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Yorick
12-10-2009, 11:00 AM
:help:

Up front, I'm the Marketing Contact for OpenOffice.org in NZ and I'm after some info.

For obvious reasons, like everyone being able to copy it and pass it around, it's difficult for us to get an idea who out there across the digital landscape is using OOo. We used to have a "registration" thing which involved long convoluted survey that only a very small minority of our users filled out. That has been changed now and the survey is optional but you can still register and tell us you're using it (Please do, 3.2 is due for release in the not far distant future so when you upgrade, please register, it only takes 30 seconds.). Unfortunately, locally, that doesn't help me a lot.

So I thought I'd ask on here if people would tell me if you use OpenOffice.org, either at home or at work, please specify, I don't need to know the organisation, although that would be nice. If you want it kept confidential you can get my contact details from http://marketing.openoffice.org/contacts.html

We are now thinking about 4.0 as well, so please feel free to add your favorite wishlist or b**ch to the thread.

Thanks

KarameaDave
12-10-2009, 11:14 AM
Yep,at home I use both the Windows and Linux versions
my wife uses the Linux version on PClinuxOS
Generally does anything we need.:)

wratterus
12-10-2009, 11:17 AM
I would install it 15+ times a week on various machines, all from the same installation file, never registered any of 'em. I know I should, just never seem to have the time. ;)

Good product, looking forward to OOo 4, it's going really well only bugbear is how much RAM it gobbles up if it's running on startup. Not a problem for newer machines but it can really crawl on some slightly older XP machines.

fred_fish
12-10-2009, 11:29 AM
Using it more & more as people keep sending me .docx :)

seltsam
12-10-2009, 11:46 AM
Work from home and use it for WP and spreadsheet - really appreciate it!
Just filled in the survey, but can't be bothered registering - yet another password :(

Murray P
12-10-2009, 12:31 PM
Yep, have it on 2 machines in a home office. Have used it since the first RC and completely ditched MS's version at about 1.4 or 5 IIRC. Have used it on both Win and Nix.

Agent_24
12-10-2009, 12:36 PM
I started using OpenOffice since version 3, and I've ditched Microsoft Office on all my home computers

I like it because it's free, it does everything that MS Office does (and some things better!) and also because it's multi platform.

I do however still use Corel Office as well on some machines....

linw
12-10-2009, 12:58 PM
I have started using it on Win 7 as the re-installed MSOffice 2000 is just too hard to update (Word crashes on exit).

So, put me down as a home user from now on.

FAB
12-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Use it, love it, install it for others, but does it have everything Office has? No - it so desperately needs an email client to be included in the build to keep the interface similar between apps.
Also if I'm allowed to b***H as you suggest, to have an option on install that file types default to Office XP/2003 would be just fantastic - the first thing I do after install is change default file types.

KiwiTT_NZ
12-10-2009, 01:10 PM
Home User. Use it now in preference to Excel 2007

Cyberhuskey
12-10-2009, 01:34 PM
Have been using it for ages and am very pleased with it.

Only reason I still keep an old version of Microsoft Office is for copying/pasting text from internet pages into a text document. Microsoft Office does it perfectly and OpenOffice has difficulties with this, especially with the layout.

kjaada
12-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Partner and I have used it for many years.Beats anything else hands down.

wratterus
12-10-2009, 03:45 PM
Also if I'm allowed to b***H as you suggest, to have an option on install that file types default to Office XP/2003 would be just fantastic - the first thing I do after install is change default file types.

Actually - very good point. I change this every time, first thing after install. A tick box during install (along with the create a desktop icon or some such place) would be absolutely ideal. I'd send you a 15 box if you implemented that!! :punk

gary67
12-10-2009, 04:57 PM
Yes an email client with Outlook features (calender, tasks etc) would see me running it as my default and ditching MS office completely, we run a mixture of OO and MS 03 and 07

tut
12-10-2009, 05:46 PM
Home user. Find it is great. Like the price.

Sweep
12-10-2009, 05:50 PM
Office 2007 works for me and it's also used in most Education facilities.

FoxyMX
12-10-2009, 06:03 PM
Whilst I don't use it myself as I have MS Office, I have installed OpenOffice on quite a number of computers and the main thing I don't like about it is the time it takes to load. I also don't like it putting itself in Startup to speed up the loading time, just as I don't like MS Office doing that either.

Like others have said, having the file types default to Office docs would be a good move.

Poppa John
12-10-2009, 06:22 PM
Does anyone have a good download link? Thanks PJ

Yorick
12-10-2009, 06:24 PM
Have been using it for ages and am very pleased with it.

Only reason I still keep an old version of Microsoft Office is for copying/pasting text from internet pages into a text document. Microsoft Office does it perfectly and OpenOffice has difficulties with this, especially with the layout.

I use "Paste special > paste as formatted text" (ctrl+shift+v)which has the advantage of getting shot of all the garbage in behind. This leaves the pictures out however.

Yorick
12-10-2009, 06:51 PM
Does anyone have a good download link? Thanks PJ

The best download link locally is
http://mirror.ece.auckland.ac.nz/openoffice/
It will only accept connections from .nz providers

Poppa John
12-10-2009, 07:05 PM
The best download link locally is
http://mirror.ece.auckland.ac.nz/openoffice/
It will only accept connections from .nz providers


The link doesn't work. PJ

Yorick
12-10-2009, 07:08 PM
Whilst I don't use it myself as I have MS Office, I have installed OpenOffice on quite a number of computers and the main thing I don't like about it is the time it takes to load.

It's something we're working on constantly. The biggest issue is the fact that it's monolithic in it's structure. ie it's one application rather than several individual ones like MSO, so speeding up the start-up is a challenge. However there are a few small things that you can do at install if launch speed is essential.



I also don't like it putting itself in Startup to speed up the loading time, just as I don't like MS Office doing that either.

I agree with you, it's a PITA on a network at upgrade time, unfortunately we're in a minority, what we've done however is make the quick launcher a bit more functional, at least in the Windows version and that piece of functionality is likely to stay even after we've sped the launch up.


Like others have said, having the file types default to Office docs would be a good move.

If you remember back a few versions we used to have quite a few options during install to do with foreign file formats. Those bl**dy options caused so much grief on the users list with people getting confused with them that we took them out, so that's unlikely to change anytime soon. MS are putting ODF support in Office 14 in any case so it shouldn't be an issue soon. For the project, it will finally be nice not having spend so much developer time making up for MSO's abysmal non-native file handling capabilities.

Yorick
12-10-2009, 07:12 PM
The link doesn't work. PJ

Hmm works for me with Firefox.
Try

http://mirror.ece.auckland.ac.nz/openoffice/stable/3.1.1/

the_bogan
12-10-2009, 07:17 PM
I tried Open Office a while ago, but gave up on it, because it didn't do the following things I like to use:

VBA. I use this a bit, but am not aware if there is an open office substitute?

Handling certain text files, namely the ones from the Diablo II game. I cannnot get them to open properly in Open Office. Excel does them fine, as does an old spreadsheet editor I used to use I can't recall. (Lotus 1-2-3?)

Yorick
12-10-2009, 07:22 PM
I started using OpenOffice since version 3, and I've ditched Microsoft Office on all my home computers

I like it because it's free, it does everything that MS Office does (and some things better!) and also because it's multi platform.

I can't use MSO because of it's lack of capability with PDFs, that's a biggy for a lot of people, especially editable PDF forms.


I do however still use Corel Office as well on some machines....
Back when 1.1.3 was around, one of the most commonly requested features was "Reveal Codes" like in WP. I actually tried that feature out in WP and it was very cool.

Jen
12-10-2009, 07:23 PM
Hmm works for me with Firefox.
Try

http://mirror.ece.auckland.ac.nz/openoffice/stable/3.1.1/Your initial link works fine. For Ma & Pa users, seeing a directory page is not usual, so they assume something hasn't worked.

PJ, you want to look for the file with this name in the above link, it's just up from the bottom of the page:

OOo_3.1.1_Win32Intel_install_wJRE_en-US.exe

Last modified:21-Aug-2009 03:37
File size: 150M

Here is a direct link to the file if that makes it easier:
Direct link - click here (http://mirror.ece.auckland.ac.nz/openoffice/stable/3.1.1/OOo_3.1.1_Win32Intel_install_wJRE_en-US.exe) - 150 MB

I wouldn't recommend downloading that file if you are on dialup. :)

Yorick
12-10-2009, 07:36 PM
I tried Open Office a while ago, but gave up on it, because it didn't do the following things I like to use:

VBA. I use this a bit, but am not aware if there is an open office substitute?

It's called star-basic and it's actually very powerful in terms of what it can do. There are quite a few books written about it. Look up Anthony Pitonyak on Lulu. One of the other Masters of OOo Basic is a Kiwi, Ian Laurenson, he's contributed many macros to the repositories. However Novell's version of OOo which you can get from http://go-oo.org handles VBA macros pretty well. There is also a website that has a rather cool setup for converting VBA to OOoBasic here

http://www.business-spreadsheets.com/vba2oo.asp


Handling certain text files, namely the ones from the Diablo II game. I cannnot get them to open properly in Open Office. Excel does them fine, as does an old spreadsheet editor I used to use I can't recall. (Lotus 1-2-3?) Often those sorts of files are created to suit a particular piece of software. If Diablo gives you the opportunity to choose a file type, go for .csv, OOo Calc will handle that just fine

Yorick
12-10-2009, 07:48 PM
Your initial link works fine. For Ma & Pa users, seeing a directory page is not usual, so they assume something hasn't worked.

PJ, you want to look for the file with this name in the above link, it's just up from the bottom of the page:

OOo_3.1.1_Win32Intel_install_wJRE_en-US.exe

Last modified:21-Aug-2009 03:37
File size: 150M

Here is a direct link to the file if that makes it easier:
Direct link - click here (http://mirror.ece.auckland.ac.nz/openoffice/stable/3.1.1/OOo_3.1.1_Win32Intel_install_wJRE_en-US.exe) - 150 MB

I wouldn't recommend downloading that file if you are on dialup. :)

Thanks for that Jen I'll blame senility for not thinking of that. ;)

Sorry PJ, I should have been a bit more specific. With dial-up you're looking at about a ten hour download. If that's an issue there's a local guy in Auckland who sells cds with the latest OOo and a lot of other OpenSource software on. I should add he's nothing to do with me or the OpenOffice.org project, he just happens to own the local domain.

http://openoffice.org.nz and you can buy online

Cheers
Graham

tutaenui
12-10-2009, 08:04 PM
I have used open office at home ever since MS superseded the last decent version of MS works - version 4.5.

bob_doe_nz
12-10-2009, 08:21 PM
I have OO as well as an older version of Office (2000 I think)

I still have a few OO based text files floating in my computer somewhere and I tried twiddling with the PDF import extension from Sun. Needs a lot of work. Inkscape did what I needed.

The PDF export side of things is fine.

Sweep
12-10-2009, 08:31 PM
Office 2007 can turn a word file into a PDF. Will also export to an ODT file as well.

Yorick
12-10-2009, 08:33 PM
Good product, looking forward to OOo 4, it's going really well only bugbear is how much RAM it gobbles up if it's running on startup.

You may be interested to have a look at the Renaissance project, for a look at some of the discussions as to where we're headed.

http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Renaissance

Poppa John
12-10-2009, 08:34 PM
Egads Yorick, is that a skull I see??

Downloading OOo now, thanks. PJ

the_bogan
12-10-2009, 08:43 PM
I tried those links listed above. Just got:

Access denied; you may be trying to access this site from an address that does not correctly resolve to a .nz hostname


Using Telstraclear cable if that helps.

Going to http://download.openoffice.org/other.html#en-US worked okay though.

Yorick
12-10-2009, 08:45 PM
Office 2007 can turn a word file into a PDF.

There are lots of programmes that create PDFs, I was talking about PDF forms. That's a form that you create in OOo, the receiver can open it in Acrobat Reader and then fill in fields that you designate. It also can have radio button form elements and check boxes. Other than OOo only Adobe Acrobat can do that. OOo can also edit PDFs, properly created ones that is, another thing that MSO can't do.


