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Twelvevolts
25-12-2009, 06:21 PM
Several of the posters on here can say what they want about their solution to crime which amounts to racist hysteria by and large. These people will of course spout off long and hard about they are defending the country against racists, fighting against liberals (oh please spare me the BS) whilst suggesting quite openly that people should be hanged or stabbed for spraying graffiti and other minor offences (providing they fit a specific racial profile).

They can spout the most racist bile out and the moderators never close them down or challenge them.

As soon as anyone else challenges them, the thread gets closed down.

What is it about this forum that allows three or four racist bigots to spout any old load of bollocks they want, but prevents anyone challenging them?

CliveM
25-12-2009, 07:00 PM
Try looking in the mirror

B.M.
25-12-2009, 07:01 PM
:confused:Never noticed anything myself but maybe the truth is a defence? :confused:

allblack
25-12-2009, 07:02 PM
It's not racism if it's demographically correct.

prefect
25-12-2009, 07:04 PM
Several of the posters on here can say what they want about their solution to crime which amounts to racist hysteria by and large. These people will of course spout off long and hard about they are defending the country against racists, fighting against liberals (oh please spare me the BS) whilst suggesting quite openly that people should be hanged or stabbed for spraying graffiti and other minor offences (providing they fit a specific racial profile).

They can spout the most racist bile out and the moderators never close them down or challenge them.

As soon as anyone else challenges them, the thread gets closed down.

What is it about this forum that allows three or four racist bigots to spout any old load of bollocks they want, but prevents anyone challenging them?

Its not worth getting your tits in a tangle.

Terry Porritt
25-12-2009, 07:09 PM
Threads get closed when vitriolic comments and attacks are directed between PF1 members, not necessarily when the attacks are aimed at 3rd parties outside of PF1.

The moderators allow a wide range of free speech, provided the house rules are followed.

Cicero
25-12-2009, 08:08 PM
Its not worth getting your tits in a tangle.

I think 12V was talking about you and Terr and other racists.

Terry Porritt
25-12-2009, 08:57 PM
I think 12V was talking about you and Terr and other racists.

I believe in calling a spade a spade....:rolleyes:

johcar
25-12-2009, 08:58 PM
It's not racism if it's demographically correct.

x1

The facts stand.

Twelvevolts
25-12-2009, 09:43 PM
Try looking in the mirror

I had a look and gee I look good.

Twelvevolts
25-12-2009, 09:48 PM
Its not worth getting your tits in a tangle.

Sitting back drinking a pinot gris and relaxing, nothing tangled here.

Metla
25-12-2009, 10:17 PM
Several of the posters on here can say what they want about ,,,,,blah blah blah

Seriously, that's the crap running through your head on Christmas day?

Twelvevolts
25-12-2009, 10:27 PM
Seriously, that's the crap running through your head on Christmas day?

Just wanted to cheer you up . . .

Metla
25-12-2009, 10:41 PM
o....k....

Twelvevolts
25-12-2009, 10:43 PM
But your thread is better . . .

beeswax34
25-12-2009, 11:53 PM
any specific examples?

rob_on_guitar
26-12-2009, 07:15 AM
I guess if you like murdering drug pushing rapists who have specific skin color that constantly get light sentences, if any, you may think that people here are racists or a lynch mob or something. But only if you think it.
Maybe you read too much into things?
Just because a certain ethnic group or two keep showing up in the paper/news/stats for crimes, doesn't make everyone here a racist because they comment on it.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, if we all thought the same than this would be one frikin boring world!

prefect
26-12-2009, 09:28 AM
I hope Garth McVicar of the Sensible Sentencing Trust gets a knighthood.
How do you nominate people for a knighthood? Can we start an online petition?
If it wasn't for him, crooks would still be getting slap with a wet bus ticket sentences for violent crimes.
He has stood up to liberal spineless judges who have no idea what real crime is because nothing happens to them in the rich areas of our cities where they live they are totally isolated.
Judges now have to think what the public think when sentencing there have been a few good sentences lately but we still have idiot judges which need firing by minister of justice.
We all know who are the perpetrators of most of the violent crime in NZ but are not allowed to mention it because we are called racist. We are no different from the USA/UK in this respect.

Twelvevolts
26-12-2009, 10:09 AM
I guess if you like murdering drug pushing rapists who have specific skin color that constantly get light sentences, if any, you may think that people here are racists or a lynch mob or something. But only if you think it.
Maybe you read too much into things?
Just because a certain ethnic group or two keep showing up in the paper/news/stats for crimes, doesn't make everyone here a racist because they comment on it.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, if we all thought the same than this would be one frikin boring world!

Personally I'm for a free world including free speech, I think we should guard our freedoms or we forget the lessons of recent history.

Peterj116
26-12-2009, 10:10 AM
When FACTS are "incovenient" or embarrassing, they're shouted down with cries of racism.

Relative to their numbers in the general population, Māori are over-represented at every stage of the criminal justice process. Though forming just 12.5% of the general population aged 15 and over 1, 42% of all criminal apprehensions involve a person identifying as Māori, as do 50% of all persons in prison. For Māori women, the picture is even more acute: they comprise around 60% of the female prison population.

That's not an "opinion".

http://www.corrections.govt.nz/news-and-publications/over-representation-of-maori-in-the-criminal-justice-system/1.0-introduction/1.html

rob_on_guitar
26-12-2009, 10:13 AM
yes, i agree. Alot of what happens today though contradicts that though.

Twelvevolts
26-12-2009, 10:22 AM
I hope Garth McVicar of the Sensible Sentencing Trust gets a knighthood.
How do you nominate people for a knighthood? Can we start an online petition?
If it wasn't for him, crooks would still be getting slap with a wet bus ticket sentences for violent crimes.
He has stood up to liberal spineless judges who have no idea what real crime is because nothing happens to them in the rich areas of our cities where they live they are totally isolated.
Judges now have to think what the public think when sentencing there have been a few good sentences lately but we still have idiot judges which need firing by minister of justice.
We all know who are the perpetrators of most of the violent crime in NZ but are not allowed to mention it because we are called racist. We are no different from the USA/UK in this respect.

Gee I've noticed how well it is all working with these tougher sentences, McMinto has got crime on the run.

Twelvevolts
26-12-2009, 10:31 AM
Personally I don't have any issue with people pointing out the race of an offender or group of offenders although I equally don't see what relevence it has to the crime or the victim. However, I'm talking about the people on here who make statements about exterminating a whole race.

Making dopey statements like "if you like murdering drug pushing rapists who have specific skin color" might not be in that category, however I'm guessing someone who would write that views the world in terms of skin colour, whereas for my part I wouldn't like these murdering drug pushing rapists whatever colour they were.

Metla
26-12-2009, 10:31 AM
Gee I've noticed how well it is all working with these tougher sentences, McMinto has got crime on the run.

We have two generations of lawlessness created by the systems you support to counter act, It will take two generations and suitable polices to address the situation that has been created.

More power to parents.
More power to the community.
More power to the police
More power to the schools.
More power to the victims
More power to the courts.

