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Murray P
26-01-2005, 10:27 PM
Hi folks, a bit of advice needed.

We've got someone interested in renting out a bit of space downstairs. We'll partiton off the area with one roller door included and all their access is to be via that door.

Essentially the space will be used as a pick up and delivery point, goods in by one operator > goods picked up for distribution by several individuals. We wanted to avoid distribution of remote controls or keys, if at all possble.

What I had proposed was that we would install a keypad on the exterior of the building to operate the garage door. These are heavy duty rollers .78mm with, 1/2 horse motors (switched by a simple up/off/down rotary, single phase), driving pully wheels to cast iron gears.

Well, I got the bad news today, the key pad and controller will cost upwards of $800- (exact quote not received yet) without installation and a new switch. This may only be a short term rental, so dollars spent need to be kept within reason. At the mo, it looks like a simple key switch is the only way to do it economically, even though the security isn't as good and it means taking 230V outside at pedestrian level.

Now, I've seen multi-purpose contollers for about $400- on the net (choke!), but I don't really have a clue what I'm looking at or for except I don't need alarm/audio/gigaws, (I jocked with the potential supplier, that I'd rig up my old 386, with an embedded Linux on it) I'd assumed I could grab a key pad and contoller fairly cheaply from an electronics supplier. I realise I'd have to house the key pad securely from both the weather and prying.

What should I look for, how do I rig it up, anyone want to do a perky, am I dreaming?

ninja
26-01-2005, 11:34 PM
http://www.dse.co.nz/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/en/product/L5288

Wouldn't something like that do the job, the auto roller door would have an internal push button which is just an instantaneous switch (forget the word it's supposed to be). Surely this would perform a similar function, without much modification.

Or something like the wireless one here:
http://www.bnd.co.nz/openers/accessories.cfm

Surely that ain't $800 and it can be self installed.

Murray P
26-01-2005, 11:54 PM
Yep, thats the sort of thing. The key pad is a damn site cheaper.

The current switch is a rotary one with a lever and pointer, up = Up, middle position = Off, down = Down. Trouble is, the key pads are just a transmitter, you need to convert the signal into somthing meaningfull for a switch to say go Up or go Down. Then the switch itself has to be able to do this without direct human intervention. The Stop commmands are sent by two simple limit switches, one top and one bottom of the door although, I guess you should have the ability to stop anywhere, manually.

The Garadoor people won't sell the bits and bobs separately unless your buying as spares at a premium. One of the franchise holders is an old business aquantence, so I might be able to twist an arm, but it still seems over the top. He also suggested I talk to the industrial door people, as that is what it is, I get the feeling they want there kit to go on one of their doors, which is natural. Can't see the diff in what will make it stop, go up, go down, personally. Oh, and apparently single phase is more expensive than 3 phase?? I have that available, but more cost to wire where it's needed.

However, I might give Tricky Dickies a go, see what they say re a controller and switch to work with that key pad or maybe get an industrial switch from elsewhere.

godfather
27-01-2005, 12:03 AM
I use one of those keypads on a normal garage door. They have 2 codes, and 2 relays.

One code would = up in your case, and one = down I suppose.
You would need to drive a contactor coul in each direction, and an interposing relay for each would be needed as the output relay in the keypad is unlikely to be 230v rated.

It's a job for a savvy sparky really, but consider the issues with OSH. What safety precautions are in place in the way of sensors for obstructions? Domestic garage doors have them in the way of current sensing if the door hits anything.

And no, I am not joking ...

ninja
27-01-2005, 12:21 AM
And no, I am not joking ...Most domestic garage doors have a little push button (a la doorbell styles) for putting it up and down.

Would it not be plausible to use that feed which only uses a brief "contact" to set the door moving up and down and just put the keypad in place of the touch switch?

That way all the safety features etc are still maintained.

godfather
27-01-2005, 12:25 AM
But Murrays door is not a domestic door opener, it's a gear driven reversible single phase motor arrangement from my interpretation of his post.

Your suggestion is exactly what I use, and it works well in that sense.

Murray P
27-01-2005, 12:47 AM
It's not so much the signal that's the problem, I can do that with a key switch wired directly to the motor as an extension or in addition to the existing switch.

The probelm is controlling what the door does. The key pad or remote switches aren't 230V direct to the switch that sends power one way or tother to the motor. You need a receiver (hard wired or radio) to convert the signal to the appropriate message to the switch, which in turn needs to be smart enough to interpret it and electro-mechanically do it's thing (at the mo, you turn it by manually, as the exterior key switch would work).

