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Nomad
09-08-2010, 11:28 AM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4003372/Warning-of-50b-bill-on-welfare

Not sure how well it would go down, when there might not be jobs that are suitable for some and in this economic environment.

In the past I concur with Pctek's movement and she has found it successful. I guess thou for others, you gotta be pretty extreme to physically move people to another area thou, not sure if that's legal.

I also concur that solo parents should be eased back into work too.

I know some of those who have been on the dole for years, but WINZ appear to not follow up with them. It's like they see them every 6 or 12 months when they are a long termer. They don't do anything, no school, no training, no applying for jobs, they just stay home all day and watch their budget. Not even sure what they can do, some may not think it's ethically possible to get them to clean trash and then you cannot put them into low paid jobs b/c there may be more keen people who are willing to apply for them. If you put a blanket over it (or a limit), it may create social issues, if you make them attend courses or just seminars, then you are just sunking tax payers money. In the past having been to some of their seminars there are people who just go there for a bit of social fun, one in our seminar was told to leave, b/c all she did every day was read a book in front of the presenter, I heard some others ate their roast meal in front of the presenter. Well they were open about it, maybe a sandwich not a plate, knife and fork :waughh:

I guess thou, if you want inequality, the country may do better overall, but there is that rich/poor gap which some countries don't appear to address.

pctek
09-08-2010, 12:26 PM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4003372/Warning-of-50b-bill-on-welfare


In the past I concur with Pctek's movement and she has found it successful.

Huh, don't know about that.
The problem is me having a job still leaves us $11000 a year short here.
Sooner or later, probably sooner, the remaining money will run out.

I'm thinking we should bugger off again before it does.
At least I had some PC work before, now I don't.

Nomad
09-08-2010, 12:39 PM
I didn't know about that. Thought you secured a role at a school ...

Cicero
09-08-2010, 02:57 PM
Huh, don't know about that.
The problem is me having a job still leaves us $11000 a year short here.
Sooner or later, probably sooner, the remaining money will run out.

I'm thinking we should bugger off again before it does.
At least I had some PC work before, now I don't.

Get him indoors out to work!

pctek
09-08-2010, 03:08 PM
Not going to discuss our personal situation. Remains that we can't afford to live here. I knew that. He had to find out the hard way.

george12
09-08-2010, 03:16 PM
Huh, don't know about that.
The problem is me having a job still leaves us $11000 a year short here.
Sooner or later, probably sooner, the remaining money will run out.

I'm thinking we should bugger off again before it does.
At least I had some PC work before, now I don't.

You could look into starting a PC repair business up in Auckland on top of full time work. It's not easy (as you would well know) but I believe the paper yellow pages is about to go to print (my ad in there brings me a few jobs a week), you've got online Yellow Pages, flyer distribution, etc, to put your name out there as fast as possible. If you went at it fairly solidly you'd need to spend a few thousand probably (Yellow pages ad was $1100, a big flyer drop could be $1000), but it may bring just that extra income you need, and it will grow from there.

The industry tends to charge a high rate, and people have always mentioned my low price as a selling point ($55/hr where here in Wellington the market price is $70-100). If you are willing to start at something like that, that'd be a reasonable income and might help you get going quicker than starting at the market rate. Then, people will probably not mind when you increase it later on.

If you are aggressive with the advertising I think you might be able to get something off the ground before the money runs out. Just a thought.

Cicero
09-08-2010, 03:16 PM
What has changed?,we are up to speed on most of your activities,work wise.

What wage would you expect to get in Auck,I am thinking min 40k?

I am talking average for a tech.

pctek
09-08-2010, 04:20 PM
You could look into starting a PC repair business up in Auckland on top of full time work.

No, not here. There's 56 in the West Local Directory. and more in the Western Leader. And a lot of those $25 an hour cowboys. Who continue to advertise.

I wouldn't have time as well as working here - the travel takes up too much time for one thing.

And I don't think I could make a living at it here. I couldn't there and there was less competition.
Elsewhere job + part time repairs - yes.




What wage would you expect to get in Auck,I am thinking min 40k?
I am talking average for a tech.


Well that's all I am - a tech Not a network engineer, so I can't get IT work.
Stuff I've applied for varied from $35000.

It's not enough - theirs rent and all that - I don't know anyone in Akld that doesn't have 2 household incomes who pays rent or a mortgage.

Cicero
09-08-2010, 05:34 PM
You could look into starting a PC repair business up in Auckland on top of full time work.

No, not here. There's 56 in the West Local Directory. and more in the Western Leader. And a lot of those $25 an hour cowboys. Who continue to advertise.

I wouldn't have time as well as working here - the travel takes up too much time for one thing.

And I don't think I could make a living at it here. I couldn't there and there was less competition.
Elsewhere job + part time repairs - yes.



