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jackie.t
17-08-2011, 01:18 PM
Hope someone can help....

In January my computer was upgraded with the following hardware:

Intel Duo 2 Core E5200 Processor
Asrock G41M-AS3 Motherboard
DDR2 2GB Ram
512 MB Graphic Card

In April it crashed (blue screen and disk read error messages). Computer tech replaced hard drive (300GB) and all OK again for a couple of months. Crashed again with kernel stack error, and he replaced that hard drive with a new 500GB drive, citing that as the problem.

This time it only lasted a few days! Computer tech says he can't find anything wrong and has told me not to worry and just ignore the blue screens LOL.

On Monday I had a free computer check done elsewhere and this tech has changed a port on the motherboard and suggested that this is the problem!

Arrrgh, I am not a techie and just want it fixed!

I have paid the original computer technician $940.00, and am very frustrated as you can imagine. What's my best course of action?

Thank you in advance.

wainuitech
17-08-2011, 01:35 PM
Welcome to PF1 :)

What OS is on the PC??

Hopefully its XP, if not then the problem will more than likely be it hasn't enough power to run.

Download Blue-Screen View (http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/blue_screen_view.html) run it, and post back what the BSOD error is.

BSOD is caused by one of two things - Failing hardware or corrupted drivers, or any possible combination.

Edited: Just a thought -- When the components were upgraded, was a complete reinstall done from fresh ?

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 01:53 PM
Wow thank you so much for your very quick reply and advice!

Yes I am running Windows XP.

The BSOD error is: SYSTEM_THREAD_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED

thanks :)

Re: Complete reinstall question? The computer tech lists his services as: Transferred OS to new system, retrieved data, installed commonly used programs.

wainuitech
17-08-2011, 02:29 PM
Hmmmmmmmmm that description is a bit vague as to if the OS was reinstalled or not.

The error message should have 'Stop 0X0000007E " in front of it, if so thats a driver problem normally.

If you run the Blue-screen view, it will show dump files, click on one, in the window below it will tell you (hopefully) what crashed - if you can, either post back all the data, or take a screen shot and attach.

By any chance do you have a Logitech mouse or keyboard ? If you do look and see if kbdclass.sys is in the dump file via Blue screen view.


Can you make it crash, or is it still random ?

dugimodo
17-08-2011, 02:31 PM
Were these parts new or 2nd hand? it's fairly old gear for this year. If it's new and under warranty and you paid him to transfer the OS then telling you not to worry about the BSOD is a cop out IMHO.

A good tech can transfer an OS between different hardware but it's always better to reinstall from scratch as Wainui hinted at, old drivers etc belonging to the original hardware can cause stability issues.

It also sounds like an awful lot of money, I could build a much better PC for Less than that for example a cheap MB / CPU / RAM setup using an i5 2400/2500 can be had for < $600 unless you had a very nice graphics card ?

As to what to do about it, depends how determined you are. Either get on his case about it or bite the bullet and try to fix it yourself or find a better tech to help.

Some fairly standard PC fault finding would be:
Run memtest for a few hours to check the RAM
Disconnect all uneeded hardware and see if it helps
Run a burn in test, someone can probably link one for you.
Backup all your important files and software, wipe the hard drive completely and reinstall windows - best to delete all the hard drive partitions and start again to be sure.

Of course the Tech you went to should have done all this and more.

SP8's
17-08-2011, 02:58 PM
dugimodo ... by the sound of it Jackie has limited knowledge of the inner workings of a computer (no offence intended Jackie) and some of the things you are suggesting may be outside of her capabilities ... hence the reason for taking it to a techie in the first place.

Trust in Wainui to assist Jackie and if he can't help, I'm sure some of the forum members could suggest a trustworthy techie to take your computer to.

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 03:42 PM
Dugimodo thank you very much for your suggestions but SP8's is correct. I have very limited knowledge and that was exactly the reason for getting someone else to do it for me! I have had to call him back many times and he keeps telling me he can't find anything wrong and it must be a software issue. Without enough knowledge on my side I am unable to argue with him :angry.

I would like to find another tech who could fix it once and for all, and I am pretty sure this tech isn't going to be able to do that. Do you think I am justified in asking for some of the money back as he has not delivered what he has promised?

Wainuitech: Blue screen view doesn't give me that info in the bottom window, it does for some of the older files but not for that one, it also doesn't give any info about drivers etc in the top window.

And no I don't have a Logitech mouse or keyboard, do have that brand of speakers though.

The crashes at the moment are still random, so if I disappear from the forums you'll know why!

SP8's
17-08-2011, 04:01 PM
Jackie .... what's your location (city)

Speedy Gonzales
17-08-2011, 04:02 PM
Is this the G41M-VS3. I cant see the AS3 on the site. Are you in NZ?? If you are, maybe someone can have a look at it (depending on where you are)

SP8's
17-08-2011, 04:02 PM
SNAP !

