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View Full Version : Cost of "Sensible Sentencing"



Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 09:14 AM
Apparently Corrections is set to become the biggest Government employer in New Zealand.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10655915

Battleneter2
02-07-2010, 09:41 AM
Well in theory the country will save in other areas, police and Courts not having to process hardened repeat offenders, or at least so often.

Metla
02-07-2010, 09:44 AM
They should slash conditions for the prisoners, That would save billions.

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 09:54 AM
Well in theory the country will save in other areas, police and Courts not having to process hardened repeat offenders, or at least so often.

Even the Minister of Police (and Corrections) thinks that is only about fifty people, so the total saving there will be diddly squat as the prison muster by is hardly going up by that much due to any focus on hardened repeat offenders.

And as there is no money left for rehabilitation according to the article, so the chances of reoffending will be higher not lower.

The money to pay for all this (going by the California example) will be money diverted from places like Education and so the downward spiral gets reinforced.

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 09:55 AM
They should slash conditions for the prisoners, That would save billions.

Really - what do you suggest?

PinoyKiw
02-07-2010, 10:04 AM
Really - what do you suggest?

Have a look in a Thai jail.......or a look in a Japanese one. Then run our's like they do, no creature comforts, etc.

prefect
02-07-2010, 10:05 AM
Its all good, while these scum crooks are in jail and not committing crimes we all win.
They will need to prune back on diet ie to minimum and basic foods no coffee and tea.
Heating could be pegged back. Run prisons like in Singapore where they run at profit they have factories in prison and they do the laundry for hospitals.
Also give employ less guards but arm them with short barrel 12 gauge semi auto shotguns loaded with zero zero shot. Any riots would be dealt usa style.
If certain people in our population just like the usa do most of the offending all we can do is lock them up.

Digby
02-07-2010, 10:26 AM
Yes cut back,

No tv, no dvs's, no heating - bring you own blankets, basic food.
One Mary Poppins movie a week.
Free books, enourage people to go in a teach them to read and write.

Put tv shows on of life in prison, to put others off doing crimes.

Each year put sentences up by one year, until people learn to stop committing crime.

I don't mind how much it costs to keep those crims off our streets and out of my house.

Metla
02-07-2010, 11:16 AM
Really - what do you suggest?

An empty paddock surrounded by a mine field.

Fill empty paddock with scum.

qazwsxokmijn
02-07-2010, 11:30 AM
An empty paddock surrounded by a mine field.

Fill empty paddock with scum.
I'd prefer that but Digby's suggestion would be the only thing closest to being implemented.

Bozo
02-07-2010, 11:52 AM
An empty paddock surrounded by a mine field.

Fill empty paddock with scum.

Love it. :lol:

On a slightly more serious note though, a concrete cell with a bed + 1 blanket. Nothing more. Twice a day they get some bread and water - never anything more. And this bread can be the day old stuff from all the bakeries around the place.

No TV, no pleasurable things of any sort. Prison is supposed to be a place where you go to be punished for your crimes against society - not taken good care of.

None of these 'rehab' centers - just lock them up, if they repeat offend - lock them up again - permanently.

Agree with Prefect - arm the gaurds with shotguns - start misbehaving - now you are dead and no more trouble for anyone - goodbye scum.

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 12:18 PM
An empty paddock surrounded by a mine field.

Fill empty paddock with scum.

Well that is very practical, and has zero percent chance of happening.

Metla
02-07-2010, 12:22 PM
Well that is very practical, and has zero percent chance of happening.

It will if I get elected President.:thumbs:

That and many more awesome changes.

I'll hire you to hand deliver food packages to them.

Sweep
02-07-2010, 12:26 PM
I'd put them on an Island with a supply of seeds then come back and pick up any survivors after 20 years.

Now if I could just remember where I put them.......

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 12:28 PM
Yes cut back,

No tv, no dvs's, no heating - bring you own blankets, basic food.
One Mary Poppins movie a week.
Free books, enourage people to go in a teach them to read and write.

Put tv shows on of life in prison, to put others off doing crimes.

Each year put sentences up by one year, until people learn to stop committing crime.

I don't mind how much it costs to keep those crims off our streets and out of my house.

Well the TV's in prisons are there as an inmate management tool, inmates that watch TV don't cause as many issue for guards, and more guards cost more money.

Having been to many of the prisons here (in a working capacity), they're hardly the motels you guys make them out to be. Many inmates sit outside in a yard all day with nothing to do (and they want to work but work gangs cost money as well) so the day to day conditions are pretty much as you describe already (except for the Mary Poppins film).

