Who we are Fighting in Afghanistan

[KenESmith]

Just in case some may get the wrong idea about the Taliban - from todays International news in the Australian:

Taliban flogs, executes pregnant woman

* From correspondents in Herat
* From: AFP
* August 09, 2010 10:31PM



THE Taliban publicly flogged and then executed a pregnant Afghan widow by shooting her three times in the head for alleged adultery, police said.

Bibi Sanubar, 35, was kept in captivity for three days before she was shot dead in a public trial on Sunday by a local Taliban commander in the Qadis district of the rural western province Badghis.

The Taliban accused Sanubar of having an "illicit affair" that left her pregnant.

She was first punished with 200 lashes in public before being shot, deputy provincial police chief Ghulam Mohammad Sayeedi told AFP.

"She was shot in the head in public while she was still pregnant," Mr Sayeedi said.

The execution is a grim reminder of the Taliban's harsh six-year rule from 1996 to 2001 in Afghanistan.

The radical Islamists staged public stonings or lashings of those found to have committed adultery or sex outside marriage.

The then-Taliban government would also chop off the hands and feet of those accused of theft and robbery.

Local Taliban commander Mohammad Yousuf carried out the execution, Mr Sayeedi said, before the woman's body was dumped in an area under government control.

The man who allegedly had an affair with Sanubar has not been punished.

Head of Badghis provincial council Mohammad Nasir Nazaari confirmed the execution and said the Qadis district is entirely under Taliban control.

Civilised chappies aren't they? -
The trouble is we don't understand their culture and beliefs

[Twelvevolts]

I changed channels the other day form the New Zealand news broadcasts where everyone seemed to be suggesting New Zealand troops shouldn't be in Afghanistan, to the ABC news where they were showing a young women who was going from Afghanistan to the US for treatment because she had had her nose sawn off and just had a big hole in the front of her head. Seemed to me after watching that we should stay there.

[Cicero]

It's a terrible culture that can justify such actions,we are talking savages.

We see some of it here with treatment of children.

[Battleneter2]

lol KenESmith

You are really buying into the "we are there for there freedom" hero crap.

Every day thousands of people are either killed or raped in a number of African countries. Lets not forget the 10 of THOUSANDS of kids and people dying from starvation on earth "every" day.

This war is NOT about freedom, that's the crap that CNN has come up with to make the US public feel better about themselves, who wants to think they are killing Savilians for resources!

The war is about destroying the infrastructure of a militant group "Al-Qaeda" who are backed by a number of countries Iran, was Iraq, Syria to fight for regional and resource control. These countries realise they cannot fight the US head on. The US calls it "Terrorism", those countries feel the US is dominating there region with there military and influence.

[Cicero]

Always beware of those that have the answer.

[kenj]

With reference to the First Afghan War in 1842........

http://www.britishbattles.com/first-afghan-war/kabul-gandamak.htm

To save you looking, I found these points of interest on this site.

"The First Afghan War provided the clear lesson to the British authorities that while it may be relatively straightforward to invade Afghanistan it is wholly impracticable to occupy the country or attempt to impose a government not welcomed by the inhabitants. The only result will be failure and great expense in treasure and lives."

"The British Army learnt a number of lessons from this sorry episode. One was that the political officers must not be permitted to predominate over military judgments."

The Russians found the same '1979-89

The CIA funded the Taliban to fight against the Russians.

The Americans are finding the same thing.

Strange bedfellows methinks!!

Ken

[Whenu]

"Savilians", must need saving, never heard of them

[johcar]

"Savilians", must need saving, never heard of them

They are inhabitants of Savilia.

Didn't you pass Geography, Whenu!?? :D

[Cicero]

They are inhabitants of Savilia.

Didn't you pass Geography, Whenu!?? :D

Understandable ,not many people know that

[KenESmith]

I am fully in agreement with the concept of destroying Al Quaida and its support base, wherever it may be, because militant Islamic terrorism will continue to be a thorn in the side of the United States and its allies, and pose a threat to the safety of civilians in western countries while Al Quaida and kindred organisations continue to exists. The USA and its allies don't need to apologise to anyone for taking such a stance.

In fact the rules of engagement should be relaxed so that the coalition is not constantly fighting with one arm tied behind their backs, because the other side have no problems with inflicting heavy collateral damage on their own peoples.

Perhaps some of the younger elements of society need reminding that there is no defence for moral cowardice, to sit by when attrocities are being committed, using the arguement, that it is no concern of theirs. All free nations and their peoples should be concerned, and this is not hand wringing concern, but having the guts to stand up and do something about it.

Nato rose to the challenge in Bosnia and Kosovo. It is tragic that the plight of Ruandans were ignored by the world, but hopefully the world and the UN in particular have moved on since then. Well some countries in the Western world seem to be capable of making a half hearted effort - but the UN, by and large no.

[Winston001]

lol KenESmith

You are really buying into the "we are there for there freedom" hero crap.

Every day thousands of people are either killed or raped in a number of African countries.....

The war is about destroying the infrastructure of a militant group "Al-Qaeda" who are backed by a number of countries Iran, was Iraq, Syria to fight for regional and resource control. These countries realise they cannot fight the US head on. The US calls it "Terrorism", those countries feel the US is dominating there region with there military and influence.

I sort of agree with you but having hit Al-Qaeda and removed the Taliban government, the coalition forces couldn't walk out and leave a vacuum. But Ken is dead right - nobody since Alexander has controlled Afghanistan.

We are at the stage where we need a world military force to bring stability and order to some nations. We could afford it globally but as yet not politically.

Simple principles: rule of law and civil order. Equality of opportunity. You can have an Islamic state provided you adapt to the principles. Indonesia is a good if imperfect example.

As for the millions of starving people - this leaves me in despair. The problem is rampant population growth in the poorest countries and has nothing to do with the USA security policies. But how can you tell people not to have children? Its the most fundamental thing a human does.

[KarameaDave]

Everyone in the world could easily be fed...if we shared.
But that is communism...isn't it?

[Battleneter2]

I am fully in agreement with the concept of destroying Al Quaida and its support base, wherever it may be, because militant Islamic terrorism

What you call "terrorism" is what others call "freedom fighting". There are millions in the world that see the United States Military action as a type of "Terrorism", and this is how they fight back. Understanding both sides is the first step to actually finding a solution.

Afghanistan war is in DIRECT repsonce to 911 not "freedom fighting"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29
"in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the US" & "to remove the safe haven to Al-Qaeda".

Of course the US public were horrified and needed to be appeased as soon as possible.


And before we all get on our high horses about human rights, lets remember the Patriot Act in the US has removed nearly all major Citizens rights, Guantánamo Bay is a torture camp WITHOUT trail.

And the US shoots its citizens as well
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37759499/

Perspective is about how much "spin" you put on events to sell the public to enter the US army or join Al-Qaeda.

[kenj]

He was going to be executed. He asked for the firing squad option.

Ken

[Twelvevolts]

What you call "terrorism" is what others call "freedom fighting". There are millions in the world that see the United States Military action as a type of "Terrorism", and this is how they fight back. Understanding both sides is the first step to actually finding a solution.

Afghanistan war is in DIRECT repsonce to 911 not "freedom fighting"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afghanistan_%282001%E2%80%93present%29
"in response to the September 11, 2001 attacks on the US" & "to remove the safe haven to Al-Qaeda".

Of course the US public were horrified and needed to be appeased as soon as possible.


And before we all get on our high horses about human rights, lets remember the Patriot Act in the US has removed nearly all major Citizens rights, Guantánamo Bay is a torture camp WITHOUT trail.

And the US shoots its citizens as well
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37759499/

Perspective is about how much "spin" you put on events to sell the public to enter the US army or join Al-Qaeda.

I'm always amazed how people are able to come up with a anti-US spin on everything. Give you a choice of two countries to live in the US or Afghanistan, which one would you go to? You'd probably have made a good case that Hitler was misunderstood and the Americans caused WW 2, strangely their are nutters who even hold that point of view.

Freedom Fighting isn't flying planes into buildings, cutting off peoples noses, stoning people to death etc etc.