Less power for the criminal.

rob_on_guitar
26-12-2009, 10:46 AM
Making dopey statements like "if you like murdering drug pushing rapists who have specific skin color" might not be in that category, however I'm guessing someone who would write that views the world in terms of skin colour, whereas for my part I wouldn't like these murdering drug pushing rapists whatever colour they were.

It isn't dopey, just you read it that way when you are the one saying people here are creating racist hysteria, then you are only picking out little bits and pieces and taking them out of context. Doing that alone is bound to start yet another feeble interwebs argument which lets face it, is pathetic, but happens

If you look hard enough things will be racist, un-pc or somehow offensive.
You can say your piece but can't expect everyone to agree.

But like you I dont really care what people say

Cicero
26-12-2009, 10:50 AM
It isn't dopey, just you read it that way when you are the one saying people here are creating racist hysteria, then you are only picking out little bits and pieces and taking them out of context. Doing that alone is bound to start yet another feeble interwebs argument which lets face it, is pathetic, but happens

If you look hard enough things will be racist, un-pc or somehow offensive.
You can say your piece but can't expect everyone to agree.

But like you I dont really care what people say

And your point is?

rob_on_guitar
26-12-2009, 11:09 AM
just got sick of my own voice so i stopped :lol:

Twelvevolts
26-12-2009, 08:02 PM
We have two generations of lawlessness created by the systems you support to counter act, It will take two generations and suitable polices to address the situation that has been created.

More power to parents.
More power to the community.
More power to the police
More power to the schools.
More power to the victims
More power to the courts.

Less power for the criminal.

More power indeed, but very convenient that your policies will take two generations to work so we can't test them (other than to see the failure of them too date). But we have the SST confirmation already that a death penalty doesn't work and therefore deterrence doesn't work, and that sentencing depends on who you are and not what you did.

New Zealand is a fairly safe country and although the SST does a fair job of creating a fear of crime, most people aren't at a lot of risk of crime although tragically as in every country, we have cases of nutters who aren't going to respect the law whatever the sentence is, the problem being there are likely to be more of them if you follow SST policies.

Metla
26-12-2009, 08:27 PM
If the deterrent isn't working no matter the severity then the next best option is to remove them from the community for as long as possible, whats so hard to understand about that?

You think the communities should be made to suffer the actions of the criminals?, or that the criminals should suffer for their actions?

Straight up, which group in your opinion deserve to suffer?

qazwsxokmijn
26-12-2009, 09:24 PM
If the deterrent isn't working no matter the severity then the next best option is to remove them from the community for as long as possible, whats so hard to understand about that?

You think the communities should be made to suffer the actions of the criminals?, or that the criminals should suffer for their actions?

Straight up, which group in your opinion deserve to suffer?
Indeed. Death penalty removes the evil from society and therefore society is also not penalised financially in the long run.

Besides, who really wants to have the knowledge that some callous murderer and/or rapist is living off your own wallet? Well, yours, your friends', family's relatives', neighbours'.....I'd rather have the knowledge that my money is used to pay for bullets for such criminals.

rob_on_guitar
26-12-2009, 09:27 PM
New Zealand is a fairly safe country and although the SST does a fair job of creating a fear of crime, most people aren't at a lot of risk of crime although tragically as in every country, we have cases of nutters who aren't going to respect the law whatever the sentence is, the problem being there are likely to be more of them if you follow SST policies.

You must agree though, there are still thousands of crimes being committed in a 'safe' country like nz, considering the low population its still crap

R2x1
26-12-2009, 09:38 PM
**** the parents of every multiple offender. (Start while they are at kindergarten.) Use bricks.

Things should settle quite quickly.

Twelvevolts
26-12-2009, 10:42 PM
You must agree though, there are still thousands of crimes being committed in a 'safe' country like nz, considering the low population its still crap

Yep and we have one of the best Justice systems in the world as well, contrary to what the SST would have you believe. I hear all the time from people returning from overseas how much worse the crime was, we're really fortunate that we have low crimes rates and our murder rate is very low compared to the USA, but admittedly higher than many of the European countries who have a more "liberal" approach to crime.

But my door isn't locked and it is unlikely some gang is going to come over tonight and break in. If they do it will be lead story on national news and we'll have days of postings about crime and rantings from the SST. If it happened overseas in some countries, it would be pretty much what happened every night and hardly newsworthy.

Metla
26-12-2009, 10:46 PM
I agree that the parents should be tried right alongside the kids.

As it is NZ has massive resources aimed at young persons and the crimes they commit, all of which are a series of trying to deal with them before they get classified as adults and are given adult penalties.

When they reach this age they get a clean slate, then as they continue offending they are once again bombarded with methods to get them to behave without locking them up.

Then then have to either continually break lots of small laws or a great big fat one in order to get locked up, and still people complain that society is in the wrong.

Yeah, because we pay for everything, Own stuff they can steal, and supply grand parents for them to rob, beat ,rape and kill.

**** em, A bullet in the head and a watery grave is what they deserve.

Metla
26-12-2009, 10:47 PM
Yep and we have one of the best Justice systems in the world as well, contrary to what the SST would have you believe. I hear all the time from people returning from overseas how much worse the crime was, we're really fortunate that we have low crimes rates and our murder rate is very low compared to the USA, but admittedly higher than many of the European countries who have a more "liberal" approach to crime.

But my door isn't locked and it is unlikely some gang is going to come over tonight and break in. If they do it will be lead story on national news and we'll have days of postings about crime and rantings from the SST. If it happened overseas in some countries, it would be pretty much what happened every night and hardly newsworthy.

You have no idea at all do you.

It is happening, nightly, It just doesn't make the news unless they get the wrong house.

rob_on_guitar
26-12-2009, 10:55 PM
You have no idea at all do you.

It is happening, nightly, It just doesn't make the news unless they get the wrong house.
I think 12v has been extremely lucky and fortunate or lives very sheltered.

Metla
26-12-2009, 10:58 PM
So what about his claim about having worked as a prosecutor?

Bit of a porky.:lol:

prefect
27-12-2009, 07:39 AM
Probably lives in a well to do area of Wellington and is isolated from crime. Prosecutors would live in a walled house with an electric gate and intercom.

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 08:16 AM
So what about his claim about having worked as a prosecutor?

Bit of a porky.:lol:

Not at all - I lived in Wanganui at the time as well so I can't recall a single case of home invasion, there were of course burglaries, I think our office got burgled three times. Most crime was in the part of town where the criminals lived, and was perpetuated on other criminals.

Cicero
27-12-2009, 08:20 AM
Probably lives in a well to do area of Wellington and is isolated from crime. Prosecutors would live in a walled house with an electric gate and intercom.

And then claim all is well in the world.

It is all on par with not liking euthanasia,we can't accept there is a time to go and includes removing these thugs and low life's.

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 08:29 AM
Probably lives in a well to do area of Wellington and is isolated from crime. Prosecutors would live in a walled house with an electric gate and intercom.

