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Erayd
30-06-2009, 08:21 PM
Hi all,

Being an argumentative bugger, and recognising that some of you guys are too, who would be interested in a few organised / formal debate threads?

The structure I propose would be as follows:

Two teams of three members each
Each member is allowed one post
Each team is allowed one additional concluding post (this can be from any member of the team, and is in addition to that member's own post)
New argument points may not be introduced in the concluding post
Posting order is decided and published by each team before the debate starts
Posting must alternate between teams
Which team argues for / against the moot is decided randomly - maybe by one of the mods?
The winning team is decided by a one-week open poll after the final post in the debate

I'm not particularly fussed as to what the moot is, provided it's not substantially biased to a particular side.

Who's interested?

GameJunkie
30-06-2009, 08:26 PM
sounds good yea.

how would topics be chosen?
and what does the winning team get as a prize?

Erayd
30-06-2009, 08:29 PM
how would topics be chosen?No idea - maybe just ask for suggestions, and let one of the mods pick one. Or perhaps nominate a chairperson to arbitrate these things.

...and what does the winning team get as a prize?Kudos? I wasn't intending this to be 'for' anything other than the enjoyable mental exercise of a structured debate.

somebody
30-06-2009, 08:33 PM
I propose the following topic, given the discussion this has received in some other threads.

"This house supports the widespread use of surveillance cameras in public areas."

Sweep
30-06-2009, 08:39 PM
I'm for the idea of formal debates but I fear you may finish up getting very little in the way of actual results.

nofam
30-06-2009, 09:09 PM
This would be so much more convivial over a few quiet pints. . . . :blush:

:D

Metla
30-06-2009, 09:10 PM
Only if you lock out casual posters, and then you will look like elitist ******s.:p

the_bogan
30-06-2009, 09:17 PM
The great pressf1 wellingtonian dabate, held at trax bar.

Topic is, should we have a debate at trax bar.

GameJunkie
30-06-2009, 09:21 PM
The great pressf1 wellingtonian dabate, held at trax bar.

Topic is, should we have a debate at trax bar.

good call :p

johcar
30-06-2009, 11:30 PM
The great pressf1 wellingtonian dabate, held at trax bar.

Topic is, should we have a debate at trax bar.


.... or another round :D

R2x1
01-07-2009, 12:56 AM
The intensive training sessions could be interesting if they go the full 12 rounds, regardless of which bar.

Bozo
01-07-2009, 10:15 AM
The great pressf1 wellingtonian dabate, held at trax bar.

Topic is, should we have a debate at trax bar.
:D

Speaking of which - how many wellingtonians are there here?

We should meet at a bar for drinks some friday after work or something.

roddy_boy
01-07-2009, 11:14 AM
No idea - maybe just ask for suggestions, and let one of the mods pick one. Or perhaps nominate a chairperson to arbitrate these things.

I don't mind being chairman.

Erayd
01-07-2009, 11:25 AM
I don't mind being chairman.
No offense intended here roddy_boy, but I think everyone else would :p.

Blam
01-07-2009, 11:28 AM
What exactly does the chairperson do?

Erayd
01-07-2009, 11:34 AM
What exactly does the chairperson do?
Clarify rules, arbitrate any dispute, assign sides to the moot, decide on a moot... etc etc

roddy_boy
01-07-2009, 11:34 AM
No offense intended here roddy_boy, but I think everyone else would :p.

How on earth was that not intended to offend? :crying

But yeah nah I'd be keen for a debate. Bags not being on Sweep's team though.

Erayd
01-07-2009, 11:46 AM
How on earth was that not intended to offend? :cryingIt was intended as an objective statement of fact. No offense intended. Whether offense is actually taken is another matter entirely :rolleyes:.


But yeah nah I'd be keen for a debate. Bags not being on Sweep's team though.
:thumbs:

nofam
01-07-2009, 02:16 PM
It was intended as an objective statement of fact. No offense intended. Whether offense is actually taken is another matter entirely :rolleyes:.


:thumbs:

I'd propose that Deane & Sweep must be on the same team, lest the debate lapse into lengthy phrases in Latin, or 4 hours is spent clarifying semantics and grammatical syntax.

:p

:thumbs:

Blam
01-07-2009, 04:09 PM
Clarify rules, arbitrate any dispute, assign sides to the moot, decide on a moot... etc etc

A Mod maybe?

johcar
01-07-2009, 04:21 PM
A Mod maybe?

Don't they have enough to do already?

Blam
01-07-2009, 04:22 PM
Don't they have enough to do already?

Good Point I guess.

somebody
01-07-2009, 04:32 PM
I have spoken to Erayd and offered to moderate/chair the first debate, if and when it happens.

ubergeek85
01-07-2009, 04:36 PM
Looks like a great idea. Don't think I'd participate though, simply because I'm crap at arguing the toss.