[gary67]

"Savilians", must need saving, never heard of them

Hers one here (http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://savalas.tv/media/images/recordcovers/this%2520is%2520telly%2520savalas.jpg&imgrefurl=http://savalas.tv/media/images/&usg=__EHMNovc520y8aN72OZXwqSlehws=&h=345&w=344&sz=25&hl=en&start=0&sig2=LUbB0JK7D5Us7yXAMLPzjA&tbnid=40ewAEPSXypOvM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=156&ei=IA1hTLrWG4vevQPT3-yCCQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dtelly%2Bsavalas%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D144 0%26bih%3D747%26gbv%3D2%26tbs%3Disch:1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=292&vpy=109&dur=781&hovh=225&hovw=224&tx=119&ty=91&oei=IA1hTLrWG4vevQPT3-yCCQ&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=35&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0) :thumbs:

[somebody]

Some fairly startling statistics showing the positive efforts that our PRT are contributing to: http://dimpost.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/afpak.jpg

[Whenu]

Next to Jibrovia?

[prefect]

I think everyone agrees we cant win the war in Afghanistan against the Taliban and Al qada. The people there will fight quite happily amongst themselves if there are no foreigners there.
That said just killing the evil buggers for target practice might be the go.

[Gobe1]

Everyone in the world could easily be fed...if we shared.
But that is communism...isn't it?

Ha they used to say that about the US military budget, remember, "if they stopped building weapons for 1 week it would feed all the hungry in the world for a year"
Same goes for the cathoilic church..... not weapons that is :rolleyes:
Personally i would rather they fixed the hungry in their own country first

[Battleneter2]

I'm always amazed how people are able to come up with a anti-US spin on everything. Give you a choice of two countries to live in the US or Afghanistan, which one would you go to? You'd probably have made a good case that Hitler was misunderstood and the Americans caused WW 2, strangely their are nutters who even hold that point of view.

Freedom Fighting isn't flying planes into buildings, cutting off peoples noses, stoning people to death etc etc.

Freedom fighting is bombing women and children in city zones?? oh wait they have spin for that to make you feel better (collateral damage). If your kid died in the Word Trade centre or in a US bombing run over baghdad what's the diff, in both instances the enemy killed your child!

I am always amazed how some people are so blind and one sided they never stop to think to look at what they are doing.

There are no "Good People" and "evil people" this is a naive way of looking at the world.

Hitler was able to thrive because of people like YOU, never looking at what they are doing believing that they are 100% in the right.

Just keep lapping up that CNN crap "they are trying to kill our way of life" lol, if it makes you feel better!

[mikebartnz]

It is tragic that the plight of Ruandans were ignored by the world, but hopefully the world and the UN in particular have moved on since then. Well some countries in the Western world seem to be capable of making a half hearted effort - but the UN, by and large no.
Trouble is the UN is as useless as the League of Nations but they are more dangerous as they have big ideas about global government.

[Battleneter2]

http://static.globalissues.org/i/military/10/country-distribution-2009.png

This is a war about resources, and regional control, who is in control?

A picture is worth a thousand words!

[mikebartnz]

I'm always amazed how people are able to come up with a anti-US spin on everything. Give you a choice of two countries to live in the US or Afghanistan, which one would you go to? You'd probably have made a good case that Hitler was misunderstood and the Americans caused WW 2, strangely their are nutters who even hold that point of view.

Freedom Fighting isn't flying planes into buildings, cutting off peoples noses, stoning people to death etc etc.
Haven't you learnt to ignore Battleneter2 ramblings yet.

[Battleneter2]

Haven't you learnt to ignore Battleneter2 ramblings yet.

Well you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink, some horses are just to stupid and brainwashed mike :)

[Gobe1]

There are no "Good People" and "evil people" this is a naive way of looking at the world.

I disagree with that statement: There are no good people, but there are evil people

[mikebartnz]

Well you can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink, some horses are just to stupid and brainwashed mike :)
Don't forget uneducated.

[Cicero]

That said just killing the evil buggers for target practice might be the go.

Now that would appeal.

[Battleneter2]

Don't forget uneducated.

look dont be so hard on yourself, I understand why you buy everything you see on the news. Its just a matter of looking through the smoke screen mike .The first step is accepting you have a problem!

[KenESmith]

Battleneter2 , if you think the Taliban have got such a justifiable cause, why don't you book a flight to Pakistan, travel to the NW frontier, and join them.
I am sure that we could organise a wip round to buy you a ticket, if your convictions don't stretch to paying your own fair to the war zone, I am sure many would be happy to subscribe.
Hope if you a caught by the coalition forces that you are not treated as leniently as David Hicks.

[mikebartnz]

Battleneter2 , if you think the Taliban have got such a justifiable cause, why don't you book a flight to Pakistan, travel to the NW frontier, and join them.
I am sure that we could organise a wip round to buy you a ticket, if your convictions don't stretch to paying your own fair to the war zone, I am sure many would be happy to subscribe.
Hope if you a caught by the coalition forces that you are not treated as leniently as David Hicks.
:clap:banana:clap:punk

[Twelvevolts]

Freedom fighting is bombing women and children in city zones?? oh wait they have spin for that to make you feel better (collateral damage). If your kid died in the Word Trade centre or in a US bombing run over baghdad what's the diff, in both instances the enemy killed your child!

I am always amazed how some people are so blind and one sided they never stop to think to look at what they are doing.

There are no "Good People" and "evil people" this is a naive way of looking at the world.

Hitler was able to thrive because of people like YOU, never looking at what they are doing believing that they are 100% in the right.

Just keep lapping up that CNN crap "they are trying to kill our way of life" lol, if it makes you feel better!

I take it that was your vote for living in Afghanistan.

[angry]

bn2

what do we have here???

Anti American to the point of insanity.

Unwilling to conceed basic facts.

Promotes nzl withdrawal from afghanistan, and Muslim innocence.

like cicero I believe there is nothing lower than a dobber, not even child molesters.

But, is report someone for possibly rendering political assistance to the enemy "alqueda", dobbing??

after all we are unofficialy at war with alqueda.

:)

Further more is not who we are fighting in Afghanistan, but what.

The enemy is a many headed and named hydra, birthed in the Muslim militant fundamentalist cespool.

many of us will have gone quietly and peacefully to our graves before this one is over.

At the risk of insulting churchill, we are far, far, from the end of the beginning.

[prefect]

There is nothing wrong with being anti american, they are the most arrogant ******* country in the world.
I do hope they find the weapons of mass destruction they are looking for, the reason they invaded Iraq.
Fighting Al Quada and the Taleban is a lost cause other than than the satisfaction of bowling them over. In their mind they are not terrorists but freedom fighters trying to get foreign forces out of their country.
If NZ was Afghanistan or Iraq I would be trying to kill as many foreign occupiers as I could. Bombing preferably because in a fire fight I would come second with my trusty 303.

[mikebartnz]

There is nothing wrong with being anti american, they are the most arrogant ******* country in the world.
I do hope they find the weapons of mass destruction they are looking for, the reason they invaded Iraq.
Fighting Al Quada and the Taleban is a lost cause other than than the satisfaction of bowling them over. In their mind they are not terrorists but freedom fighters trying to get foreign forces out of their country.
If NZ was Afghanistan or Iraq I would be trying to kill as many foreign occupiers as I could. Bombing preferably because in a fire fight I would come second with my trusty 303.
But would you resort to cutting off noses, ears, hands and feet as well as using your young kids to do things no kid should ever have to do and encourage your brother/sister to become a suicide bomber killing innocent civilians of your own ilk.

[Cicero]

But would you resort to cutting off noses, ears, hands and feet as well as using your young kids to do things no kid should ever have to do and encourage your brother/sister to become a suicide bomber killing innocent civilians of your own ilk.

How did you find out what my hobby is?

[mikebartnz]

How did you find out what my hobby is?
I'm sorry but I didn't know you went under two names.:cool:

[prefect]

But would you resort to cutting off noses, ears, hands and feet as well as using your young kids to do things no kid should ever have to do and encourage your brother/sister to become a suicide bomber killing innocent civilians of your own ilk.

Perhaps you misunderstood my position on the Taliban
They are truly evil with bells on and worthy of killing on sight, what they do revolts me like most Western Europeans.
But and aint there always a but, you cant win against them there are just too many to kill, they come from the majority Pashtun ethnic line. They are just plain backwards and do stuff we used to do hundreds of years ago.The best thing Western European countries can do is use killing them as training for their armies, but sooner or later we gotta cut our losses and split from the place.
They do have a valid cause in their of fighting foreign armies in their country though, against the corrupt Karzai government. If I was in Afghanistan and a Pashtun I would be fighting against foreign troops and the government although not with an AK. I would like a rifle with a better cartridge.
Corrupt is one thing you couldnt accuse the Taliban of being when they were in power.