Speedy Gonzales
17-08-2011, 04:10 PM
If it is the VS3, it uses DDR3 not DDR2 ram. According to the site

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 04:14 PM
Yes I am in NZ, Auckland to be exact! Speedy Gonzales the tech has listed that motherboard code number G41M-AS3 on the invoice he gave me.

Speedy Gonzales
17-08-2011, 04:19 PM
Well, dont know where he got the model from, since it doesnt exist in Google, or on the site. Are you near Mt Eden? Or where in Auckland are you?

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 04:25 PM
Yes quite close, I'm in Pt Chev. Maybe he made a mistake with the code, it comes up with Asrock logo and screen when I first turn my computer on so it is one of them!

Speedy Gonzales
17-08-2011, 04:27 PM
Well if you want you can bring the case here. I cant come to you, since I dont have transport. And I could have a look. May take a while to find out what the prob is tho. I take it, its not the PC you're using on here at the mo?? If you do it maybe a bit tricky sending me a PM tho. You need 10 posts

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 04:33 PM
Yes it is the PC I'm using at the mo, it's between crashes! Sometimes it goes OK for a week, then kaput, no warning, no pattern, extremely frustrating! Sorry for the ignorance not sure what you mean about a PM and 10 posts??

SP8's
17-08-2011, 04:39 PM
You need to mpost 10 times before you can send a private message ... you don't want to give out personal details in the open forum.

I and many others would vouch for Speedy any day .. he's one of the good guys.

Speedy Gonzales
17-08-2011, 04:42 PM
You have 6 posts now, you cant send PM's / private messages until you get to 10.

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 04:48 PM
OK thanks for clarifying that SP8's and for recommending Speedy, would be great to find someone reliable...

wainuitech
17-08-2011, 04:49 PM
Have a look as well as to when the OS was installed - if its the original OS on the old hardware, then its more than likely causing the problem.

to check, double click on my computer, double click the C drive ( click on show files etc if its a blue window) then scroll down to the Windows folder, double click to open it, you may have to set the view to "detail", but have a look at the dates the folders were created. If it was in fact a fresh install the date will show as Jan ( what ever day) 2011 -- since you mentioned this was when it was changed over.

If it were a repair install or a simple change over, the dates will be pre 2010.

Snorkbox
17-08-2011, 04:50 PM
So jackie.t just post three more times.

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 04:50 PM
Speedy I'm going to turn off my computer and see if I can solve the mystery of AS3 versus VS3, will post my findings and try to get up to the 10 posts too.

thanks.

Speedy Gonzales
17-08-2011, 04:52 PM
Sweet, and if it is VS3, If its using DDR2, its using the wrong memory

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 04:53 PM
Thanks snorkbox, nearly there.....

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 04:54 PM
Thank you wainuitech just going to check out your suggestion too.

wainuitech
17-08-2011, 04:59 PM
Sweet, and if it is VS3, If its using DDR2, its using the wrong memory That would be some "trick" its physically impossible to put in DDR2 memory into a DDR3 slot. :D

Its possibly a board similar to the G41M-GS Thats DDR2, assuming it has DDR2 memory installed and not DDR3 with DDR2 written by mistake.

Who ever the place is that did the job, Id say they dont care or didn't do it correctly.

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 05:03 PM
wainuitech good news I think? Lots of files are dated 2011, earlier this month in fact (when he was repairing it last time).

Speedy Gonzales
17-08-2011, 05:05 PM
That would be some "trick" its physically impossible to put in DDR2 memory into a DDR3 slot. :D

Its possibly a board similar to the G41M-GS Thats DDR2, assuming it has DDR2 memory installed and not DDR3 with DDR2 written by mistake.

Who ever the place is that did the job, Id say they dont care or didn't do it correctly.

Either that or some idiot forced it in, to make it fit :devil

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 05:16 PM
Eeek you guys are scaring me now! Speedy I have enough posts to PM you now, how do I do that? Couldn't get the AS thing the screen was too quick! Probably easier to just call the technician and ask him :) Just a thought....if you read my first post you'll see that I actually took the computer to another place this week, would that technician not have picked up the incorrect memory problem that you are both talking about??

wainuitech
17-08-2011, 05:25 PM
Either that or some idiot forced it in, to make it fit :devil Idiot would be right :D the alignment tabs for DDR2 & DDR3 are approx 8mm different, it would have to be forced, and it would break the board.

Iantech
17-08-2011, 06:08 PM
Hmm, I have seen a similar problems twice in the past on client computers. Really random blue screening, sometimes several times a day to maybe once a week (different faults, no pattern, no particular programme they were in when it happened), took ages swapping out components to try eliminating it the first time. Both turned out to be a fault in the power supply - second time it was easy, saw the symptoms straight away. I swapped out the PSU and neither have blue screened since. Whoever gets to look at it, it would be worth swapping it out and trying another one if possible just to eliminate it from being the problem.