Some topic ideas: Should NZ relax or tighten gun laws, with the aim of improving public safety?

Should giving someone who you catch robbing your house/attempting to mug you/etc a bit of a hiding be treated as assault, or should a more permissive attitude be adopted by lawmakers?

Gobe1
01-07-2009, 04:40 PM
I'd propose that Deane & Sweep must be on the same team, lest the debate lapse into lengthy phrases in Latin, or 4 hours is spent clarifying semantics and grammatical syntax.

:p

:thumbs:

And zapperboy haw haw :D

johcar
01-07-2009, 06:06 PM
I have spoken to Erayd and offered to moderate/chair the first debate, if and when it happens.

Well, I guess "somebody" has to....

Jen
01-07-2009, 07:09 PM
I don't mind moving/deleting posts made in the official debate thread by any non-official debater's before the debate has finished. Once the debate has finished, the thread can be posted in by anyone.

This will keep the debate thread clean and on topic. :)

Erayd
01-07-2009, 07:10 PM
Thanks - should help keep things nice & clean :D

GameJunkie
01-07-2009, 11:14 PM
A Mod maybe?
chill :clap

roddy_boy
02-07-2009, 12:36 AM
Looks like a great idea. Don't think I'd participate though, simply because I'm crap at arguing the toss.

Some topic ideas: Should NZ relax or tighten gun laws, with the aim of improving public safety?

Should giving someone who you catch robbing your house/attempting to mug you/etc a bit of a hiding be treated as assault, or should a more permissive attitude be adopted by lawmakers?

IIRC a moot is supposed to be a statement rather than a question.




I don't mind moving/deleting posts made in the official debate thread by any non-official debater's before the debate has finished. Once the debate has finished, the thread can be posted in by anyone.

This will keep the debate thread clean and on topic. :)

What about poster's that put apostrophe's where they shouldn't be? :rolleyes:


Well, I guess "somebody" has to....

Lol. Irl.

R2x1
02-07-2009, 01:15 AM
What exactly does the chairperson do?
Well, the doorman mans the door. The chairperson persons the chair. They are senior chair warmers who get to sit when others stand. However, when things get tense, they usually sit on the fence. This allows them to be abused by both sides. As a side effect of fence sitting, they become neutral. This is why we have chairpersons instead of chairmen or chairwomen. :thanks

Metla
02-07-2009, 01:20 AM
The winning team is decided by a one-week open poll after the final post in the debate



I declare twelvevolts the loser.

Greg
02-07-2009, 04:20 AM
I would be happy to join in. Any team that has me on their side is bound to win.

Bozo
02-07-2009, 10:13 AM
Yes I would be keen to, depending on the topic however - would need to be something that I already had a fairly decent background knowledge on ;)

nofam
02-07-2009, 10:28 AM
As a side effect of fence sitting, they become neutral. This is why we have chairpersons instead of chairmen or chairwomen. :thanks

I was always told that Chairman is correct for both genders as the man
comes from the Latin word manus meaning hand, as in the the person controlling the chair?

roddy_boy
02-07-2009, 12:55 PM
You're a manus.

nofam
02-07-2009, 02:15 PM
You're a manus.

You listen to Amanus Morissette. . .

:D

zqwerty
02-07-2009, 02:31 PM
This is going to be funny, I predict a supernova followed by the formation of a black hole.

johcar
02-07-2009, 02:39 PM
Yes I would be keen to, depending on the topic however - would need to be something that I already had a fairly decent background knowledge on ;)

Never let a few facts stand in the way of a bit of fun!! Or serious mickey-taking...

Isn't that the way the Chat Forum works? :D

Erayd
02-07-2009, 02:54 PM
OK guys, lets get some teams organised.

If you would like to participate, send a PM to 'somebody' by midnight tomorrow night, and he will do a hat-draw to determine the teams. If there aren't enough submissions by then, he will wait until six people have responded.

Somebody will also decide on the moot at the same time - please indicate in your PM which category you'd prefer (one category only please), and the moot will be selected from the most popular category among participants. If you would like to suggest a moot, please send that as well, and make sure it fits one of the categories.

Categories are: Domestic Politics
International Relations/Security
Youth Issues
Economy
Environment/Science/Technology/Health
Drugs/Crime
Media/Entertainment/Arts
Sport

Affirming / negating teams will be decided by a coin toss.

kenj
02-07-2009, 03:00 PM
OK guys, lets get some teams organised.

If you would like to participate, send a PM to 'somebody' by midnight tomorrow night, and he will do a hat-draw to determine the teams. If there aren't enough submissions by then, he will wait until six people have responded.

