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View Full Version : Mobo dead = Windows dead?



Contented
16-09-2010, 10:55 AM
Hi!
I sort of asked this before but have had a lot of conflicting advice elsewhere.
I have an old AMD 3200+ on a SATA MB and run XP home on it. It's a bit outdated I know but it'll be a decent 2nd PC for the kids.
The Motherboard is knackered, if I replace it will I lose my OS or will a new one just plug right in, hook up the drives and fire up as normal?

OS was preinstalled, COA on case - MESH PC pre-built. Don't want to buy a replacement board if there's any chance of a problem.
Also, I am about to try and build a new PC - If I bought a decent MB and CPU, could I simply use it in the old PC until my new one is built?
I've just got so far behind in the tech specs that I have no idea if standards and specs have made compatibility an issue between new and old (2003) gear aside from possible PSU / heat issues in newer, faster parts.

Thanks very much for any help, will try to learn enough that I can actually help someone else one day!!!

Trev
16-09-2010, 11:25 AM
How do you know the MB is knackered.
:)

Speedy Gonzales
16-09-2010, 11:56 AM
You may have to format if the new mobo isnt the same as the old. Or it may crash the system, if you install the hdd without reinstalling windows on it. Due to the different hardware (if the mobo is different)

SoniKalien
16-09-2010, 11:59 AM
In theory you should be able to install the mobo, hook everything up and fire away. You'll probably have to install new drivers for various things, but XP should still work.

In practice I prefer to reformat as this clears out old drivers and ensures system stability.

wainuitech
16-09-2010, 12:00 PM
Since the new board will be quite different, you may still be able to use the Old OS and save a complete reinstall.

Sometimes if you do a repair install it will work, other times it wont, you will have to reactivate it again, install new drivers etc - sometimes the PC will work again OK other times it may be unstable.


In theory you should be able to install the mobo, hook everything up and fire away No -- the old board would have to be very close to the new board esp with XP, other wise the drivers will be all wrong, and the HAL will throw a bit fit and blue screen in an endless reboot.

Contented
16-09-2010, 12:52 PM
Fair enough - looks like it may or may not work but I'll give it a go if my new board is compatible. If it crashes I guess it's not too much of an issue assuming no harm would come to the new board.
Boards would be very different, old one was a K8VSE Deluxe and I think I had a power out during a BIOS upgrade or some other daft issue. Was the original BIOS that didn't have the ezy upgrading facility. Got as far as clearing the old one but new one never installed.
Posted here ages ago to try and fix it, got plenty of spot on advice from Speedy and co (thanks for being so generous with your experience) but to no avail.

I'm not sure which board I'll get but I'm after a fairly basic one to suit SATA,
a video card such as a 5770 (around $150 or so - would prefer Nvidea's equivalent whatever that may be) guessing PCI Express is the way to go on that?, my old Soundblaster Platinum card and a CPU such as an x4 630 or Phenom II x2 555 (an opinion on which of those CPUs is best would be great too - same price at paradigm pc).
Just about any board that can work with all that will be OK.

I'll hang around to try and get opinions on which board / cpu combo to get and then I'll plug 'er in and see what happens :)

SolMiester
16-09-2010, 01:52 PM
Fair enough - looks like it may or may not work but I'll give it a go if my new board is compatible. If it crashes I guess it's not too much of an issue assuming no harm would come to the new board.
Boards would be very different, old one was a K8VSE Deluxe and I think I had a power out during a BIOS upgrade or some other daft issue. Was the original BIOS that didn't have the ezy upgrading facility. Got as far as clearing the old one but new one never installed.
Posted here ages ago to try and fix it, got plenty of spot on advice from Speedy and co (thanks for being so generous with your experience) but to no avail.

I'm not sure which board I'll get but I'm after a fairly basic one to suit SATA,
a video card such as a 5770 (around $150 or so - would prefer Nvidea's equivalent whatever that may be) guessing PCI Express is the way to go on that?, my old Soundblaster Platinum card and a CPU such as an x4 630 or Phenom II x2 555 (an opinion on which of those CPUs is best would be great too - same price at paradigm pc).
Just about any board that can work with all that will be OK.

I'll hang around to try and get opinions on which board / cpu combo to get and then I'll plug 'er in and see what happens :)

There are only so many chipsets available for the old CPU's....is this an AMD XP or Athlon?.....
If you cant boot up the PC, there is no prep work you can do, however with a working PC I have successful swapped from Intel to AMD and vice versa many times, the secret is to change all the device drivers to generic ones, that way XP will boot up on the new mainboard with generic drivers and install correct new drivers as required.
If the mainboard is has the same chipset, you may find you dont need to re-activate at all!