I doubt you could call Johnsonville a well to do part of town, and as I said previously I have been burgled and the Police caught the offenders. I got reparation and they did community service, and we all got to meet them in a conference with all victims and tell them what we thought of them. It all worked well and as far as I know neither offender has reoffended.

But as fate would have it, my son was assaulted last night and I've just got back from picking him up at the hospital, a few stitches but thankfully he is otherwise alright. Looks like he got assaulted by some vigilante type who mistook him for someone who had damaged his car a few weeks earlier. The Police were called and have the guy, so it will be interesting to see what happens next but as it is an unprovoked assault, let's hope Garth and company don't swan in and get the guy off.

So that's what happens when you take the law into your own hands.

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 08:33 AM
And then claim all is well in the world.

It is all on par with not liking euthanasia,we can't accept there is a time to go and includes removing these thugs and low life's.

I never claimed all is well in the world, I actually claimed the solutions proposed by people like you are contributing to the problem not solving it.

Cicero
27-12-2009, 08:42 AM
I actually claimed the solutions proposed by people like you are contributing to the problem not solving it.

Which is the view of most on here,so where does that get us.?

As the man said,never the twain shall meet.

R2x1
27-12-2009, 10:06 AM
Some claims have no chance of being recognised, let alone ratified.

rob_on_guitar
27-12-2009, 10:45 AM
How can our views contribute when our views are not in action?

Cicero
27-12-2009, 11:29 AM
How can our views contribute when our views are not in action?

Our views may help us think we are not alone.

rob_on_guitar
27-12-2009, 11:51 AM
I might start getting blurry vision after bbq lunch today I think. good times!

laworder
27-12-2009, 01:51 PM
We have two generations of lawlessness created by the systems you support to counter act, It will take two generations and suitable polices to address the situation that has been created.

More power to parents.
More power to the community.
More power to the police
More power to the schools.
More power to the victims
More power to the courts.

Less power for the criminal.

Precisely. The core problem is that repeat violent/sexual offenders have the same rights as their victims, and people in general, for example privacy rights, a right to unlimited access to legal aid which is entirely fair for a first or second offence but becaomes a travesty by the time 100 plus convictions have totalled up.

This sitation has arisen over decades, arising from the foolish idea that all should be treated as equal regardless of their behaviour and have equal rights. Only when that core assumption changes will we truly start making large scale progress. And both National and Labour governments have been equally at fault here.

This is not an issue where a race based approach is constructive, however, and on that count I would agree with twelvevolts. Maori my feature in prison stats but they also loom large in victim stats too

Regards

Peter

laworder
27-12-2009, 01:57 PM
If the deterrent isn't working no matter the severity then the next best option is to remove them from the community for as long as possible, whats so hard to understand about that?

You think the communities should be made to suffer the actions of the criminals?, or that the criminals should suffer for their actions?

Straight up, which group in your opinion deserve to suffer?

Exactly, Metla has gotten to the heart of what sentencing needs to focus on - not punishment, not deterrence, (as you will only ever deter some of the offenders some of the time), but INCAPACITATION.

Getting repeat violent/ sexual offenders out of circulation until they are no longer a threat to society. For some that may be 60 years plus. Expensive, but still cheaper then letting them out to reoffend again and again, doing immense damage to a number of victims and ending up spending almost as long in prison anyway.

Yes, we also need to put resources into rehabilitation, but this needs to be focused on first/second offenders, not wasted on psychopaths and paedophiles who will never change anyway

Regards
Peter

laworder
27-12-2009, 02:05 PM
But as fate would have it, my son was assaulted last night and I've just got back from picking him up at the hospital, a few stitches but thankfully he is otherwise alright. Looks like he got assaulted by some vigilante type who mistook him for someone who had damaged his car a few weeks earlier. The Police were called and have the guy, so it will be interesting to see what happens next but as it is an unprovoked assault, let's hope Garth and company don't swan in and get the guy off.

So that's what happens when you take the law into your own hands.

I hope that any damn fool who is so stupid as to assault some innocent person without making sure that they have the right target feels the full force of the law... which in this country will probably not amoiunt to a great deal :-(

But the desire for people to take the law into their own hands only arises in the fisrt place because the system is failing them. If people feel that they will get real satisfaction from the justice system, in that the offenders are dealt with harshly and removed from society where appropriate then they will not feel they have to resort to vigilantism. Which by the way I happen to think is a very bad thing because of the probablity of exactly this kind of mistargetting

Regards
Peter

laworder
27-12-2009, 02:12 PM
Yep and we have one of the best Justice systems in the world as well, contrary to what the SST would have you believe. I hear all the time from people returning from overseas how much worse the crime was, we're really fortunate that we have low crimes rates and our murder rate is very low compared to the USA, but admittedly higher than many of the European countries who have a more "liberal" approach to crime.

But my door isn't locked and it is unlikely some gang is going to come over tonight and break in. If they do it will be lead story on national news and we'll have days of postings about crime and rantings from the SST. If it happened overseas in some countries, it would be pretty much what happened every night and hardly newsworthy.

I have travelled overseas, and to several places with much less crime than here, namely Singapore, Japan, New York, and Switzerland. While I was in Japan a home invasion that would have maybe made second page news here was all over the news there, and resulted in a parliamentary Inquiry and a state of the Nation address if I recall correctly

Our justice system isn't terrible, but there is definitely room for improvement

Regards
Peter

Richard
27-12-2009, 02:34 PM
If it happened overseas in some countries, it would be pretty much what happened every night and hardly newsworthy. Says twelve volts.

Oh well then , I guess that makes it all OK.

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 05:00 PM
If it happened overseas in some countries, it would be pretty much what happened every night and hardly newsworthy. Says twelve volts.

Oh well then , I guess that makes it all OK.

Sometimes it gets rather annoying when twerps like you make up a statement and then proceed to knock it down as if I was actually making that case in the first place.

New Zealand is relatively safe, do you dispute that? No one said crime is ok - you made that bit up.

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 05:20 PM
I have travelled overseas, and to several places with much less crime than here, namely Singapore, Japan, New York, and Switzerland. While I was in Japan a home invasion that would have maybe made second page news here was all over the news there, and resulted in a parliamentary Inquiry and a state of the Nation address if I recall correctly

Our justice system isn't terrible, but there is definitely room for improvement

Regards
Peter

Home invasions are lead story on the TV news here, I've never seen one on Page 2. New York having less crime - how long were you there? New York murder rate is over three times the rate of here according to figures published on the net.

The other three restrict freedom to some extent in a similar way to China. That's one approach if you're prepared to give up freedom for it, but I want less Government not more of it, and of course Japan doesn't have the best record in human rights in the last hundred years.

Sweep
27-12-2009, 05:47 PM
Sometimes it gets rather annoying when twerps like you make up a statement and then proceed to knock it down as if I was actually making that case in the first place.

New Zealand is relatively safe, do you dispute that? No one said crime is ok - you made that bit up.

I think we agree that crime is a problem.

What you have not said is how society should fix the problem in your view.

So what is your solution? How can we make this country safer than it is now?