Good luck Jackie.

My :2cents: worth. Hope it helps.

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 06:32 PM
Thank you Iantech for your suggestion and your good luck! My tech did suggest changing the power supply at an earlier time, but it got overlooked for something else. As it's the only thing that hasn't been changed, maybe it is where the problem lies??

Thanks again :)

mikebartnz
17-08-2011, 09:35 PM
Hmm, I have seen a similar problems twice in the past on client computers. Really random blue screening, sometimes several times a day to maybe once a week (different faults, no pattern, no particular programme they were in when it happened), took ages swapping out components to try eliminating it the first time. Both turned out to be a fault in the power supply - second time it was easy, saw the symptoms straight away. I swapped out the PSU and neither have blue screened since. Whoever gets to look at it, it would be worth swapping it out and trying another one if possible just to eliminate it from being the problem.

Good luck Jackie.

My :2cents: worth. Hope it helps.
The power supply would be about the first thing I would check too.

jackie.t
17-08-2011, 10:52 PM
Hi mikebartnz thanks for your advice, love your signature line, hilarious!

Speedy Gonzales
19-08-2011, 08:42 PM
That stop error maybe a possible rootkit. I've PM'ed Jackie and given a link to tdsskiller. To see if it picks one up

Agent_24
20-08-2011, 01:10 AM
There was no mention of a new PSU in the upgrade details... I assume then it's running something old.

Maybe a piece of junk Hyena or similar with failed capacitors. The fact the hard drive had to be replaced twice so far supports this theory - high ripple probably killing the drives.

Keep running the PC and the PSU (if in a bad condition) will kill everything else too, eventually.


I would verify the quality\state of the PSU before going any further.

Post here what brand, what model, and how old.

jackie.t
22-08-2011, 12:23 AM
Thanks agent 24 for your reply, please excuse my ignorance not sure how I find out those details, where exactly do I look to see the brand and model and how do I find out the age of the PSU. And yes you're right it wasn't replaced in the upgrade :groan:

Agent_24
22-08-2011, 02:02 AM
Open the computer case and look at the sticker on the PSU. It's the part into which the mains power cable plugs from the outside.

The sticker should list the brand and model. You could also take a photo of the label and post it here if you need to, but most are fairly easy to interpret.

As for age, when did you buy the original computer before you upgraded it? That should be when the PSU was new.

jackie.t
22-08-2011, 11:15 AM
OK, the computer was originally custom built for my father and then passed on to family when he died, hence my question re age! I've had a look and there is a date stamp on the inside case, 17/6/2004 which sounds about right to me. And you're right the PSU is Hyena.

Model no. DR-B300ATX

One very good piece of news (that Speedy Gonzales and Wainuitech were questioning) the tech did get the details wrong.

The motherboard is Asrock G41M-VS3
and the ram DDR3 2GB

thanks,

wainuitech
22-08-2011, 11:23 AM
The Hyena PSU's are not exactly very good ( I'm being polite :) )

That should be changed first, being that age, I would suspect its already failing or working on it anyway.

A faulty PSU can cause all sorts of "strange" problems.

Snorkbox
22-08-2011, 11:45 AM
Get a Corsair PSU. Or Enermax.

Agent_24
22-08-2011, 11:47 AM
That should be changed first, being that age, I would suspect its already failing or working on it anyway.

I'd be very surprised if it hasn't failed.

jackie.t: Your PSU most likely looks something like this inside: http://www.wlug.org.nz/archive/images/psu.jpg

Notice the 3 output filter capacitors in center shot are all bulging\leaking electrolyte. This means they have lost their ability to filter ripple, and the PSU will be dumping all of that straight into every device in your machine. Motherboards can cope (a bit) as they have their own filtering circuits but everything else (especially hard drives) assume the PSU is working OK.

Replace the Hyena with something decent (Enermax, Corsair, Seasonic etc) and the problems should magically disappear.


In my opinion Hyenas and equivalents should be replaced on sight, and the 2 previous techs who did work on your PC are fools for not at least strongly suggesting replacement. (Unless they just wanted the thing to chew through hardware so they could get rich off it)

jackie.t
22-08-2011, 12:01 PM
Thanks so much to everyone that has helped me here, I just wish I'd come here in the first place, certainly would have saved myself a lot of bother and likely a lot of money too :mad:

Just a couple more questions, please? You have suggested a good make of PSU, but is there more than one model? What do you suggest I buy, how much should I spend and where do I get one from??

thank you!

jackie.t
22-08-2011, 01:09 PM
OK I have been recommended a computer place called PB Technologies, they have a range of Corsair PSU's available, all with a 3 year warranty.