And if you should ever end up in prison Metla, you'd be the first one complaining about unfair conditions from the Government.

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 12:29 PM
I'd put them on an Island with a supply of seeds then come back and pick up any survivors after 20 years.

Now if I could just remember where I put them.......

They tried that - it is called Australia.

Sweep
02-07-2010, 12:31 PM
Well the TV's in prisons are there as an inmate management tool, inmates that watch TV don't cause as many issue for guards, and more guards cost more money.

Having been to many of the prisons here (in a working capacity), they're hardly the motels you guys make them out to be. Many inmates sit outside in a yard all day with nothing to do (and they want to work but work gangs cost money as well) so the day to day conditions are pretty much as you describe already (except for the Mary Poppins film).

And if you should ever end up in prison Metla, you'd be the first one complaining about unfair conditions from the Government.

Strange as it may seem lots of people don't want to go to prison so therefore do their best to stay out of same. If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

johcar
02-07-2010, 12:41 PM
They should slash the prisoners, That would save billions.

Fixed that for you, Metla (machetes, that is)...

Metla
02-07-2010, 12:42 PM
And if you should ever end up in prison Metla, you'd be the first one complaining about unfair conditions from the Government.

You have no idea about me.

If I did end up in prison I would be well aware of whose fault it would be, and who to blame for my predicament and surroundings. Nor would I expect any sort of fair conditions for my efforts.

You seem to believe that other peoples views are based on ignorance, and if they had your "enlightenment" they would look at things the same way you do. That I believe is just a mark of arrogance, perhaps delusion.

Bozo
02-07-2010, 12:52 PM
And if you should ever end up in prison Metla, you'd be the first one complaining about unfair conditions from the Government.

Then its quite simple isn't it?

Don't be a retard, don't commit crime - and you will never end up in prison.

People who fail to see this as an easy way to stay out of prison deserve the worst.

prefect
02-07-2010, 01:03 PM
I'd put them on an Island with a supply of seeds then come back and pick up any survivors after 20 years.

Now if I could just remember where I put them.......

Then spray island with 245T, not agent orange I am not a nasty bastard.

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 01:21 PM
You seem to believe that other peoples views are based on ignorance, and if they had your "enlightenment" they would look at things the same way you do. That I believe is just a mark of arrogance, perhaps delusion.

Oh sorry oh enlightened one - a minefield as a prison idea is not based on ignorance after all, you mean you researched that?

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 01:24 PM
Strange as it may seem lots of people don't want to go to prison so therefore do their best to stay out of same. If you can't do the time don't do the crime.

Prisons have a place and no one would argue against that, but we have one of the highest imprisonment rates in the western world and yet one of the safest countries, so what are we locking so many people up for?

prefect
02-07-2010, 01:45 PM
We are generally safe because we keep a lot of people locked up.
If you dont commit a crime you dont do the time, quite a simple concept isnt it 12v?
Look at the people who do the crimes notice any similarity with usa?
Then we will have around the same incarceration rate as the usa its really not rocket science.
Most of the people are locked up for violence offences and thats where the offenders need to be to cool off.
Wont be a picnic for them soon with no baccy christ I almost feel sorry for them noting the effect running out of baccy at a mining camp in Aussie when I worked there.

KenESmith
02-07-2010, 02:34 PM
Cut costs by topping the murderers and serial offenders - They are just a waste of space and effort trying to rehabilitate them.
How's that for a cost containment idea?

Metla
02-07-2010, 04:19 PM
Oh sorry oh enlightened one - a minefield as a prison idea is not based on ignorance after all, you mean you researched that?

I have enough life experience to know I don't give a damn about the welfare of criminal filth.

And having seen inside a prison or two I strongly disagree with the obscene amount of money spent on them, I don't give a damn if they are bored or have a chip on their shoulder, or might get angry about where they put themselves,In order for them to get there they had to ruin many many peoples lives.

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 05:03 PM
I have enough life experience to know I don't give a damn about the welfare of criminal filth.

And having seen inside a prison or two I strongly disagree with the obscene amount of money spent on them, I don't give a damn if they are bored or have a chip on their shoulder, or might get angry about where they put themselves,In order for them to get there they had to ruin many many peoples lives.

Well at least we agree about that the money spent on them is excessive.

johcar
02-07-2010, 05:10 PM
Well at least we agree about that the money spent on them is excessive.

Did I read somewhere that Portugal (?) just provides the prison guards and the cell and the family of the prisoner have to provide all the necessities of life for the prisoner??