[Gobe1]

I always thought the AK was a superb weapon

[prefect]

It has some fine qualities except for the cartridge speed and size

[Battleneter2]

bn2

what do we have here???

Anti American to the point of insanity.

Unwilling to conceed basic facts.

Promotes nzl withdrawal from afghanistan, and Muslim innocence.

like cicero I believe there is nothing lower than a dobber, not even child molesters.

But, is report someone for possibly rendering political assistance to the enemy "alqueda", dobbing??

after all we are unofficialy at war with alqueda.

:)

Further more is not who we are fighting in Afghanistan, but what.

The enemy is a many headed and named hydra, birthed in the Muslim militant fundamentalist cespool.

many of us will have gone quietly and peacefully to our graves before this one is over.

At the risk of insulting churchill, we are far, far, from the end of the beginning.

Definitely not Anti American specific. Anti ignorance. Sure the US is the leading country in the West and takes a fair amount of the heat.

I actually don't have a major issue with the Iraq or Afgan war. I have a big issues with those that support those wars not have a freaken clue what they are "really" about and its sure as hell not freedom or religion at the root.

[mikebartnz]

or religion at the root.
Just about all wars have been caused by religion and the Afghan one is religion but the Iraqi war is partly oil.

[Battleneter2]

Just about all wars have been caused by religion and the Afghan one is religion but the Iraqi war is partly oil.

No religion is a tool not the cause, but your on the right track with oil.....regional and resource control $$

[mikebartnz]

No religion is a tool not the cause, but your on the right track with oil.....regional and resource control $$
It is a tool as far as the higher ups are concerned but a cause for most of the masses.

[Battleneter2]

It is a tool as far as the higher ups are concerned but a cause for most of the masses.

Sure both sides use religion to meet underling objectives. The West wants to maintain a strong presence in the middle east for resource reasons, and a variety of other countries and groups wants us out.

From the Wests point of view Afghanistan is an attempt to take out the infrastructure of the opposing army (or if you must Terrorists). We are not there to save innocent civilians from the Taliban like the OP suggests.

[mikebartnz]

Sure both sides use religion to meet underling objectives. The West wants to maintain a strong presence in the middle east for resource reasons, and a variety of other countries and groups wants us out.

From the Wests point of view Afghanistan is an attempt to take out the infrastructure of the opposing army (or if you must Terrorists). We are not there to save innocent civilians from the Taliban like the OP suggests.
You make it sound all very simple but it is never like that and I think you need to take one of your blinkers off.l

[johcar]

The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe. -Ed Krebs, photographer (b. 1951)

[Twelvevolts]

Sure both sides use religion to meet underling objectives. The West wants to maintain a strong presence in the middle east for resource reasons, and a variety of other countries and groups wants us out.

From the Wests point of view Afghanistan is an attempt to take out the infrastructure of the opposing army (or if you must Terrorists). We are not there to save innocent civilians from the Taliban like the OP suggests.

Funny how you think you are the only one capable of knowing what is really going on, but then you conspiracy types always have the inside running on the truth, or at least you always think you do.

[Battleneter2]

Funny how you think you are the only one capable of knowing what is really going on, but then you conspiracy types always have the inside running on the truth, or at least you always think you do.


What Conspiracy?, these fights for regional and resource control have been going on since the beginning of man lol, religion has always been used as a tool to motivate the weak.

I remember VERY clearly what Bush stated when invading Afghanistan, it was to disable Al-Qaeda support structure in response to 911.

As the years ground on, more of this "free the people crap" seeped in. If you are going to back the war at least get it right, take those rose coloured glasses off!

If you use your brain and ask "What do the so called Terrorists really want" then you can start looking at all this far more objectively.



The World is divided into armed camps ready to commit genocide just because we can't agree on whose fairy tales to believe. -Ed Krebs, photographer (b. 1951)

Ha, that pretty much sums it up

[Twelvevolts]

If you use your brain and ask "What do the so called Terrorists really want" then you can start looking at all this far more objectively.



Oh please tell us all knowing one.

[Metla]

Triple scoop (orange chocolate chip,goody gum-drops, cookies and cream) chocolate dipped ice-cream.

Its what everybody wants.

[Twelvevolts]

Triple scoop (orange chocolate chip,goody gum-drops, cookies and cream) chocolate dipped ice-cream.

Its what everybody wants.

With or without nuts?

[mikebartnz]

Triple scoop (orange chocolate chip,goody gum-drops, cookies and cream) chocolate dipped ice-cream.

Its what everybody wants.
You can keep it besides I didn't think you liked ice-cream eaters.

[Battleneter2]

Oh please tell us all knowing one.

What do the Terrorist actually want you mean?

Why dont you give us your take on it, love to hear it :)

[Snorkbox]

Obviously the whole deal was thought up by the Sensible Sentencing people would be twelvevolts take on Afghanistan.

[mikebartnz]

Obviously the whole deal was thought up by the Sensible Sentencing people would be twelvevolts take on Afghanistan.
I had real trouble trying to decipher that sentence.

[prefect]

Sickly liberals will be the downfall of our Western civilization, they need to found and dropped off in Taliban areas with a big crusader like cross tattooed on their face.

[mikebartnz]

What do the Terrorist actually want you mean?

Why dont you give us your take on it, love to hear it :)
Oh great answer a question with a question. You would make a good politician.

[Battleneter2]

Oh great answer a question with a question. You would make a good politician.

No seriously Mike, what do Al-Qaeda actually want?

I really do want to hear your thoughts, maybe I am wrong!

[KenESmith]

The aim of resource control does not feature in the Afghanistan conflict, unless one sees the annual opium poppy crop as a resource.
At no time was it suggestted that the objective of removing an evil repressive Taliban regime, for the civil betterment of the country, and preventing their resurgence was the primary objective of the operation, it is merely a collateral benfit.
The aim was to destroy terrorst Al Quaeda command and training organisation along with the regime giving them succour, and this is a very justifiable objective that should be supported by those who believe that the freedoms and way of life that is enjoyed in the western democracies should be defended and preserved.
There are no shortage of references that show that a militant minority are determined to create a worldwide Islamic Caliphate.

[Twelvevolts]

What do the Terrorist actually want you mean?

Why dont you give us your take on it, love to hear it :)

So you don't know. Here I was thinking you were typing from a cave somewhere.

[Twelvevolts]

Obviously the whole deal was thought up by the Sensible Sentencing people would be twelvevolts take on Afghanistan.

Actually people who think we should have tough sentencing of the Iranian type should move to the places that have it - but of course they never do.

[angry]

There is nothing wrong with being anti american, they are the most arrogant ******* country in the world.
I do hope they find the weapons of mass destruction they are looking for, the reason they invaded Iraq.
Fighting Al Quada and the Taleban is a lost cause other than than the satisfaction of bowling them over. In their mind they are not terrorists but freedom fighters trying to get foreign forces out of their country.
If NZ was Afghanistan or Iraq I would be trying to kill as many foreign occupiers as I could. Bombing preferably because in a fire fight I would come second with my trusty 303.


"There is nothing wrong with being anti american, they are the most arrogant ******* country in the world."

wrong.

The INDIAN position on global warming and their right to have per captia pollution equall to america makes them 1000% more arrogant as a nation than america any and every day.

Much of the alleged arrogance of americans is in fact ignorance, not to be confused with arrogance.


FACT.

Sadam had wmd, he used them, but not against the coalition, in either conflict, because he was scared of getting his arse nuked.

The last of them went to syria, along with at least 1 fighter wing.

[KenESmith]

There is a difference between tough sentencing and barbaric sentencing.
The trouble is too many in NZ thing a slap across the wrist with a damp bus ticket is reasonable sentencing.
There needs to be an element of justice in the sentencing handed down, both restorative and punitive. The sentence should have a sufficient punative element to effectively discourage re-offending.

[angry]

Just about all wars have been caused by religion and the Afghan one is religion but the Iraqi war is partly oil.


THE AMERICANS WANT THE OIL

THE AMERICANS WANT THE OIL THE AMERICANS WANT THE OIL (continued for far to long)

get a new record.