Richard
27-12-2009, 05:51 PM
Twelvolts, YOU my friend are the idiot!

prefect
27-12-2009, 06:02 PM
Things are getting better although there is more crime, National and the Sensible Sentencing Trust efforts are putting the crims away longer. We reached a low point a few years ago with spineless judges and flaccid prosecutors.
Now law and order issues win elections never used to but even labor voters who are programmed at birth to vote for the reds have had enough.
We know we have won when the victim or victims kin say the sentence is tough enough had a few of them in the last few months.
The liberals had their day and now its time to wave them good bye and punish crooks severely.

Cicero
27-12-2009, 06:36 PM
Twelvolts, YOU my friend are the idiot!

No no no Richard,12v is the only one in step.

rob_on_guitar
27-12-2009, 06:48 PM
Home invasions are lead story on the TV news here, I've never seen one on Page 2. New York having less crime - how long were you there? New York murder rate is over three times the rate of here according to figures published on the net.

The other three restrict freedom to some extent in a similar way to China. That's one approach if you're prepared to give up freedom for it, but I want less Government not more of it, and of course Japan doesn't have the best record in human rights in the last hundred years.
You believe everything on the net?
I'm yet to see a home invasion make a top story in the new millennium...

rob_on_guitar
27-12-2009, 06:48 PM
BTW do you work for a media of news of some sort?

Jen
27-12-2009, 06:50 PM
Always ends up with personal attacks eh?

Terry's comment regarding the closing of threads is correct. If you start to take digs at each other instead of discussing the topic, the thread will be closed. Keep it up and the members involved will be given time out.

I think when the only argument you can come back with is an personal attack, then you have lost the point. Good debaters can argue their point (whatever that may be) while keeping it above the belt while others start tossing toys out of the cot.

Keep it nice please.

rob_on_guitar
27-12-2009, 07:59 PM
This one is kinda weird when its directed at a few apparently 'racist inciting' crowd here apparently...

It starts off with 'a few posters here...' so isn't that immediately a ban?

Not being a smart ass but you must expect a few comments if that is what the thread is about?

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 08:03 PM
I descended to the level of some others here - I apologise. I started the day getting my son out of hospital after an unprovoked assault, I didn't appreciate someone accusing me of not caring about crime when they didn't bother to read what was written.

prefect
27-12-2009, 08:16 PM
Its always unprovoked if its your kids.

Cicero
27-12-2009, 08:18 PM
Its always unprovoked if its your kids.

One has to hope lads Halo wasn't damaged.

Jen
27-12-2009, 08:27 PM
This one is kinda weird when its directed at a few apparently 'racist inciting' crowd here apparently...

It starts off with 'a few posters here...' so isn't that immediately a ban?

Not being a smart ass but you must expect a few comments if that is what the thread is about?My comment above was directed at people who target members with their comments. There is a fine line between *general* comments and targeting a specific member.

I will repeat my comment - keep it nice or don't post it.


Cicero and Prefect: leave off the smart comments please.

Billy T
27-12-2009, 08:32 PM
Unusually for me, I have nothing to say about the content of this thread, but I'd like to add some relevant information for us all the chew on.

My wife works at an early childhood education centre (PC name for Kindy, 2-5yr olds) and has done for quite a few years.

The number of inadequately parented children they get from 'middle class' homes is, on the one hand, utterly amazing, and on the other, literally terrifying. Vis: Four year-olds who are not toilet trained, socialised with other children, can't feed themselves (yes really) or do not know basic numbers, colours or letters.

Children who cannot dress themselves, children who are 'toilet trained' but cannot wipe their own backside or fill their pants because nobody told them to go to the toilet. These ones are often sent to Kindy just a few months before they start school so that somebody else can get them ready for the real world.

Children so badly (or inadequately) socialised that they cannot play with other children, or have to either be kept separate or closely supervised (hard to do, even with a staff to child ratio of 1:7 or better (schools have 1:25 or worse).

Children that bite, spit, scratch, urinate where they stand, throw food, scream for several minutes at a time, vandalise books, toys and anything else they can get their hands on. They lie, blame others for their misdeeds, and their parents seem incapable of managing them at all. There are children who eat anything they are given at Kindy (all healthy food) but their parents feed them junk food at home and say that's all they'll eat.

So, these are not children from disadvantaged backgrounds, they are the children of 'middle class parents' who are financial enough to afford the costs of full-time Kindy, often while mum sits at home and does nothing.

These are the parents who dump their children into Kindy at every opportunity and complain that Kindy is closed on Boxing Day, or at Easter or any other public holiday, in fact some want it open Saturday and Sunday as well. They bring their children in sick with flu, stomach bugs, measles, eye infections and all sorts of contagious conditions (you name it) then complain when they are told to take them to a Doctor and not bring them back until well again.

Some of these kids last just a few weeks at school, then their behaviour is such that it is not safe to have them at the school and the parents are asked to remove them.

This has been going on for many years, getting ever worse, and we wonder why we have so many dysfunctional teenagers and young adults out there?

It is food for thought, when we look at youth crime and other antisocial behaviours.


Billy 8-{) :2cents:

rob_on_guitar
27-12-2009, 08:38 PM
true billy, ive seen this first hand also, some parents have alot to answer for, the bad breed bad i guess the adage goes

Cicero
27-12-2009, 08:43 PM
It must relate the the period the parents grew up in,where there appears to be no sense of responsibility.

Jen would know!

prefect
27-12-2009, 08:57 PM
Unusually for me, I have nothing to say about the content of this thread, but I'd like to add some relevant information for us all the chew on.

My wife works at an early childhood education centre (PC name for Kindy, 2-5yr olds) and has done for quite a few years.

The number of inadequately parented children they get from 'middle class' homes is, on the one hand, utterly amazing, and on the other, literally terrifying. Vis: Four year-olds who are not toilet trained, socialised with other children, can't feed themselves (yes really) or do not know basic numbers, colours or letters.

Children who cannot dress themselves, children who are 'toilet trained' but cannot wipe their own backside or fill their pants because nobody told them to go to the toilet. These ones are often sent to Kindy just a few months before they start school so that somebody else can get them ready for the real world.

Children so badly (or inadequately) socialised that they cannot play with other children, or have to either be kept separate or closely supervised (hard to do, even with a staff to child ratio of 1:7 or better (schools have 1:25 or worse).

Children that bite, spit, scratch, urinate where they stand, throw food, scream for several minutes at a time, vandalise books, toys and anything else they can get their hands on. They lie, blame others for their misdeeds, and their parents seem incapable of managing them at all. There are children who eat anything they are given at Kindy (all healthy food) but their parents feed them junk food at home and say that's all they'll eat.

So, these are not children from disadvantaged backgrounds, they are the children of 'middle class parents' who are financial enough to afford the costs of full-time Kindy, often while mum sits at home and does nothing.

These are the parents who dump their children into Kindy at every opportunity and complain that Kindy is closed on Boxing Day, or at Easter or any other public holiday, in fact some want it open Saturday and Sunday as well. They bring their children in sick with flu, stomach bugs, measles, eye infections and all sorts of contagious conditions (you name it) then complain when they are told to take them to a Doctor and not bring them back until well again.