Will also export to an ODT file as well.

At this stage only export, OOo uses "save as" for foreign file formats it can natively edit and export for others. It's a good exercise to save a document in OOo to MS file format such as doc and then export a file to ODF in MSO and see which one translates to the other best. It should in fact be the MSO document because the OOo file format specification is fully open, something that isn't the case for MSO file formats except for rtf. However, I suspect you'll find that OOo does better.

(edit) I forgot to add that MSO 14 will handle ODF natively. ie "Save as". But only because MS was forced to by the European Union

Yorick
12-10-2009, 08:48 PM
Egads Yorick, is that a skull I see??

Downloading OOo now, thanks. PJ

No skull, just a lack of hair, the gene showed itself at a young age, hence the nick. :)

the_bogan
12-10-2009, 09:04 PM
Nice, this new version does work with those .txt files at last.

One gripe though. I have to open windows explorer, right click them and open with calc.
If I select open, within calc, it opens the files with Writer. Is there any way around that?

Also, with Excel, I'm used to hitting End, then an arrow key to get in the direction I go. Is there a similar function in Calc?

Yorick
12-10-2009, 09:09 PM
I have used open office at home ever since MS superseded the last decent version of MS works - version 4.5.

Actually Works was seriously underrated. It was kept an orphan by sticking with a lonely file format.
I had an interesting experience not so long ago with Works that was being used by a client. She was a fan of the Works Database and when the organisation she works for, migrated to OOo she was concerned about a lot of mission critical data that was in her Works Database. I must admit I approached it with a little trepidation having had to deal with Migrating Access databases. However on investigating I found Works exported to dbase which OOo handles natively. Easy. So yes Works had a lot of things going for it as a simple easy to use Office suite, just too bad about the word processor and spreadsheet file formats.

Yorick
12-10-2009, 09:32 PM
Nice, this new version does work with those .txt files at last.

One gripe though. I have to open windows explorer, right click them and open with calc.
If I select open, within calc, it opens the files with Writer. Is there any way around that?
Change the file extension from .txt to .csv and then open with Calc. A window will popup and ask what sort of delimiter. A delimiter is usually either a comma or a space or a colon and carriage returns should hold. Open the txt file in Notepad and see which of the above is between the words that would be in adjacent cells when in a spreadsheet.


Also, with Excel, I'm used to hitting End, then an arrow key to get in the direction I go. Is there a similar function in Calc?

Not sure exactly what you're after but: Hitting "End" will take you to the cell in the last occupied column in a row. The column has to have at least one cell with data in it.
Enter takes you down one cell in a column
Tab takes you right one cell
Ctrl+end will take you to the bottom cell of the last column
Using the arrow keys will move one cell at a time in whatever direction
Holding the Ctrl button down and using the arrows moves you to the next cell that has data in it. In other words it will skip the empty cells.

Hope that helps

Cheers
Graham

Yorick
12-10-2009, 09:46 PM
I have OO as well as an older version of Office (2000 I think)

I still have a few OO based text files floating in my computer somewhere and I tried twiddling with the PDF import extension from Sun. Needs a lot of work. Inkscape did what I needed.

The PDF import extension works in a very specific way. It's efficacy is dependent on how the PDF was created. For instance a while ago I got some forms from Ministry of Social Development. They were obviously scans of forms that were then put into a PDF as an image. Not a lot you can do about that. If the document has been created correctly, with embedded fonts then the import extension will work fine and simply treats each line of text as a section. A good example of properly created documents are those that come from the IRD. Fonts embedded, good layout done simply.


The PDF export side of things is fine.

It is still the best way to send a document to someone, who doesn't need to edit it, but the sender needs to know that it will display exactly as produced and intended.

Tbird650
12-10-2009, 11:50 PM
Fantastic program..... and free as well!
I use the calc spreadsheet to manage data for occasional trademe sales. I notice the slowness at which it launches.
Like any fully featured application it can take a while to get ones' head around all the various functions.
Because I paste some data from trademe into the spreadsheet, I can end up with different font & sizes in the same column. Similar difficulty with date formats.
Perhaps it's a case of finding the right control but of course it all takes time.

FAB
13-10-2009, 09:08 AM
Without wanting to requote myself, I feel that if there was in inbuilt mail client with similar and compatible calendaring features, you would see many a company ditching Office totally.

Poppa John
13-10-2009, 11:03 AM
So I am a bit thick!!!

OOo is installed. What do I do with it now.Should there be a Menu or something? PJ

Agent_24
13-10-2009, 11:10 AM
Look in your start menu under OpenOffice.org 3.1....

On another note - I notice that Renaissance talks about a better UI... I'm not saying that's a bad thing but personally I prefer the Office 2003 style you're using in 3.1

Please leave it there (even as an option) for people like me!

bob_doe_nz
13-10-2009, 11:10 AM
There ought to be a shortcut or folder listing in the start menu.

Yorick
13-10-2009, 11:32 AM
Fantastic program..... and free as well!
I use the calc spreadsheet to manage data for occasional trademe sales. I notice the slowness at which it launches.
Like any fully featured application it can take a while to get ones' head around all the various functions.
Because I paste some data from trademe into the spreadsheet, I can end up with different font & sizes in the same column. Similar difficulty with date formats.
Perhaps it's a case of finding the right control but of course it all takes time.

Have you tried Paste Special > Unformatted text, that's always my first fallback position when copying from webpages. Of course when we're creating webpages the last thing we think about is how it will copy.

Poppa John
13-10-2009, 11:47 AM
Ok. I am IN & rummaging, thanks. PJ

Sweep
13-10-2009, 11:56 AM
So I am a bit thick!!!

OOo is installed. What do I do with it now.Should there be a Menu or something? PJ

Well for a start you will not find something in Open Office like the version of MSPublisher you had when I last looked at your PC.

Don't get me wrong here. I have nothing against Open Office per se.

For most people it will be more than enough. Very much like MSWorks for example which is cheaper than MSOffice but many people find it suits their needs.

Open Office is similar in so far as it suits their needs and has the advantage of being free so it costs less than MSOffice and MSWorks.

A disadvantage is that Open Office is not taught in many schools and also while the software has fans you will not get the same support as you would running MSOffice.

Yorick
13-10-2009, 12:31 PM
Without wanting to requote myself, I feel that if there was in inbuilt mail client with similar and compatible calendaring features, you would see many a company ditching Office totally.

We did look at that some time back and we had a project specifically aimed at that. Unfortunately we couldn't get developers to drive it. Since then the Thunderbird-Lightning combo has become a lot more mature and we have been doing a lot of work with Mozilla to get more integration which you can read about here.

http://www.openoffice.org/editorial/mozilla_lightning_and_OOo.html

wratterus
13-10-2009, 12:52 PM
It's good to have you here Yorick - the info you're giving is very useful. :thumbs:

Yorick
13-10-2009, 01:30 PM
Well for a start you will not find something in Open Office like the version of MSPublisher you had when I last looked at your PC.

If publisher was already installed, installing OOo will not change that. It doesn't affect any programmes already installed and it will happily run alongside any version of MSO.


Don't get me wrong here. I have nothing against Open Office per se. For most people it will be more than enough.

Quite right and in fact when you say most, think 95%. The only people that I have found in a corporate environment that have to stay with MSO are those Power Users, using a vast library of Excell macros that would be too expensive to convert to OOo Basic, everyone else has no problems at all and in fact get better workflow because OOo's greater functionality. Most difficulties simply occur because things are done a little differently, that's when they get trainers in like me.


Very much like MSWorks for example which is cheaper than MSOffice but many people find it suits their needs.

Open Office is similar in so far as it suits their needs and has the advantage of being free so it costs less than MSOffice and MSWorks.

Don't confuse expensive with being good


A disadvantage is that Open Office is not taught in many schools In my opinion, and I'm an Educator, OpenOffice.org should NOT be taught in schools, just like MSO should NOT be taught in schools. What should be taught is Word Processing skills, Electronc spreadsheets, Presentations, Database and so forth. NZQA Unit standards do not specify a particular brand only particular outcomes using Computer software. That means that schools should have any and all applications that will achieve those outcomes.
and also while the software has fans you will not get the same support as you would running MSOffice.

Support for OOo is very good, just on the end of an email: users@openoffice.org
or a forum http://www.oooforum.org or
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/

Download manuals for free from http://documentation.openoffice.org

The difference is the support stays after you've finished at school, it stays free and like the upgrades it's free forever.

Sweep
13-10-2009, 02:28 PM
If publisher was already installed, installing OOo will not change that. It doesn't affect any programmes already installed and it will happily run alongside any version of MSO.



Quite right and in fact when you say most, think 95%. The only people that I have found in a corporate environment that have to stay with MSO are those Power Users, using a vast library of Excell macros that would be too expensive to convert to OOo Basic, everyone else has no problems at all and in fact get better workflow because OOo's greater functionality. Most difficulties simply occur because things are done a little differently, that's when they get trainers in like me.



Don't confuse expensive with being good

In my opinion, and I'm an Educator, OpenOffice.org should NOT be taught in schools, just like MSO should NOT be taught in schools. What should be taught is Word Processing skills, Electronc spreadsheets, Presentations, Database and so forth. NZQA Unit standards do not specify a particular brand only particular outcomes using Computer software. That means that schools should have any and all applications that will achieve those outcomes.

Support for OOo is very good, just on the end of an email: users@openoffice.org
or a forum http://www.oooforum.org or
http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/

Download manuals for free from http://documentation.openoffice.org

The difference is the support stays after you've finished at school, it stays free and like the upgrades it's free forever.

Agreed in principle but my points still remain mostly in my opinion.

OK. A software User installs open office and may expect to get a nice new learning curve like "I used to do CNTRL ALT XYZ to insert ABC but I can't do it now and etc.

A PressF1 member recently downloaded Open Office after you giving a download link and was PJ confused? Of course he was because he had no clue as to which vesion to download and I for one don't blame him.

PJ has now downloaded same and is rummaging so I see.

You make the point that is valid that all schools should have various tools at their disposal and I agree to a certain extent but then to qualify as a teacher in IT one would have to know everything about all operating systems and all flavours thereof and all applications and how to achieve what one individual wants and in my opinion you can't teach that.

The best outcome in my view is to teach people to question and teach them to research.

I did not say expensive is good so please do not put words in my mouth.
In fact I did say that open office is in fact more than what most people need.

Once upon a time I could keep up with developments as to doing a valve grind on a Morris Minor engine. Unfortunately I don't see too many on the road just now so why, if I was in business, to service same and only those ones I may expect a very seldom drive by customer.

Yorick
13-10-2009, 07:36 PM
Agreed in principle but my points still remain mostly in my opinion.

OK. A software User installs open office and may expect to get a nice new learning curve like "I used to do CNTRL ALT XYZ to insert ABC but I can't do it now and etc.
The same applies to any software change/upgrade although most of those sorts of things are the same. However you can customise OOo to suit yourself in any case, but again as you point out that's one of those things on the learning curve.


A PressF1 member recently downloaded Open Office after you giving a download link and was PJ confused? Of course he was because he had no clue as to which vesion to download and I for one don't blame him.

PJ has now downloaded same and is rummaging so I see.

In fact I should have sent him to the OpenOffice.org front page which would have worked out what version he needed and set that download going. But local mirrors are better and with some providers, cheaper in terms of bandwidth. The thing is that PJ is giving it a go and more power to him. If he can overcome the not so steep learning curve then he will always have the latest Office Software package, rather than having to hang on to old out of date software simply because updating to the latest MS offering doesn't fit in the budget.



You make the point that is valid that all schools should have various tools at their disposal and I agree to a certain extent but then to qualify as a teacher in IT one would have to know everything about all operating systems and all flavours thereof and all applications and how to achieve what one individual wants and in my opinion you can't teach that.

The best outcome in my view is to teach people to question and teach them to research.
Amen to that, in student centred teaching environment having all the tools available enables just that. It is not necessary then for an ICT teacher to be skilled at all of them, just know they are available and allow students to experiment.


