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Cicero
20-08-2010, 04:07 PM
Pals son with everything to look forward too,pilot,good looking with a super family,difficulty with his girl friend,so he tops himself.

Thinking of those million of Pakistanis,sitting in water,wondering where their next meal is coming from,probably feeling a bit hopeless.

You have to wonder what it is all about.

Billy T
20-08-2010, 04:15 PM
Love (thought) found and later lost can bend the brain past all reason Ciccy.

Sad but true, and like the old age truck, you never see it coming.

You've got to feel for sombody who had so many riches but was unable to see past yesterday.

Billy

Cicero
20-08-2010, 04:24 PM
Love (thought) found and later lost can bend the brain past all reason Ciccy.

Sad but true, and like the old age truck, you never see it coming.

You've got to feel for sombody who had so many riches but was unable to see past yesterday.

Billy

All true of course,but you have to wonder at the comparitive positions and where our heads are today.

I think the youth of today seem unable to cope as well as we used too.

SolMiester
20-08-2010, 04:37 PM
Pals son with everything to look forward too,pilot,good looking with a super family,difficulty with his girl friend,so he tops himself.

Thinking of those million of Pakistanis,sitting in water,wondering where their next meal is coming from,probably feeling a bit hopeless.

You have to wonder what it is all about.
Its because its all about me...me...me! Shame we cant teach our children unselfishness nowadays, but appears to be impossible in so many cases

WalOne
20-08-2010, 04:56 PM
You've got to feel for sombody who had so many riches but was unable to see past yesterday.

Billy

Nicely put, Billy. Like Cicero's friend, I've been to a very dark place, too. Your thinking is not what it usually is. It's not a matter of feeling down, feeling sorry for yourself or that the future holds no promise; you can't recognise those feelings as the product of a diseased mind. But unlike that tragic young guy, I was able to get some help to climb out of that trough.

KarameaDave
20-08-2010, 05:35 PM
Very sad, your friend will be needing a bit of support now, I imagine.
Suicide is a terrible business.
However, you make an interesting point about the flood victims.
Perhaps they are too busy merely surviving to think about alternatives.

Thebananamonkey
20-08-2010, 05:50 PM
I've been there, too. It's not about selfishness, it's an utter disrespect for the importance your own existence. When I was close, I thought that I'd be doing those around me a favour.

Anyone who's never been there can hold their tongue. It's very hard to understand if you haven't been through it. The only way I can explain it is if you were to imagine the person you hate most in the entire world, where if they were to walk into the room you'd just up and leave. Everything they say is toxic and stupid. Imagine that person is you.

I'm not saying it makes any sense to take your life. It doesn't. Just that the steps leading up that path make it hard to see your life for what it is.

My sympathy to you, Cicero and your friend's family. They must be going through hell right now.

pctek
20-08-2010, 05:54 PM
I think the youth of today seem unable to cope as well as we used too.

Don't know that depression had an age. I apparently had an aunt that did the same thing way back in the 40's.

Sad for those left behind.

Cicero
20-08-2010, 06:21 PM
Don't know that depression had an age. I apparently had an aunt that did the same thing way back in the 40's.

Sad for those left behind.

Some stats for your info..........

15 to 24 age group......

1949, 10 per 100k

1997, 40 per 100k.

fred_fish
20-08-2010, 06:55 PM
Darwinism at work ...

Cicero
20-08-2010, 07:10 PM
What I am tyring to stress is.........who from an outsiders point of view has cause for despair?.........



http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article583665.ece

Paul.Cov
20-08-2010, 07:51 PM
I'm curious to know from those that have been down that dark path... how do you think you got there?
Was it a slow process of your own thoughts / was it a chemical or hormonal issue influencing your thoughts / do you feel you were pushed there by work/family/friends?

Also, what do you personally value as the things/thought processes that got you back out and have kept you out of trouble? Different thought processes/different approach to life and work / drugs / different attitude from those around you?