Here is a doc.....

Ive seen a few of these recently. "Help me! How do I swap out a board and not have to reinstall Windows?"

So here's your illustrated (Screenshots taken in WindowsXP) answer.

The first thing to do is ensure Windows is in a state where it can work on the new system. In the case of 2000 and XP, this just means that it has to be able to access the hard drives.

To do this, replace the Bus Master drivers with standard generic drivers, as seen below. The drivers you need to be working on are found in Device Manager under "IDE ATA/ATAPI controllers". Ignore the Primary and Secondary, go for the other one. nForce users will only see one entry per controller.



If you're changing chipset (think in terms of drivers - Drivers for the VIA KT133 work fine with a KT400, but drivers for i815 won't work at all with an AMD760MPX), then you'll want to knock out the AGP drivers too to avoid video problems after the switch. Either uninstall them from the Control Panel, Add/Remove Programs or, in the case of VIA's 4in1, from the driver installation program. If you have neither (ie. SiS, ALi) or just can't be bothered, then observe the illustration below.



The standard PCI to PCI bridge disables everything AGP, but also makes sure that old AGP drivers aren't around to screw your system up.

You should be good to go now, but it's worth it to do some more cleaning up. Remove both USB controllers (don't do this if you have a USB keyboard/mouse, duh) and uninstall your display drivers. Also uninstall any other non-critical drivers from the Add/Remove Programs in the Control Panel, or any other option your driver installer has. They'll need to be reinstalled anyway, since Windows has to reinstall devices if they change INT# lines and they will.


SATA INTEL NOTE
Now, go into Device Manager, select "Show Hidden Devices" from the menu, and enter Non-Plug and Play Devices.

Unless you now look under "Non-Plug and Play Devices" and delete "IntelIDE" and "IntelPPM", you will get a failure after the swap.
My discovery comment is on page 8 of this thread.

This is a problem with WindowsXP SP2's SATA drivers for Intel systems and is not present on AMD systems. Indeed, it only manifests when leaving an Intel system to go to an AMD one.

Finished all that rebooting? You're half way there.

Do your build and power it up. Windows will boot up and complain about drivers. Don't install any of them, just cancel every time. It'll do some automatically, these are probably the ones you don't have any drivers for anyway and you're quite happy to let Windows use the internal drivers.

Open a command line (Start>Run>cmd.exe) and take a look below...



With the devmgr_show_nonpresent_devices set to 1, and "Show Hidden Devices" enabled, you can see the trash left from your previous machine. Notice also the BDA deframers and filters and, off the bottom of the window, some Microsoft filters. Don't get rid of the filters, just the actual hardware that used to be in your system (or still is, you're reinstalling all the drivers). Just kill anything that's ghosted and not something you shouldn't kill like the filters and deframers mentioned above. You may be surprised by how much crap you find. Don't touch anything under Non-PnP Drivers or anything you recognise as a USB device. USB devices are 'reinstalled' on a per-root basis, as their location has changed, so you may see many duplicates, which is normal.

Next, let's get going. Install your chipset drivers first. Then the display drivers. It sucks to work in 640x480x16, doesn't it? Now go nuts. Install the drivers for everything and we're done. Remember to reboot every time you're prompted. Nothing screws up a driver install worse than the drivers not knowing what they need to know about the system.
We now have a clean system that doesn't even know you've changed the board.

I've done some really drastic changes like this. In one, I just tore the HD out of the machine (An old PPro200 and slapped it in a Duron).
________________________________________

FAQ

What happens if I don't do the IDE drivers step?
One of two things.
1. The system will give INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE and won't even boot up.
2. It'll work if you're upgrading between compatible chipsets (ie. i845 to i850 or KT133A to KT333)

What happens if I don't clean up in Device Manager?
You end up with a whole heap of ghost devices. These can cause problems if you install compatible hardware later on. For example, if I didn't clean out those Crystal CX4624 drivers and I then installed a Santa Cruz (CX4630), I'd have hell trying to get Turtle Beach's drivers on there.

What about the other branded drivers in System (Device Manager)?
You'd worry about these in 98, ASD would kick in probably. 2k and XP are smart enough to replace them with the right ones. The old ones are removed during the clean up phase of this procedure.