I did not say expensive is good so please do not put words in my mouth.
I wasn't, I was merely making the statement to counter any subtext that someone reading this may see there. It is an attitude that the OOo community has to constantly counter.


In fact I did say that open office is in fact more than what most people need.

Once upon a time I could keep up with developments as to doing a valve grind on a Morris Minor engine. Unfortunately I don't see too many on the road just now so why, if I was in business, to service same and only those ones I may expect a very seldom drive by customer.

Another of the problems we have to counter is the reason I started this thread. We in fact have little idea how many people are using it. We do have some statistics from around the world.

Market penetration of OpenOffice.org
around 20% world wide, we are No.2. Survey results vary depending on whose paying for it, go figure. :)

Currently higher in the European union
30% + in France
35% in Germany
Spain has several Municipalities and states where it is installed on 100% of public
service desktops including schools
Singapore: 100% on Public Service desktops
UK 20% +
US and Canada around 5%
NZ we have no figures, Gartner doesn't consider us significant enough to survey! :D

However any such surveys have to be suspect in terms of numbers for several reasons
a) There is no reason that someone already using MSO can't have OOo installed as well.
b) MS can track figures because of their licensing system, we can't because anyone can copy it and pass it on to someone else. In fact our research has shown that the average OOo user passes it on 9 times. That's the average of course, some people like Chris McAffey at openoffice.org.nz passes cds on in the hundreds if not thousands and there are many organisations like that around the world. The Indian government distributes Hindi and Tamil NLC versions on CD in lots of 5 million.

The only definite figures we have are for downloads from the OOo servers. Right now that numbers between 250,000 and 300,000 a day

http://marketing.openoffice.org/marketing_bouncer.html

c) OOo's install base outside of Educational institutions is greater
than MSO 07 and 03 combined. Our biggest competition (and we share this with MS according to Balmer) is MSO '97

d) When I'm not doing my MarCon job for OOo (which is unpaid appointment) I consult on migration from MSO to OOo and train endusers for corporate and NFP clients, so I know from personal experience there are a lot more users out there than is obvious.

Yorick
13-10-2009, 07:45 PM
It's good to have you here Yorick - the info you're giving is very useful. :thumbs:

Many thanks, I'd be absolutely rapt if any of my ramblings are at least useful to someone and if I can dispel a few misconceptions at the same time as well as supply a little support to newbies then I'm a happy camper.

:banana

Yorick
14-10-2009, 11:12 AM
I notice that Renaissance talks about a better UI... I'm not saying that's a bad thing but personally I prefer the Office 2003 style you're using in 3.1

Please leave it there (even as an option) for people like me!

The Renaissance project is great, it's part of the UX (User Experience) project. The UX project is one of the newest projects in OOo (there's 100+ projects including the Native Languages). Previously the UX was pretty much the sole responsibility of SUN and so the community didn't get a lot of input beyond submitting issues and RFEs (Request for Enhancement) and hope that stuff got done in the backrooms of Hamburg.

With the Native Mac port coming out in 3.0 however a lot of focus had to go onto the UI because of Mac's strict UIG. Out of that came a little more recognition of UX and we happen to have a few pretty good UX people out in the community and hey presto, we have this really excellent collaboration going on between corporate and community. The advantage is of course, that being an Open Source project you and I can subscribe to the mailing list and put our oar in.

One of the critical factors facing any new UI (and this will be 4.0 at the earliest) at the moment is the increasing preponderance of 16:9 screens, we've designed around 4:3 now for so long that it's going to be a bt of a challenge to make it work while not scaring the users too much. Vertical sidepanes is something that OOo has used for a while and I have stylist and navigator panes docked on the right of my workspace by default in any case.

The guys in china at RedOffice have done some very cool stuff with the interface for theirs, but unfortunately it only works for the CJK language group (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) IBM have added tabbed document interface to Symphony, which is their version of OOo. So there are some interesting hacks going on.

Oh and if you think there's no point in sticking your oar in, I can tell you that the entire OOo website design was driven from and most of the code done in NZ, so people do take notice. There may be 35000+ people subscribed to the lists, but people who are reasoned and make sense always standout.

kjaada
14-10-2009, 11:24 AM
Quote:
Oh and if you think there's no point in sticking your oar in, I can tell you that the entire OOo website design was driven from and most of the code done in NZ, so people do take notice. There may be 35000+ people subscribed to the lists, but people who are reasoned and make sense always standout.
:clap

Sweep
14-10-2009, 11:44 AM
OK Yorick. Your points are well made.

Possibly PJ will come back as satisfied user of Open Office and will stay with it or not.

Agent_24
14-10-2009, 11:58 AM
One of the critical factors facing any new UI (and this will be 4.0 at the earliest) at the moment is the increasing preponderance of 16:9 screens, we've designed around 4:3 now for so long that it's going to be a bt of a challenge to make it work while not scaring the users too much.

That's great but all of my computers (except my laptop) use 17" CRT monitors.

I don't like widescreen for browsing the internet and writing documents. In widescreen it's pointless, all you get is acres of blank space down the sides.

When I do switch to LCD they will most likely be 17" 5:4 anyway...

Yorick
14-10-2009, 12:18 PM
OK Yorick. Your points are well made.

Possibly PJ will come back as satisfied user of Open Office and will stay with it or not.

All I ever ask is that people give it a reasonable chance, I've gone 10 years now without MSO despite polytech tutors trying to get me to do otherwise (Not all, I might add, there are backrooms at Waiariki where you can jump onto Linux machines). I doubt they noticed that all my assignments were done in OOo. :)

Yorick
14-10-2009, 12:32 PM
That's great but all of my computers (except my laptop) use 17" CRT monitors.

I don't like widescreen for browsing the internet and writing documents. In widescreen it's pointless, all you get is acres of blank space down the sides.

When I do switch to LCD they will most likely be 17" 5:4 anyway...

I feel your pain, all my classroom machines are 4:3 LCD and that's not uncommon. Widescreens are unlikely to become the default in the Corporate space and that is the challenge to the UX guys.

However one of the coolest things about OOo in my opinion is being able to add extensions, I run about a dozen extensions on my OOo for clipart, templates, high powered search, maori lang, NZ dictionaries, and so on. I see no reason why we shouldn't be able to plug in the UI of our choice using extensions.

For instance I have a customised version of the OOo UI designed to allow seamless interaction with Adobe InDesign for publishing and advertising companies. It allows reporters and editors to create documents automatically that InDesign can interpret correctly. That could be put up on the extension website along with any number of different UIs designed for specific purposes and functions. It will be interesting

Sweep
14-10-2009, 12:36 PM
All I ever ask is that people give it a reasonable chance, I've gone 10 years now without MSO despite polytech tutors trying to get me to do otherwise (Not all, I might add, there are backrooms at Waiariki where you can jump onto Linux machines). I doubt they noticed that all my assignments were done in OOo. :)

Any person can try and see what works for them.

If it does not work then it is back to plan A possibly.

But you wanted a survey in your first post did you not?

The PressF1 community consists of a number of members and I note that only a few have been interested enough to reply.

For the record I have tried different operating systems and applications.

Yorick
14-10-2009, 03:43 PM
Any person can try and see what works for them. Usually it's not what works for them but what works for others close to them. You mentioned support earlier on and one area of support we find hardest to crack is the circle of friends support. There is a group local to me that has one guy who could be considered a windows guru, he helps people out, hands around hacked copies of MSO and XP and such like and provides easily accessible support for newbies.

That particular circle we can't crack because nobody needs special tools/contacts/skills to download and install OOo, we make it as easy as possible. The problem to the Local Guru of course is that his/her special skills aren't actuallly needed and so we get the "Expensive is better" even if we have to use pirated copies to be able to afford it.

If it does not work then it is back to plan A possibly.
True indeed, what we'd like obviously is for OOo to be Plan A. In new schools now this is becoming more common, the first office suite kids are using is OOo. Albany Senior High school and Mission Heights are good examples of this
But you wanted a survey in your first post did you not?

The PressF1 community consists of a number of members and I note that only a few have been interested enough to reply.

Indeed, I didn't expect much else, if I went to NZOSS mailing list and made the same request I'd get close to a 100% affirmative response. PC World, other than Geoff Palmer and on occasion Juha Saarinen is pretty much a MS only shop and that's going to reflect in the responses because the readership tends to have a Microsoft bent. Then there's the rest of us who skim the geek toys and straight to the Tux Love section! ;)

For the record I have tried different operating systems and applications.

Heh I have a box of OpenSuSE 11.1 DVDs that will run Gnome or KDE live, left over from Software Freedom Day, if you feel in the mood for another play. I'll leave some at the front desk in Grayburn House if you want.

gary67
14-10-2009, 04:47 PM
I run whichever is available at the time, at the moment my main machine is on MS 03 as it came free with this computer, next week I will be moving to Win 7 and have just received the Student deal for MS 07 office, however I also have a couple of spare machines that we all use from time to time for whatever reason and they run OO, so far neither SWMBO or step son have complained about using OO when they hop on the spares, so when the time comes to rebuild their machines that is what will be installed as MS office is just too expensive to buy retail. It simply will come down to cost and not other reason

Erayd
14-10-2009, 06:06 PM
I use OOo exclusively on my own machines, and MSO 2003 or 2007 on machines at work (mainly because it's preinstalled, and I can't be bothered installing another office suite on every PC I use - I'd rather get real work done).

My machines are all Linux, with one dual-booting Windows 7. Windows is there only for FL Studio and for syncing my iPod, and rarely gets used more than once or twice a month. The PCs at work are all Windows XP, although we will be migrating to Windows 7 shortly.

Thoughts on OOo:
One of my most-loved features of OOo (and most hated about MSO because they don't have it) is native PDF export.

A very close second is styles support - MSO 2003 is useless at this, OOo is great at it.

I heard a rumour somewhere that you guys were planning to adopt a similar UI style to MSO 2007 - please for the love of god don't do that. I can't stand it!

Better support for MSO2007 OOXML documents would be great - currently around 50% of the documents I receive in that format have formatting problems when opened in OOo. Most of these are text documents, and all have either been created in MSO 2007, or created in MSO 2003 and then edited in 2007.

If anyone is interested in adding LaTeX support, I would love this, especially if it's compatible with LyX files.

Along similar lines, a WYSIWYM editing mode (rather than WYSIWYG) would be great. It should be optional, as I suspect it would confuse a lot of users, but I personally find this editing style vastly preferable.

OOo is an utter b**** to compile on Gentoo - so much so that there are actually binary packages in the main portage tree. Almost no other package is painful enough to require this treatment. I'd be far happier if your office suite would compile without issues on what could be considered a 'normal' toolchain.

Out of curiosity, how do you count Linux download stats? I was surprised to see that Linux downloads even registered on those graphs, as almost all Linux users would get it via their distro's own repositories.

Finally, thanks for a great office suite!

Yorick
14-10-2009, 06:44 PM
I run whichever is available at the time, at the moment my main machine is on MS 03 as it came free with this computer, next week I will be moving to Win 7 and have just received the Student deal for MS 07 office,
The student deal thing is interesting. It's a really good marketing ploy, AKA a loss leader. The idea is to lock people into an application so that it becomes too difficult to change and then pick up the loss later on when the victim has to pay full price. (Evidence Sweep's comments above) Not that it's a true loss leader of course, if they sold it for ten dollars MS would probably still be making money. This has been recognised in Europe where governments have found themelves at the mercy of a single vendor, so now tenders are created so that the vendor has to cost in an exit strategy. In other words if the client decides to go to another supplier and software, the original tenderer is liable for the cost of migrating all legacy documents. This is one of the reasons that Office 14 will support ODF.