From my own experiences (which haven't been dark), I've had some seemingly irrational stress issues. For a brief time I was freaking out at my work load. I'd look at the appointment list and just start to shake (and I can't work when shaking). A short course on some wonderfully addictive drugs (I'd love more of them) and some changes to the work environment and I'm back in action, but with a new respect of just how fragile we can be.
The drugs were like having 4 beers down my gullet. Slurring, dragging my feet, but also taking life a lot less intensely and a lot more casually. Without the drugs I simply have to remind myself to slow down and just care a bit less about timetables, budgets and opinions.

Jen
20-08-2010, 07:53 PM
That is really tragic - what a waste of life.


The difference between those who kill themselves and people in desperate situations, is having the will to live.

plod
20-08-2010, 08:38 PM
I lost my best mate of 20 years to suicide last year, and we were only 35. He was one of those mates you knew wasn't going to be around for a long time no mater what help we gave him. Although I still grieve for him everyday, I know he is also at rest. Even from the early years of knowing him he had trouble, and it wasn't from lack of trying from friends and family. Nobody saw the signs and to be honest he was probably in the best frame of mind that he had been in years, maybe thats what it takes.

Snorkbox
20-08-2010, 08:53 PM
As it was once for me I was at a party. Some booze and no drugs. I looked about and figured I had lots of acquaintances but damn all friends. I thought that no one would miss me if I was not around. I didn't do it but I did think about it briefly.

Later I got married and she topped herself at age 20. I got over that one after deciding that it was not really my fault as I was advised she had tried twice before I met her.

SP8's
20-08-2010, 09:16 PM
There's a lot of people trying to bring suicide into the open because of the high numbers involved ... more than drink drivers killing themselves & others. Look at the money being spent on Drink / drive compared to suicide prevention.

Personally, I've lost a brother because he was diagnosed with a degenerative brain disease. Lost 2 good friends and come very close myself on more than 1 occasion.

I may make jokes about SWMBO'd ... but if it wasn't for her and my kids, who knows. Both times I considered that particular option, I had had accidents that affected my whole life and couldn't see what the use of being here if I couldn't do what I enjoyed so much ... work, hunting, fishing, etc.

One thing I would like to say is ... if you're serious about it, you don't talk about it. If it hadn't have been for wifey noticing something was up and giving me the support & getting the help I needed at the time, I wouldn't have told anyone. It's a bloody awful situation to be in and you if you're there, its not always possible to see a way out.

Different people ... different reasons ... different outlooks on life ...

WalOne
21-08-2010, 04:20 PM
I'm curious to know from those that have been down that dark path... how do you think you got there?


I'm not being flippant, and I'd like to give you a concise answer. But there is no one answer. You could ask 100 different people why? and get 100 different answers.

Possibly part of the answer lies in common peer reactions. A sibling, 10 years older than me, just ignored the comment when I told her I was suffering from clinical depression. A school friend of 50 years just said to harden up, so no help there. You just hide these things.

But I do know I had an understanding GP, and the public health system came to the rescue with some impressive psychiatric and psychological help. I'll always be grateful to these professionals.

And prepared to defend the public health system.

:2cents:

prefect
21-08-2010, 05:45 PM
Its really sad that guys commit suicide over women they are just not worth it. All problems my mates have had have been caused by women and girl friend problems. You can give it a clinical term by calling it depression but I would call it woman problems. Its a fact guys take breakups hard especially when the partner has been rooting around or starts rooting around when they break up.
Not that most females give a toss about the carnage that follows, a few months later they are shacked up with someone else and the cycle is sometimes repeated.
Not sure early intervention by qualified help is much good if he sees his ex rooting around with somone else it will set him off again.
Seen in 30 years lots of mates go off the rails with woman problems. Its something guys have to sort out amongst themselves because women are just so totally unsympathetic.
I would like to explain these are just my observations of my mates over the years, I might have observed wrong I am not a clinician just a simpleton truck mechanic in West Auckland.

John H
21-08-2010, 05:54 PM
Clearly you don't have any gay friends then prefect.

The only two people I have been associated with who took their own lives didn't have 'women problems'. Neither of them felt they belonged in this world, and they were better off getting out of it. One was gay, but that was not especially relevant to his decision. Both were amongst the top people I have known in 65 years in terms of IQ and creativity and they just couldn't see the point of this world.