Which one would you experts recommend??

430W $79.00 +GST
500W $99.00 +GST
600W $119.00 +GST

thanks,

Snorkbox
22-08-2011, 01:13 PM
I'd grab the 600Watt model.

8ftmetalhaed
22-08-2011, 01:16 PM
just wondering, if you're in pt chev, what store did you use?

jackie.t
22-08-2011, 02:18 PM
Thanks snorkbox for that recommendation!

8ftmetalhaed haven't been to the store yet, just looked online at their website and FB page :)

8ftmetalhaed
22-08-2011, 03:46 PM
i mean the store you originally got the upgrades done by

jackie.t
22-08-2011, 06:23 PM
Oh sorry, original upgrades were done by someone I chose from an advert in the local paper that came to me, probably a bad move :( Had it checked again at Extreme PC in the St Lukes megacentre last week.

wainuitech
22-08-2011, 10:18 PM
Oh sorry, original upgrades were done by someone I chose from an advert in the local paper that came to me, probably a bad move :( Had it checked again at Extreme PC in the St Lukes megacentre last week. Nothing wrong with Techs coming to you, many places do it, I'm one, BUT when it comes to doing upgrades, unless is something really basic :sleep I prefer to take the PC back to the workshop, work under controlled / safe conditions.

Upgrades like you had done, I wouldn't do at a person place. Easy enough to do, but also sometimes to many things that can (and do) go wrong.

Getting an ad out of the local paper is no worries either, one thing you do have to be careful of is, are they "fly by night" people who have a small bit of knowledge, and no real experience, out to make a quick buck and dont give a damn , or someone who has been around for a while.

Cowboys / Fly by nighters are here moment gone the next. (seen the results of those type "Many" times.)

Its also good to ask friends, family etc as to any recommendations, a good reputation goes a long way when the person/company is good, a bad reputation travels even further = Stay away :thumbs:


Had it checked again at Extreme PC And they never picked up a crappy PSU or even suggested it could be a problem ????

Hmmmmmmmmmmm :groan:

8ftmetalhaed
22-08-2011, 11:45 PM
I figured you would say 'silicon tree computers' because the guy who owns that shop is a right tosser.

And yeah sounds like this guy was a bit in the dark himself.

Lesson learned tho, eh?

jackie.t
23-08-2011, 02:08 PM
The computer tech did take the computer away to do the jobs, and he also has a website, business cards, is GST registered, proper invoices etc so I don't think he was dodgy, but maybe just not as experienced as he made out???

But yeah as you say you would think one or both of the techs would have picked up a crappy PSU :confused:

As for the silicon tree guy, I crossed him off my list very early on after a phone call which definitely gave me cause to question his capabilities, tosser alright!

1101
23-08-2011, 03:31 PM
But yeah as you say you would think one or both of the techs would have picked up a crappy PSU :confused:


Not that simple.
I'd be replacing every 2nd power supply i saw if that was the case . Even some of the brand name ones have proven to be "crappy" (eg. 350W relabeled as 400W on a well know brand), but still OK for general use.

At least 50% (a guess) of all PC's out there have "CRAPPY" PSU's . Its not an issue (usually) . They are cheap but good enough (I wouldnt use one in my PC though)
Most PC owners WILL NOT want to have a working generic PSU replaced with a $150 Corsair .

However, I dont know what you asked that tech to look at or test .

1101
23-08-2011, 03:40 PM
......My tech did suggest changing the power supply at an earlier time......

??

Quote: "...17/6/2004 which sounds about right to me. And you're right the PSU is Hyena.
Model no. DR-B300ATX"

Thats one bl**dy old PSU, 300W as well, inadequate.
Most Techs would have wanted to replace that at the time of the upgrade, more because of age & low power rating (rather than because of brand)

Agent_24
23-08-2011, 04:17 PM
In my opinion none of them are OK for general use.

It's not so much the design of the things (although some are quite unsafe and tend to explode if overloaded etc) - the big problem is the useless crap quality capacitors which are guaranteed to fail quickly.

I agree though that a lot of people don't want a $150 PSU for their old Pentium III - that's why a fairly solid but older design with upgraded capacitors would be the best way to go in that case.

1101
23-08-2011, 04:39 PM
In my opinion none of them are OK for general use.


I dont like em either, but if they were that bad , every other PC would be failing.
There are thousands of these things out there, working just fine:for now :punk

People (ie joe Public) dont want to spend $$ on PC repairs.
If I started suggesting, as part of the repair, that a working generic PSU should be replaced (@ $150 ++) , then many would just write the thing off

But back to the original issue
A PC that old (I'm assuming 2004 ??), should NEVER have been upgraded.Every part except case should have been replaced, & Win reload. An honest tech would have suggested a new PC.
Unfortunatly, you will need to swap out parts , one by one. Start with the PSU.