Neither "UN Sanctioned" iraqi conflict has been about oil.

if the us wanted the oil, they would have gone to full occupation, alone, and taken it.

They have yet to do this,

because IT WAS, AND IS NOT, AN OIL WAR.

The last iraqui conflict was more about GW's ego, than oil.

The conflict in Afghanistan is not about religion

(A war against Islam persay)

It is a conflict against Militant fudamentalists, stone age (Thinking), Taliban and al queda elements.

If they would stay in afghanistan, and just fight each other, I would say leave, "TODAY".

But as 911 proved, they want armageddon so we must stay, for as long as it takes, whatever the cost.

This is not, and never has been a resource conflict.

It is about preventing a bunch of religeous maniacs enforcing their lifstyle choice on the whole planet.

[angry]

Sickly liberals will be the downfall of our Western civilization, they need to found and dropped off in Taliban areas with a big crusader like cross tattooed on their face.

aye

[KenESmith]

One could store sufficient biological agents to depopulate a large proportion of Europe in a single shipping container, and how easy would that be to hide in a desert simply by burying it during a sand storm, so that the activity wouldn't be observable from a satellite.

[mikebartnz]

No seriously Mike, what do Al-Qaeda actually want?

I really do want to hear your thoughts, maybe I am wrong!
They wouldn't truly know themselves so why ask me. It is just like the crap in Ireland over recent years, mainly religion.

[Battleneter2]

So you don't know. Here I was thinking you were typing from a cave somewhere.

US backed Saddam Hussein in the early 80's (well known fact but for those that disbelieve)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

The relationship went pear shaped and it was necessary to remove him. Saddam, Iran, Syria groups in Pakistan, and others back Al-Qaeda to fight Western interests. Religion is used to motivate both sides, but it basically boils down to $$(oil) once you blow away the smoke screen.

You could write 1000's of pages on this conflict, but no one will ever read it, best you can do is try and make people think for themselves.

Read this a while back fairly amusing quick read.
http://humanrights.change.org/blog/view/so_just_why_does_al_qaeda_want_to_harm_us

[angry]

US backed Saddam Hussein in the early 80's (well known fact but for those that disbelieve)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

The relationship went pear shaped and it was necessary to remove him. Saddam, Iran, Syria groups in Pakistan, and others back Al-Qaeda to fight Western interests. Religion is used to motivate both sides, but it basically boils down to $$(oil) once you blow away the smoke screen.

You could write 1000's of pages on this conflict, but no one will ever read it, best you can do is try and make people think for themselves.

Read this a while back fairly amusing quick read.
http://humanrights.change.org/blog/view/so_just_why_does_al_qaeda_want_to_harm_us

we know the us ONCE backed sadam and iran AT THE SAME TIME. (I wonder if you understand the rationale of that).

This conflict is NOT about resources.

you claim to know soo much, but you keep banging the same resources myth drum.

In this conflict, resources are weapons, not the reason for the conflict.

That is one reason why Iran keeps funding the conflict, and wants it in helmand.

Do you know why they want to keep it there?????????

[Battleneter2]

we know the us ONCE backed sadam and iran AT THE SAME TIME. (I wonder if you understand the rationale of that).



Covering your bases, which ever country you can manipulate, seems fair enough.


Your not going far enough, for example if Iran developed Nuclear weapons the US cannot pressure Iran, the option to ever invade is gone and they know it!.

Do you ""seriously"" think its coincidence Iraq is probably the second largest oil reserve in the world?


There are dictators in Africa that make Saddam look like an angle, where is the US there?

[Twelvevolts]

There are dictators in Africa that make Saddam look like an angle, where is the US there?

Saddam is dead - he doesn't look like an angle these days, acute or obtuse.

I'd sharpen up your research though as plenty of oil in Africa. Even more in Canada so I guess we should expect that the US will invade Canada any day now following your theory.

[angry]

Covering your bases, which ever country you can manipulate, seems fair enough.


Your not going far enough, for example if Iran developed Nuclear weapons the US cannot pressure Iran, the option to ever invade is gone and they know it!.


Do you ""seriously"" think its coincidence Iraq is probably the second largest oil reserve in the world?


There are dictators in Africa that make Saddam look like an angle, where is the US there?

"Covering your bases, which ever country you can manipulate, seems fair enough."

Wrong.

"Your not going far enough, for example if Iran developed Nuclear weapons the US cannot pressure Iran, the option to ever invade is gone and they know it!."

Wrong

do you think iran will ever be allowed to have nukes?

If you do you have some very big problems.

AS for the rest, your so addicted to the resource drum you cant see anything else.

I see you ducked the "helmad" Question

[mikebartnz]

US backed Saddam Hussein in the early 80's (well known fact but for those that disbelieve)
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/ (http://www.gwu.edu/%7Ensarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/)

The relationship went pear shaped and it was necessary to remove him. Saddam, Iran, Syria groups in Pakistan, and others back Al-Qaeda to fight Western interests. Religion is used to motivate both sides, but it basically boils down to $$(oil) once you blow away the smoke screen.
The west's history of backing leaders etc in the east is about as good as my backing horses. You win some you loose some.

[mikebartnz]

Do you ""seriously"" think its coincidence Iraq is probably the second largest oil reserve in the world?
Having talked to some one a while ago we actually have rather large oil reserves here.
The Afghan war has absolutely nothing to do with resources.

[Battleneter2]

Saddam is dead - he doesn't look like an angle these days, acute or obtuse.

I'd sharpen up your research though as plenty of oil in Africa. Even more in Canada so I guess we should expect that the US will invade Canada any day now following your theory.

Really!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/World_Oil_Reserves_by_Region.PNG

There is some proven reserves in Africa sure, and yes Canada is very oil rich with it tar sands, be it expensive to extract.

This is not about American companies rolling up and pumping stolen oil into 42 gallon Oil barrels lol, that is a somewhat simplistic image, but there is a war raging over the control of oil none the less.





The Afghan war has absolutely nothing to do with resources.

Yea it does, the opposing army was/is based in Afghanistan and the US is there to neutralise them. No country wants to officially "host" Al-Qaeda as they will clearly be invaded. Afghanistan was easy to operate out of as its a basket case of a country as we all know.

[mikebartnz]

Yea it does, the opposing army was/is based in Afghanistan and the US is there to neutralise them. No country wants to officially "host" Al-Qaeda as they will clearly be invaded. Afghanistan was easy to operate out of as its a basket case of a country as we all know.
So what is the resource you are talking about?:rolleyes:

[angry]

So what is the resource you are talking about?:rolleyes:


bn 2 cant tell you because he dosent know what the f he is talking about.

( he cant answer the question i put to him about helmand, and iran's involvment there, because he dosen't know)

bn2 is addicted to the MYTH that "The americans want the oil", and is to ignorant to see that this conflict is a lot more serious than a mere "resourse war".

All resouce wars can be setteled by negotiation(and most ultimately are) because in a resource war, the armed conflict is nothing more than an extension of business and politics.

as iterated by: fredric the great, von manstien, klausawits ect.

as opposed to an Ideoligical war.

Where: A change of demographics, An out right victory, or as in the case of bandon achea (Indonesian Tusnami), a catastrophic natural disaster, are the cause of a cessation of hostilitys.

However ideoligical conflicts have this habit of coming back to life. Particularly if there is no cultural and ideological assimilation between the combatants.

[Battleneter2]

Lets look at the actual facts clear of opinion.

1. The US spend 10X plus more on there military than ANY other country on earth (so what you say).

2. The Middle East has by far the most of the "easily obtainable" proven oil reserves.

3. The US is occupying a country with the 4th largest proven oil reserves (keep in mind its probably 3rd or 2nd largest, but little prospecting in the last decade due to the ongoing conflict).

4. The US seems very preoccupied with Iran and they "claim" Iran has helped support Al-Qaeda . Iran itself has the 3rd largest proven Oil reserve. I fully believe this is true, Iran indeed does help support Al-Qaeda.

5. The US is in Afghanistan to eliminate Al-Qaeda (President Bush Stated that live on TV, I remember very clearly!).

6. The US was Extremely quick to expel Saddam out of Kuwait a small country with the worlds 6th largest Oil reserves.


Mike and Angry, I can only describe you both as brainwashed red-necks with no ability to think for yourselves. If you want to go ahead and think this all all about freedom and right and wrong knock yourselves out. Of course this conflict is about Oil and regional control.

