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Cicero
30-01-2005, 12:53 PM
Anybody got any views on insight.

It's is the type of situation when the answer just comes.
If you have had a touch of insight,where would you say it comes from?
What is clear,is that we don't have access at will.

~sy~
30-01-2005, 02:00 PM
I'm totally confused and lost. Can you explain?

the highlander
30-01-2005, 02:13 PM
Old age and experience ;)

Shortcircuit
30-01-2005, 03:25 PM
I get it sometimes when I go to see 'clients'... people who I've never met and won't meet again, but when I get to their door I know what they look like and what they are going to say/do.

Yep, it's spooky, just wish I could remember a bit earlier so I know what I'm going to be doing tomorrow :D

Cicero
30-01-2005, 03:51 PM
I'm totally confused and lost. Can you explain?

If you have not experienced it then it is hard to grasp.

Clear or deep perception of a situation is a definition.

Cicero
30-01-2005, 03:53 PM
Old age and experience ;)
Nothing to do with age I think.
Einstein would have been young when he had his best insight.

Terry Porritt
30-01-2005, 04:30 PM
With me it is usually, "Now why did'nt I think of that?"

You have made a point there Cicero, genius's probably have a much greater incidence of insight than ordinary folk, I'm thinking of people like Einstein (some say it was his wife who was the genius), and Stephen Hawking.

Then there were those giants of old like Archimedes, Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Planck, Born, Heisenberg, head and shoulders above mere mortals.

Cicero
30-01-2005, 05:10 PM
With me it is usually, "Now why didn't I think of that?"

You have made a point there Cicero, genius's probably have a much greater incidence of insight than ordinary folk, I'm thinking of people like Einstein (some say it was his wife who was the genius), and Stephen Hawking.

Then there were those giants of old like Archimedes, Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Planck, Born, Heisenberg, head and shoulders above mere mortals.
Fascinating stuff,one thinks of Runtgen,one insight and we have xrays.
McCartney,woke up one night and wrote down,"Yesterday"he said it was just there,all he had to do was write it down.
All the knowledge of the future is there,all we need is a little insight and we could tap it.

Cicero
30-01-2005, 05:34 PM
I get it sometimes when I go to see 'clients'... people who I've never met and won't meet again, but when I get to their door I know what they look like and what they are going to say/do.

Yep, it's spooky, just wish I could remember a bit earlier so I know what I'm going to be doing tomorrow :D

That I think is more deja vu.

Terry Porritt
30-01-2005, 06:06 PM
it will take a bit of time to think of some insight into some of the great minds mentioned, but the story of Archimedes is easy enough so we will start with him.

He was in his bath tub one day in ancient Greece when he suddenly had this flash of light, an inspiration if you like, and he leapt from the tub and ran naked through the streets of Athens crying "Eureka"....

And that as any electronics man or even electrician will know is how we came to have eureka resistance wire.

the highlander
30-01-2005, 06:09 PM
Nothing to do with age I think.
Einstein would have been young when he had his best insight.

Experience is a by product of age
but it depends on how u define insight

Winston001
30-01-2005, 07:24 PM
Experience is a by product of age
but it depends on how u define insight

With respect, I must disagree. I'd suggest that lads of 23 who survived the Great War, Vietnam etc had an overdose of experience.

I've just been talking to an 85yr old gentleman, with much life experience as a farmer and a soldier. He is a kind decent man. But his complete lack of insight into other people and lives different to his own is staggering.

So insight is an elusive beast.

godfather
30-01-2005, 07:54 PM
In my case, experience is what enables me to recognise a mistake when I make it for the second, third or fourth time.

I believe insight is a mixture of perception and an innate understanding, that many people do not have and will possibly never have.

In others it may come with age and experience, but it's not guaranteed to.

I actually sell insight for a living at times (or the result of insight).

~sy~
30-01-2005, 07:59 PM
Experience is a by product of age
but it depends on how u define insight
I would also disagree. I believe there will be alot of young kids out there in third-world nations that would have done more in their lifetime doing work than some early-30s in NZ still sitting at home playing computer games. While they may not have the experience of Halo, etc. they certainly know more about life in general. Don't think that just because you are old that you are experienced. Personally, I'd just liken the whole issue to members on PF1.

I also liked the way Billy said about experience as coming from mistakes. I certainly learn most myself from making mistakes. :badpc:

Metla
30-01-2005, 08:05 PM
I would imagine a child in a third would country would be experienced at eating dirt and not dieing, They only know the reality of their lives,which is suffering and short, Not exactly a voice of experience that i would consult.