MS uses other similar strategies. A local organisation was gifted $28,000 worth of MS software by MS. It was basically upgrades from XP home to Pro and a number of MSO licenses. This it seems was about $1000 per machine. They were doing training for low income and unemployed people as part of an MSD programme. I pointed out that in terms of actual value to the organisation they would have been better to go with OOo, because then they would have been able to sell cds to their clients. Can't do that with MSO... well not legally anyway. So they would have had all the necessary software for the same as what they paid for the MS offering, and they would have had something to sell at the end of it as well. And then on top of that future upgrades would be free and you'd be able to sell more and the clients get modern up to date software at little more than the cost of the media. Pretty obvious value proposition to me.


however I also have a couple of spare machines that we all use from time to time for whatever reason and they run OO, so far neither SWMBO or step son have complained about using OO when they hop on the spares, so when the time comes to rebuild their machines that is what will be installed as MS office is just too expensive to buy retail. It simply will come down to cost and not other reason But if cost were the only factor then you'd use notepad. What you're talking about is value. OOo is far better value, not just in the short term but the longterm as well.
MS marketing is really good. It's like going to a car yard, there are two new cars identical in most respects.
One is at the back of the yard, it's the best performer, it's far more economical, it's paint job is plain and it hasn't been valeted that well. It's got all the high performance fruit but they're all undercover on the plain unchromed mags and a really good chip and the clean flow exhaust and the guy who tells you all about it is a mechanic but only because you asked.

The second is out front, it performs OK, it's a fuel hog, but it's got a flash paint job, it's been valeted to the max, the Dealership has told the world about this super special flashy thing. It's up on a stand with lights and Banners. Yea it's a bit unreliable but that's OK we've got lot's of mechanics to fix it, and a salesman with lots of smiles and marketing budget..

The difference is the car out back you can drive away for onroad costs, the one up front has a huge price tag.

The question is which one would you take?

gary67
14-10-2009, 08:29 PM
For me the one out back, not always for the reasons you think either. But yes I did buy MS 07 purely because it was cheap and I like to have a mixture of stuff to experiment with I certainly would not have bought it for the full price

Yorick
14-10-2009, 11:36 PM
I use OOo exclusively on my own machines, and MSO 2003 or 2007 on machines at work (mainly because it's preinstalled, and I can't be bothered installing another office suite on every PC I use - I'd rather get real work done).

My machines are all Linux, with one dual-booting Windows 7. Windows is there only for FL Studio and for syncing my iPod, and rarely gets used more than once or twice a month. The PCs at work are all Windows XP, although we will be migrating to Windows 7 shortly.

Thoughts on OOo:



One of my most-loved features of OOo (and most hated about MSO because they don't have it) is native PDF export.

Agreed, the PDF form handling is to me the Killer feature. Corporates doing forms that need to go to clients for data input are daft using Word for that. A two page conference registration form for instance, two to three hours in Word doing all the protected fields and so on, literally 10 to fifteen minutes in Writer and export to PDF.


A very close second is styles support - MSO 2003 is useless at this, OOo is great at it.

One of the big problems with the Word being taught in schools is the result is a generation of users who format on the fly, because of this very thing, the most difficult thing for people to come to terms with in OOo is Stylist


I heard a rumour somewhere that you guys were planning to adopt a similar UI style to MSO 2007 - please for the love of god don't do that. I can't stand it!

All sorts of ideas get thrown around when you're in the process we are at the moment, it's another of those advantages of OpenSource, everyone get's a hearing which is one of the disadvantages from a marketing guys point of view, nothing is secret. Very hard to have the big splashy reveal of the wonderful new features when it's all been discussed in public in any case. However, that one got shot down fast, it's proved to be a double edge sword for MS, newbies like it, but the powerusers hate it and so corporates have stuck with '97, XP & 2K. Steve Balmer at last years Partners conference I think it was made the point that '97 was the biggest barrier to uptake of '07. Certainly in my business the vast majority of Migrations I work on are from MSO '97, it was a good piece of gear in it's time, people didn't give it up easily and it's license was not so confusing.


Better support for MSO2007 OOXML documents would be great - currently around 50% of the documents I receive in that format have formatting problems when opened in OOo. Most of these are text documents, and all have either been created in MSO 2007, or created in MSO 2003 and then edited in 2007.

May I recommend the Novell version of OOo. Our problem is that MSO '07 does not comply with the OOXML spec published as ECMA 375, even MS has said that it is unlikely that Office 14 will use it as it's native format, but Novell have been doing some excellent interoperability stuff with MS, and that is reflected in their version getting the compatibility stuff earlier than the core.

Get that at http://go-oo.org


If anyone is interested in adding LaTeX support, I would love this, especially if it's compatible with LyX files.
There is a Latex extension called OOoLatex. I haven't used it but it's had 53000 downloads from the Extensions site, so something must be right with it.


Along similar lines, a WYSIWYM editing mode (rather than WYSIWYG) would be great. It should be optional, as I suspect it would confuse a lot of users, but I personally find this editing style vastly preferable.
I only just got introduced to Lyx myself just recently and I have to say I like it. It's just having your styles visible, I'd say it's unlikely in the main core but as an extension...



OOo is an utter b**** to compile on Gentoo - so much so that there are actually binary packages in the main portage tree. Almost no other package is painful enough to require this treatment. I'd be far happier if your office suite would compile without issues on what could be considered a 'normal' toolchain.

And here I thought that self flagellation was part of the Gentoo creed ;) But seriously jump on the dev@openoffice.org list or on IRC Freenode #openoffice.org and put your oar in


Out of curiosity, how do you count Linux download stats? I was surprised to see that Linux downloads even registered on those graphs, as almost all Linux users would get it via their distro's own repositories. True but then when the Ubuntu version screws up (which it does on a reasonably regular basis cos they can't stop them selves from hacking with it), the Ubuntuites come to the users list and we say download and install the real one!:) Also the fact is that the Distro version tend to be a a point version or two behind the core one and some people just like to have the latest and then you have people like me who just has to have the latest bleeding edge developer version just so I can find a really cool bug to post on issuezilla! :D Unfortunately that's a bit like Lotto, someone else always get's there first. But those stats on the Bouncer stats graph don't include the versions shipped with distributions or downloaded from go-oo.org or restricted mirrors like AU.


Finally, thanks for a great office suite!

Thank the community, 35000 on the maillists, 1200 with CVS access and the corporate partners like Sun, Novell, IBM, Canonical. It's the people and the community that make it what it is no doubt, even those in the Klingon Native language Project. :D

Yorick
14-10-2009, 11:57 PM
For me the one out back, not always for the reasons you think either. But yes I did buy MS 07 purely because it was cheap and I like to have a mixture of stuff to experiment with I certainly would not have bought it for the full price

Me too, but most people don't, they can't see past the flash and the sell and if it's cheap there's something wrong with it. That's not thinking about it correctly. As I stated earlier, it's about value, not cost. Corporates always talk about value propositions, but rarely in the IT department, mostly they think, "Noone ever got fired for buying Microsoft" :)

One of the other things we have to battle is; if a company spends hundreds of thousands of dollars buying MS product, then the guy/department who authorised that purchase is going to go out of their way to make it work because their arse is on the line for that cheque. If however they get OOo into the system, there is not the same pressure to make it work, it's easier to blame the software and toss it out because, after all it was cheap.

Recently a nationwide corporate that had OOo all through their system. They upgraded to 3.0. Just after this a new CIO arrived who was a Microsoftie, he chucked out the OOo and wrote out a check for MSO licences. Can you imagine him doing it the other way round, just after upgrade to the latest MSO, he tosses it out and puts in OOo. :eek:

bob_doe_nz
15-10-2009, 12:05 AM
If you're intending on adopting the ribbon style menu in the next major release, is there an option for that so we can still have the old classic menu?

Yorick
15-10-2009, 01:11 AM
If you're intending on adopting the ribbon style menu in the next major release, is there an option for that so we can still have the old classic menu?
As I noted to Erayd, although that got suggested, it got shot down pretty fast. My hope is that the standard interface will stay as is with a bit of titivating and then Different UI styles can be had by using an extension, that will cater for differing screen ratios and use patterns. I can say that there will probably be side panes, but it's very early days yet. Impress is the only app the guys have prototyped thus far

Yorick
13-11-2009, 12:09 AM
It's good to note that there must be quite a few out there using it.
Last week saw the download counter on the OOo bouncers pass 100 million downloads since the launch of 3.0. Woohoo!


:banana :D :clap

beeswax34
13-11-2009, 02:14 AM
I wonder how many people actually keep using it though? Plenty of people download Norton or get it given but how many actually keep using it? (Too many but I digress)

Tbird650
13-11-2009, 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tbird650
Fantastic program..... and free as well!
I use the calc spreadsheet to manage data for occasional trademe sales. I notice the slowness at which it launches.
Like any fully featured application it can take a while to get ones' head around all the various functions.
Because I paste some data from trademe into the spreadsheet, I can end up with different font & sizes in the same column. Similar difficulty with date formats.
Perhaps it's a case of finding the right control but of course it all takes time.

Have you tried Paste Special > Unformatted text, that's always my first fallback position when copying from webpages. Of course when we're creating webpages the last thing we think about is how it will copy.
Paste special didn't fix it for me, but what else it does is randomly it will change the total of a column to: ###
Each time I wrestle with it because I have forgotten how I got to the fix but if I poke around enough, eventually I rectify it.... till next time.
Some times I paste from trademe.... other times I manual type the data.
Could there be a way to force the entire column to always have the correct format?
I start from a template I made and the figures get added over a period of time and with numerous restarts of the program.
I guess if I use the prog day in - day out, I'd pick up on the why's and whynots. Still, if any reader can throw some light onto this situation it would be fantastic.
Great programs! Fantastic work.

Roger Hunt
13-11-2009, 01:10 PM
I use it for all my doc's except for quick notes where I use Notepad
I use it because its not Microsofts

tuiruru
13-11-2009, 04:09 PM
Hi

I'd like to see a solution (which can be turned on (default) or off as desired) in calc to the followinf scenario with relative formulae - after all, if you delete rows the formulae get "tidied up":

I've set up a simple spreadsheet for my monthly budget. In columns D, E and F I'm going to put Withdrawals, Deposits and Balance. Assuming that the entry for the first day of each month will be in row 5, in F6 to get the balance thus far I can enter the formula =F5-D6+E6 and then fill this down. However if an unexpected deposit or balance comes in I need to insert an extra row and enter the new data – assume I do this on row 12. At the moment when I do that the the cell F12 is now devoid of a formula so I have to go back to F11 and fill that formula down for the rest of the month, which seems a waste of time (imagine I had done it at row 12 of 2000 rows!!). Is there any way of getting the relative formula to appear automatically in the newly inserted row and thus be reflected in all the rows beneath it without filling it down manually?

Thanks

johnd
13-11-2009, 09:12 PM
I have been using OO ever since it came out (and StarOffice before that). One of the biggest pluses fro me is that it is cross platform - I use it on MSWindows @work and Linux at home.

johnd
13-11-2009, 09:24 PM
True but then when the Ubuntu version screws up (which it does on a reasonably regular basis cos they can't stop them selves from hacking with it), the Ubuntuites come to the users list and we say download and install the real one!:)

I am using the Ubuntu version with absolutely no issues - have more issues running under Vista at work.

tuiruru
14-11-2009, 11:56 AM
Another little trick I'd like is to be able to go "Save As" and have it suggest the first line of text as the document title.

Lurking
14-11-2009, 12:19 PM
Daughter used it on our laptop to do her BA in microbiology.

It's still sitting on it, but wife has another pc with Office 2000 on it.

This pc has Microsoft Office XP student ver. on which she finalised her study

Lurking.

Sweep
14-11-2009, 12:37 PM
Another little trick I'd like is to be able to go "Save As" and have it suggest the first line of text as the document title.