If you want to rebut what I am saying then by all means type up a believable response to "What the so called Terrorist actually want", basically put up or shut up :)

[mikebartnz]

Mike and Angry, I can only describe you both as brainwashed red-necks with no ability to think for yourselves. If you want to go ahead and think this all all about freedom and right and wrong knock yourselves out. Of course this conflict is about Oil and regional control.

If you want to rebut what I am saying then by all means type up a believable response to "What the so called Terrorist actually want", basically put up or shut up :)
You really do get rather boring and rather stupid as I have never said it is about freedom and right and wrong. I think it is time we all just shut up as we aren't going to convince you from your beliefs and you aren't going to convince us. I just don't hate the Yanks and love the Chinese government as you do.

[Battleneter2]

You really do get rather boring and rather stupid as I have never said it is about freedom and right and wrong. I think it is time we all just shut up as we aren't going to convince you from your beliefs and you aren't going to convince us. I just don't hate the Yanks and love the Chinese government as you do.

So what do the terrorist want Mike? lol

your kinda funny

[mikebartnz]

So what do the terrorist want Mike? lol

your kinda funny
Post #68

Funny ha ha or funny peculiar.

[Battleneter2]

Funny ha ha or funny peculiar.

What's your take on Al-Qaeda's objectives and motivations?, you have the guts to criticise others, but no guts to give us your take on this.

but your looking good :P
http://api.ning.com/files/rg8JEyviTo1ownGqxs4mCKf1nH5IOBKZC6Vkiiuita9N0fzEZs O50VxW2GgufTzODH67burvjPn7d7fSnTB55xVae-SVHX4u/redneck.jpg

[mikebartnz]

What's your take on Al-Qaeda's objectives and motivations?, you have the guts to criticise others, but no guts to give us your take on this.

but your looking good :P
http://api.ning.com/files/rg8JEyviTo1ownGqxs4mCKf1nH5IOBKZC6Vkiiuita9N0fzEZs O50VxW2GgufTzODH67burvjPn7d7fSnTB55xVae-SVHX4u/redneck.jpg
You must be thick. Go and have a look at post #68.
It is time for you to grow up as you were asked that question by some one else and have not answered.

[angry]

Lets look at the actual facts clear of opinion.

1. The US spend 10X plus more on there military than ANY other country on earth (so what you say).

2. The Middle East has by far the most of the "easily obtainable" proven oil reserves.

3. The US is occupying a country with the 4th largest proven oil reserves (keep in mind its probably 3rd or 2nd largest, but little prospecting in the last decade due to the ongoing conflict).

4. The US seems very preoccupied with Iran and they "claim" Iran has helped support Al-Qaeda . Iran itself has the 3rd largest proven Oil reserve. I fully believe this is true, Iran indeed does help support Al-Qaeda.

5. The US is in Afghanistan to eliminate Al-Qaeda (President Bush Stated that live on TV, I remember very clearly!).

6. The US was Extremely quick to expel Saddam out of Kuwait a small country with the worlds 6th largest Oil reserves.


Mike and Angry, I can only describe you both as brainwashed red-necks with no ability to think for yourselves. If you want to go ahead and think this all all about freedom and right and wrong knock yourselves out. Of course this conflict is about Oil and regional control.

If you want to rebut what I am saying then by all means type up a believable response to "What the so called Terrorist actually want", basically put up or shut up :)

"1. The US spend 10X plus more on there military than ANY other country on earth (so what you say).

B S

China spends more than the us, on millitary expansion and supply, without supporting any overseas missions.

"3. The US is occupying a country with the 4th largest proven oil reserves (keep in mind its probably 3rd or 2nd largest, but little prospecting in the last decade due to the ongoing conflict)."

TOTAL B S.

The UN SANCTIONED COALITION is supervising and assisting the current iraqui administration ."

there has been no prospecting since the oil industry was nationalised, I belive in the 60's. nor has there been any investment in plant and equippment since the nationaliseation.

Which is why so few western companies want to go in there and invest in the industry because they know as soon as they put in all the new plant and get the production up the iraquis will rip them off with nationaliseation AGAIN.

Your anti US, blame the US for everything bias is showing badly here.



"6. The US was Extremely quick to expel Saddam out of Kuwait a small country with the worlds 6th largest Oil reserves. "

TOTAL B S.

a UNITED NATIONS SANCTIONED COALITION expelled sadam for Kuwait. the first shots in that expulsion were fired by iraquis and SAUDIS.


who said this was about freedom, there is certainly very little of it here in the bumhole of the world.

If this was about reigonal controll the us would take it.

it isnt, and never has been.

Its the same as vietnam fight them in the east or fight them when they get here.

in 1973 every body crowed that the US had lost in vietnam.

South vietnam, cambodia and Laos fell to communist madmen, but the rest was saved.

1991 the majority of the red menace on the planet fell over.

25 years after the end of the vn conflict the review says, US objective in south east asia ACHEIVED.

The COALITION against the bearded maniacs will win in the end, if they dont it will be because the bearded maniacs got their way and the planet has been turned into a nuclear slag heap.

This conflict is probably going to last most of this century, according to some annalists.


The taleban want:

Planet taleban, where every one prays five times a day, where girls are not allowed to learn to, read, write, or go to school, and the women are barefoot, pregnant, moving about in public in a full body shroud.

The total destruction of the west and its life styles.

Where non muslims are slaves or dead.

and there wont be no pf1 either.

and thats just for starters.

you are now getting personal p brain because you can not support your untenable, war for resource anti US position with facts.

The insistance by you that the conflict is a resource war simply shows your ignorance and lack of balanced (or any) reaserch.

You are still ducking my question to you about iran and why they keep feeding the conflict in helmand.

you cant answer this, because you dont know what the F you are talking about

[Battleneter2]

"1. The US spend 10X plus more on there military than ANY other country on earth (so what you say).

B S

China spends more than the us, on millitary expansion and supply, without supporting any overseas missions.




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

KA are you tripping? sorry got a little carried away the US spends about 6.7X more on war than ANY country on earth. Its more than the next 10 countries combined!





"3. The US is occupying a country with the 4th largest proven oil reserves (keep in mind its probably 3rd or 2nd largest, but little prospecting in the last decade due to the ongoing conflict)."

TOTAL B S.

The UN SANCTIONED COALITION is supervising and assisting the current iraqui administration ."

there has been no prospecting since the oil industry was nationalised, I belive in the 60's. nor has there been any investment in plant and equippment since the nationaliseation.

Which is why so few western companies want to go in there and invest in the industry because they know as soon as they put in all the new plant and get the production up the iraquis will rip them off with nationaliseation AGAIN.




http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_res-energy-oil-reserves

Ka? Iraq has still the 4th largest proven oil reserves. I agree with your comments about investment. Its still the 4th and the US still occupies it! Well until the puppet government goes in anyway. These are facts, you can join the dots or believe its coincidence.




"6. The US was Extremely quick to expel Saddam out of Kuwait a small country with the worlds 6th largest Oil reserves. "

TOTAL B S.


a UNITED NATIONS SANCTIONED COALITION expelled sadam for Kuwait. the first shots in that expulsion were fired by iraquis and SAUDIS.


Sure the Coalition led by the US. My main point was for the such a small country didnt the West react fast!, wonder why hmmm let me think what does Kuwait have a lot of.......





The COALITION against the bearded maniacs will win in the end, if they dont it will be because the bearded maniacs got their way and the planet has been turned into a nuclear slag heap.



Yes they are all "bearded maniacs" ah!

So anyone that has a problem with the West's "foreign policy" is a bearded maniac, because here in the West Like the Nazi's we are 100% in the right and god is with us!. To hell with hearing there side, lets just kill em all! They will keep killing us, no need to try and find a middle ground.


So anyway what do those evil bearded maniacs "really" want Angry?. Be honest you haven't a clue.

[angry]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_military_expenditures

KA are you tripping? sorry got a little carried away the US spends about 6.7X more on war than ANY country on earth. Its more than the next 10 countries combined!





http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/ene_oil_res-energy-oil-reserves

Ka? Iraq has still the 4th largest proven oil reserves. I agree with your comments about investment. Its still the 4th and the US still occupies it! Well until the puppet government goes in anyway. These are facts, you can join the dots or believe its coincidence.