Seems that would put pressure on the criminals to stop offending.... And substantially lowers the $$ the poor old taxpayer has to provide for the upkeep of the scum who insist on being anti-social.

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 05:20 PM
We are generally safe because we keep a lot of people locked up.
If you dont commit a crime you dont do the time, quite a simple concept isnt it 12v?
Look at the people who do the crimes notice any similarity with usa?
Then we will have around the same incarceration rate as the usa its really not rocket science.
Most of the people are locked up for violence offences and thats where the offenders need to be to cool off.
Wont be a picnic for them soon with no baccy christ I almost feel sorry for them noting the effect running out of baccy at a mining camp in Aussie when I worked there.

Dishonesty related offences seem to be the majority of prison inmates as far as I can see from the Corrections web site, plus a large number of driving related offences. The first three strike case was actually in for groping.

Assaults seem to be on the rise for prison numbers, possibly the effects of the "sensible sentencing" that has been going on rather than an increase in violent crime.

Heard a cop on the radio before, reckon fifty percent of the population would never offend, forty percent would in certain circumstances, and ten percent are criminally inclined. I reckon if you made that 80/15/5 you'd be closer to it.

I've got no issues with people going to prison, but before you release them you should at least have tried to sort them out. I suspect if we ever had a Press F1 Task Force on crime, you'd find we actually agree on more than we disagree, it just doesn't seem that way always.

Cicero
02-07-2010, 05:51 PM
Mate who lives in Thailand say he is very careful not to brake the law,as he says not keen on living on a concrete floor and eating fish heads for brecky.

mikebartnz
02-07-2010, 08:05 PM
Prisons have a place and no one would argue against that, but we have one of the highest imprisonment rates in the western world and yet one of the safest countries, so what are we locking so many people up for?
Has has been stated in another thread we are not the safest country with the murder rate twice what it is in Aussie and four times what it is in Japan and Britain.

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 08:12 PM
Has has been stated in another thread we are not the safest country with the murder rate twice what it is in Aussie and four times what it is in Japan and Britain.

But those figurse appear to be wrong, and in any event they are all relatively safe countries.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Australia and Britain have higher murder rates than New Zealand.

Sweep
02-07-2010, 08:20 PM
But those figurse appear to be wrong, and in any event they are all relatively safe countries.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Australia and Britain have higher murder rates than New Zealand.

If I click your link I note the source data covers 1998 - 2000.

So just why should I believe the same is true today?

Twelvevolts
02-07-2010, 10:21 PM
You're right, we could expect that sensible sentencing has made things worse, but I guess it will provide a baseline for the good old days before sensible sentencing came along.

mikebartnz
02-07-2010, 10:25 PM
But those figurse appear to be wrong, and in any event they are all relatively safe countries.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita

Australia and Britain have higher murder rates than New Zealand.
Having looked at quite a few sites the figures are all over the place depending on the year.
One interesting thing when Canada dropped capital punishment the murder rate dropped but in the states the murder rate has dropped when there have been more executions.
You would think that NZ having a fairly sparse population would have a very low murder rate

prefect
03-07-2010, 08:46 AM
If we didnt have the Sensible Sentencing Trust our murder rate might be as high as South Africa.

Twelvevolts
03-07-2010, 07:03 PM
If we didnt have the Sensible Sentencing Trust our murder rate might be as high as South Africa.

Gee - when we didn't have the SST it wasn't so that seems doubtful. Funny you keep say crime is getting worse but that has been since the SST came into being.

Twelvevolts
04-07-2010, 03:10 AM
Having looked at quite a few sites the figures are all over the place depending on the year.
One interesting thing when Canada dropped capital punishment the murder rate dropped but in the states the murder rate has dropped when there have been more executions.
You would think that NZ having a fairly sparse population would have a very low murder rate

Perhaps the pertinent point is that States with no death penalty have a lower murder rate than those with it.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates

This of course could be that States with high murder rates choose the death penalty, but even Garth McVicar accepts the death penalty isn't a deterrent and with the findings coming out of the Innocence Project (http://www.innocenceproject.org/) suggest that innocent people get convicted.

Innocence Project web site suggests some reforms to the Criminal Justice system that would appear to be worthy of consideration.

Battleneter2
04-07-2010, 12:00 PM
Perhaps the pertinent point is that States with no death penalty have a lower murder rate than those with it.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/deterrence-states-without-death-penalty-have-had-consistently-lower-murder-rates


That just tells me the states with a death penalty needs to kill em faster!