Anyhow,Just musing.No fool like an old fool as they say.

Dictionary definition.

1 : understanding or awareness of one's mental or emotional condition; especially : recognition that one is mentally ill
2 : immediate and clear understanding (as seeing the solution to a problem or the means to reaching a goal) that takes place without recourse to overt trial-and-error behavior




Insight is commen,happens everyday,and is greatly relient on past experiences and knowledge of the subject.

Terry Porritt
30-01-2005, 08:06 PM
I have to agree with Highlander that it depends on how insight is defined.

My Concise Collins lists four shades of meaning.

Cicero had this in mind:
2. "a penetrating and often sudden understanding, as of a complex situation or problem" . At least, that was what I assumed. A sudden "Eureka".

Then we have,
1. "the ability to perceive clearly or deeply; penetration."

3. "(Psychol), the capacity for understanding ones own or another's mental processes."

4. "(Psychiatry), the ability to understand one's own problems."

I think your example Win would fall into definition 3.

FoxyMX
30-01-2005, 08:37 PM
I don't have any "insight" and while I don't really believe in "ESP" it scares me silly the number of times that something happens just as I am thinking about it.

For example I often start thinking of certain people, quite often out of the blue, for no reason whatsoever, even people I haven't thought about for a while, then they either turn up at the door, phone up, email or show up on IM immediately or within minutes afterwards. :eek:

For another example I can't count the number of times when I will be thinking of something then The Boss will start talking about it - even things totally unrelated to what had been happening recently. It's really scary sometimes - I don't want him reading my mind!! :p

I just really really wish I had taken notice of and acted on the "feeling" that I had last Friday evening. It would have saved quite a lot of grief. :(

Terry Porritt
30-01-2005, 08:43 PM
ROFL me ROFL, that's not insight FoxyMX, that's second-sight.

Scouse
30-01-2005, 08:43 PM
Terry, Terry, Terry - what a load of cods this is.... He was in his bath tub one day in ancient Greece when he suddenly had this flash of light, an inspiration if you like, and he leapt from the tub and ran naked through the streets of Athens crying "Eureka"....

And that as any electronics man or even electrician will know is how we came to have eureka resistance wire.

We all accept the first bit about the bath but the man's discovery was a method of measuring the volume of an irregularly shaped object (in this case himself) by the quantity of water displaced when the object is immersed in a beaker of liquid - hence the eureka jar used by generations of kids in school. :cool: No insight here. Just practical application.

Terry Porritt
30-01-2005, 08:50 PM
You mean to say Scouse that Archimedes didnt discover eureka wire? Oh dear, and all this time I have been under this misaprehension.

Of course he was a hydraulics engineer wasn't he? He invented the propeller that was fitted to early steam powered ships, that is where the name "screw" came from as in Archimedes Screw.

beetle
30-01-2005, 08:53 PM
Heh?

well insight at times is often to me, that dawning after something happens like.....oh dear how did i miss that one..... like oh bugga, was that the answer. or what was the question.


At the moment, i would consider myself at times a good esp person, when i actually get time to focus on feelings more often than not they happen.....

The insight i am currently experienceing badly is ...a large assignment i can so no way in hell of getting finished in time to be handed in, the time i need to focus on it, the ability to think, and work on it is nil, and the amount of work is huge....... so a case of deja vue is coming i think.

I think my esp and insight was useless for me, when it was singing loudly at me........when 2 yrs ago we had a choice, and i shoulda stuck to me guns and said No! and not had the enormous amount of grief we have now. or is that also hindsight? but all along i new it was wrong, just wanted to be supportive, and sometimes you just have to follow not lead.

Insight is what we didnt ask, but should of, but vaguely already new? dont worry its a beetle thing.
Insight is knowing youre talking and still nobody is listening. :( even if ya said pink elephant flying past......

I think for me, insight has come to late, and i just have to live with the messy result. That we may have indirectly, inknowingly caused...... and time may be the only cure.

:illogical


beetle

TonyF
30-01-2005, 09:39 PM
Of course he was a hydraulics engineer wasn't he? He invented the propeller that was fitted to early steam powered ships, that is where the name "screw" came from as in Archimedes Screw.
No Terry - screw for lifting water to a higher point ...
( which of your 4 computer are you using tonight ?)
Cheers Tony

the highlander
30-01-2005, 09:46 PM
Females
No male alive under 30 has anything but a microscopical insight into what makes them tick. Anyone over that age begins to have a tenuous insight. Some will never gain an insight (since they are incable) but others will by gaining experience (=age.)
Again depends on what you define as insight.