Agent_24
23-08-2011, 04:46 PM
People (ie joe Public) dont want to spend $$ on PC repairs.
If I started suggesting, as part of the repair, that a working generic PSU should be replaced (@ $150 ++) , then many would just write the thing off

A few dollars for new and decent quality capacitors and most cheap PSUs will be better than new. No sense in paying as you say, $150, when $10 will suffice. All my own PSUs are either repaired\upgraded or high quality to start with.

Of course some ultra-generic PSUs (with really bad design) are beyond help.

wainuitech
23-08-2011, 04:54 PM
Looking at the first post, with the exception of the PSU, HDD and Optical drive there were all new parts.

To quote:
People (ie joe Public) dont want to spend $$ on PC repairs.
You have said it yourself ;)

Every part except case should have been replaced, & Win reload. An honest tech would have suggested a new PC. Not always, going back to the above quote, not every one can afford to replace all the parts.

The best option, as mentioned, a "Honest Tech", would be to suggest all the parts get replaced, then its up to the owner to decide.

Some techs replace parts or suggest a New PC simply because they are old, yet may be working perfectly. :groan:

The owner may not want to or can afford to upgrade every thing right away.

I have done this sort of things many times, some parts get replaced, then later on a New HDD etc can be put in when they have the money.

The biggest difference is depending on what the problem may be, for example if parts are blown, or a HDD failed, then there is no real option but to replace.

A classic case is a with an older board, with either socket 478 or 775 blows, the new boards dont have the connections to to attach IDE drives, only SATA, so the HDD and Optical drive has to be replaced.

1101
23-08-2011, 05:46 PM
I'll admit my bias here....., but his $940 would have bought a good Brand name PC .
with ALL new parts & OS :lol: :lol:
Of course there may be more to that story we dont know :punk

Just curious WainuiT , how many upgrades cause you some issues/headaches later on. ??
I got put off after 2 distributors knowingly sold flaky boards.

Cheers

jackie.t : you may also want to consider demanding a full refund.The upgrade obviously didnt work. Threaten the Consumer Guarantees Act

wainuitech
23-08-2011, 06:24 PM
Just curious WainuiT , how many upgrades cause you some issues/headaches later on. ??
Almost none.

The reason being the parts are all new that I put in, and generally only use either Asus or Gigabyte ( motherboards) Dont use the crap PUS's either.

The only one I can think of that has caused a problem was a year or so back, all new Board,CPU, RAM & PSU, the only things that were not changed was the Optical Drive ( 5 months old) and the original HDD.

I did warn the person the drive was sounding a bit flaky and he should replace it sooner than later, but he insisted it was OK :rolleyes: About two months later it died (hate to say I told you so).

One thing I ALWAYS do, is if the person doesn't want to replace some part under recommendation, I always put that on the invoice that it was advised but refused. That way if something fails they cant say they were not told.

Any new part can fail, but I try to stay away from the lesser quality ones. (Intel Motherboards included)


Of course there may be more to that story we dont know :D Bit like the saying often heard -- No one touched anything , it did it on its own ----- awh -ha -- Sure it did :rolleyes:

Agent_24
23-08-2011, 07:34 PM
One thing I ALWAYS do, is if the person doesn't want to replace some part under recommendation, I always put that on the invoice that it was advised but refused. That way if something fails they cant say they were not told.

That's a good idea...

PENTIUM
23-08-2011, 07:52 PM
Just a comment-
Some ASrock MOBO models have slots for both DDR2 and/or DDDR3. You can chose to install either; but not both!
I have used these for clients who have already available DDR2 from 'crook' gear.
The cheap 420w PSU's come with a guarantee and I have found AYWUN at $38 retail, here in Wellington, O K.
I am getting tired of raving over capacitors. This is ancient history.

Agent_24
23-08-2011, 08:32 PM
I am getting tired of raving over capacitors. This is ancient history.

Not sure what you mean exactly, but cheap junk capacitors are still used today, and they're still failing today.

jackie.t
23-08-2011, 09:38 PM
Hmmmm, lots of interesting comments and opinions.

The reason I called a tech in the first place (in Jan) was because the computer screen kept freezing. His recommendation was the work that he carried out, he originally quoted me "about $500" then when he had finished the job he told me it would be $690. As I hadn't gotten a written quote, I felt I had no choice to pay up. His suggestion to change the PSU was because I complained that the computer was much noisier than it had been before, not because he thought it was dodgy!

It went fine until April, then I kept getting a disc read error. When he came to check it out, he got really stressed and didn't seem to know what to do! He took it away and put in a new 300GB hard drive ($200) Fine again for a couple of months, then died again. His solution was to replace that hard drive with a new 500GB one, which he was quick to point out was at "no extra charge to me" and for "my piece of mind". The balance of the money was a call out fee.