Some of these kids last just a few weeks at school, then their behaviour is such that it is not safe to have them at the school and the parents are asked to remove them.

This has been going on for many years, getting ever worse, and we wonder why we have so many dysfunctional teenagers and young adults out there?

It is food for thought, when we look at youth crime and other antisocial behaviours.


Billy 8-{) :2cents:


I dont think you find anyone who will argue with you Billy all of what you have said is true. But most people too scared to write the truth.
Beats me why couples have kids at all if they are going to dump them in child care places. You cant tell me this doesn't lead to mal adjusted kids.
Although I dont see a problem with kindy 1/2 day from 3 1/2 to 5.

rob_on_guitar
27-12-2009, 09:12 PM
The kindy thing doesn't worry me, its the parent time that does, it is a parents job to make their kid know whats right or wrong and make sure that kid can wipe his/her own ass.
I was gutted when my baby girl had to go to crèche only because my work is all over the show hours wise otherwise I would have been a stay at home dad.

B.M.
27-12-2009, 09:21 PM
You’re on the button there Billy and it will come as no comfort to know that it isn’t just NZ.

My daughter works at a primary school in Brisbane and tells stories just as you’ve described. The Australians seem to have attacked the problem differently as at this school they have a Class Teacher and however many teacher aids as is required in that class. In my daughters case she has just four kids within the class to look after. So the teacher works through the curriculum and the assistants look after those allocated to them. Of course the majority of kids in the class don’t have a “minder” allocated, they just carry on as normal.

My daughter tells me it quite rewarding if you can get a kid to behave normally but as frustrating as can be when you meet the parents who in most cases are a drug infested waste of space.

However, the remuneration isn’t too bad at $28 an hour. I guess the Aussies have accepted that these kids are going to cost the State dollars sooner or later so it’s better to spend the dollars early and try to avoid housing and feeding them for lengthy periods as a guest of the State later.

I still say that every kid is born honest and in 99% of the time behavioural problems can be tracked back to the parents. :rolleyes:

martynz
27-12-2009, 10:09 PM
Don't seem to get much comment on here about white collar crims.
Like those bankers who tried to rip off the IRD and therefore us taxpayers.
Or the financial company crooks who have ripped off a lot of small investors.
The asset strippers who close factories and companies making thousands unemployed.
What is their ethnicity? Not many brown faces among that load of shysters.

Martynz

Richard
27-12-2009, 10:12 PM
Don't seem to get much comment on here about white collar crims.
Like those bankers who tried to rip off the IRD and therefore us taxpayers.
Or the financial company crooks who have ripped off a lot of small investors.
The asset strippers who close factories and companies making thousands unemployed.
What is their ethnicity? Not many brown faces among that load of shysters.

Martynz

Please tell us which of these were criminals, and charged with criminal behaviour? Or get your facts right before you post.

Cicero
27-12-2009, 10:18 PM
Please tell us which of these were criminals, and charged with criminal behaviour? Or get your facts right before you post.

I think it is the ratio that is the problem,500:1,guess who the 500 is?

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 11:00 PM
Its always unprovoked if its your kids.

Yes in your world the person throwing the punches always has a justification as long as they think they are in the right.

andrew93
27-12-2009, 11:07 PM
Or the financial company crooks who have ripped off a lot of small investors.

Did you see Petricevic got a bit of vigilante justice? (http://www.stuff.co.nz/sunday-star-times/news/3106501/Angry-investors-rough-up-Bridgecorp-boss)

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 11:17 PM
No no no Richard,12v is the only one in step.

Better to be out of step than follow your view of the world, we can't all be sheep after all.

Just watched the film Five Minutes Of Heaven which was excellent. I highly recommend it to you, you might learn something from it.

qazwsxokmijn
27-12-2009, 11:17 PM
Don't seem to get much comment on here about white collar crims.
Like those bankers who tried to rip off the IRD and therefore us taxpayers.
Or the financial company crooks who have ripped off a lot of small investors.
The asset strippers who close factories and companies making thousands unemployed.
What is their ethnicity? Not many brown faces among that load of shysters.

Martynz
So you think we condone these white criminals? Or Asian criminals? Race is no aspect to crime....scumbags are raceless; they are only one kind: scum. I have absolutely no interest in the race of a fraudster, murderer, rapist etc. I do however have an interest in the method of execution. Preferably longer and more torturous for more callous crimes.

Twelvevolts
27-12-2009, 11:25 PM
So you think we condone these white criminals? Or Asian criminals? Race is no aspect to crime....scumbags are raceless; they are only one kind: scum. I have absolutely no interest in the race of a fraudster, murderer, rapist etc. I do however have an interest in the method of execution. Preferably longer and more torturous for more callous crimes.

Well you're an equal opportunity hang man. And a quick death at least for those that steal a newspaper.

qazwsxokmijn
28-12-2009, 01:50 AM
Well you're an equal opportunity hang man. And a quick death at least for those that steal a newspaper.
Oh yes, just because stealing a newspaper is right up there with murdering an innocent.:rolleyes:

Sure, I could have worded my point better but to counter it with your comment is just dumb and an invitation to controversy. You know full well I wouldn't want death for small things like that. Or jail, so don't play that card.

plod
28-12-2009, 07:32 AM
So you think we condone these white criminals? Or Asian criminals? Race is no aspect to crime....scumbags are raceless; they are only one kind: scum. I have absolutely no interest in the race of a fraudster, murderer, rapist etc. I do however have an interest in the method of execution. Preferably longer and more torturous for more callous crimes.

So from what you say, your house will be totally free from any pirated material off the internet, be it software, music and video?
While I dear say at least half the people on this forum would be scumbags

prefect
28-12-2009, 08:30 AM
Don't seem to get much comment on here about white collar crims.
Like those bankers who tried to rip off the IRD and therefore us taxpayers.
Or the financial company crooks who have ripped off a lot of small investors.
The asset strippers who close factories and companies making thousands unemployed.
What is their ethnicity? Not many brown faces among that load of shysters.

Martynz

Ripping off the IRS lol, I have always thought the IRS ripped me off. The IRS here has just stung our banks zillions.
Asset strippers its caused business, the machines go some where else and employ people.
Think globally instead of your back yard.
The reason the brown faces aren't there is because they are somewhere else.

prefect
28-12-2009, 08:33 AM
Yes in your world the person throwing the punches always has a justification as long as they think they are in the right.

Leave it alone volts, the moderator has given me a warning.

martynz
28-12-2009, 08:36 AM
Please tell us which of these were criminals, and charged with criminal behaviour? Or get your facts right before you post.

So you don't think this is criminal behaviour?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/business/3191641/Banks-to-pay-billions-owed
And the Hanover finance robbers living high on the hog.