What wage would you expect to get in Auck,I am thinking min 40k?
I am talking average for a tech.


Well that's all I am - a tech Not a network engineer, so I can't get IT work.
Stuff I've applied for varied from $35000.

It's not enough - theirs rent and all that - I don't know anyone in Akld that doesn't have 2 household incomes who pays rent or a mortgage.

And Metla tells us we have nothing to complain about.

We might have to get rid of the burden!

Nomad
10-08-2010, 09:43 AM
Bumped into this guy in the streets now and then with his wife and kids and he's still looking for a job since 2005 and couting ....

I know some people who have been on it since they received student allowance. Me thinks they don't wanna work. Never gotten a job ever other than supermarket work while at uni. Stays home all day, watch tv, has afternoon naps and plays the Xbox. Every time they have a Winz meeting they get into a big sptaz and saying how the govt treats them bad and etc etc .. and pulls out all kinds of issues, saying he wants to go to Au or USA and saying all the families he seen at the supermarket is just too much like his own. They been on a sickness benefit then back onto the std benefit when medical cost was too expensive.

Since uni they didn't really work anyway, at Xmas, they went to SJS and just to get a sign off and maintain the emergency benefit was that called?

You look at their CV and it's got nothing. Uni student, not graduated. Supermarket stacking shelves while at uni.

Winz doesn't seem to care either. Lucky if they see them in 6 months. Sometimes a 5min meeting, other times a seminar and then it's see ya later.

pctek
10-08-2010, 09:57 AM
Me thinks they don't wanna work.

Winz doesn't seem to care either.

Well I damn well do.

And yes WINZ are useless - I've applied for things via their jobsite - it vanishes into a black hole, you never hear anything from them. No wonder they have so many people on their books.

KarameaDave
10-08-2010, 10:04 AM
Perhaps they are understaffed...they could employ all the beneficiaries.
But then they wouldn't be needed! :D

Cicero
10-08-2010, 10:27 AM
Perhaps they are understaffed...they could employ all the beneficiaries.
But then they wouldn't be needed! :D

Interesting dilemma.

KenESmith
10-08-2010, 11:47 AM
I saw a great printed shirt the other day.
The message was as follows:

"Work harder - those on welfare are counting on you"

SoniKalien
10-08-2010, 11:47 AM
Saying that benefit cost *could* soar to $50 billion is like saying the sun could explode tomorrow. Well it could - it's just unlikely.

Phil Goff hit the nail on the head when he said it's not about welfare costs - it's the fact that the jobs aren't out there. 16,000 extra unemployed in the last 3 months! This is Nationals typical knee-jerk reaction to govt expenses - "It's not out fault! Blame it on labour!"

Nomad
10-08-2010, 11:52 AM
i heard there might only been 0.3% of those who received it for 10yrs was it .. but nominally there is still a group of them anyway.

to me at least it's the long termers. i know some of them who been on it since the mid 2000s. perhaps the recession was bad since then. some of them been on it since 2000. on and off when they did a certificate program for 1 or 3 months and then back on it. maybe got some part time job (still getting the benefit) and then after a while they quit.

not doing anything is like saying, there is no jobs and for those 0.3% hey don't sweat it. just sit back until 99.7% get jobs and then maybe it will be your turn.

some of them just live at home without the expenses, save up the dole and go overseas with their family. save the dole and buy games.

KenESmith
10-08-2010, 12:18 PM
When one signss on for the dole, it should be on the basis of I need a job, If I cannot find one myself, please find one for me.

If the job that is found is within the applicants physical and mental capabilities, and there is no reasonable justification for not taking the employment found, then the financial support of the taxpayer should be withdrawn.

SoniKalien
10-08-2010, 12:33 PM
There is also a certain amount of people, like myself, who are able to work but are unlikely to get employed. In my case, I'm deaf. I'm very skilled at fixing PC's, I can do website design etc. The problem is (apart from saturated markets) I'm deaf, and although legally I can't be refused a job for that reason, realistically it's important for any employee to have good communication skills. And being deaf presents extra challenges that most (if not all) employers don't really need and therefore are more likely to hire somebody else.

It's ironic that WINZ have put me on an invalids benefit. I don't class myself as an invalid, but that says to me that WINZ agrees - I don't have much chance of getting a job, as much I am actively job seeking etc... I would love to be able to spend the rest of my days fixing computers, and I can, but it's not a realistic option.

pctek
10-08-2010, 12:40 PM
When one signss on for the dole, it should be on the basis of I need a job, If I cannot find one myself, please find one for me.

.


It is meant to be like that.
In reality: I asked them about that once. They said they don't have enough jobs and the concentrate on those without much skill at finding them themselves. So, if you have a few clues they ignore you.
Great.