And it only lasted a few days before it crashed again and I took it elsewhere. Obviously it's going OK, for now.

Having spent way more than my original budget I won't have the money for a new PSU for a couple of weeks and am just praying that it keeps going until then.

And of course I am well aware that I could have bought a new computer for the money I have spent:mad:

I'd love to get a refund, do you really think it's possible??

Thanks,

Speedy Gonzales
23-08-2011, 09:40 PM
$200 for a 300 GB hdd?? You can get a 500 GB for $80. Or a TB for $110-120. You need to change your tech, he's a ripoff

jackie.t
23-08-2011, 09:53 PM
It was $85 inc GST for the drive itself, and then 2 hours labour at $50 per hour, plus GST.

Speedy Gonzales
23-08-2011, 10:00 PM
So what did he do for 2 hrs besides install the hdd? I wouldnt pay anything else till he fixes it (for what you've paid already)

jackie.t
23-08-2011, 10:14 PM
Said he ran "some tests" and couldn't find anything wrong so replaced the hard drive as I said for "my piece of mind" He's Asian, English is his second language which makes him quite difficult to deal with, especially over the phone :groan:

wainuitech
23-08-2011, 10:35 PM
Dont want to burst anyones bubble so to speak, BUT even though the PSU may not be the best of brands,it also "May Not" be the problem.

Changing the PSU "may " have no effect at all, and the problem may still be there, then again it could be the problem.

Anyone who has worked with computers (and I mean LOTS of computers) over years will tell you sometimes the item you think is causing a certain problem in fact is not. Changing the PSU may or may not fix the problem.

Sometimes you really wish what ever is causing the problem would do the honorable thing and just die -- that way the cause can be certain ;)

As mentioned the Hyena's aren't exactly a top end PSU, but some do last a long time. I have one (300Watt) in a Old PC thats used as a server, its never missed a beat in nearly 7 years -- It was only meant to be a temp PSU but somehow I never got around to changing it.

Agent_24
23-08-2011, 11:39 PM
Yes, well, If the thing has managed to go through a couple of hard drives other parts might be stuffed too by now...

7 years in a server has got to be a record, I'd love to see the inside of that one. I've got a stack of Hyenas and every one has at least one or two leaking capacitors in it.

All (but one) will "run OK" as far as I know. But they are all obviously faulty.

wainuitech
23-08-2011, 11:47 PM
The one I have it in is only a very low spec file server, mainly used for backups, so hardly any stress on it from day to day. 99% of the time its :sleep then around 8-9pm it gets a poke from a couple of PC's that dump backups on it. Oh - and it streams music sometimes to other PC's on the LAN.

Its a real grunter :lol: 512MB RAM, celeron (something or other) Socket 478, running an altered Ubuntu (had XP Originally) :banana

Agent_24
23-08-2011, 11:56 PM
Well that does makes sense, with a low load the PSU wouldn't have been stressed too much, and would last longer, and of course a PSU with potentially failed capacitors and a low load won't output the ton of ripple one with a high\full load would, so stability issues may never arise.

However I sure as heck wouldn't trust any backups to a machine with a 7-year-old Hyena... I hope you're not running IBM Deskstars in it as well :devil

Iantech
24-08-2011, 12:58 AM
I'm with you there WT, 2 weeks ago I just replaced a Win 2000 Server built in 2004. It has a Hyena 300W PSU, about a P4 2.2GHz 1G ram I think. It never missed a beat, ran 24/7, only time it went down was to replace the HDD's about 3 years ago and I took it down to the companies workshop to blow the dust out of it once. Fan bearings are getting pretty noisy, but it still worked fine til I turned it off. It is now retired as a spare, I doubt the new server will be as reliable.

wainuitech
24-08-2011, 08:56 AM
No Agent, No IBM's.

The one that has the Hyena is a backup to/for the backups. I have various backups spread over several places, and they all are backed up / copied to that one computer (two copies in total) so if one does go bang its no great lose.

Agent_24
24-08-2011, 09:41 AM
No Agent, No IBM's.

The one that has the Hyena is a backup to/for the backups. I have various backups spread over several places, and they all are backed up / copied to that one computer (two copies in total) so if one does go bang its no great lose.

The IBM thing was a joke ;)

I wouldn't expect you of all people to entrust your backups to only one machine. But as you stated in a previous post:


The Hyena PSU's are not exactly very good ( I'm being polite :) )

That should be changed first, being that age, I would suspect its already failing or working on it anyway.

I don't know why you'd say that and then say you've used one in a server for 7 years...

bk T
24-08-2011, 10:43 AM
So what did he do for 2 hrs besides install the hdd? I wouldnt pay anything else till he fixes it (for what you've paid already)

Installing OS?