Do I need to change the PC Type (ie. ACPI Uniproc to Standard PC)?
You can change freely between ACPI types, but not from ACPI to Standard or back again. So you can go from ACPI Uniproc to ACPI Multiproc (even on a uniproc system) and expect no problems.

Can I do something like this to move my HD from an onboard controller to a RAID or PCI controller, or vice versa?
No. The onboard controller has a standard 'location' where standard drivers will always be able to work with it. PCI and RAID controllers have no such standard, you'll just get INACCESSIBLE_BOOT_DEVICE. You may also get this error if your boot drive is on a PCI controller and you change the slot it's in. This can be worked around on systems with APICs by changing the INT# mapping to match the old INT# to the new location. Other systems can't do this.

I just swapped as-is between incompatible chipsets and it all worked!
Lucky you. You probably didn't have busmaster ATA drivers installed, or you were using a chipset that Windows has full drivers for.

What is the tech explanation behind all this?
Windows enumerates all devices on boot. DriverGuru explained this on page two of the thread, so I won't repeat it. However, it doesn't remap where the boot drive is if it has changed location or changed controller hardware. If the driver it used last time won't work this time, you get a 0x7B. The standard driver will work every time, where every is as far as we're discussing the standard ATA controller. Those who boot from SATA or SCSI are on their own.
In terms of AGP, different manufacturers' implementations vary. Some use helper services, which must be removed. Uninstalling the drivers sometimes removes them, but always deactivates them. Same with video cards, all major vendors use helper services which must be removed. Thankfully, NVIDIA and ATI have uninstallation programs (Add/Remove Programs) which do a thorough job.

What is a 'helper service'?
It's something that works in tandem with a device driver. Sometimes they're session drivers (DScaler, Sandra and many other programs which need hardware access use session drivers) and other times they're just normal services running as LOCAL SYSTEM. ATI and NVIDIA use helper services for HYDRAVISION and nView, respectively.

I want to clean up my system, where do I find old services that old drivers may have installed?
HKLM>SYSTEM>CurrentControlSet>Services
Device drivers are just a special case of a system service under Windows. You can safely delete the entire key for services you no longer have the hardware for, and which aren't removed by the uninstallation of the associated driver. Common culprits are viaagp1 and nv4disp, though they're harmless anyway.




author (Wayne Hardman).

Contented
16-09-2010, 02:10 PM
Fantastic!, well beyond anything I've ever done but i'm tempted to give it a go just to try and learn from it.
My old board has this K8T800 Chipset with an Athlon and I am leaning towards something like an Asrock 870 Extreme 3 (not been able to find it in NZ yet) purely from the opinions of 'them' on the net. Wouldn't mind a cheaper board but still trying to find NZ retailers - have found PP, Ascent and Modster to be pretty good for components.
Looks like I'm going for an AMD x4 640 with it
Thanks again for the step by step. It'll probably end in comical disaster but if I'm building a new system anyway it won't hurt to stick the new MB in and have a go.

Death or glory for my old Everquest workhorse! :badpc:

Either way, if anyone wants my old Athlon 3200+ and dead board afterwards just let me know

Speedy Gonzales
16-09-2010, 02:34 PM
Probably be better if you do reinstall since the new mobo has a Northbridge: AMD 870 - Southbridge: AMD SB850 chipset, which is totally different. And its also dual core / 6 core. If you do decide to get the Asrock and x4 640, make sure the BIOS thats on it supports the CPU. Before you buy both. Or you'll be heading back to the shop.

SolMiester
16-09-2010, 02:51 PM
Im getting lost now OP, are you replacing the board or starting new? If starting new and you want to keep the old drive, image it and then use the image to create a VM on the new PC. You could possibly get new mainboard, CPU and RAM and use the old SATA, however you would have to use the repair option to re-install chipsets, multi-processor HAL etc, but personally, Id just put it in a VM and boot when required.

pctek
16-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Step 1: Replace board and boot to Windows. It may just start wanting to update drivers

Step 2 : If it BSODs, try safe mode and above

Step 3: BSODs and no safe mode fix, repair install.

If all else fails a fresh install, but you can often get away with it, depends what board you went from and to.

Contented
16-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Sorry Solmiester - my fault for rambling on. The original idea was to plan at starting a new build, initially buy the new MB and CPU but then stop and see if I could then get it to work my old PC with the dead board.
If it worked I'd stop there for the meantime, if not I'd carry on with with the rest of the build and bin the old one.