Martynz

plod
28-12-2009, 08:39 AM
Ripping off the IRS lol, I have always thought the IRS ripped me off. The IRS here has just stung our banks zillions.
Asset strippers its caused business, the machines go some where else and employ people.
Think globally instead of your back yard.
The reason the brown faces aren't there is because they are somewhere else.

Well a buisness that rips off the ird, can sell there services cheaper because of low overheads, making it harder for competing, complying buisnesses to compete.

martynz
28-12-2009, 08:40 AM
Ripping off the IRS lol, I have always thought the IRS ripped me off. The IRS here has just stung our banks zillions.
Asset strippers its caused business, the machines go some where else and employ people.
Think globally instead of your back yard.
The reason the brown faces aren't there is because they are somewhere else.

Its the IRD Prefect, did you read the news stories properly?
Wow, Prefect thinking about other people in other parts of the world.
There must have been a Christmas miracle.

Martynz

Richard
28-12-2009, 08:44 AM
So you don't think this is criminal behaviour?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/business/3191641/Banks-to-pay-billions-owed
And the Hanover finance robbers living high on the hog.

Martynz

No, in fact it was not criminal behaviour. It was a dispute over a deal which the banks were led to believe was lawful. In the end the banks had to pay 80% of the tax owed. IT WAS NOT A CRIMINAL ACT. You seem to confuse unethical behaviour with criminal behaviour. Get that right. Are you about 12?

prefect
28-12-2009, 08:45 AM
So you don't think this is criminal behaviour?
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/business/3191641/Banks-to-pay-billions-owed
And the Hanover finance robbers living high on the hog.

Martynz

As far as the the banks and the IRS its not criminal behaviour, tax avoidance is good business practice. Its a cat and mouse game you have a tricky accountant/lawyer and the IRS has a 10 foot high pile of tax laws books.
May the best man win.

rob_on_guitar
28-12-2009, 08:47 AM
Martynz:
Wow! you knew what he meant but you still tried to make yourself look holier than thou.
This thread sux because you guys are just nit picking and borderline trolling

prefect
28-12-2009, 08:54 AM
Well a buisness that rips off the ird, can sell there services cheaper because of low overheads, making it harder for competing, complying buisnesses to compete.

Tax avoidance I wouldnt call ripping off the IRS, its just an interpretation of the tax laws. Because for several tax periods the IRS didnt collect the banks thought they were ok.
Then IRS comes back with a retro tax bill.

plod
28-12-2009, 08:55 AM
Tax avoidance I wouldnt call ripping off the IRS, its just an interpretation of the tax laws. Because for several tax periods the IRS didnt collect the banks thought they were ok.
Then IRS comes back with retro tax bill.

Not talking about tax avoidance, talking falsifying accounts to pay less tax, which I believe is tax fraud, not avoidance.

martynz
28-12-2009, 09:03 AM
No, in fact it was not criminal behaviour. It was a dispute over a deal which the banks were led to believe was lawful. In the end the banks had to pay 80% of the tax owed. IT WAS NOT A CRIMINAL ACT. You seem to confuse unethical behaviour with criminal behaviour. Get that right. Are you about 12?

I'm probably older than you. And try to be polite even to people who nitpick about the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance.

Martynz

Richard
28-12-2009, 09:50 AM
I'm probably older than you. And try to be polite even to people who nitpick about the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance.

Martynz

First, if it was tax evasion, which is illegal, there would have been a prosecution and a fine. There wasn't. Therefore no criminal act has occurred. The difference between the two acts you refer to is not nitpicking. Try tax evasion for yourself and see.

You would need to be 71and a half to be older than me. :p

Richard
28-12-2009, 10:07 AM
Not many brown faces among that load of shysters.

Martynz

Mark Bryers of Blue Chip fame?? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Cicero
28-12-2009, 10:11 AM
Mark Bryers of Blue Chip fame?? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

I remember a Georgina Byers,any relation?

mikebartnz
28-12-2009, 01:29 PM
I agree that the parents should be tried right alongside the kids.

As it is NZ has massive resources aimed at young persons and the crimes they commit, all of which are a series of trying to deal with them before they get classified as adults and are given adult penalties.

When they reach this age they get a clean slate, then as they continue offending they are once again bombarded with methods to get them to behave without locking them up.

Then then have to either continually break lots of small laws or a great big fat one in order to get locked up, and still people complain that society is in the wrong.

Yeah, because we pay for everything, Own stuff they can steal, and supply grand parents for them to rob, beat ,rape and kill.

**** em, A bullet in the head and a watery grave is what they deserve.
Part of the problem with young offenders is that there is no shame in what they have done so they never learn the lessons they need to. I sometimes think the old stocks wouldn't be a silly idea.

mikebartnz
28-12-2009, 01:31 PM
New Zealand is relatively safe, do you dispute that? No one said crime is ok - you made that bit up.
You may think it is relatively safe but it isn't nearly as safe as it used to be and you need to ask yourself why that is.

Sweep
28-12-2009, 01:32 PM
Also parenting skills should be taught in school.

laworder
28-12-2009, 01:47 PM
You may think it is relatively safe but it isn't nearly as safe as it used to be and you need to ask yourself why that is.

That is a good question. And to answer it we perhaps need to take a look at places where trends have been in the opposite direction, which is why I suggested New York earlier. New York did indeed have a horrendous murder rate more than three times ours not so many years ago. (Which would account for twelve volts statement to that effect earlier - his stats WERE accurate, but just not up to date). And other crime was absolutely rampant. New York was in short a hellhole. That changed, and rapidly, starting in the early to mid 1990's.

The murder rate has now come down by well over 60% on 1990's levels (maybe more now, I must check). Other violent crime levels have dropped in line with that more or less. Street crime is now a rarity, and walking around I felt much safer than in Auckland. And I did a lot of walking, including all around every bit of Central Park (intentionally) and three hours walking half the length of Manhatten late on a Saturday night (unintentionally cos I mislaid the subway)

Yes, it is still not perfect, they still have crime, just as any society has some crime, but the trend has been in the right direction, and dramatically so. Singapore likewise achieved a similar result over a longer time period from the 50's to the 70's if I recall correctly. Again, we cant cut and paste their model onto NZ, but we can definitely learn some things from them.

mikebartnz
28-12-2009, 08:00 PM
Also parenting skills should be taught in school.
All well and good but if it is the PC brigade doing the teaching I can't see much improvement.

Sweep
28-12-2009, 08:11 PM
All well and good but if it is the PC brigade doing the teaching I can't see much improvement.

Agreed.

Twelvevolts
28-12-2009, 09:04 PM
Oh yes, just because stealing a newspaper is right up there with murdering an innocent.:rolleyes:

Sure, I could have worded my point better but to counter it with your comment is just dumb and an invitation to controversy. You know full well I wouldn't want death for small things like that. Or jail, so don't play that card.

Has it ever occurred to you that the people making the laws also have to think about it and word things carefully. Clearly you get carried away with yourself and whilst I didn't expect even you would murder people for a newspaper, fact is you rant on about the death penalty persistently so we must assume you favour killing people (which even your spiritual mentor doesn't agree with) and from your own writing you favour it for fairly minor crimes. I think you supported murdering a teenager for putting graffiti on a wall, how is that much different than a newspaper theft?