Neither of them was well supported by their families. They were both marginal to their families and marginal to the world. Both were deliberate suicides following deliberate decisions - not attention seeking. Both young males. Such a waste, in both cases.

prefect
21-08-2010, 05:59 PM
No I dont or have ever had any gay friends other than two lesbians acquaintances. One in spares, other in engineering supply shop.

pctek
21-08-2010, 06:15 PM
guys commit suicide over women. All problems my mates have had have been caused by women and girl friend problems. Its a fact guys take breakups hard especially when the partner has been rooting around or starts rooting around when they break up.
Not that most females give a toss about the carnage that follows, a few months later they are shacked up with someone else and the cycle is sometimes repeated.
lots of mates go off the rails with woman problems. Its something guys have to sort out amongst themselves because women are just so totally unsympathetic.
.

girls commit suicide over men. All problems my mates have had have been caused by men and boy friend problems. Its a fact girls take breakups hard especially when the partner has been rooting around or starts rooting around when they break up.
Not that most males give a toss about the carnage that follows, a few months later they are shacked up with someone else and the cycle is sometimes repeated.
lots of mates go off the rails with man problems. Its something girls have to sort out amongst themselves because men are just so totally unsympathetic.

John H
21-08-2010, 06:17 PM
I am not up to date with stats, but there used to be a relatively high rate of suicide in the gay community.

However, the highest rates per head of population (not the highest numbers) were in the older male age group.

No-one has ever taken any action regarding this statistic (except for some work that was done with farmers when the rates got really high in drought areas). It is a bit like prostate cancer - higher incidence and mortality rates than breast cancer, but the Ministry of Health policy wallahs aren't interested in us old farts.

I guess the thought process is 1) they are men so who gives a toss, and b) we have had our lives and youth are a higher priority. I can't argue with the second argument I suppose - I would put the priority there too.

But we are our own worst enemies because we don't cause a fuss about minor things like male health issues. The guy who used to run the TV gardening programme (Eion Scarrow?) tried to get a prostate cancer campaign going, but he was a lone voice. Similar with older male suicide I guess - the rates may be high, but the numbers are relatively low, so why put any resources into it.

As far as Cicero's question is concerned, there must be quite a number of older men who can't answer it to their own satisfaction.

John H
21-08-2010, 06:19 PM
@pctek - it used to be that more women/girls attempted suicide than males, but they were less successful - more men died per head of population because the methods they used were more violent and they succeeded at a higher rate. I am not sure what the current stats are on this.

R2x1
21-08-2010, 07:35 PM
Perhaps self-destruction is a species compulsion?

Look how many voted National ;)

John H
21-08-2010, 08:49 PM
Lemmings.

mikebartnz
21-08-2010, 09:57 PM
@pctek - it used to be that more women/girls attempted suicide than males, but they were less successful - more men died per head of population because the methods they used were more violent and they succeeded at a higher rate. I am not sure what the current stats are on this.
For some women it is a cry for help and they don't truly want to top themselves.
A couple of weeks ago a friends son topped himself and the week after a young lad that was at the funeral did the same. Very sad.

Cicero
22-08-2010, 03:09 PM
I was sitting there being inundated like the rest of us,with the Pakistan catastrophe and it occurred to me that my mates son should have half of the problems that lot have got and he would have had good reason to give in.

John H
22-08-2010, 05:29 PM
I just saw part of a Parkinson interview at lunch time. He was interviewing Joan Rivers (whose husband committed suicide - she said they were making love and she took the bag off her head, and in one bound "Superjew" jumped out the window), Stephen Fry, and George Michael (or Michael George, I can never remember which). All had contemplated suicide at one stage in their life.

Parky said something about them all being famous, rich and successful, and surely that meant they had no reason to commit suicide?

Stephen Fry said, yes, that was logical, but logic doesn't come into it. He said that when you are in that state (contemplating suicide) basically nothing outside yourself is important or could stop you. Something like that anyway.

Sadly, if Fry's theory is true, I guess your mate's son was not thinking logically or comparatively about how good he has it in life. And on a slightly frivolous note, did you want to eat your junket or whatever you hated, when your mother said "think of the starving millions in Asia"?