Somebody will also decide on the moot at the same time - please indicate in your PM which category you'd prefer (one category only please), and the moot will be selected from the most popular category among participants. If you would like to suggest a moot, please send that as well, and make sure it fits one of the categories.

Categories are: Domestic Politics
International Relations/Security
Youth Issues
Economy
Environment/Science/Technology/Health
Drugs/Crime
Media/Entertainment/Arts
Sport

Affirming / negating teams will be decided by a coin toss.

You left out the subject "Understanding Women"

Ken :thumbs:

Sweep
02-07-2009, 03:04 PM
I was always told that Chairman is correct for both genders as the man
comes from the Latin word manus meaning hand, as in the the person controlling the chair?

Hmmmmm.

Latin does come in handy sometimes then to help prove a moot point.

Erayd
02-07-2009, 03:18 PM
You left out the subject "Understanding Women"

Ken :thumbs:Oh no - that one would come under 'Domestic Politics' :p.

Erayd
02-07-2009, 05:39 PM
I've just received a couple of questions via PM - answers are below. If you have more questions, can you post them in this thread please? That way everybody can benefit from them. If you need to ask, chances are you're not the only one wondering!


Will it be permissable to consult with other Team members via PM during the debate and before posted to the thread as your entry?Absolutely, although there's an ethical obligation there to make sure one person isn't carrying the entire debate. But yeah, feel free to talk to team-members via PM / IM / email / whatever.


Is there going to be a time limit between postings as in you have 24 hours to reply etc.Yes, there will be a max time limit in which to reply, but I think we should set that after we know the teams - as different people have different lifestyles, we need to come up with an interval that suits everybody, but isn't too long.

Miami Steve
02-07-2009, 06:04 PM
You left out the subject "Understanding Women"

Ken :thumbs:

Isn't that "Domestic Politics"? :xmouth:

OOPS - too late :lol:

Erayd
02-07-2009, 06:20 PM
More questions:


I was more thinking if I am to post next whether I should try to rebut a point that another person on the team I end up in had not covered previously.Absolutely - you're more than welcome to do so, and it will help increase your chances of winning. Almost all versions of formal debating allow this, and I see no reason why here should be any different.


As to the actual debate are we going to post links, precedents, and more importantly sources as to the position taken?No, you aren't allowed to post links. The reason for this is that if you post links, the audience will click them to read the sources, which will possibly contaminate their view of the debate - the argument should stand on its own, and the outcome should not be easily influenced by how well written your sources are.

As an example, you can say stuff like "according to a ministry of social development report done in 2007, ....", but not "according to this (http://example.com) report, ..."


Will there be a word limit on posts?Yes - Somebody will be setting this. In verbal debates there is a time limit, so a word limit will serve the same function here.

hueybot3000
02-07-2009, 06:29 PM
When the debate is over what stops people spamming the voting? I can think of a few members on here which would inconvenience themselves enough to do that

somebody
02-07-2009, 06:31 PM
When the debate is over what stops people spamming the voting? I can think of a few members on here which would inconvenience themselves enough to do that

Nothing - but does it really matter?

Erayd
02-07-2009, 06:34 PM
When the debate is over what stops people spamming the voting? I can think of a few members on here which would inconvenience themselves enough to do that
It's a poll. The only way to spam it would be to register lots of new accounts to vote on it, which the mods could spot *very* quickly (and ban the offending parties).

Sweep
02-07-2009, 06:46 PM
Nothing - but does it really matter?

It does not matter as the debate is only an exersise.

But we could have a rule where only people who have xx posts or more can vote subsequently after the debate is over maybe. Or alternatively the said votes are discounted this being a public poll so anyone can see who voted one hopes.

Just a thought and you do not have to put it in.

somebody
02-07-2009, 06:49 PM
It does not matter as the debate is only an exersise.

But we could have a rule where only people who have xx posts or more can vote subsequently after the debate is over maybe. Or alternatively the said votes are discounted this being a public poll so anyone can see who voted one hopes.

Just a thought and you do not have to put it in.

The public poll idea sounds good - that way it's obvious if someone is just signing up a whole heap of accounts to vote in the poll (although I can't see why anyone would be bothered).

Sweep
02-07-2009, 07:08 PM
IIRC a moot is supposed to be a statement rather than a question.





What about poster's that put apostrophe's where they shouldn't be? :rolleyes:



Lol. Irl.