Speedy Gonzales
24-08-2011, 10:51 AM
And? That wont take 2 hrs

wainuitech
24-08-2011, 11:26 AM
The IBM thing was a joke ;)

I wouldn't expect you of all people to entrust your backups to only one machine. But as you stated in a previous post:



I don't know why you'd say that and then say you've used one in a server for 7 years...As I pointd out before, it was a temp thing, but never got around to changing it to a better one. Never given any problems in the whole time, so why fix something if its not causing a problem. When it does I'll deal to it then.

That also goes back to what I said earlier -- to many techs change things that dont need changing just because they dont like a brand etc.

There are millions of everyday PC's around the world running with those PSU's, and no problems. Some people go a little overboard on bad caps,Name brands or other faults that simply dont exist in every device.

Certain people dont like Acers -- guess what over the last 3 years have been the most failed laptops I have seen ---- Toshiba's -- got 2 here at the moment, hardware failures, less than two years old ;)

Back to my original comment yesterday, If the PSU get s replaced and the fault continues -- then what is the problem ??

Seen it a few times what a person thinks is the fault actually isn't.

I was simply pointing out that while some here are saying it "IS" the PSU causing the problem, and jackie.t buys a new one which clearly is not in the budget, and it doesn't fix the problem, would those people go "oh my mistake, I'll refund the money" -- yeah right.

A good tech / repair place would change the PSU with a "loner", and if the problem is solved then a new one can be purchased.

wainuitech
24-08-2011, 11:35 AM
Installing OS? Agree, easily take 2 hours with XP, 45 minutes to install, then theres the drivers if they need to be downloaded, windows updated,programs & data put back easily takes 3-4 hours. (or more)

8ftmetalhaed
24-08-2011, 11:45 AM
I used to play a fair lot of games on my old HP desktop, which was running a 478 2.2ghz p4, 1.5gb ram and a geforce fx5500, all on a 250 watt no name (or rather, name that sounds like a good brand but isn't) psu.

It's been going since about 2003. Doesn't get used so much now, but still is used for stepmania and videos sometimes.

Agent_24
24-08-2011, 11:58 AM
I was simply pointing out that while some here are saying it "IS" the PSU causing the problem, and jackie.t buys a new one which clearly is not in the budget, and it doesn't fix the problem, would those people go "oh my mistake, I'll refund the money" -- yeah right.

A good tech / repair place would change the PSU with a "loner", and if the problem is solved then a new one can be purchased.

I would have suggested opening the thing and doing a visual inspection, if the capacitors were bad then replace it. However jackie.t didn't strike me as the type who would want to open the PSU and I figured it would spark off some people to go on about how dangerous such an exercise is.

(Which I do agree with IF the person who's doing it has no clue, wants to fully disassemble and then poke their tongue onto the primary filter capacitor terminals etc, but simply removing a cover and looking - not touching - is really not any more dangerous than changing a light bulb if you forgot to switch off and accidentally stuck your finger in the socket!)

I didn't bother suggesting a PSU swap (which yes, I probably should have) as most of the time when I suggest this people say they don't have one to swap with, but considering it's a Hyena and old it's my opinion the thing should be replaced anyway. From my own experiences with PSUs, cheap ones like that past a certain age have failed capacitors.

And of course that is no guarantee that ALL cheap PSUs in the world will be the same (and possibly your server PSU included) but what I've seen is backed up by other people (badcaps.net forums) so I don't believe that assumption is likely to be wrong most of the time.

wainuitech
24-08-2011, 12:21 PM
Not being rude, but not every thing that fails is due to bad caps. :)

While the PSU may very well be the cause of the problems, If the service people were any good, or actually cared about their work/ customers, they would track down where the actual problem is, not just fob it off saying they dont know and randomly buy components "hoping" one will be the cure. Thats an expensive way to fault find for the owner.

Jackie.t mentioned tests were done -- But was not told what types of tests - what tests would be interesting to actually find out.

Agent_24
24-08-2011, 12:22 PM
I used to play a fair lot of games on my old HP desktop, which was running a 478 2.2ghz p4, 1.5gb ram and a geforce fx5500, all on a 250 watt no name (or rather, name that sounds like a good brand but isn't) psu.

Bestec? HP love using those.

Some are OK, some models however have a crappy 5vSB circuit, and when the capacitors in it fail, the 5vSB rail goes up to 15v or more, destroying your motherboard.

Agent_24
24-08-2011, 12:30 PM
Not being rude, but not every thing that fails is due to bad caps. :)

Jackie.t mentioned tests were done -- But was not told what types of tests - what tests would be interesting to actually find out.