Cicero
04-07-2010, 12:23 PM
That just tells me the states with a death penalty needs to kill em faster!

Why don't they copy meat works system,we have lots of chaps out of work here,I am sure they would like to set up a chain for them?!

Twelvevolts
05-07-2010, 01:03 PM
And it looks like all this get tough sentencing is having an impact on the number of convictions - they've gone up.


http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/3885294/Criminal-convictions-rise

prefect
05-07-2010, 03:29 PM
They would have gone up higher if there was no SST

Twelvevolts
05-07-2010, 05:18 PM
They would have gone up higher if there was no SST

I see how this works. If crime goes down or up a bit, you claim credit. If it goes up a lot you call for tougher sentences until you can claim credit again.

R2x1
05-07-2010, 07:03 PM
Just like advertising and the road toll. Any perceived drop, and the drop is claimed as proof of success, so more advertising must be shown for more lives saved and injuries avoided.
If the toll rises, then obviously the campaign must be stepped up before the population is decimated and the hospital queues get even longer.

Oh, the humanity! Only the combined powers of the advertising messiahs can save us all.

The law is a peculiar beast.

Greven
05-07-2010, 09:15 PM
Invercargill must be behind the times - they make prisoners provide their own woollen hats gloves & scarves to keep warm. None of that fancy underfloor heating they have up north.

I don't know if it works, but I sure as hell would be grateful to get home detention after a freezing winter behind bars. If there is a chance of rehabilitation then home detention has got to be better than locking them up - they get to go to work (at Macdonalds if they can't do anything else), pay their taxes, pay for their own rent & food but can't leave the house or have any visitors without permission.

Twelvevolts
06-07-2010, 04:21 PM
Invercargill must be behind the times - they make prisoners provide their own woollen hats gloves & scarves to keep warm. None of that fancy underfloor heating they have up north.

I don't know if it works, but I sure as hell would be grateful to get home detention after a freezing winter behind bars. If there is a chance of rehabilitation then home detention has got to be better than locking them up - they get to go to work (at Macdonalds if they can't do anything else), pay their taxes, pay for their own rent & food but can't leave the house or have any visitors without permission.

Home Detention is cheaper, that has to be a plus for it.

Cicero
06-07-2010, 04:32 PM
Home Detention is cheaper, that has to be a plus for it.

Quite right and they should be provided with a jacuzzi as well.

R2x1
06-07-2010, 05:44 PM
Invercargill must be behind the times - they make prisoners provide their own woollen hats gloves & scarves to keep warm. . . .
Why can't they work harder if they're cold? Floggings are also very warming for both parties. ;)

mikebartnz
06-07-2010, 07:36 PM
Why can't they work harder if they're cold? Floggings are also very warming for both parties. ;)
Talking about floggings.

An Australian, a Kiwi and a South African were all in Saudi Arabia, sharing a smuggled carton of beer. All of a sudden Saudi police rushed in and arrested them. The mere possession of alcohol is a severe offence in Saudi Arabia, so for the terrible crime of actually being caught consuming the beer, they were sentenced to death! However, after many months and with the help of very good lawyers, they were able to successfully appeal their sentence down to life imprisonment.
By a stroke of luck, it was a Saudi national holiday on the day their trial finished, and the extremely benevolent Sheikh decided they could be released after receiving just 20 lashes each of the whip. As they were preparing for their punishment, the Sheikh suddenly said: "It's my first wife's birthday today, and she has asked me to allow each of you one wish before your whipping."
The South African was first in line , so he thought about this for a while and then said: "Please tie a pillow to my back." This was done, but the pillow only lasted 10 lashes before the whip went through. The South African had to be carried away bleeding and crying with pain when the punishment was done.
The Aussie was next up, and after watching the scene, said: "Please fix two pillows on my back." But even two pillows could only take 15 lashes before the whip went through again.
The Kiwi was the last one up, but before the Kiwi could say anything, the Sheikh turned to him and said: "You are from a most beautiful country, your Rugby team is the best in the world, and your women are very sexy. For this, you may have two wishes!".
"Nice one Mate, your Most Royal and Merciful Highness", the Kiwi replies. In recognition of your kindness, my first wish is that you give me not 20, but 100 lashes."
"Not only are you an honourable, handsome and powerful man, you are also very brave" the Sheikh says with an admiring look on his face. "If 100 lashes is what you desire, then so be it. And your second wish? What is it to be?" the Sheikh asks.
"Please tie the Aussie to my back".