Sure the Coalition led by the US. My main point was for the such a small country didnt the West react fast!, wonder why hmmm let me think what does Kuwait have a lot of.......





Yes they are all "bearded maniacs" ah!

So anyone that has a problem with the West's "foreign policy" is a bearded maniac, because here in the West Like the Nazi's we are 100% in the right and god is with us!. To hell with hearing there side, lets just kill em all! They will keep killing us, no need to try and find a middle ground.


So anyway what do those evil bearded maniacs "really" want Angry?. Be honest you haven't a clue.


"So anyway what do those evil bearded maniacs "really" want Angry?. Be honest you haven't a clue."

I told you what they want, you havent disputed it or put forward any other options.

You just stick to your untennable worn out boring, its a resource war, THE AMERICANS WANT THE OIL.

You still havent answered my question on helmand because your 90 second google skim didnt bring it up, and thats all you know about this topic, for you its just another oppourtunity to beat on america. very pathetic and very booring.

I never said that western or american policys were correct.
or that they were the only way.

I said the bearded maniacs were NOT the way.

I said because of what the bearded maniacs want we have not choice but to deal with them on THEIR LEVEL AND BY THEIR RULES.

You continuiously grind your vendetta against america, you have yet to refute with facts anything i said about what the bearded maniacs want.

EG all you have and all you know is, america bad america bad.

go live in saudi or yemmen for a month, if you can survive there that long, and see how you bearded maniac mate's treat you, particularly in yemmen.

youll either come back with a very different oppinion/position or as a bearded maniac.

ill put money on the former.

bn2 = smelly hot air, no topic knowledge, untenable bias, score - 99.:D

[angry]

You really do get rather boring and rather stupid as I have never said it is about freedom and right and wrong. I think it is time we all just shut up as we aren't going to convince you from your beliefs and you aren't going to convince us. I just don't hate the Yanks and love the Chinese government as you do.


"I just don't hate the Yanks and love the Chinese government as you do."


I thought he wanted the bearded maniacs in control of the planet.

the chiness will shoot him, just as fast as the maniacs will cut off his head.

you can not change the position of A HATEFUL PROPAGANDIST for even when they know they are wrong they will not conceed it.

However it is not in the intrests of right to allow such a position to go unchallenged.

to do is disrespectful of the fallen in the fight against the tyrrany of the bearded maniacs.

[Battleneter2]

"I just don't hate the Yanks and love the Chinese government as you do."


I thought he wanted the bearded maniacs in control of the planet.

the chiness will shoot him, just as fast as the maniacs will cut off his head.

you can not change the position of A HATEFUL PROPAGANDIST for even when they know they are wrong they will not conceed it.

However it is not in the intrests of right to allow such a position to go unchallenged.

to do is disrespectful of the fallen in the fight against the tyrrany of the bearded maniacs.


Lets be very clear, Al-Qaeda is an army and they murder innocent civilians, but mind due there is well documented evidence of Western governments doing the same. RAINBOW WARRIOR ring any bells if you want a close to home example lol. Or am I spreading propaganda about the French government now?,

You cant work on peace if you dont "understand" your enemies grievances.

I am not suggesting you should "agree" with you enemies grievances, BUT you should at least know what they are.

Lastly Angry what do Al-Qaeda actually want? just answer that one VERY simple question! If you think I am wrong then you must have a real understanding of the conflict. Just calling them evil or nutters is incredibly naive.

[angry]

Lets be very clear, Al-Qaeda is an army and they murder innocent civilians, but mind due there is well documented evidence of Western governments doing the same. RAINBOW WARRIOR ring any bells if you want a close to home example lol. Or am I spreading propaganda about the French government now?,

You cant work on peace if you dont "understand" your enemies grievances.

I am not suggesting you should "agree" with you enemies grievances, BUT you should at least know what they are.

Lastly Angry what do Al-Qaeda actually want? just answer that one VERY simple question! If you think I am wrong then you must have a real understanding of the conflict. Just calling them evil or nutters is incredibly naive.

"Lastly Angry what do Al-Qaeda actually want? just answer that one VERY simple question! If you think I am wrong then you must have a real understanding of the conflict. Just calling them evil or nutters is incredibly naive."

i told you what they wanted, you are to bone idel to read the post, or more likely incapable of thinking up a spin for the truth.

Just as you keep ducking the question i put to you about helmand.

probably because your 90 second googles dont give you an easy anti american answer.

The french have always been terrorists, murderers and war mongers,

http://gaian2000.newsvine.com/_news/2009/02/28/2488869-the-complete-military-history-of-france-satire

there are several versions of this.

for some reason they leave out the first crusade which the french started with the pope.

[Twelvevolts]

I just love that we have a guy who criticises anyone for watching CNN and then quotes Wikipedia at the drop of a hat. Thank goodness we sorted out your source of information.

[angry]

Lets be very clear, Al-Qaeda is an army and they murder innocent civilians, but mind due there is well documented evidence of Western governments doing the same. RAINBOW WARRIOR ring any bells if you want a close to home example lol. Or am I spreading propaganda about the French government now?,

You cant work on peace if you dont "understand" your enemies grievances.

I am not suggesting you should "agree" with you enemies grievances, BUT you should at least know what they are.

Lastly Angry what do Al-Qaeda actually want? just answer that one VERY simple question! If you think I am wrong then you must have a real understanding of the conflict. Just calling them evil or nutters is incredibly naive.

"Lastly Angry what do Al-Qaeda actually want? just answer that one VERY simple question! If you think I am wrong then you must have a real understanding of the conflict. Just calling them evil or nutters is incredibly naive."

its in post 85, you blind as well as biased and on an anti american vendeta?.

[Snorkbox]

According to this story the Taliban want to "create a climate of fear"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10983494

[Battleneter2]

According to this story the Taliban want to "create a climate of fear"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-10983494

lol yea the "BBC"

and why do they want to create a climate of fear? fun? nothing else to do?

[Cicero]

and why do they want to create a climate of fear? fun? nothing else to do?

You say that as if they do have better things to do,just take another look at these fellows,it say it all.
Wuffians is what they are.

[Battleneter2]

"Lastly Angry what do Al-Qaeda actually want? just answer that one VERY simple question! If you think I am wrong then you must have a real understanding of the conflict. Just calling them evil or nutters is incredibly naive."

its in post 85, you blind as well as biased and on an anti american vendeta?.

I am not anti American Angry, just anti ignorance. Lets be very clear anyone that kills innocent civilians is a murderer be it the Al-quada army or the US army.

You just see everything from the "Wests" point of view because that's how we have been conditioned to think, very difficult to get passed that.

[angry]

I am not anti American Angry, just anti ignorance. Lets be very clear anyone that kills innocent civilians is a murderer be it the Al-quada army or the US army.

You just see everything from the "Wests" point of view because that's how we have been conditioned to think, very difficult to get passed that.


"You just see everything from the "Wests" point of view because that's how we have been conditioned to think, very difficult to get passed that."

BS

you no concept of my point of view on western lifestyles, consumerism or policys.

There are some very highly educated socalists in our family, invited to russia by stalins administration even, free of charge round trip.

and she went, govt of the day didnt take it very well either.

They didnt preach rabid anti americanism. they did however point out that there are americans, and the rest.

Just as she pointed out that the russians only showed her the rose gardens.

Back to topic.

you have not:

1 answered my question about helmad which tells me, and everbody that you are simply an anti american googler who really dosent know anything about the topic.

2 made any attempt to supply facts to sustain an opposing position to what i said the bearded maniacs want.

your making lots of smelly hot air, and not supplying any fact supported replys (outside the wkii propaganda pages) because you cant, you dont have any personal position or knoweledge, your just a parrot head for the bearded maniacs.

[Battleneter2]

"You just see everything from the "Wests" point of view because that's how we have been conditioned to think, very difficult to get passed that."

BS

you no concept of my point of view on western lifestyles, consumerism or policys.

There are some very highly educated socalists in our family, invited to russia by stalins administration even, free of charge round trip.

and she went, govt of the day didnt take it very well either.

They didnt preach rabid anti americanism. they did however point out that there are americans, and the rest.

Just as she pointed out that the russians only showed her the rose gardens.

Back to topic.

you have not:

1 answered my question about helmad which tells me, and everbody that you are simply an anti american googler who really dosent know anything about the topic.