Like MS office already does.

the_bogan
14-11-2009, 12:53 PM
Hi

I'd like to see a solution (which can be turned on (default) or off as desired) in calc to the followinf scenario with relative formulae - after all, if you delete rows the formulae get "tidied up":

I've set up a simple spreadsheet for my monthly budget. In columns D, E and F I'm going to put Withdrawals, Deposits and Balance. Assuming that the entry for the first day of each month will be in row 5, in F6 to get the balance thus far I can enter the formula =F5-D6+E6 and then fill this down. However if an unexpected deposit or balance comes in I need to insert an extra row and enter the new data – assume I do this on row 12. At the moment when I do that the the cell F12 is now devoid of a formula so I have to go back to F11 and fill that formula down for the rest of the month, which seems a waste of time (imagine I had done it at row 12 of 2000 rows!!). Is there any way of getting the relative formula to appear automatically in the newly inserted row and thus be reflected in all the rows beneath it without filling it down manually?

Thanks

I think I know how to solve this in excel, using macros, but no idea how to in OO.

Rather than drag all your cells down, does double clicking the bottom right corner work in OO like it does in excel?

Yorick
15-11-2009, 11:26 PM
Paste special didn't fix it for me, but what else it does is randomly it will change the total of a column to: ###

That's the cue saying: "Column not wide enough for cell content" right click on the top of the column, not the cell, the box with the column letter in it. then click "Optimal column width" I usually set mine for 0.2, but whatever suits. same principle works for row height as well



Each time I wrestle with it because I have forgotten how I got to the fix but if I poke around enough, eventually I rectify it.... till next time.
Some times I paste from trademe.... other times I manual type the data.
Could there be a way to force the entire column to always have the correct format?I start from a template I made and the figures get added over a period of time and with numerous restarts of the program.
I guess if I use the prog day in - day out, I'd pick up on the why's and whynots. Still, if any reader can throw some light onto this situation it would be fantastic.
Great programs! Fantastic work.

There is an extension that you can use to force formatting. It is a bit of a sledgehammer but it is useful all the same. get it here (http://extensions.services.openoffice.org/project/templatechanger). I haven't tried it with Calc but used it a lot in writer. I'd be interested to hear how it goes.

Yorick
15-11-2009, 11:36 PM
Another little trick I'd like is to be able to go "Save As" and have it suggest the first line of text as the document title.

I've actually had that request before from people used to using Office 95, 97 etc, which do that by default. However it's not good file management practice which is why I don't like it. However you can create a macro to do that if you absolutely need it. Personally I'd prefer it to default to creators name then numerical date form (yyyymmdd) then a sequential number. Much easier to search and archive.

Yorick
15-11-2009, 11:50 PM
I wonder how many people actually keep using it though?

Hard to say, because stats are hard to come by, but then a similar sort of instance occurs with MS in their bulk licensing. For instance in schools it used to work that MinEdu had to pay for MSO licenses for every machine in the school even if you weren't using it or even couldn't use it. So that would inflate their numbers


Plenty of people download Norton or get it given but how many actually keep using it? (Too many but I digress) but then as I said in an earlier post OOo users can copy the software and hand it on and many do.... can't do that with Norton or at least people don't tend to.

Tbird650
16-11-2009, 01:40 AM
"Optimal column width" Thanks, that fixed it. Am absolutely wrapped. Will try the extension out soon.:thumbs:

Yorick
16-11-2009, 10:26 AM
Originally Posted by tuiruru
Hi

I'd like to see a solution (which can be turned on (default) or off as desired) in calc to the followinf scenario with relative formulae - after all, if you delete rows the formulae get "tidied up":

I've set up a simple spreadsheet for my monthly budget. In columns D, E and F I'm going to put Withdrawals, Deposits and Balance. Assuming that the entry for the first day of each month will be in row 5, in F6 to get the balance thus far I can enter the formula =F5-D6+E6 and then fill this down. However if an unexpected deposit or balance comes in I need to insert an extra row and enter the new data – assume I do this on row 12. At the moment when I do that the the cell F12 is now devoid of a formula so I have to go back to F11 and fill that formula down for the rest of the month, which seems a waste of time (imagine I had done it at row 12 of 2000 rows!!). Is there any way of getting the relative formula to appear automatically in the newly inserted row and thus be reflected in all the rows beneath it without filling it down manually?


This is the work-around that I would use: right click on the row header so that a row with all the formulas is selected and copy,
insert row in the normal manner and then
right click on the row header and select paste
Then overwrite any pasted data in the data cells

To avoid cockups if I knew this would happen regularly, I would maintain a row with formulas but no data so I could copy it easily

Yorick
16-11-2009, 02:08 PM
This is the work-around that I would use: right click on the row header so that a row with all the formulas is selected and copy,
insert row in the normal manner and then
right click on the row header and select paste
Then overwrite any pasted data in the data cells

To avoid cockups if I knew this would happen regularly, I would maintain a row with formulas but no data so I could copy it easily

There is another method which just occurred to me which is probably easier, right click on a row with all the formulas you want and click copy, then right click and paste special. In the dialogue uncheck "Paste All" and leave just Formulas and formats checked. Click the the "Shift Cells - down" Radio button and then OK. That will add another row with formulas and formatting intact

tuiruru
16-11-2009, 05:42 PM
Sorry if this is a bit long winded but I thought the people that made suggestions deserved some feedback.

Thanks for the replies I've had about my formulae scenario. I actually posted this in the CALC section of the OOo forum and it's the only post that I've done there that hasn't got a resolution. A guy called Villeroy suggested that he had written a Python script that could do the job but warned that Python seemed to be “broken” (he's apparently from Germany) (Yorick do you know why it's broken?)in OOo 3and it didn't work and he hasn't replied to my further queries.

Maybe my reference to 2000 rows clouded the issue a bit – it was merely to point out that if you're doing the same thing over and over on a computer then there is probably a better way of doing it and thus highlighting 1988 rows below row 12 was a bit of a waste. So, Yorick, your couple of suggestions don't really work for me (unless I am misunderstanding them). Certainly, in the second one, in my spreadsheet, it did copy the formula but did not take care of the relative address ie if I created a new row 5 the actual formula from row 4 was copied.

The best work around to date (which I will post on my thread on the OOo forum) comes from the little “trick” in Excel (which I wasn't aware of) that The Bogan alluded to (so thanks to you mate).

Here it is -remember the formula I am working with is in, say, C4, =C3-A4+B4 (ie BALANCE=PREVIOUS BALANCE-DEBIT+CREDIT) and that would be filled down for say 20 rows. So, I insert a new row above row 11 and enter a new debit in column A. Provided I then enter a zero in column B I can then go to any cell in column C above the new row, double click on the little box in the bottom right hand corner, and it will copy the formula down until it hits a row with a blank data cell in it. I thought that having to put the zero in was a bit of a pain but it makes sense cos it stops the formula being copied into the data that might be the following month's transactions.

I hope that's understandable – it's not a perfect solution but on the way to it?

tuiruru
16-11-2009, 05:47 PM
I've actually had that request before from people used to using Office 95, 97 etc, which do that by default. However it's not good file management practice which is why I don't like it. However you can create a macro to do that if you absolutely need it. Personally I'd prefer it to default to creators name then numerical date form (yyyymmdd) then a sequential number. Much easier to search and archive.

Yeah, I know, but for us non power users it would still be a nice option! After all, you can't let M$ Office get one over on you!

Yorick
17-11-2009, 02:56 AM
Sorry if this is a bit long winded but I thought the people that made suggestions deserved some feedback.

Thanks for the replies I've had about my formulae scenario. I actually posted this in the CALC section of the OOo forum and it's the only post that I've done there that hasn't got a resolution. A guy called Villeroy suggested that he had written a Python script that could do the job but warned that Python seemed to be “broken” (he's apparently from Germany) (Yorick do you know why it's broken?)in OOo 3and it didn't work and he hasn't replied to my further queries.

Maybe my reference to 2000 rows clouded the issue a bit – it was merely to point out that if you're doing the same thing over and over on a computer then there is probably a better way of doing it and thus highlighting 1988 rows below row 12 was a bit of a waste. So, Yorick, your couple of suggestions don't really work for me (unless I am misunderstanding them). Certainly, in the second one, in my spreadsheet, it did copy the formula but did not take care of the relative address ie if I created a new row 5 the actual formula from row 4 was copied.

The best work around to date (which I will post on my thread on the OOo forum) comes from the little “trick” in Excel (which I wasn't aware of) that The Bogan alluded to (so thanks to you mate).

Here it is -remember the formula I am working with is in, say, C4, =C3-A4+B4 (ie BALANCE=PREVIOUS BALANCE-DEBIT+CREDIT) and that would be filled down for say 20 rows. So, I insert a new row above row 11 and enter a new debit in column A. Provided I then enter a zero in column B I can then go to any cell in column C above the new row, double click on the little box in the bottom right hand corner, and it will copy the formula down until it hits a row with a blank data cell in it. I thought that having to put the zero in was a bit of a pain but it makes sense cos it stops the formula being copied into the data that might be the following month's transactions.

Heh, I'm obviously a bit thick, I see the problem now. Is there any reason why it is necessary to maintain a balance following each entry rather than having a single current balance reference. If for instance you ran a running total at the bottom of your Debit and credit columns then Current Balance would be Opening balance(absolute reference) plus Credit total minus Debit total. This would mean that you could reference a single cell for current balance. A bit like the attachment. This means also there is only two relative references and you're not having to paste formulas and it's easy to keep track of your current balance if you get to the fabled 2000 rows. :)




I hope that's understandable – it's not a perfect solution but on the way to it? Likewise I hope I got it right.

Yorick
17-11-2009, 03:14 AM
Yeah, I know, but for us non power users it would still be a nice option! After all, you can't let M$ Office get one over on you!

Heh, there are too many things I can't do in MSO that I can do in OOo that are significant to make me worry about it. We don't copy MSO, MSO copies us, MSO 07 has PDF export I think, certainly Office 14 does. OOo has had that since 2002. MSO 14 will support Open Standards, OOo's file format was an ISO standard several years before MS tried to get ISO approval. OOo has supported multiple vendors file formats since day one, while MS could only cope with it's own. MSOffice is in many ways an inferior product, but with a multi billion dollar marketing machine behind it. OOo has No marketing budget to speak of and yet we still manage 100 million downloads and an accelerating market share, so copying MS is far from our minds.

We have looked at the first line file save option in the past but decided it wasn't worth valuable developer hours. It could however be developed as an extension if anyone felt strong enough about it.

MongooseRoadkill
17-11-2009, 05:24 PM
I use it on both my machines. It would be nice if it was less RAM hungry and started up a bit faster but otherwise I think it is a very capable competitor to MS Office. :D

Agent_24
17-11-2009, 10:48 PM
There are some things I don't like about OpenOffice (the fact it relies on Java being the top one) BUT taking into account that performance is still very good and the fact that it's free..... it really kicks Microsoft Office out of the window.

Nice to have something this good that you didn't have to bother pirating ;)

Yorick
18-11-2009, 08:55 AM
I use it on both my machines. It would be nice if it was less RAM hungry and started up a bit faster but otherwise I think it is a very capable competitor to MS Office. :D

There are a few little tricks that you can do to make it perform a little better in that department. -Tools>Options>OpenOffice.org>Memory- has a few tuning items that can reduce this. Cut down on the undo steps. Reduce image cache. In the linux installer you can install without "Testtools" and "OOoimprovement" and I'm pretty sure that's available in the Windows "Custom Install". Obviously we'd prefer you kept those going but if you're on a pretty lowspec machine then it's probably not a bad idea.

Sweep
19-11-2009, 10:05 PM
Is there a 64 bit version?

Agent_24
19-11-2009, 10:44 PM
Not that I know of, at least not for Windows anyway

Yorick
24-11-2009, 04:38 PM
Is there a 64 bit version?

There are 64 bit ports for Linux, OSX and SPARC, but not for Windows.

Sir Prospect
24-11-2009, 08:06 PM
Open Office convert, loving the instant PDF creation...

64 bit edition for windows would be nice though.. kicks MS A**

Erayd
24-11-2009, 08:53 PM
Just as a brief aside, three cheers to Yorick - it's great to have a certified OOo guru around these parts :thumbs:

ad_267
24-11-2009, 08:56 PM
I've been using OO.o for a while now. It came with my PC I bought from PB Technologies about 5 or 6 years ago. I use it on Linux at home and Linux and Windows at Uni. I use LaTeX for all my reports now but still use OpenOffice quite often. My parents use it a lot on their computer running Ubuntu.