Richard
28-12-2009, 09:09 PM
Go to bed now and maybe have a better day tomorrow. :rolleyes::sleep

Twelvevolts
28-12-2009, 09:11 PM
No, in fact it was not criminal behaviour. It was a dispute over a deal which the banks were led to believe was lawful. In the end the banks had to pay 80% of the tax owed. IT WAS NOT A CRIMINAL ACT. You seem to confuse unethical behaviour with criminal behaviour. Get that right. Are you about 12?

It's straight forward really, the bank tried to get one over on the IRD and the IRD won. No one is going to criminal court and no offence has been committed as far as I've heard. It's called capitalism, love it or loath it it is the best system we've got.

As for gullible investors - you take your chances on high paying schemes and you lose, well don't blame the guy who ran the scheme. If he committed fraud well fair enough bring in the Police or Serious Fraud office, but losing money doesn't mean a crime was committed. People were either greedy or poorly advised about investments prior to the economic downturn, they should take it on the chin and move on.

qazwsxokmijn
28-12-2009, 09:12 PM
Has it ever occurred to you that the people making the laws also have to think about it and word thing carefully...blah x3
Has it occurred to you making laws is not my job? This is a mere discussion, not a law-making session. Who's getting carried away now? ;)

Twelvevolts
28-12-2009, 09:23 PM
You may think it is relatively safe but it isn't nearly as safe as it used to be and you need to ask yourself why that is.

Well when was it safer and what is your theory about why? Garth Mc Vicar says it was 1951, six years after a World War that killed a sizable portion of the male population.

Twelvevolts
28-12-2009, 09:26 PM
Has it occurred to you making laws is not my job? This is a mere discussion, not a law-making session. Who's getting carried away now? ;)

If you support the death penalty then why? It isn't a deterrent, even the SST acknowledge that and innocent people to get convicted of murder, we know that from the large number getting cleared by DNA evidence. So why would you want to have the death penalty?

Sweep
28-12-2009, 09:32 PM
If you support the death penalty then why? It isn't a deterrent, even the SST acknowledge that and innocent people to get convicted of murder, we know that from the large number getting cleared by DNA evidence. So why would you want to have the death penalty?

Back in post 55 I said this:=

"I think we agree that crime is a problem.

What you have not said is how society should fix the problem in your view.

So what is your solution? How can we make this country safer than it is now?"

You have conveniently chosen not to reply. Can I assume you have no solution and it is easier to criticise others for their input than to offer a viable alternative?

Twelvevolts
28-12-2009, 09:41 PM
That is a good question. And to answer it we perhaps need to take a look at places where trends have been in the opposite direction, which is why I suggested New York earlier. New York did indeed have a horrendous murder rate more than three times ours not so many years ago. (Which would account for twelve volts statement to that effect earlier - his stats WERE accurate, but just not up to date). And other crime was absolutely rampant. New York was in short a hellhole. That changed, and rapidly, starting in the early to mid 1990's.

The murder rate has now come down by well over 60% on 1990's levels (maybe more now, I must check). Other violent crime levels have dropped in line with that more or less. Street crime is now a rarity, and walking around I felt much safer than in Auckland. And I did a lot of walking, including all around every bit of Central Park (intentionally) and three hours walking half the length of Manhatten late on a Saturday night (unintentionally cos I mislaid the subway)

Yes, it is still not perfect, they still have crime, just as any society has some crime, but the trend has been in the right direction, and dramatically so. Singapore likewise achieved a similar result over a longer time period from the 50's to the 70's if I recall correctly. Again, we cant cut and paste their model onto NZ, but we can definitely learn some things from them.

2008 figures for New York were 6.3 per 100000.

New Zealand murder rate has halved in 20 years according to the New Zealand Herald and on the latest figures I could find sits at about 2 per 100000, but someone may have the latest figures.

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10565563&pnum=1

So the country is significantly safer than it was in terms of murders anyway.

So looks like we're doing a whole lot better than New York despite what the SST might tell you.

Actual crime and fear of crime are of course not the same thing, fear of crime is up here dramatically I suspect due to the SST.

Twelvevolts
28-12-2009, 09:51 PM
Back in post 55 I said this:=

"I think we agree that crime is a problem.

What you have not said is how society should fix the problem in your view.

So what is your solution? How can we make this country safer than it is now?"

You have conveniently chosen not to reply. Can I assume you have no solution and it is easier to criticise others for their input than to offer a viable alternative?

Despite what you think, the country isn't less safe than it used to be, see the Herald article link I posted above.

It's you that is trying to change the system not me, the current system works reasonably well (every system can be improved of course), we are a punitive country and have the second highest imprisonment rate in the western world, and we put very little money into rehabilitation. I hold a qualification in Criminal Justice, Penal Policy and Sentencing from my days working in the Courts, I've at least studied what impacts on crime rates, fear of crime. and the reasons for crime. If you seriously want to know you can find out, but tougher sentencing will not in my opinion work to reduce the crime rate, it is more than likely going to make us a more violent society.

I have to say I'm pleased not to be working in Justice system any more - life is much easier being an IT Manager.

Sweep
28-12-2009, 10:12 PM
Despite what you think, the country isn't less safe than it used to be, see the Herald article link I posted above.

It's you that is trying to change the system not me, the current system works reasonably well (every system can be improved of course), we are a punitive country and have the second highest imprisonment rate in the western world, and we put very little money into rehabilitation. I hold a qualification in Criminal Justice, Penal Policy and Sentencing from my days working in the Courts, I've at least studied what impacts on crime rates, fear of crime. and the reasons for crime. If you seriously want to know you can find out, but tougher sentencing will not in my opinion work to reduce the crime rate, it is more than likely going to make us a more violent society.

I have to say I'm pleased not to be working in Justice system any more - life is much easier being an IT Manager.

The Herald article only covers murders and therefore does not cover other acts of violence does it?

I now will go build a table from data accesible from NZ Stats data.

prefect
28-12-2009, 10:24 PM
If crooks keep commiting crime then this National government is determined to incarate them.
I think liberal judges and prosecutors have caused big problems in the past now when ever they sentence lightly there are howls of rage. I reckon they might be starting to take notice of public sentiment.
I dont care if we have the second higest imprisioning rate in the western world if the crooks are off the streets good for me and my family

qazwsxokmijn
28-12-2009, 10:26 PM
would you want to have the death penalty?
Eliminate any chance of scums from ever hurting another person, families, and society as a whole. Plus, their death means less burden on taxpayers in the long run. It also acts a bit like natural selection for the good natured people. The bad people gets executed, the good people continue to live.

And no, I'm not willing to give callous criminals and rapists any chance. The saying 'everybody deserves a second chance' doesn't apply to them. Did they give their victims a chance?

SurferJoe46
29-12-2009, 07:13 AM
New York murder rate is over three times the rate of here according to figures published on the net.


Do you know WHY murders and mayhem are higher there?