One apostrophe is meant to denote a missing letter or belonging to a person as in "The Lord's Prayer"

Possibly brush up on your u'se of the same. :2cents:

Jen
02-07-2009, 07:19 PM
The public poll idea sounds good - that way it's obvious if someone is just signing up a whole heap of accounts to vote in the poll (although I can't see why anyone would be bothered).No need to make the poll public. I can check the names of who voted if there is a suspicion of vote rigging. I promise not to rig the vote either. :D

I agree with you, I doubt people would register a new account to cast more than one vote.

I don't think the voting should be limited to only those with X amount of posts - it should be open to all members. :)

Chilling_Silence
03-07-2009, 01:59 AM
We could always just set it to 5 posts, and use something like this:
http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=185858

Gotta admit, I've laughed aloud a few times already as I read through this thread :D

Chilling_Silence
03-07-2009, 02:00 AM
You left out the subject "Understanding Women"

I'm not sure even God knows how to win a debate on that one... ;)

roddy_boy
03-07-2009, 02:16 AM
When the debate is over what stops people spamming the voting? I can think of a few members on here which would inconvenience themselves enough to do that

You better not be thinking of me.


One apostrophe is meant to denote a missing letter or belonging to a person as in "The Lord's Prayer"

Possibly brush up on your u'se of the same. :2cents:

No. I needn't brush up on my use of apostrophes. Jen's apostrophe was completely unnecessary.


I'm not sure even God knows how to win a debate on that one... ;)

I'm not even sure god exists.




You listen to Amanus Morissette. . .

:D

And I always thought you were a failure at life. Well done good sir, well done.

prefect
03-07-2009, 08:57 AM
I have a faint memory a few months back of of someone voting by selecting all the options on one poll.
Maybe the software which works the poll needs a tweek to stop this heinous crime.

somebody
03-07-2009, 12:03 PM
5 people so far have PMed me and expressed interest to take part in the inaugural PF1 debate. We need one more person - anybody interested?

Cicero
03-07-2009, 12:21 PM
A Mod maybe?

Try not to become a worry Blam.

Most of us left school years ago and no longer require prefects.

Winston001
03-07-2009, 01:31 PM
Um.....just before we kick off, is this the five minute argument, or the full half hour...?? :)

somebody
03-07-2009, 01:35 PM
Um.....just before we kick off, is this the five minute argument, or the full half hour...?? :)

Arguments will need to be substantial, but there will be an upper word limit (of 2000 words) per person. A 5 minute speech is around 600 words depending on your speaking style.

Erayd
03-07-2009, 01:36 PM
Note also that the word limit includes any quotes.

somebody
03-07-2009, 01:39 PM
I should emphasise that 2000 words is an absolute limit. There is no need to actually go up to that many words - I would expect most people would go up to around 1000 words at most.

Cicero
03-07-2009, 01:40 PM
Um.....just before we kick off, is this the five minute argument, or the full half hour...?? :)

That's not argumentative?

prefect
03-07-2009, 01:56 PM
Yes it is

Sweep
03-07-2009, 02:19 PM
An interesting point of view here as to format I came across while doing the research. This is for students and assumes a Professor in a teaching role.

http://www.dushkin.com/usingts/guide/app06.mhtml

I make no comment at this time as to the material but it may be relevant.

somebody
03-07-2009, 02:25 PM
An interesting point of view here as to format I came across while doing the research. This is for students and assumes a Professor in a teaching role.

http://www.dushkin.com/usingts/guide/app06.mhtml

I make no comment at this time as to the material but it may be relevant.

Yup - it looks like a good, concise summary. When I announce the topic and teams, I will also provide some rough guidelines on what is expected from each team.

Winston001
03-07-2009, 02:31 PM
Yes it is

Look - I told you once!!

Cicero
03-07-2009, 05:04 PM
Look - I told you once!!


Thus far we don't have an argument ,an argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition.

Jen
03-07-2009, 05:52 PM
Thus far we don't have an argument ,an argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition.You like your words and comments. I hope you have signed up for this debate so you can really show everyone your skills.

R2x1
03-07-2009, 06:07 PM
I foretell wigs on the green, punctuated by roddy_boy snapping at ankles.

Cicero
03-07-2009, 07:14 PM
You like your words and comments. I hope you have signed up for this debate so you can really show everyone your skills.

Good point,lets hope some us can find a sense of humour,which is clearly sadly lacking!

hueybot3000
03-07-2009, 07:18 PM
You better not be thinking of me.

Or what? :p

prefect
03-07-2009, 07:35 PM
Thus far we don't have an argument ,an argument is a connected series of statements to establish a definite proposition.

One thing I love about this forum are the fellow Monty P fans.

roddy_boy
03-07-2009, 11:47 PM
I have a faint memory a few months back of of someone voting by selecting all the options on one poll.
Maybe the software which works the poll needs a tweek to stop this heinous crime.

You can choose to make a poll multi-vote or not.