Yorick
25-11-2009, 12:46 PM
Just as a brief aside, three cheers to Yorick - it's great to have a certified OOo guru around these parts :thumbs:


Heh, 3 cheers for PC World for providing a platform for getting the message out. If I manage to help people out and introduce OOo to a wider audience in the process then it's all good. :)

wainuitech
25-11-2009, 01:34 PM
Heh, 3 cheers for PC World for providing a platform for getting the message out. If I manage to help people out and introduce OOo to a wider audience in the process then it's all good. :) Just read the complete thread.
Up front, I'm the Marketing Contact for OpenOffice.org in NZ Just as well Open Office is free other wise its the biggest :spam post I have seen.

One problem is many people dont like change, and while open office has its place, its not easy for some people to change habits.

I find most of my clients that use open office only use it because its free. I have had MANY people and some businesses call and ask to install MS office simply because they dont like Open Office for various reasons.One being lack of easy to find help - people dont want to spend hours / days looking for help.

Chilling_Silence
25-11-2009, 01:49 PM
Yes I think local paid support would be cool

Again I'd like to echo the sentiments expressed by Erayd, and welcome Yorick to the forums, hopefully you'll stay a regular :) It's always great to see vendors getting involved in the online community in a non-spammy, supportive way!

My 2c anyways


Chill.

convair
25-11-2009, 01:58 PM
I have tried Open Office and thought it wasn't to my liking. I'm used to the layout and the look of MS Office. There will be some who find Open Office suitable for their requirements and there are those who have always used MS Office and will probably stick with what they know how to use.

Chilling_Silence
25-11-2009, 03:08 PM
Kind of a moot point when you consider the change from Office 2003 -> Office 2007 with the Ribbon Interface. What matters is what is the easiest interface to become re-accustomed to ;)

Yorick
25-11-2009, 04:16 PM
Just read the complete thread. Just as well Open Office is free other wise its the biggest :spam post I have seen.

:lol: I'm always careful to try not to cross the line... that's of course if I could find it.


One problem is many people dont like change, and while open office has its place, its not easy for some people to change habits.
Amen to that, usually the reason that people first think about change is because of the cost factor but the reason they go and stay with it is only when they find it performs a function that their present suite doesn't. That's usually when I come into the mix.


I find most of my clients that use open office only use it because its free.
:) From a marketing guys point of view I wish it WASN'T cost-free. As I pointed out earlier I think, Migrating away from OOo is also cost-free whereas organisations tend to think twice about doing away with something that has had a large establishment cost attached to it. I would prefer to have a situation where a support business charged an up front per seat cost for Enterprise users to limit that.

One recurring frustration I have is small High street retailers put OOo on machines they sell for free. I sit down with them and tally up the time they put into the install, the first contact support, download bandwidth cost and so on and the absolute minimum they should be charging is around the $60 mark and in fact the figure should be closer to $120. They usually say "I didn't know I could charge for it." The News is of course that Yes you can charge for it, as much as you feel your market can stand. Wack it on with a 30 day basic support package or whatever. Start doing that and I believe we'd get even more traction. But I don't believe we make that as well known as we should.


I have had MANY people and some businesses call and ask to install MS office simply because they dont like Open Office for various reasons.One being lack of easy to find help -

The help is there but again, we don't do it as well as we should in terms of getting the word out, there's no doubt about that. From a project perspective we would love to have training partners scattered all about the country and then we could tell people about it on the main website. Unfortunately we don't have the marketing budget to support the partners like MS does. (and ups to them they do a good job on that front)


....people dont want to spend hours / days looking for help.

if we could get people thinking "Type OOo Support" into google we'd be one step closer. http://support.openoffice.org is right at the top of the list. Problem is Telephone support is lacking, but of course the biggy, as I iterated earlier, is peer support and that only comes with market penetration.

Yorick
25-11-2009, 04:31 PM
Yes I think local paid support would be coolI have broached that with some local businesses, but it's a chicken and egg situation. Not enough users to support a full time support desk, and no support means users stay away. Any business deciding to set something up would have to budget a first year loss at least. The problem for larger enterprises is, like dealing in any open source product, there is no exclusivity. All the manuals can be downloaded for free so they figure the barrier to entry for others into the market is low, of course it's not quite as simple as that, there is a considerable training cost to establish a good support structure.


Again I'd like to echo the sentiments expressed by Erayd, and welcome Yorick to the forums, hopefully you'll stay a regular :) It's always great to see vendors getting involved in the online community in a non-spammy, supportive way!

My 2c anyways


Chill.

Hey I get get to prattle on about my favourite obsession, can't be all bad! :D

wainuitech
25-11-2009, 10:24 PM
I'm always careful to try not to cross the line... that's of course if I could find it. Thats a worry , not being able to find the line, helps if its not moving all the time I spose :p :lol:

I see Open Office its not immune to virus attacks either - shame as that would be a plus over MS Office..

just finished scanning a customers PC, had the Virut.56 virus - heres what it does:
Virut spreads through every .exe, .dll and .scr and other critical files on a computer. It's polymorphic, which means it spreads faster than any antivirus can contain it. 99.99% of the time the only solution is a reformat and reinstall. Virut is so aggressive it even re-infects infected files with itself. It's a computer killer...
Infected Open Office as well as just about every other program file in the PC. When it was scanning I saw open Office xxxxxxxxx ( file name) infected.

So back on the Open Office, Can I assume its still open to attack from macro style viruses, or as I saw BASIC, I did look and found
The OpenOffice.org macros are written in OpenOffice.org BASIC, a macro language that uses the same programming logic as Microsoft Visual Basic. However, some elements differ, as for example the calls to software commands and object names. So you would have to rewrite the macros. Macros written for MS Word for instance cannot be executed via OpenOffice.org; you'll need to re-write them. This has its benefits - it makes OOo documents less virus prone. ???????

Chilling_Silence
26-11-2009, 07:11 AM
The symptom of the OOo exe being infected is more a flaw of the OS than the software which got infected mind you ;)

Virus attacks from macros embedded into .doc files on the other hand, it's less susceptible than some of the paid alternatives are :D

wainuitech
26-11-2009, 08:25 AM
The symptom of the OOo exe being infected is more a flaw of the OS than the software which got infected mind you ;)

Virus attacks from macros embedded into .doc files on the other hand, it's less susceptible than some of the paid alternatives are :D


I Know all that :thumbs: The only reason I even mentioned Open office and the infections, is the owner and prob a lot of other people are under a false sense of security.

A friend of hers that uses Linux had told her it wasn't possible to have open office damaged by viruses. The friend uses Open office in Ubuntu, so they thought that open Office in windows would be safe as well. Now they know different.

Chilling_Silence
26-11-2009, 08:50 AM
Good point... though education of the masses of "damaged by a virus" and "allowed in a virus" is another matter altogether ;)

asdex
26-11-2009, 11:51 AM
Would like to use it all the time but the start up time to create a document is too long.

Yorick
26-11-2009, 01:03 PM
Thats a worry , not being able to find the line, helps if its not moving all the time I spose :p :lol:

I see Open Office its not immune to virus attacks either - shame as that would be a plus over MS Office..

just finished scanning a customers PC, had the Virut.56 virus - heres what it does: Infected Open Office as well as just about every other program file in the PC. When it was scanning I saw open Office xxxxxxxxx ( file name) infected.

So back on the Open Office, Can I assume its still open to attack from macro style viruses, or as I saw BASIC, I did look and found

The OpenOffice.org macros are written in OpenOffice.org BASIC, a macro language that uses the same programming logic as Microsoft Visual Basic. However, some elements differ, as for example the calls to software commands and object names. So you would have to rewrite the macros. Macros written for MS Word for instance cannot be executed via OpenOffice.org; you'll need to re-write them. This has its benefits - it makes OOo documents less virus prone.
???????

It is more secure, however I don't think there is such a thing as completely virus immune software. Macros are an issue in that people for a long time have requested that OOo be capable of running MS Macros. Novells version (go-oo.org) has very good compatibility with MS Macros but of course that comes with the attendant security issues. OOo will not normally run Macros automatically for the attendant security reasons even if they are set to run automatically in a document or spreadsheet or whatever.

As Chill says it's more an operating system issue than anything but by the same token we treat security very seriously. There is an OOo Security Project and you can read about it all at their wiki page (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Security)

gary67
26-11-2009, 06:53 PM
Would like to use it all the time but the start up time to create a document is too long.

I use it on my spare machine but not on my main machine for this very reason startup is too slow

Yorick
27-11-2009, 05:05 AM
I use it on my spare machine but not on my main machine for this very reason startup is too slow Do you mind me asking which version? and on what OS? On my machine OOo 3.2 starts in under five seconds, around about the same time as Firefox, OOo is slightly faster I think but that may be my biases showing ;).

If you have the quickstarter installed that helps. We often used to get this complaint, but not so much since the release of 3.1. We have made a significant effort to speed up the start up for windows users over the years. The slow start up is a factor of the monolithic nature of OOo. Unlike MSO, OOo is a single application with various interfaces. The most obvious flag for this is the availability of every application from the file menu. So it's the same as starting Word, Excell, Access, powerpoint and visio all at the same time.

With OOo once you've opened one application all the rest start pretty much instantly.

Also there are some debugging packages that you can leave out of an install that helps.

Yorick
05-12-2009, 04:53 AM
Would like to use it all the time but the start up time to create a document is too long.


I use it on my spare machine but not on my main machine for this very reason startup is too slow

You'll be pleased to know that we have been listening... Benchmarks for 3.2 (due for release very soon) are on this page. (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Performance/Report/Perfomrance_Report_for_Startup)

The test was run on a standard machine
CPU: Intel P4 3.0G
RAM: 1G
OS: Windows XP SP3 with prefetch on

Paul.Cov
05-12-2009, 09:56 PM
It's good to have you here Yorick - the info you're giving is very useful. :thumbs:

100% agreement here!

Yorick, your knowledge is a treasure, and I'm reading this entire thread to learn your gems... only then will I add my own comments re OOo

xyz823
05-12-2009, 10:25 PM
Office 2007 works for me and it's also used in most Education facilities.

LOL my school still uses 2003. I know quite a few that still do.

Paul.Cov
05-12-2009, 10:40 PM
Well firstly, I'm glad to know I'm not alone in hating the MSO ribbon... I thought my difficulty with it was a sign I was getting too long in the tooth... but instead the suggestion here is the more flattering slant that I am a 'power user'... oooooh! :/

Anyway, we use OOo on all the machines at work, and it's a reasonably large corporation across NZ and Aus. Biggest issue I have with that is the security that is in place often means we can't even open some files (or move or delete them) after we have saved them, but that is an OS and a corporate security issue.

My own personal use however has been limited by the inability to use 'action queries' in Base as opposed to the easy use in MSAccess - I do heaps in Access, but would dearly love to migrate forever to Linux and OOo.
For me to migrate, I need an easier path towards coding macros and action queries in Base. The MSAccess equivalents being queries that can Update / Delete / Append / MakeTable being my key requirements.

Yorick
07-12-2009, 03:57 PM
Well firstly, I'm glad to know I'm not alone in hating the MSO ribbon... I thought my difficulty with it was a sign I was getting too long in the tooth... but instead the suggestion here is the more flattering slant that I am a 'power user'... oooooh! :/

Anyway, we use OOo on all the machines at work, and it's a reasonably large corporation across NZ and Aus. Biggest issue I have with that is the security that is in place often means we can't even open some files (or move or delete them) after we have saved them, but that is an OS and a corporate security issue.

My own personal use however has been limited by the inability to use 'action queries' in Base as opposed to the easy use in MSAccess - I do heaps in Access, but would dearly love to migrate forever to Linux and OOo.
For me to migrate, I need an easier path towards coding macros and action queries in Base. The MSAccess equivalents being queries that can Update / Delete / Append / MakeTable being my key requirements.