Poppa John
10-08-2010, 12:40 PM
There is also a certain amount of people, like myself, who are able to work but are unlikely to get employed. In my case, I'm deaf. I'm very skilled at fixing PC's, I can do website design etc. The problem is (apart from saturated markets) I'm deaf, and although legally I can't be refused a job for that reason, realistically it's important for any employee to have good communication skills. And being deaf presents extra challenges that most (if not all) employers don't really need and therefore are more likely to hire somebody else.

It's ironic that WINZ have put me on an invalids benefit. I don't class myself as an invalid, but that says to me that WINZ agrees - I don't have much chance of getting a job, as much I am actively job seeking etc... I would love to be able to spend the rest of my days fixing computers, and I can, but it's not a realistic option.

From Porirua? PJ

SoniKalien
10-08-2010, 12:50 PM
From Porirua? PJ

Hi PJ, you have a good memory :) It's been a while, and a lot has changed since then... and Im not in Porirua any more.

/thread hijack :p

BBCmicro
10-08-2010, 12:56 PM
It's a little-known secret, but economic theory doesn't require that people be employed.

So long as supply meets demand, the economy is in balance and that's all the economists want.

('Demand' means the wishes of people with money. If you don't have money, your 'demands' are not counted.)

How many people are employed at the balance point? Could be everybody but it could be just one person - a person with a lot of money.

I repeat - there's nothing in economic theory that says people need to be employed

Nomad
10-08-2010, 02:03 PM
from the ones we know, the perception of people from overseas is that NZ is more laid back.

work life is less demanding and for recreational life.

the ones who migrated here, said NZ has a better work life balance, if you lose your job there is the benefit, education may be cheaper for citizens and permanent residents, there is also the student allowance. they also applied for the elderly to come to NZ b/c NZ has the pension. not saying NZ is the only ones, but people tend to factor these things early on, for eg., those who have migrated to canada wants to get others there too incase they get too old and not be eligible.

those who school in NZ say that they prefer to go to England or the US or even Australia but NZ is understood to be safer, friendlier and cheaper, the immigration process is maybe quicker.

one of the view is that you may not make so much money in NZ but even if you don't have a job you won't starve in NZ. to remain in contact some of they just go overseas annually or 2x a year.

to me, it is not surprising with the welfare issue. most people in the world will not choose NZ if they had the option, NZ's attraction has been family life, and welfare. NZ isn't a fast pace of life where you can accelerate your career and head offshore using your NZ credentials. It's not a 24hr city. They are on the bottom of the globe.

Gobe1
10-08-2010, 02:27 PM
Saying that benefit cost *could* soar to $50 billion is like saying the sun could explode tomorrow. Well it could - it's just unlikely.

Phil Goff hit the nail on the head when he said it's not about welfare costs - it's the fact that the jobs aren't out there. 16,000 extra unemployed in the last 3 months! This is Nationals typical knee-jerk reaction to govt expenses - "It's not out fault! Blame it on labour!"

You forgot to add the "and lets tax the people more to pay for it"

KarameaDave
10-08-2010, 02:46 PM
So, the Tories are beneficiary bashing again.
Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose :groan:

roddy_boy
10-08-2010, 03:00 PM
Damn those blungers.

KarameaDave
10-08-2010, 03:03 PM
And their bloody plungers.

somebody
10-08-2010, 07:56 PM
I don't think there's anyone here who would want to deny assistance to people who have lost their jobs due to the recession, have a genuine disability, solo parents trying to raise young kids because their deadbeat (ex) partners refuse to pay child support, or any one of a raft of genuine reasons for which the welfare system was designed for. It was never set up to be a lifestyle choice where you have the option not to work because you're too difficult for WINZ to deal with. There are generations of families who have never worked a day in their life, and expect the taxpayer to support them - taxpayers including people who work 50+hr weeks on the minimum wage, contribute to the economy and try to support their families the best they can. To those who claim that the majority of beneficiaries are genuine, hard working people who want to go out and get a job, look carefully at the statistics. 60000 people who have spent the last 10 years on a benefit, and 100000 who have spent 9/10 years on welfare is a huge proportion of our population. Like it or not, Maori are well over-represented in this category - kids who grow up with parents who never worked, who themselves grow up and live off the dole. This is one example where iwi should be stepping in and using the money they get from treaty settlements to create jobs for "their people" - Ngai Tahu has made a start via Ngai Tahu Fisheries and similar ventures create employment for their people and the wider community.

If you could halve that $6.5b a year spend on welfare payments, you could use that money to improve healthcare, education, and other for other important and rewarding efforts. Throwing money down the welfare black hole does nothing but help politicians maintain a base of voters who are dependent on them for survival. You can't close the wage gap with Australia when you keep taxing hard working NZers and innovative NZ companies to fund the lifestyles of those who think it's their right not to work.

dvm
10-08-2010, 08:48 PM
There must be a lot of opportunities for clay blungers these days.