2 made any attempt to supply facts to sustain an opposing position to what i said the bearded maniacs want.

your making lots of smelly hot air, and not supplying any fact supported replys (outside the wkii propaganda pages) because you cant, you dont have any personal position or knoweledge, your just a parrot head for the bearded maniacs.

I tell you what lets compromise, I will answer your question about Helmand if you can answer this really simple straight forward question.

Did France a "WESTERN" friendly nation carry out a terrorist attack on NZ soil in 1985, proving at the very least one Western nation uses "Terror" as you CNN guys like it?

Yes or no?


Just trying to find out if you can accept the West does ANYTHING wrong at all ever!

[angry]

I tell you what lets compromise, I will answer your question about Helmand if you can answer this really simple straight forward question.

Did France a "WESTERN" friendly nation carry out a terrorist attack on NZ soil in 1985, proving at the very least one Western nation uses "Terror" as you CNN guys like it?

Yes or no?


Just trying to find out if you can accept the West does ANYTHING wrong at all ever!

"Did France a "WESTERN" friendly nation carry out a terrorist attack on NZ soil in 1985, proving at the very least one Western nation uses "Terror" as you CNN guys like it?"

undoubatbly.

france aint no friendly western nation.

what sort of slimeballs sell high tech munitions to their allies enemys, when said allies are involved in publicly declared armed conflict with said enemys.??

The FRENCH.

france has started more wars directly or indirectly than almost any other nation in history

I aint no cnn guy as usuall you dont know WTF you are talking about.:annoyed:

[Battleneter2]

Well France is by no stretch the largest arms producer on earth I better not tell you who is, you will get all upset :P




That is one reason why Iran keeps funding the conflict, and wants it in helmand.

Do you know why they want to keep it there?????????



Ok not sure what exactly you are asking about, Iran's involvement in the drug production in Helmand province?

[angry]

Well France is by no stretch the largest arms producer on earth I better not tell you who is, you will get all upset :P





Ok not sure what exactly you are asking about, Iran's involvement in the drug production in Helmand province?

read the whole thing.

iran is and has allways been funding muslim millitants, particularly alqueda, particularly in their efforts in helmand province.

Iran has steered this particular part of the conflict to helmad and wants it kept there.

why??.

if you want to say drugs, then write it so.


the conflict is in helmand for a reason, you claim to know so much about this conflict and its whys, now we will see.

[Battleneter2]

read the whole thing.

iran is and has allways been funding muslim millitants, particularly alqueda, particularly in their efforts in helmand province.

Iran has steered this particular part of the conflict to helmad and wants it kept there.

why??.

if you want to say drugs, then write it so.


the conflict is in helmand for a reason, you claim to know so much about this conflict and its whys, now we will see.

Well geography is obviously a reason for the conflict being in Helmand, beyond that you are correct I am not sure what your getting at?

You are micro focused on a particular part of the conflict, I am talking about the struggle to maintain control in the middle east for the last 50 years!.

Its not "Just" an American issue, Russia has been heavily involved in the Middle East backing Iran in the Past.

[Snorkbox]

"You just see everything from the "Wests" point of view because that's how we have been conditioned to think, very difficult to get passed that."

BS

you no concept of my point of view on western lifestyles, consumerism or policys.

There are some very highly educated socalists in our family, invited to russia by stalins administration even, free of charge round trip.

and she went, govt of the day didnt take it very well either.

They didnt preach rabid anti americanism. they did however point out that there are americans, and the rest.

Just as she pointed out that the russians only showed her the rose gardens.

Back to topic.

you have not:

1 answered my question about helmad which tells me, and everbody that you are simply an anti american googler who really dosent know anything about the topic.

2 made any attempt to supply facts to sustain an opposing position to what i said the bearded maniacs want.

your making lots of smelly hot air, and not supplying any fact supported replys (outside the wkii propaganda pages) because you cant, you dont have any personal position or knoweledge, your just a parrot head for the bearded maniacs.

This makes me very curious.

You say this,
"There are some very highly educated socalists in our family, invited to russia by stalins administration even, free of charge round trip.

and she went, govt of the day didnt take it very well either."

Does some equate to one who went when you say she went which would imply that one person went at Stalin's invitation?

Stalin suceeded Lenin as I remember it. Self promoted very much like Hitler through the system as it was at that time. Adolf started as a Corporal. Stalin likewise was of humble stock but he embraced Communism and became reasonably high up. I have also studied Maori Wars as part of military history.

BTW I also note that both Lenin and Stalin went off to Siberia for an enforced holiday during their life times.

Further to that I would also note that it appears that a lot of Communism was passed around via Universities etc. Having said that I will be forever grateful to a so called communist who taught me more Maths in one year in my last year at school than I had learned prior to 1957.

Can you say, Angry, that you are not a product of your environment very much like I am?

Why would I believe a person who can't even remember a previous logon name or password from 2003?

You also say, "your making lots of smelly hot air, and not supplying any fact supported replys (outside the wkii propaganda pages) because you cant, you dont have any personal position or knoweledge, your just a parrot head for the bearded maniacs."

A little song for you coming up.

Here are the words,


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE BALLAD OF HARRY POLLITT

Harry was a bolshie and one of Lenin's lads
Was foully murdered by counter revolutionary cads
Counter revolutionary cads, counter revolutionary cads
Was foully murdered by counter revolutionary cads

He landed up in heaven trembling at the knees
'May I speak to God I am Mr. Pollitt please
Mr. Pollitt please, Mr. Pollitt please,
May I speak to God I am Mr. Pollitt please'

'Who are you' said God, 'if you're humble and contrite
And a friend of Lady Astor, then OK. you'll be alright
Then OK. you'll be alright, then OK. you'll be alright
And a friend of Lady Astor, then OK. you'll be alright'

They dressed him in a nightie, put a harp into his hand
And he played the Internationale in the hallelujah band
In the haleluia band, in the hallelujah band
He played the Internationale in the hallelujah band

They put him in the choir, the hymns he did not like
So he organized the angels and he fetched them out on strike
Fetched them out on strike, fetched them out on strike
He organized the angels and he fetched them out on strike

One day as God was walking around the heavenly state
Who should he see but Harry chalking slogans on the gate
Slogans on the gate, slogans on the gate
Who should he see but Harry chalking slogans on the gate

They put him up for trial before the Holy Ghost
Charged with disaffection amongst the heavenly host
Amongst the heavenly host, amongst the heavenly host
Charged with disaffection amongst the heavenly host

The verdict it was guilty, said Harry 'That is swell'
And he tucked his nightie 'round his knees and he floated down to hell
Floated down to hell, floated down to hell
He tucked his nightie 'round his knees and he floated down to hell

A few more years have ended, now Harry's doing swell
He's just been made the people's commissar for Soviet hell
Commissar for soviet hell, commissar for Soviet hell
He's just been made the people's commissar for Soviet hell

Now the moral of this story is easy for to tell,
If you want to be a Bolshevik, you'll have to got to hell,
You'll have to go to hell, Yes, you'll have to go to hell,
If you want to be a Bolshevik, You'll have to go to hell!"

@political
filename[ POLLITT
BH
OCT98

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I will now go search youtube and see if I can get a performance. It was a Folk song I sang in The Mon Marie Coffee Bar in Wellington. My brother played Guitar not electric in those days. We did not get paid but it was free coffee and toasted sandwiches for as long as we were there.

Does not appear to be on youtube but we also did this which you may like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG443N7lo4Q

We also did Peter, Paul and Mary things.

Like this only different.
This guy is a comic I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYCwOhPbk3A

or a better version of something else maybe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gO-jWKsqU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ9vuQvx1Eg&feature=related

If *I* had a Hammer I'd be Wainuitech.

[angry]

This makes me very curious.

You say this,
"There are some very highly educated socalists in our family, invited to russia by stalins administration even, free of charge round trip.

and she went, govt of the day didnt take it very well either."

Does some equate to one who went when you say she went which would imply that one person went at Stalin's invitation?

Stalin suceeded Lenin as I remember it. Self promoted very much like Hitler through the system as it was at that time. Adolf started as a Corporal. Stalin likewise was of humble stock but he embraced Communism and became reasonably high up. I have also studied Maori Wars as part of military history.

BTW I also note that both Lenin and Stalin went off to Siberia for an enforced holiday during their life times.