I'm afraid I have to confess to being a Database dunce. I do know the biggest difference is that Access only uses one Database: MS Jet, whereas Base can use a number of SQL database backends such as MySQL, postgresql, Oracle and so on. Better info from the experts Here (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/MSA-Base_Faq)

PENTIUM
07-12-2009, 04:09 PM
At home and installed for many of my clients, very useful for those who need the foreign language dictionaries. It enables others to open Word 2007 Email attachments without having to outlay, to Microsoft, for something they otherwise do not need to update.
I also understand SeniorNet Wellington is running a few Open Office lessons over the New Year.

Yorick
07-12-2009, 05:20 PM
At home and installed for many of my clients, very useful for those who need the foreign language dictionaries. It enables others to open Word 2007 Email attachments without having to outlay, to Microsoft, for something they otherwise do not need to update.
I also understand SeniorNet Wellington is running a few Open Office lessons over the New Year.
That's good to hear, I've done presentations to various SeniorNet groups, the biggest barrier to uptake for them was the easy availability of Training materials like the "Made Easy" series on OOo. I steered them in the direction of Solvieg Haugland's Site (http://getopenoffice.org/workbooks.html) and learnopenoffice.org (http://learnopenoffice.org/tutorials.htm)so hopefully it was useful to them and they got what they needed.

Erayd
07-12-2009, 08:17 PM
I'm afraid I have to confess to being a Database dunce. I do know the biggest difference is that Access only uses one Database: MS Jet, whereas Base can use a number of SQL database backends such as MySQL, postgresql, Oracle and so on.
Hate to correct you here, but... Access can use almost any database backend, although it can sometimes be a tad annoying. Anything that has ODBC drivers (and that's almost anything) can be used from Access; among others we use Access for generating reports from several Oracle databases at work.

That said... Any improvements to Base are extremely welcome. Access annoys the hell outta me!

Yorick
08-12-2009, 04:21 AM
Hate to correct you here, but... Access can use almost any database backend, although it can sometimes be a tad annoying. Anything that has ODBC drivers (and that's almost anything) can be used from Access; among others we use Access for generating reports from several Oracle databases at work.

That said... Any improvements to Base are extremely welcome. Access annoys the hell outta me!

Heh Correct away, I did say I was a database dunce just didn't realise I was going to prove it so quickly. :D

It makes it a good day, because I've learned something new. :)

Does it do stuff with JDBC drivers?

Erayd
08-12-2009, 07:30 AM
Does it do stuff with JDBC drivers?
Not that I'm aware of - I can't categorically rule it out, but I'd be extremely surprised if it natively spoke JDBC. You could probably do it with an ODBC-JDBC bridge though.

Yorick
08-12-2009, 06:42 PM
My own personal use however has been limited by the inability to use 'action queries' in Base as opposed to the easy use in MSAccess - I do heaps in Access, but would dearly love to migrate forever to Linux and OOo.
For me to migrate, I need an easier path towards coding macros and action queries in Base. The MSAccess equivalents being queries that can Update / Delete / Append / MakeTable being my key requirements.

Probably the best bet is to chat to the Base developers. There is a users mailing list that you can subscribe to by sending a blank email to:
users-subscribe@dba.openoffice.org

There are some documentation links here in the OOo Wiki (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Database) and an article on connecting to an Access DB (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Connecting_to_Microsoft_Access)

These guys are way more qualified than me to make suggestions. Often it's a matter of different "terms" for the same functionality, they would know the equivalences better than this demonstrable dunce. ;)

Yorick
08-12-2009, 07:34 PM
Not that I'm aware of - I can't categorically rule it out, but I'd be extremely surprised if it natively spoke JDBC. You could probably do it with an ODBC-JDBC bridge though.

I did a bit research and while there is lots of info with regard to connecting to Access via a JDBC-ODBC bridge, nothing I can find for the other way round. This probably just means however that I'm fishing in waters too murky for me to read. :groan:

Sweep
08-12-2009, 08:23 PM
Probably the best bet is to chat to the Base developers. There is a users mailing list that you can subscribe to by sending a blank email to:
users-subscribe@dba.openoffice.org

There are some documentation links here in the OOo Wiki (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Database) and an article on connecting to an Access DB (http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Connecting_to_Microsoft_Access)

These guys are way more qualified than me to make suggestions. Often it's a matter of different "terms" for the same functionality, they would know the equivalences better than this demonstrable dunce. ;)

So therefore why not wait to solve an Open office problem a PressF1 user comes up with?

Yorick
08-12-2009, 11:55 PM
So therefore why not wait to solve an Open office problem a PressF1 user comes up with?

Sorry Sweep I'm not sure I understand the question...

Sweep
09-12-2009, 07:45 AM
Let me try to make it more clear.

Rather than telling the general population of PressF1 about all the advantages of Open Office why not wait until a user comes up with "How do I do xyz with Open Office?"

Then would be the best time to jump in with the help I think.

wainuitech
09-12-2009, 08:23 AM
Let me try to make it more clear.

Rather than telling the general population of PressF1 about all the advantages of Open Office why not wait until a user comes up with "How do I do xyz with Open Office?"

Then would be the best time to jump in with the help I think. Thats a very good point Sweep - from what I have seen , while Its good to have free software like open office and a person to support it, the way I see this thread is like I mentioned many posts ago -- its a form of advertising for Open Office - IF it were a paid product its going directly against the forum rules and would have been stopped ages ago.
8) No commercial posting, spamming, or otherwise using the forum to promote products and services purely for your own gain. This doesn't stop you recommending products and services to other users, nor does it stop a vendor discussing their products in relation to a post. But users who post purely to promote their business/website may find their threads deleted along with their user ID.

That rule is being pushed to the limit, esp the sections "recommending products" & "nor does it stop a vendor discussing their products in relation to a post" , considering the post was started by the "vendor" - SO yes your suggestion of waiting till a PressF1 user actually asks for help on a certain problem is 100% valid :thumbs:

B.M.
09-12-2009, 08:54 AM
Well I find Yorick's posts informative and interesting. :thumbs:

If you don't want to know about Open Office, just don't read the posts.

It's no different to not reading an article in PC World because it doesn't interest you.

In the meantime, don't spoil it for those of us that wish to read them.

wainuitech
09-12-2009, 09:11 AM
This thread appears to go against just about everything in that rule. Its not a help question as per the very first post
Up front, I'm the Marketing Contact for OpenOffice.org in NZ

The PressF1 Section is a help section
Ask for help with your PC problems and discuss technical issues.

At the every least, since its verging on spam, the only thing thats stopping it is the fact its free software - I do hope the powers to be will allow other people to drop in advertising and promoting their products, as per this post.

At the VERY least it should be moved to the PF1Chat
The general and "off topic" discussion area..

I'm not against open office one little bit, but just because a person who does development on the software starts a post, that doesn't give the said person the right to " flaunt" the rules.

I've seen the mods dump other threads for a LOT less, as they were considered spam/ advertising.

B.M.
09-12-2009, 10:40 AM
A guy offers a service on a giveaway product with no chance of financial reward and someone moans. :rolleyes:

Typical of what holds the country back. :rolleyes:

wainuitech
09-12-2009, 10:57 AM
far from it - the forum has rules and looking at rule #8 its against that rule. You cant have one set of rules for some and not for others.

So since its obvious that a person can push a product that's free - I may just contact a person I know who also develops software for free, get her to sign up and start promoting it -- Lets see how long it takes to have her account banned and the post deleted.

Edited: by the posters own words
Heh, 3 cheers for PC World for providing a platform for getting the message out. If I manage to help people out and introduce OOo to a wider audience in the process then it's all good. promoting software from your own started post.

Open Office is a good free product, no doubting that - but as sweep asked / suggested
Rather than telling the general population of PressF1 about all the advantages of Open Office why not wait until a user comes up with "How do I do xyz with Open Office?"

Yorick
09-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Let me try to make it more clear.

Rather than telling the general population of PressF1 about all the advantages of Open Office why not wait until a user comes up with "How do I do xyz with Open Office?"

Then would be the best time to jump in with the help I think.

That was what I was trying to do I believe when Paul asked the Question about Access equivalent commands. I wasn't sure of the answers so I provided some links to people who could provide those answers. I have studiously avoided any reference to any commercial offering that I am involved with, but if I crossed a line I apologise.

convair
09-12-2009, 11:15 AM
Let me try to make it more clear.

Rather than telling the general population of PressF1 about all the advantages of Open Office why not wait until a user comes up with "How do I do xyz with Open Office?"

Then would be the best time to jump in with the help I think.

That sums it up I think.

Yorick
09-12-2009, 12:01 PM
Thats a very good point Sweep - from what I have seen , while Its good to have free software like open office and a person to support it, the way I see this thread is like I mentioned many posts ago -- its a form of advertising for Open Office - IF it were a paid product its going directly against the forum rules and would have been stopped ages ago.
Quote:8 ) No commercial posting, spamming, or otherwise using the forum to promote products and services purely for your own gain.
(my emphasis) This was the bit that I was being careful about in terms of the line crossing and going back over the thread I think I've succeeded, but obviously opinion varies on what defines "Your Own Gain."


That rule is being pushed to the limit, esp the sections "recommending products" & "nor does it stop a vendor discussing their products in relation to a post" , considering the post was started by the "vendor" - SO yes your suggestion of waiting till a PressF1 user actually asks for help on a certain problem is 100% valid
I agree in terms of the "limit pushing" and as I iterated earlier. I was very mindful of trying not to cross the line. Originally it was a help thing in terms of helping me with info on people using OOo

This thread appears to go against just about everything in that rule. Its not a help question as per the very first post
Quote:Up front, I'm the Marketing Contact for OpenOffice.org in NZ

The PressF1 Section is a help section
Quote:Ask for help with your PC problems and discuss technical issues.

At the every least, since its verging on spam, the only thing thats stopping it is the fact its free software - I do hope the powers to be will allow other people to drop in advertising and promoting their products, as per this post.

Ouch, if this thread was used as an excuse for commercial vendors to advertise their products in this forum I would delete it myself. As I said I make no gain from this. I'm not paid by the organisation, I do it purely on a voluntary basis and I've studiously tried to avoid any reference that would result in personal gain and if I did, I'd wholly support having my ass burned by the Mods(figuratively speaking of course ::cough:: :horrified)



I'm not against open office one little bit, but just because a person who does development on the software starts a post, that doesn't give the said person the right to " flaunt" the rules.

I don't do development on OOo, I only wish that I had the smarts to join that exalted group. I'm just a member of the community of volunteers. Most of the devs are paid to hack on it.

Hmmm methinks we are perhaps coming up with a Moot for a "Third Great PressF1 Debate". :)

wainuitech
09-12-2009, 12:23 PM
The only reason I even mentioned about this thread, as Sweep has suggested in an earlier post re waiting to have a question asked about a certain problem.

Out of all the posts there is more promoting than answers to actual problems.

In the past there have been threads or links by others that promote software (both free and paid) and they have been either locked or the links / whole thread removed.

Open office is a good program - no doubting that - nothing wrong with it, but promoting it and then comparing to other threads that have been deleted or locked is no difference.

Yorick
09-12-2009, 06:42 PM
Ye Gods I don't believe I just did this! :D

I went back over the thread and went through the messages and the results are:

Answers to original query: 30
Other Questions with no other comment: 5
My answer to questions in any post WRT OOo:27
Off topic Posts that had nothing to with OOo: 8
Other Comments that were on topic and often contained a query or something that needed answering: 49
Posts by me that could be construed as purely Promo:12


Yea I know there are a couple short, what can I say I flunked Accounting! ;)

In my defence most of the "Promo" ones were in direct response to Off Topic comments promoting MSO, The 100 million post I'll happily take the shot for, but bugger it, it was just COOL! :D. If the consensus is I should shutup, then I'm happy to cease and desist. Right now there are more posts about the thread than about the topic so it's probably best.

wainuitech
09-12-2009, 07:04 PM
Theres no need to "shut up" if theres a question, thats what the forum is about - it's the promoting of the software that may go against forum rules --

This look familar -- "The OpenOffice.org Marketing Project exists to promote the
OpenOffice.org Community and the Products and Services it provides "

= advertising.