Why don't more of the unemployed exercise the options to become more qualified blungers of clay?

Oh well, never mind.

gary67
10-08-2010, 09:24 PM
I don't think there's anyone here who would want to deny assistance to people who have lost their jobs due to the recession, have a genuine disability, solo parents trying to raise young kids because their deadbeat (ex) partners refuse to pay child support, or any one of a raft of genuine reasons for which the welfare system was designed for. It was never set up to be a lifestyle choice where you have the option not to work because you're too difficult for WINZ to deal with. There are generations of families who have never worked a day in their life, and expect the taxpayer to support them - taxpayers including people who work 50+hr weeks on the minimum wage, contribute to the economy and try to support their families the best they can. To those who claim that the majority of beneficiaries are genuine, hard working people who want to go out and get a job, look carefully at the statistics. 60000 people who have spent the last 10 years on a benefit, and 100000 who have spent 9/10 years on welfare is a huge proportion of our population. Like it or not, Maori are well over-represented in this category - kids who grow up with parents who never worked, who themselves grow up and live off the dole. This is one example where iwi should be stepping in and using the money they get from treaty settlements to create jobs for "their people" - Ngai Tahu has made a start via Ngai Tahu Fisheries and similar ventures create employment for their people and the wider community.

If you could halve that $6.5b a year spend on welfare payments, you could use that money to improve healthcare, education, and other for other important and rewarding efforts. Throwing money down the welfare black hole does nothing but help politicians maintain a base of voters who are dependent on them for survival. You can't close the wage gap with Australia when you keep taxing hard working NZers and innovative NZ companies to fund the lifestyles of those who think it's their right not to work.

Very well put forward I agree with what you say

pctek
11-08-2010, 08:46 AM
I don't think there's anyone here who would want to deny assistance to people who have a genuine reason

60000 people who have spent the last 10 years on a benefit, and 100000 who have spent 9/10 years on welfare is a huge proportion of our population.
.

Yes so instead of picking on them as a whole - WINZ staff should be making a point of doing something about these people.

Greg
11-08-2010, 09:33 AM
http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/4003372/Warning-of-50b-bill-on-welfare

Not sure how well it would go down, when there might not be jobs that are suitable for some and in this economic environment.

In the past I concur with Pctek's movement and she has found it successful. I guess thou for others, you gotta be pretty extreme to physically move people to another area thou, not sure if that's legal.

I also concur that solo parents should be eased back into work too.

I know some of those who have been on the dole for years, but WINZ appear to not follow up with them. It's like they see them every 6 or 12 months when they are a long termer. They don't do anything, no school, no training, no applying for jobs, they just stay home all day and watch their budget. Not even sure what they can do, some may not think it's ethically possible to get them to clean trash and then you cannot put them into low paid jobs b/c there may be more keen people who are willing to apply for them. If you put a blanket over it (or a limit), it may create social issues, if you make them attend courses or just seminars, then you are just sunking tax payers money. In the past having been to some of their seminars there are people who just go there for a bit of social fun, one in our seminar was told to leave, b/c all she did every day was read a book in front of the presenter, I heard some others ate their roast meal in front of the presenter. Well they were open about it, maybe a sandwich not a plate, knife and fork :waughh:

I guess thou, if you want inequality, the country may do better overall, but there is that rich/poor gap which some countries don't appear to address.
Jeez - I haven't read the forums here for a couple days, and I get rewarded with this kinda shzza!! ***

KarameaDave
11-08-2010, 12:18 PM
A perhaps more balanced view.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10665066

pctek
11-08-2010, 12:35 PM
But no matter how many sticks and carrots they come up with, it's all hopelessly theoretical until the Government, or the economy, comes up with some new jobs.

Last month, 63,059 received the dole. Just two years before, that figure was just 17,710.




Just a month ago, Prime Minister John Key declared his local pizza delivery man was a supporter of the law allowing workers to be hired on a 90-day trial.

It then emerged that pizza man Sanjay Kumar has a master's degree in zoology and a business diploma, but the only job he could get was as a self-employed fast-food deliverer.

qazwsxokmijn
11-08-2010, 01:09 PM
It then emerged that pizza man Sanjay Kumar has a master's degree in zoology and a business diploma, but the only job he could get was as a self-employed fast-food deliverer.
Yeah, that stuff infuriated me so much man. Bloody idiots running the country, there must be some way to employ that man. I don't know, maybe put him and his family on some financial assistance for a year or two while he goes on some course to prove his knowledge.

I am certain if he worked in his proper field in NZ he would pay us back his 1-2 year financial assistance by many folds over the course of his time working here.

KarameaDave
11-08-2010, 02:28 PM
That's right, and I hate to think of the number
of overseas qualified doctors, engineers and others,
stuck driving taxis in this country...it's such a waste
of their knowledge and potential.