The Sullivan Act which prohibits citizens from owning a concealable firearm.

The law abiding citizen, of course, won't keep a handgun - but the criminal does and they commit these crimes at will because they know the average person is NOT armed.

I - of course - do not own any firearms, having given them up years ago when children first appeared at my dinner table - but isn't that little revelation interesting. (Not about children at my table - but the Sullivan Act) and it's an unfortunate creation of a target-class of people and a shooting-class of criminals?

Peterj116
29-12-2009, 08:47 AM
But all Americans have guns. They're on TV, so it must be true....

SurferJoe46
29-12-2009, 08:55 AM
But all Americans have guns. They're on TV, so it must be true....

Then it must be true - TV never lies

Truth be told: those of us who don't have guns have large gasoline sucking 4wd behemoth vehicles that burn the world's fuel supply and darken the skies creating a nuclear winter.

It's six of one - half a dozen of the other.

Cicero
29-12-2009, 09:07 AM
Then it must be true - TV never lies

Truth be told: those of us who don't have guns have large gasoline sucking 4wd behemoth vehicles that burn the world's fuel supply and darken the skies creating a nuclear winter.

It's six of one - half a dozen of the other.

Whoever invented the hummer needs a jolly good thrashing.

SurferJoe46
29-12-2009, 09:45 AM
It's those lousy Italians!

WIKI follows:


.................(the) United States Army concluded that the militarized civilian trucks in use no longer satisfied their requirements. In 1977, Lamborghini developed the Cheetah model in attempt to meet the Army contract specifications.

In 1979, the Army drafted final specifications for a High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle, or HMMWV. In July of that year, AM General (a subsidiary of American Motors Corporation) began preliminary design work, and less than a year later, the first prototype, the M998, was in testing.

In June 1981, the Army awarded AM General a contract for development of several more prototype vehicles to be delivered to the U.S. government for another series of tests, and the company was later awarded the initial production contract for 55,000 HMMWVs to be delivered in 1985. HMMWVs first saw combat in Operation Just Cause, the US invasion of Panama in 1989.

More WIKI:


History

The Cheetah was Lamborghini's first attempt at an off-road vehicle. It was built on contract from Mobility Technology International, which in turn was contracted by the US military to design and build a new all-terrain vehicle. The basis of the design came from MTI, and was largely a copy of FMC's XR311 prototype developed for the military in 1970. This resulted in legal action from FMC against MTI and Lamborghini in 1977 when the Cheetah was presented at the Geneva Auto Show. The XR311 and Cheetah could be considered progenitors of the current Humvee.

An interesting link too (http://www.lambocars.com/lm/cheetah.htm)

Cicero
29-12-2009, 09:58 AM
Seems rather a large target none the less.

A Texan must have had something to do with it somewhere along the line.

SurferJoe46
29-12-2009, 11:46 AM
Seems rather a large target none the less.

A Texan must have had something to do with it somewhere along the line.

Let's blame the French anyway. They make good scapegoats and everyone knows they created a lot of the problems around the world.

R2x1
29-12-2009, 12:08 PM
There is apparently a lot of correspondence - -

Cicero
29-12-2009, 12:33 PM
Let's blame the French anyway. They make good scapegoats and everyone knows they created a lot of the problems around the world.

I'll go along with that Joey.

kenj
29-12-2009, 12:44 PM
Let's blame the French anyway. They make good scapegoats and everyone knows they created a lot of the problems around the world.

Wow Joe, that is the American pot calling the French kettle black.

I think the Americans have got their tits in a tangle over the French refusing to send an army to the middle East. We come in peace - shoot to kill, Jim.

Might have been the French's revenge for Pershing holding back his army from the front for around a year after America declared war in 1917. Correct me if I am wrong, but despite the requests for assistance, the first American Army battle in France in WW1 started approx 42 days before the end of the war in 1918. There were just a few troops seconded to British and French armies to learn the ropes but very few in the overall context of the war.

I am not sticking up for the French, but you do tend to put things down that are not American.

Ken

R2x1
29-12-2009, 12:55 PM
Whereas the Eurostuff is self - propelled ;)

SurferJoe46
29-12-2009, 01:21 PM
Wow Joe, that is the American pot calling the French kettle black.

I think the Americans have got their tits in a tangle over the French refusing to send an army to the middle East. We come in peace - shoot to kill, Jim.

Might have been the French's revenge for Pershing holding back his army from the front for around a year after America declared war in 1917. Correct me if I am wrong, but despite the requests for assistance, the first American Army battle in France in WW1 started approx 42 days before the end of the war in 1918. There were just a few troops seconded to British and French armies to learn the ropes but very few in the overall context of the war.

I am not sticking up for the French, but you do tend to put things down that are not American.

Ken

You got me there - I am not versed in that particular war...........


..and besides, I just threw that into the pot as an arcane comment anyway.

However - I also know that the US is responsible for many atrocities that are even on this site, not heralded.

I like the line from Men In Black when asked if the people shouldn't be told that there are aliens living amongst them and therefor they can handle the truth - the line goes something like this when Kay says: "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. ".

Individually most persons tend to be honest, kind and considerate. It's only when two or more people gather together trying to outdo someone else that things go wrong.

mikebartnz
29-12-2009, 01:26 PM
Well when was it safer and what is your theory about why? Garth Mc Vicar says it was 1951, six years after a World War that killed a sizable portion of the male population.
During the late fifties and early sixties there were probably only a couple of murders a year and they were front page news for days whereas now they hardly even get on the front page.
I would be very interested to know the crime statistics for the depression in the early thirties. It would be a hell of a lot less than it is now.
As to the theory about why. I think television has been a bad influence and the young are not being held responsible for what they do. eg I think it was a teenager from Wanganui who a judge let off $40,000 in traffic fines. Why was he ever able to get to that stage. His car should have been sold well before then to pay for those fines.

Cicero
29-12-2009, 01:57 PM
One would find it interesting hearing the judges justification of the $40000 fine let off!

I know there some on here that would give him pat on the back as he walked grinning from the courtroom.

Sweep
29-12-2009, 01:59 PM
And again Twelvevolts makes much of an article in The Herald which could be countered with this article:-

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0904/S00122.htm

Twelvevolts
29-12-2009, 03:07 PM
And again Twelvevolts makes much of an article in The Herald which could be countered with this article:-

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA0904/S00122.htm

No I don't "make much" of the article in the sense you use it, I agree that historical stats can lead to problems of interpretation. There will always be people who want to look back to some better time they perceive in the past, seems people remember better the good times and forget what the bad parts of living in those times. Again 1950's are likely to have had a low murder rate because so many young men were killed in the 1940's, therefore there was full employment and a smaller and more rural population.

For me, I'd rather be living now than at any other time in history. New Zealand is a good place to live and I hope we don't let the types who want the death penalty get what they want, it would be a big step in the wrong direction.

Twelvevolts
29-12-2009, 03:10 PM
Whoever invented the hummer needs a jolly good thrashing.

Well I was in a stretched hummer the other day, why muck around with the regular model.