might say the lcd is scratched? or that the dvd has a screetching sound? or that the fan has some kind of sound too? which can happen over time ... or blocked.

wainuitech
10-09-2011, 01:44 PM
Current faults major --- lets look at them ( as I have already posted previously)

LCD panel, HDD, DVD Drive, heatsink

HDD -- No - less than 5 minutes to replace
DVD Drive No - as above replace in less than 5 minutes.
Heatsink -- Almost impossible to fail, unless roughly treated - more than likely the Fan bearing worn out due to dust/dirt accumulating over the years -- Not hard to replace, but some can be a time consuming to get to. Have a customers Notebook here at the moment, When I took the cover off to Put in a larger HDD, took less than a minute to expose the HDD/ Fans / Heatsink etc Other times it will take longer to get to the components.

LCD --- in This case as previously quoted by yourself
Not sure why LCD needed replacing but due to its position I would not have expected it to have a heat problem.
I would be surprised if it were to do with Heat from within the Laptop -- if it doesn't go at all - problem could be several things, Break in the ribbon, faulty connection or just general failure after 3 years of use.

Keep in mind that electronic components can be different from other objects.

Meaning if a HDD for example is replaced its a completely new Drive, so its going to be better than one thats already 3 years old and had usage. If it were something like a lounge chair for example and had to be partly recovered then you may see the difference between the old faded fabric and new. That would be a good case to refused repairs.

You mentioned:
Spoke to tech agent administrator as to what was wrong with laptop that required so many parts replaced but they said they didnít know and the details were not included on the quote :confused:

Thats a reply I wouldn't accept -- it sounds like the place you took it to either are a pack of cowboys, or simply have no idea what they are doing -- going by the answer they gave -- they appear to be guessing at the fault. They should be able to tell you exactly what was faulty.

Greven
10-09-2011, 05:30 PM
I believe he is saying that he has no direct line of communication with the tech - he has to go through the agent (retail store?)

wainuitech
10-09-2011, 06:05 PM
At the end of the day, it has to go through the retail store (pity) as they were the sellers.

Please don't get me wrong, if you can get it replaced then do so, but just keep in mind it is three years old, and the parts are not to difficult to replace and they would be better than the original ones. A major part is the motherboard.

The biggest Pain depending on the Laptop, would be the cooling fan on the heatsink.

Agent_24
10-09-2011, 09:30 PM
I'd love to know what brand and model the machine in question is, and how that many parts managed to fail. If it was indeed overheating, then the thing should have been cleaned. I make sure to clean my stuff on a regular basis, so it doesn't end up looking like the inside of a vacuum cleaner.

A scorching-hot power adapter is a bad design or unsuitable design for the requirements.

In saying that, my 12+ year old IBM still runs, so I don't know how anyone can say the life expectancy is only 2 years. I sure expect mine to run longer than that (and they have so far!) - then again, something that old is low power, low heat, and built better most likely.

plod
11-09-2011, 08:45 AM
A thread not so long ago about CGA and netbooks (http://pressf1.co.nz/showthread.php?119489-Life-of-Equipment)

wainuitech
11-09-2011, 10:53 AM
There is one HUGE problem with the CGA and computers: It was written for desktop PC's NOT laptops - its outdated and needs to be revised.

To quote the life expectancy, esp in bold
Computers

Economic life: 3-7 years.

Life expectancy: 5 years (but if you keep up with software releases, your computer may be obsolete much sooner).

Repair: Power supply. Consider an upgrade if motherboard, hard drive or monitor fail.

Agent_24
11-09-2011, 11:04 AM
Why would I upgrade my whole system if my monitor broke? For the same reason, why would I upgrade if a hard drive failed?

I'd just replace the monitor or hard drive, and keep going!

If the motherboard failed and I couldn't get it replaced under warranty or repair it myself, I'd just sell it for spares, sell the CPU, and buy a new board and CPU and again, keep the rest, rather than wasting more money on upgrading everything.

Stupid.

wainuitech
11-09-2011, 11:16 AM
Exactly Agent - :thumbs:

The CGA wording is aimed at Desktop PC's not laptops - it needs to be revised.

Adge
12-09-2011, 10:59 PM
Wow, I'm seriously surprised at the comments here suggesting that laptops only last 2 years! I take it you don't mention that to customers when they come in to buy one...

As has been noted, it depends on the situation if you're using the laptop 8 hours a day 5 days a week then sure, you shouldn't be surprised if it doesn't last more than 2-3 years. And sure, a $400 bargain bin model isn't going to be that robust. But if you've dropped in excess of $2,000 on a laptop, I'd be pretty posses if it died after 2 years.

When did we start accepting that such a short lifespan was acceptable? Do the retailers seriously think we can all afford to replace our gear that often?

/end rant

pctek
13-09-2011, 06:57 AM
Wow, I'm seriously surprised at the comments here suggesting that laptops only last 2 years! I take it you don't mention that to customers when they come in to buy one...


I did.
I pointed out that they are not upgradable,flimsier than desktops due to their nature, expensive for parts, have less manufacturers warranty (parts warranty on desktops), get hot and are designed for portability so if you don't need potable why buy one.

wainuitech
13-09-2011, 07:59 AM
I did.
I pointed out that they are not upgradable,flimsier than desktops due to their nature, expensive for parts, have less manufacturers warranty (parts warranty on desktops), get hot and are designed for portability so if you don't need potable why buy one. Totally agree :thumbs: I tell customers the exact same thing. Many people think thats all thats available because that what the toaster shops push these days.

Chilling_Silence
13-09-2011, 08:06 AM
What I want to know is what would cause all these following parts to die, all at once:


LCD panel, HDD, DVD Drive, heatsink and labour.

My guess: A pretty damn major drop, or brute force.

wainuitech
13-09-2011, 08:52 AM
Too true Chill, never seen any Laptop have so many failures all at once on its own.

Looking back over the threads though - one thing still is "bugging" it was mentioned they didn't know why they had failed.

If I were to take a guess, without actually seeing the Laptop, I would be more inclined to look at a motherboard problem, not the other mentioned parts, simply because everything connects to the Motherboard one way or another :2cents:

1101
13-09-2011, 11:25 AM
When did we start accepting that such a short lifespan was acceptable? Do the retailers seriously think we can all afford to replace our gear that often?

/end rant

/rant begin
We started accepting this when PC's & laptops became so damn cheap. There is no profit margin in them. They are made with lowest cost on mind.
I guess this may be why some of the original PCs will still be working well after the consumer grade PC's have died.

No one would pay $5000- $10000 for a laptop with a 5 year Factory guarantee, & built specifically with reliability in mind
Robust lappies are available, no one wants em, why , because of cost.

get a Mil spec one if you really want something with guaranteed reliability & durability. :punk :punk

/rant ends
all stuff can break down & fail. Its just a fact of life, deal with it. 99% of the time it isnt an issue as brand name stuff usually doesnt fail.