Terry Porritt
30-01-2005, 10:02 PM
No Terry - screw for lifting water to a higher point ...
( which of your 4 computer are you using tonight ?)
Cheers Tony

Archimedes collaborated with one Francis Petit Smith to fit one of his archimedean screws to a canal boat. During trials half the screw broke off to leave a shortened screw somewhat more like a propeller we recognise today. immediately the boat increased speed dramatically, so dramatically that Archimedes was compelled to shout Eureka again.

Da Vinci tried to lift air in his helicopter design, but Archimedes was more into water and hydraulics than air.

http://www.boatbuilding.com/content/propellers/

TonyF
30-01-2005, 10:10 PM
Archimedes yelled Eureka in the bath the first time because he had that sinking feeling...

Terry Porritt
30-01-2005, 10:19 PM
Just think though, if he had never had the sudden insight into boyancy, he would never have yelled "Eureka". Then we wouldn't have eureka jars or eureka resistance wire, or silliness on PF1, and only the Greeks would know what eureka means.

BTW, Im using the XP2400+ tonight :thumbs:

Dally
30-01-2005, 10:50 PM
A rather trivial example of insight is in clues to cryptic crosswords. You can be quite baffled and then the solution comes in an instant of insight. It is then suprising that you couldn't see it in the first place.
Example of one I was doing tonight:-
Natal political faction's anniversary (8,5)

godfather
30-01-2005, 10:55 PM
Natal political faction's anniversary (8,5)

Birthday Party?

TonyF
30-01-2005, 10:58 PM
V quick GF ! You have a suitably devious crossword mind...

Dally
30-01-2005, 11:04 PM
Quite right but it is so annoying when you don't see it straight away. It's quite strange that you can leave a cryptic with 3 or 4 cluers undone and get up the next morning and finish it in seconds so perhaps insight needs the brain to sometimes sign off and let another part of the cortex have a go.

Cicero
31-01-2005, 08:20 AM
So,can we conclude that if we put the question to the mind,that which we can't understand at the time and hold the idea,we may get some insight?
That is apart from the spontaneous insight that the likes of Archimedes experienced.

Dally
31-01-2005, 09:10 AM
No-one knows whether Archimedes idea was spontaneous. He may have have been considering the problem of flotation for some time and then as he relaxed in the bath a solution came to him.

TonyF
31-01-2005, 09:33 AM
To check on your insight, go to www.mindbluff.com .....

Cicero
31-01-2005, 10:05 PM
No-one knows whether Archimedes idea was spontaneous. He may have have been considering the problem of flotation for some time and then as he relaxed in the bath a solution came to him.

Well you can't argue with that!

Did you say where these insights come from?

Terry Porritt
01-02-2005, 08:15 AM
I don't think anyone knows where these flashes of insight come from. Most people will have experienced having an intractable problem of some sort, and not knowing the answer, only for it to appear after a good nights sleep, or even suddenly during the night, when the mind is wandering, an answer comes.

The deep penetrating insight some people have into matters, rather than the sudden inspiration, is humbling.

I find the transition from classical Newtonian physics to discontinuous quantum physics during the early 1900s and 20s, fascinating. The greatest brains of the day engaged in endless debate. The story of Heisenberg and Bohr, and the uncertainty principle makes good reading.

Archimedes is interesting, because originally he was given the task by the King of syracuse to find out whether the kings new golden crown was made of pure gold, or whether the metal had been alloyed with silver. The problem was to find the volume of the crown, Archimedes already knew about density, he could weigh and he could measure regular shapes, even spheres.

When he lowered himself into his brim full tub water flowed over, that was the eureka facto. A method off finding the volume of the crown by displacement of water. He could collect and measure the volume of the displaced water.

The boyancy was an important secondary result, these days it is spoken of as the primary result.

As well as being a mathematician, he was good with screw threads, as with his Archimedean Screw for lifting water, and a spin off, the A(r)C(hi)ME(dean), or ACME screw thread used in machine devices (only kidding, Scouse will think I'm serious).

Dally
01-02-2005, 09:53 AM
As Terry says no-one knows how insight comes about and there are plenty of theories. Steven Pinker in "How the Mind Works", thinks that the insight epiphany is not a master stroke but a tweaking of a earlier attempt and having a the rest from the problem makes it possible to forget the blind alleys. The groundwork must be circulating in the neurons somewhere.

Cicero
01-02-2005, 02:55 PM
It would seem to me that universal knowledge is gained incrementally through these insights.Rather like caxtons press as apposed to the latest heidelberg job.
I used to think all knowledge was held in all minds and it was just a case of discovering it.