As Goddie has said, theres up/down, stop with different ways of sending the stop or up signal in particular to consider, although the emergency stop/up isn't such a factor when the door can't be remotely controlled, ie, it will require a person to be in attendance to operate it. The controllers I've seen, and no doubt the Garadoor one is similar, have several inputs to take such things as beam breakers, load signals and possibly extra limit switches that would stop the door on contact with an object.

These doors are heavy, they don't stop in a hurray with a geared 1/2 horse on them, although they stop within an inch or two when the switch is thrown. Would an overload switch/breaker suffice?

Appreciate the help so far. It's expanded my thoughts on this considerably.

godfather
27-01-2005, 12:59 AM
An overload breaker would not work well as a sensor. A single phase motor is not that sensitive. They draw 7 times the running current on starting, so that is out of the question, it would not start if controlled for load sensing.

Using the keypad (buffered by the relays and contactors) to control the motor, would probably be unacceptable for reaction time to stop the door, its a "press the multi-digit code and its automatically going to happen" type action. Takes several seconds to enter the other code to stop or reverse the door.

I would suggest that you carefully remove the gorse from the pockets and get a real door opener installed .... ?

Murray P
27-01-2005, 01:17 AM
I would suggest that you carefully remove the gorse from the pockets and get a real door opener installed .... ?

Pockets, what are they?

Just had a brill idea. Key switch, or push button for that matter, housed within a a casing with a push button combination access a la, security doors or estate agents key lock depositories. Even better, if I can find an industrial switch that is locked off by a keypad, then I don't have to worry about careless people leaving the switch case open to all and sundry.

Maybe a limit switch on the bottom of the door will do for safety, a sprung strip across the bottom edge to activate it.

Graham L
27-01-2005, 05:12 PM
You're going to need relays to handle the reversing of the motor (3 phase or single phase). Thse will need to be in a box, and then have some form of electronic switching to operate the relays. And a power supply to feed the electronics These things all add up. It starts to become expensive.

I can't see a three phase cable costing more than a single phase +earth for a 1/2 horse motor. I suppose three CBs rather than one might be the difference.

The reason a security keypad and door control costs a lot is that it's not as simple as it seems. ;)

Insurance companies might not regard a home built door opener as being adequate security, too.

Is this the only entrance to the area? A "person" door with a good lock might be the easiest, and cheapest solution. The control on the roller door is meant for use from the inside. ;)

Murray P
27-01-2005, 06:56 PM
You're going to need relays to handle the reversing of the motor (3 phase or single phase). Thse will need to be in a box, and then have some form of electronic switching to operate the relays. And a power supply to feed the electronics These things all add up. It starts to become expensive.

yeah, my cogs are starting to turn in that direction, realisation is dawning.


I can't see a three phase cable costing more than a single phase +earth for a 1/2 horse motor. I suppose three CBs rather than one might be the difference.

The reason a security keypad and door control costs a lot is that it's not as simple as it seems. ;

He said the three phase would be cheaper. I'ts wired single at the mo, but we have three phase supply as well although we don't use it. I'm not going to bother getting a new motor though.


Is this the only entrance to the area? A "person" door with a good lock might be the easiest, and cheapest solution. The control on the roller door is meant for use from the inside. ;)

No, there's a solid core steel lined door within a couple of metres of the roller door. Unfortunately giving a whole heap of people access to this door would mean we would have to include three walls and two more security doors, one to our space (which includes our living space upstairs) and one to the partitioned off area behind the roller door. It would create another entry foyer when we already have one on the side of the building. The roller door takes up all but .5M either side of the bay, concrete columns put paid to popping another door in, even if there was space.

I'm just going to have to get some pockets, then find some gorse to put in them. :groan:

Scouse
27-01-2005, 07:38 PM
Hi Murray. Quote:" We wanted to avoid distribution of remote controls or keys, if at all possble. What I had proposed was that we would install a keypad on the exterior of the building to operate the garage door." In view of the fact that any code would be known by a number of people, and their friends, I would just put a damn big padlock on the door. A lot cheaper and easy to replace the lock and keys. After all, you are renting to one individual. Make him responsible for how many keys he hands out and who to. His "goods" go missing, his responsibility. Just a thought. One of the callers may well be your local cop. :cool:

vickiwjbd
07-03-2007, 07:15 PM
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vickiwjbd
07-03-2007, 07:18 PM
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bob_doe_nz
07-03-2007, 07:45 PM
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