Of course not, I know that. I've replaced open and shorted secondary rectifiers, open startup resistors, bad capacitors in PSUs, and other components in other devices.

The thing is that cheap PSUs always use cheap capacitors, and cheap capacitors in stressful applications are likely to fail sooner than later.

I would also like to know what these tests were...

jackie.t
24-08-2011, 01:13 PM
Mmm yes you're right that I am not that keen on checking out the PSU myself but can definitely organize someone else to do that, probably in the weekend.

As far as those tests are concerned I wonder if it's worth me contacting ExtremePC (where I had it checked last) and find out what they actually did, as it has been running fine since then, LOL.

Billy T
24-08-2011, 01:31 PM
Bestec? HP love using those.

Some are OK, some models however have a crappy 5vSB circuit, and when the capacitors in it fail, the 5vSB rail goes up to 15v or more, destroying your motherboard.

If the motherboard is destroyed then more than caps have failed.

When filter capacitors fail in an smps, whether shorted, leaky, high impedance or open circuit, the rail voltage generally goes down, not up. If bulging tops are the visible symptom, they are almost always filter caps, that is about all that electrolytics are used for in switch-mode power supplies.

Unfiltered switching spikes might then do collateral damage that raised the 5 Volt rail to 15 volts (sounds like a 5 volt regulator failure due to repetitive transient peak-current loading actually) but that would not be directly attributable to the capacitor failure. However, the net result is the same I guess.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

Agent_24
24-08-2011, 03:53 PM
The problem starts with failed capacitors (although not filter capacitors)


the two transistor +5Vsb circuits (either BJT or MOS switch) are reliable - but one electrolytic (usually 22uF/50v or 47uF/50v) used on the primary side of the flyback is critical. It eventually dries out, causing an auxiliary secondary-side over-voltage on both the controller power rail, as well as +5Vsb. If it doesn't take out the mobo first, it will take out the PWM controller circuitry and then the mobo.

http://www.badcaps.net/forum/showthread.php?t=6680

I think you'll find it an interesting read.

1101
24-08-2011, 04:58 PM
........ExtremePC (where I had it checked last) and find out what they actually did, as it has been running fine since then, LOL.

Seems wee are all on the wrong bandwagon here?? :clap:clap
PC is working OK at the mo...

jackie.t
24-08-2011, 06:28 PM
On Monday I had a free computer check done elsewhere and this tech has changed a port on the motherboard and suggested that this is the problem!



I also called them today and asked what "tests" they did.

Checked the Ram
Checked the Hard Drive for any bad partitions
Checked for any viruses, etc
Basic system clean up.

Without much computer knowledge on my part (and another language problem) it was difficult to extract much more in the way of information.

And yes, it works.........for now! Sadly, I have had this happen many times before and it never lasts for long, I am kind of just enjoying it while I can!

Snorkbox
24-08-2011, 06:33 PM
So one presumes no one checked the Power Supply Unit then?

wainuitech
24-08-2011, 06:48 PM
Checked the Ram
Checked the Hard Drive for any bad partitions
Checked for any viruses, etc
Basic system clean up.

So they only check two pieces of hardware.

Hmmmmmmmm enough said.:rolleyes:

1101
25-08-2011, 02:21 PM
So one presumes no one checked the Power Supply Unit then?

Yes they did!! he was advised to replace it .
"My tech did suggest changing the power supply at an earlier time"

I get the feeling we still arnt getting the full story....
"check done elsewhere and this tech has changed a port on the motherboard and suggested that this is the problem!"
OK lets be honest here, we dont know what was asked, or actually done.
They may have actually fixed the thing !!! as admitted by jackie.t
"it works"
"as it has been running fine since then"

Speedy Gonzales
25-08-2011, 02:35 PM
Well if its running fine now, why ask for help?

Agent_24
25-08-2011, 02:37 PM
They may have actually fixed the thing !!! as admitted by jackie.t
"it works"
"as it has been running fine since then"

But then she said: And yes, it works.........for now! Sadly, I have had this happen many times before and it never lasts for long, I am kind of just enjoying it while I can!

jackie.t
25-08-2011, 05:21 PM
His suggestion to change the PSU was because I complained that the computer was much noisier than it had been before, not because he thought it was dodgy!

This was a suggestion over the phone AFTER the tech carried out the original upgrade, not because he LOOKED at it and decided it needed changing. And the reason it didn't get changed later was because the next time the computer crashed (3 months later) he said I needed a new hard drive. A crappy PSU was never mentioned as a possibility for the crashes.


Well if its running fine now, why ask for help?

Kind of just putting some options together for if/when it crashes again. It has been running OK for one week and two days but in the past it has run OK for a lot longer than that and then crashed for no obvious reason.

I will get the PSU checked though and see what it looks like inside, and then go from there.

Thanks again to everyone for your advice, it's much appreciated.