B.M.
09-12-2009, 07:31 PM
4300 hits on the thread and one moans. :groan:

Well done.

wainuitech
09-12-2009, 07:35 PM
4300 hits on the thread and one moans. :groan:

Well done.
Obviously you can count, several people have agreed - and hits mean F*** all.

Might just arrange a little test as I mentioned before - get someone I know to post some "advertising" similar to this thread-- see how long it lasts. could be this week, or next or next ;)

B.M.
09-12-2009, 08:27 PM
I wonder if calling yourself a Computer Tech from Wainuiomata could be seen as advertising or soliciting for work? :eek:

I suppose it depends how pedantic you want to be.

wainuitech
09-12-2009, 08:50 PM
Ewww personal attacks now is it - see how low some can go -- For starters there are many computer technicians here, some have their business details or contacts in their profiles ( I dont ) - please point out ANY post that I have actually myself said where exactly I am as in business address, AND my company name & soliciting for work. NEVER - not even in my profile, which BTW I see you have visited.

From last count I know of 4 Computer Techs who run a business in the suburb that I live - I could be any one of them.

I am a Computer Tech yes - I have several computer Quals and diplomas.

Sweep
09-12-2009, 09:08 PM
Ye Gods I don't believe I just did this! :D


I went back over the thread and went through the messages and the results are:

Answers to original query: 30
Other Questions with no other comment: 5
My answer to questions in any post WRT OOo:27
Off topic Posts that had nothing to with OOo: 8
Other Comments that were on topic and often contained a query or something that needed answering: 49
Posts by me that could be construed as purely Promo:12

Yea I know there are a couple short, what can I say I flunked Accounting! ;)

In my defence most of the "Promo" ones were in direct response to Off Topic comments promoting MSO, The 100 million post I'll happily take the shot for, but bugger it, it was just COOL! :D. If the consensus is I should shutup, then I'm happy to cease and desist. Right now there are more posts about the thread than about the topic so it's probably best.


I beleive that you made the first post in this thread to find out how many users of Open Office were out there so you said.

Then you started the help thread which only pushes the product in my opinion.

Jen
09-12-2009, 10:07 PM
Righto.

Let me dive right in here. I can see both sides of the argument (guess that is why I am a Mod :p).

Yorick has been incredibly helpful in explaining OOo usage and tips in answer to people's questions. There is no doubt people really appreciate this and it is great having that experience on the board. :thumbs:

On the other hand, yes there has been a bit of promo. It can be a fine line at times and as we have several people raising this issue, it does suggest it has been pushed a bit too much. Yorick is obviously passionate about OOo and it is easily to get caught up in sharing your enthusiasm for the product especially when there is an appreciative audience.

Compromise: Ease back on your enthusiasm in spreading the love and perhaps focus on answering members queries.


Note, if anyone thinks it will be amusing to play tic-for-tac by starting a "promo" thread (as suggested) they will find out just how grumpy Mods can be. Don't go there. :thanks

Now be nice everyone and gather around for a group hug. :D

wainuitech
09-12-2009, 10:30 PM
:wub

Sweep
09-12-2009, 10:48 PM
There is no doubt that Open Office is good software and an alternative to MSOffice.

:2cents:

Yorick
10-12-2009, 01:39 AM
Theres no need to "shut up" if theres a question, thats what the forum is about - it's the promoting of the software that may go against forum rules --

This look familar -- "The OpenOffice.org Marketing Project exists to promote the
OpenOffice.org Community and the Products and Services it provides "

= advertising.

Irrelevant, I said that up front: Marketing Contact, the title is pretty unambiguous. I go back to the critical part of Rule 8 ".....for personal gain." there is no possible gain for me personally or even for the project!

Somebody developing a piece of free software would stand to gain if that software was promoted to the point that someone brought the rights to it, that happens a lot, so your developer friend fits a different paradigm.

But now this is getting divisive which I didn't want :( .

But I will add one last comment:

OOo is free
It will remain free
You can upgrade it for free forever
To do that it means people like me get no gain

There is a sticky thread on here where a number of people are promoting Microsoft's AV offering as if MS can't find part of their 5 Billion dollar a year marketing budget to do that for themselves.

Sweep was promoting MSO in this thread which is why I felt the need to reply and now I am accused of spamming.

In both these cases someone stands to gain, in both cases Microsoft. However the people promoting the MS product stand to gain as much from their promo efforts as I do from promoting OOo.

The difference is that in the above cases, MS gains, in the OOo case only the enduser gains.

wainuitech
10-12-2009, 08:06 AM
But I will add one last comment:



I and others have previously said theres nothing wrong with Open Office, its a good program.

Any way, people have said their bits, please refer to posts 137, 146, 149 AND the most IMPORTANT one post 147 from the Moderator -- Jen has spoken and given guide lines --Any one who ignores them faces the possibility of further actions.

If the moderators decide some thread or person is carrying on against the forum rules they will act.

Yorick
10-12-2009, 06:32 PM
I beleive that you made the first post in this thread to find out how many users of Open Office were out there so you said.

Then you started the help thread which only pushes the product in my opinion.

Any comment I make about OOo is going have some sort of promo effect, but at the end of the day there is still (as iterated in Rule 8) no personal gain and no likliehood of personal gain. Therefore there is no breaking of the rules.

wainuitech
10-12-2009, 10:04 PM
Any comment I make about OOo is going have some sort of promo effect, but at the end of the day there is still (as iterated in Rule 8) no personal gain and no likliehood of personal gain. Therefore there is no breaking of the rules. That would only be a case if it was worded to promote.

There are thousands of answers to thousands of questions and no sign of promoting.

Heres an real simple example using MS Office (only because I know how to use excell), I'm not 100% sure about Calc because its been a while since I have used Open Office Calc. (I think in Open Office there is another step, clicking some tick or something)


Anyway the example, some one asks this:

Question:

In a spread sheet - if I have a row of figures and want the total sum of that row how would you do it. The amounts to be added are in cells A1 A2 A3 A4 A5 ??

Answer: To add all cells to get a total - select A1 hold down the shift Key, select any cell below A5 say A7, this will select all cells between A1 -A7 - Next click the Sum Symbol in the tool bar and the total of the selected cells will be added in A7.

There you go , an answer and not one bit of promoting - its simply being careful as to what you put - no real brainer.

Edited: In other words write the answer as if you were doing it yourself and stating steps.

wainuitech
10-12-2009, 10:41 PM
Please add to above -- It can be done, and you have proved it-- Please read post 86 & 87 & 90 ( page 9) - question was answered expertly as it should be.

:D Now wasn't that easy :p

Yorick
10-12-2009, 11:53 PM
There you go , an answer and not one bit of promoting - its simply being careful as to what you put - no real brainer.

Edited: In other words write the answer as if you were doing it yourself and stating steps.

You are still valiantly avoiding the real point.....

I'll put it in bold letters.......

"There is NO personal gain!" a critical factor in Rule 8

Jen
11-12-2009, 07:31 AM
I think we are just going around and around and around here over the same points.

Let's just move on now. :thanks

B.M.
11-12-2009, 07:33 AM
For God’s sake, let’s let the Moderators do the Moderating. :rolleyes:

This “He Said”, “She Said” nonsense is kids stuff. :sleep

Please refer to post #147 and now let’s just get on with it. :)

wainuitech
11-12-2009, 07:56 AM
Totally agree BM. PF1 is a place people ask questions and hopefully get answers.

Heres a legit question relating to OOo and I dont know or cant find the answer to in google -

When will Open Office be making web based documents ?

Google has google Doc's, MS are working on web based - and there are a few others as well.

The way things are going, having web based documents in the future will be the "in thing".

Yorick
11-12-2009, 10:05 AM
I think we are just going around and around and around here over the same points.

Let's just move on now. :thanks

Hi Jen,

Yea I'm sorry about this going on a bit much. I'm just trying to establish the rules thing here and what defines personal gain. That particular part of rule 8 I asked about several times which Wainuitech has studiously avoided answering.

My problem is: If someone yells that "Rules are being broken" loud enough and often enough, even though it is demonstrably untrue, does that then change the rule.

Your post 147 so often referred to, was prompted more by the fact that the slanging match between Wainuitech and BM could get nasty, than any rules being broken by yours truly. And thanks for BM's support.

I read the rules and conditions before I started and was very careful about staying within them and in fact tried to err on the side of caution.

My point was and is: The simple fact of my position within the OOo community as demonstrated on my avatar is going to mean that any comment I make about OOo could be seen as promotional, but because I stand to make no personal gain, then it doesn't break Rule 8.

The reason I requested clarification from Wainuitech about the "Personal Gain" part of the rule was to preempt any later comments from him on any other posts I may make on the subject of OOo, I did this because his comments were the "squeaky wheel" that caused the questioning of Rule 8 and he could ostensibly do the same thing in any other thread that I was to comment in.

I should add that I'm not getting P'd off about this, the discussion has been, but for a very small hiccup, conducted in a civilised fashion, something that is an unfortunate rarity in many forums on the triple dub. Kudos to Wainuitech for that.

I simply disagree with him that I am in breach of Rule 8 because of the "Personal Gain" section of said rule and I was asking him to defend that part of his proposition. Something he has studiously avoided doing so I must assume that he can't. :)

wratterus
11-12-2009, 10:09 AM
I think we are just going around and around and around here over the same points.

Let's just move on now. :thanks

Say what? :p

Yorick
11-12-2009, 10:29 AM
Totally agree BM. PF1 is a place people ask questions and hopefully get answers.

Heres a legit question relating to OOo and I dont know or cant find the answer to in google -

When will Open Office be making web based documents ?

Google has google Doc's, MS are working on web based - and there are a few others as well.

Web based will be a major feature of 4.0 at this point, it's being worked on right now. I doubt that it will run on OOo servers however because that will require an income stream to pay for it and I doubt Oracle/Sun would fund that completely. However it will be available to anyone else to set up on their servers to perhaps generate an income stream, perhaps one of the other corporate partners like IBM or Novell might run with it. It's still very much in the concept stage however, so anything could happen in the future.

The way things are going, having web based documents in the future will be the "in thing".
There is a new paid service in Beta www.ooanywhere.com/ (http://www.ooanywhere.com/) that has nothing to do with the project, I haven't tried it because I'm on dialup and it's the full suite running in a browser so I've heard that it's pretty slow first time up. There's a trial period and it runs on Windows and Linux but apparently a little flakey on Mac

Darn it now I'm getting all promotional! :D

wainuitech
11-12-2009, 11:03 AM
Web based will be a major feature of 4.0 at this point, it's being worked on right now. I doubt that it will run on OOo servers however because that will require an income stream to pay for it and I doubt Oracle/Sun would fund that completely. However it will be available to anyone else to set up on their servers to perhaps generate an income stream, perhaps one of the other corporate partners like IBM or Novell might run with it. It's still very much in the concept stage however, so anything could happen in the future.
There is a new paid service in Beta www.ooanywhere.com/ (http://www.ooanywhere.com/) that has nothing to do with the project, I haven't tried it because I'm on dialup and it's the full suite running in a browser so I've heard that it's pretty slow first time up. There's a trial period and it runs on Windows and Linux but apparently a little flakey on Mac

Darn it now I'm getting all promotional! :D Well thats good to know, as after doing some searching on google, it didn't really find anything.

The link posted -- Yes big places like Google and MS can afford to "fund" their own, BUT If I read that page correctly, they want to charge people per hour for web based apps ?? THAT will be a big turn off, considering there are free options available.

I'm only mentioning the below because my name was referred to;

That particular part of rule 8 I asked about several times which Wainuitech has studiously avoided answering. Far from it - Jen posted in 147 her "advice" - isn't me thats carrying on about promoting - others also made comments. I was referring about "using the forum to promote products and services" As I know its unpaid work that people do in OOo.

Please dont bring that up again, as it will only suggest what was mentioned.