Further to that I would also note that it appears that a lot of Communism was passed around via Universities etc. Having said that I will be forever grateful to a so called communist who taught me more Maths in one year in my last year at school than I had learned prior to 1957.

Can you say, Angry, that you are not a product of your environment very much like I am?

Why would I believe a person who can't even remember a previous logon name or password from 2003?

You also say, "your making lots of smelly hot air, and not supplying any fact supported replys (outside the wkii propaganda pages) because you cant, you dont have any personal position or knoweledge, your just a parrot head for the bearded maniacs."

A little song for you coming up.

Here are the words,


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE BALLAD OF HARRY POLLITT

Harry was a bolshie and one of Lenin's lads
Was foully murdered by counter revolutionary cads
Counter revolutionary cads, counter revolutionary cads
Was foully murdered by counter revolutionary cads

He landed up in heaven trembling at the knees
'May I speak to God I am Mr. Pollitt please
Mr. Pollitt please, Mr. Pollitt please,
May I speak to God I am Mr. Pollitt please'

'Who are you' said God, 'if you're humble and contrite
And a friend of Lady Astor, then OK. you'll be alright
Then OK. you'll be alright, then OK. you'll be alright
And a friend of Lady Astor, then OK. you'll be alright'

They dressed him in a nightie, put a harp into his hand
And he played the Internationale in the hallelujah band
In the haleluia band, in the hallelujah band
He played the Internationale in the hallelujah band

They put him in the choir, the hymns he did not like
So he organized the angels and he fetched them out on strike
Fetched them out on strike, fetched them out on strike
He organized the angels and he fetched them out on strike

One day as God was walking around the heavenly state
Who should he see but Harry chalking slogans on the gate
Slogans on the gate, slogans on the gate
Who should he see but Harry chalking slogans on the gate

They put him up for trial before the Holy Ghost
Charged with disaffection amongst the heavenly host
Amongst the heavenly host, amongst the heavenly host
Charged with disaffection amongst the heavenly host

The verdict it was guilty, said Harry 'That is swell'
And he tucked his nightie 'round his knees and he floated down to hell
Floated down to hell, floated down to hell
He tucked his nightie 'round his knees and he floated down to hell

A few more years have ended, now Harry's doing swell
He's just been made the people's commissar for Soviet hell
Commissar for soviet hell, commissar for Soviet hell
He's just been made the people's commissar for Soviet hell

Now the moral of this story is easy for to tell,
If you want to be a Bolshevik, you'll have to got to hell,
You'll have to go to hell, Yes, you'll have to go to hell,
If you want to be a Bolshevik, You'll have to go to hell!"

@political
filename[ POLLITT
BH
OCT98

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I will now go search youtube and see if I can get a performance. It was a Folk song I sang in The Mon Marie Coffee Bar in Wellington. My brother played Guitar not electric in those days. We did not get paid but it was free coffee and toasted sandwiches for as long as we were there.

Does not appear to be on youtube but we also did this which you may like.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG443N7lo4Q

We also did Peter, Paul and Mary things.

Like this only different.
This guy is a comic I think.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYCwOhPbk3A

or a better version of something else maybe.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5gO-jWKsqU&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQ9vuQvx1Eg&feature=related

If *I* had a Hammer I'd be Wainuitech.


"Does some equate to one who went when you say she went which would imply that one person went at Stalin's invitation?"

that would be correct

"Can you say, Angry, that you are not a product of your environment very much like I am?"

No i can not say i am not, we are all such.

Do you take society into the context of enviroment also?

"Why would I believe a person who can't even remember a previous logon name or password from 2003?"

I can remember the name, cant remeber the pw, found it once and lost it again. Got this one now, run with that.

as that ( cant remember 2003 )statment is not totally accurate now i suppose i should correct it.

[angry]

Well geography is obviously a reason for the conflict being in Helmand, beyond that you are correct I am not sure what your getting at?

You are micro focused on a particular part of the conflict, I am talking about the struggle to maintain control in the middle east for the last 50 years!.

Its not "Just" an American issue, Russia has been heavily involved in the Middle East backing Iran in the Past.

"Well geography is obviously a reason for the conflict being in Helmand, beyond that you are correct I am not sure what your getting at?"

pretty pathetic. although the gegraphics do come into it.

if you KNEW anything about this conflict and what is really going on a "THE AMERICANS WANT THE OIL ITS A RESOURCE WAR" drum beater should be able to to a lot better than that off the top of his head.

which proves my point.

YOU DONT KNOW S T ABOUT THIS CONFLICT.


"You are micro focused on a particular part of the conflict, I am talking about the struggle to maintain control in the middle east for the last 50 years!. "

GET BACK ON TOPIC STOP TRYING TO RUN AWAY OR SHIFT THE ISSUE.

Also again you just showed you complete lack of true knoweledge.

the great game is as old as the oil industry.

with out checking the dates, at least 115 years.

"Its not "Just" an American issue, Russia has been heavily involved in the Middle East backing Iran in the Past."


Er when did they (the russians) stop (Backing Iran)????


You need to do much better on the helmand question very quickly or your credability becomes 0 because you simply should know this.

Its a factor in what has been going on in the greater reigon since at least 47

[angry]

This makes me very curious.

You say this,
"There are some very highly educated socalists in our family, invited to russia by stalins administration even, free of charge round trip.

and she went, govt of the day didnt take it very well either."

Does some equate to one who went when you say she went which would imply that one person went at Stalin's invitation?



If *I* had a Hammer I'd be Wainuitech.

Snork box I was more intrested in seeing what Mr hot air had to say which was infact very little about a major factor in the whole reigonal conflict.

The russian traveler then went on to become a senior organiser for "CND", and was also a senior organiser of the "greenham common" incident's.

offending her goverment and the americans on many occasions.

after their sucesses at greenham and in germany, she came her in 92, she was in her eighties but the mind was still sharp as a new scalpel.

She aqqured some of our vernacular very quickly.

we were lunching at surfdale beach on waiheke and discusing politics and changes in europe, one comment sticks in my mind.

"society needs proffesional **** stirers, at the highest levels", "and that is what i do"

((amy **** nee kean) deceased)

[Battleneter2]

"Well geography is obviously a reason for the conflict being in Helmand, beyond that you are correct I am not sure what your getting at?"

pretty pathetic. although the gegraphics do come into it.

if you KNEW anything about this conflict and what is really going on a "THE AMERICANS WANT THE OIL ITS A RESOURCE WAR" drum beater should be able to to a lot better than that off the top of his head.

which proves my point.

YOU DONT KNOW S T ABOUT THIS CONFLICT.


"You are micro focused on a particular part of the conflict, I am talking about the struggle to maintain control in the middle east for the last 50 years!. "

GET BACK ON TOPIC STOP TRYING TO RUN AWAY OR SHIFT THE ISSUE.

Also again you just showed you complete lack of true knoweledge.

the great game is as old as the oil industry.

with out checking the dates, at least 115 years.

"Its not "Just" an American issue, Russia has been heavily involved in the Middle East backing Iran in the Past."


Er when did they (the russians) stop (Backing Iran)????


You need to do much better on the helmand question very quickly or your credability becomes 0 because you simply should know this.

Its a factor in what has been going on in the greater reigon since at least 47


lol you stick your your little bit micro knowledge, you obviously think you know something critically important to the control of the middle east over the last 5 decades.

Everyone except America is a bearded Manic to you, who need to be killed!!.

Go Back to playing Madded 2011 on your Xbox, watching American wrestling on TV and believing everything you see on CNN, you are the PERFECT American lol

[angry]

lol you stick your your little bit micro knowledge, you obviously think you know something critically important to the control of the middle east over the last 5 decades.

Everyone except America is a bearded Manic to you, who need to be killed!!.

Go Back to playing Madded 2011 on your Xbox, watching American wrestling on TV and believing everything you see on CNN, you are the PERFECT American lol

1 dont own xbox, or even want one.

2 american wrestling is theatrical crap.

3 dont watch cnn.

4 dont like yanks that much either.

clearly bn2 coudn't find out why helmand is so important in the new great game and to iran in it's attacks on america and the west in general.

his personal attacks are the reaction of a frustrated no nothing loudmouth, who can not get a simple google answer in 90 seconds about an important facet of a reigion and conflict he nows absoulutly nothing about.

bn2 score z-