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KarameaDave
02-09-2010, 09:22 PM
Is the universe rotating? Expanding? Shaped like a rugby ball? Or a saddle?
Thoughts?

GameJunkie
02-09-2010, 09:25 PM
it very well could be

or there could be many of them
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse

Terry Porritt
02-09-2010, 09:32 PM
Well, it's like this...the Universe is made up of many worlds.

Each world travels through space on the backs of four elephants that stand on the back of a giant turtle.

http://api.ning.com/files/QHWdSTXuitUkqmPNYPqvKfW9vqPyalix0SGhjNZAxRDRy6DXsO 59lE-w6y2njk7lK-LCg3*zKlIV31m0uOjZxSScdT1v*8fX/GreatATuinsmall.jpg

http://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/discworld/

KarameaDave
02-09-2010, 09:33 PM
If there is more than one, none of them is a universe, of course.
Terrys (you, or Pratchett) not withstanding, naturally. :D

SoniKalien
02-09-2010, 09:37 PM
We are all just tiny specks in a giant Mandelbrot equation..

KarameaDave
02-09-2010, 09:44 PM
Not such a likely hypothesis, fractals are pretty, but mathematically a bit of a
cul-de-sac, no?

Terry Porritt
02-09-2010, 09:46 PM
We are all just tiny specks in a giant Mandelbrot equation..

So that would imply that all the other myriad specks out there are just replicas of ourselves, repeated over and over ?

SoniKalien
02-09-2010, 09:47 PM
Look at it this way - mankind hasn't found the smallest particle nor the biggest entity yet, so who knows? :p

KarameaDave
02-09-2010, 09:48 PM
But a moment ago, you did!?

SoniKalien
02-09-2010, 09:50 PM
did I ?

KarameaDave
02-09-2010, 09:53 PM
Yes, this looks a lot like a statement to me! :D


We are all just tiny specks in a giant Mandelbrot equation..

SoniKalien
02-09-2010, 10:12 PM
OK, how's this for a statement then:

I have no idea what I'm talking about!

:p

zqwerty
02-09-2010, 10:13 PM
The fine-structure constant and the nature of the universe

http://www.economist.com/node/16930866?story_id=16930866&fsrc=nwl

R2x1
02-09-2010, 10:34 PM
Not such a likely hypothesis, fractals are pretty, but mathematically a bit of a
cul-de-sac, no?
Yes, but an endless cul-de-sac, oui?

And for Terry (s) Which came first, the Elephants or the Turtle, relatively speaking?

KarameaDave
02-09-2010, 10:37 PM
Endless cul-de-sac? I'm sure there are several of these in Christchurch.
But, logically if one were endless, there could be no other?

johcar
02-09-2010, 10:39 PM
Yes, but an endless cul-de-sac, oui?

And for Terry (s) Which came first, the Elephants or the Turtle, relatively speaking?

The not related, just good friends....

But if you're referring to the antecedence relative to each other, logic would dictate that the Turtle (the Great A'Tuin) must have been there first, or else the elephants would have had nowhere to stand...

R2x1
02-09-2010, 10:40 PM
Ever listened to electoral speeches, they seem endless, and make you hope there is no other. ;)

R2x1
02-09-2010, 10:41 PM
The not related, just good friends....

But if you're referring to the antecedence relative to each other, logic would dictate that the Turtle (the Great A'Tuin) must have been there first, or else the elephants would have had nowhere to stand...
So the egg came before the elephant?

johcar
02-09-2010, 10:42 PM
And probably before the turtle

R2x1
02-09-2010, 10:50 PM
Well, before there was an egg, some turtle had to get laid.

KarameaDave
02-09-2010, 11:30 PM
Turtlaid? I think I prefer Lemonade.
(But beer is better)

R2x1
03-09-2010, 12:04 AM
Lets hear it for the Danish Elephant beer!
More beer is better.

Godfree
03-09-2010, 12:06 AM
If there is "anybody out there" how would we know , have you been visited by aliens???what proof have we that "out there" has ever come here???

R2x1
03-09-2010, 12:10 AM
Well, when it was in here, it wasn't out there, so the cat had to go in a Schindler's lift.
That was pretty far out.

Whenu
03-09-2010, 09:57 AM
Substitute "Schindler's " for Schodinger and you would be closer unless the cat is stuck in the lift

SurferJoe46
03-09-2010, 04:19 PM
So that would imply that all the other myriad specks out there are just replicas of ourselves, repeated over and over ?

The Mirror, Mirror On The Wall Theory?


Is the universe rotating? Expanding? Shaped like a rugby ball? Or a saddle?
Thoughts?

It's closed. I just know.


If there is "anybody out there" how would we know , have you been visited by aliens???what proof have we that "out there" has ever come here???

How far 'out there' are you willing to go?

Like I said I believe that the universe is closed. I see order in it everywhere so why not in it's size and dimensions? An ever-expanding universe would logically be out of control and that's counter to my deepest thoughts.

I'll be delivering lectures here on the first and third Thursdays in each month.

Be here or be somewhere else - but don't go too far out.

You have to first find where 'here' is though.

SoniKalien
03-09-2010, 04:31 PM
If the universe is closed, then what's outside it?

johcar
03-09-2010, 04:40 PM
A queue waiting to get in?

:pf1mobmini:

KarameaDave
03-09-2010, 06:36 PM
The universal immigration department has a quota, you see.

R2x1
03-09-2010, 06:42 PM
Outside is alright to visit, but you wouldn't want to live there.

SurferJoe46
03-09-2010, 06:54 PM
If the universe is closed, then what's outside it?

Sliced bread - part of the String Theory.

Roscoe
03-09-2010, 07:05 PM
I'm continually amazed at the depth of the comments on this forum.

You can tell that the majority who have responded to this nonsensical thread have obviously thought about the subject for at least five seconds before they replied.

That is why I love being part of this forum. It makes my absurd utterings sound so very wise.:D

KarameaDave
03-09-2010, 07:11 PM
:p

zqwerty
03-09-2010, 07:18 PM
Boundless but not infinite - Einstein

Pointless but not completely meaningless - anon

Like a very large work of art - anon

gary67
03-09-2010, 08:03 PM
Real art or that crap that some people who think they are artists put out? The world is not a turtle or even an elephant, it's a giant cream egg hard on the outside, soft and creamy on the inside and the sky tower is a disguised Moro bar

Godfree
03-09-2010, 09:05 PM
Surferjoe , surely the only thing that is closed , is our minds.
If you can't see beyond a certain size or point , is that a limitation in the universe, or your brain. ?
For the universe to have a shape , or size , that is a finite universe.
I can't find a single rational explanation for how the universe could be finite.
Surely time and space are infinite!!!
and only our comprehension is finite.

PPp
03-09-2010, 11:28 PM
Just to put things into perspective:
http://www.flixxy.com/hubble-ultra-deep-field-3d.htm

PPp
03-09-2010, 11:50 PM
Sorry for the reality check, (I could swear I saw some Elephant legs at the further reaches!)

SurferJoe46
04-09-2010, 04:03 AM
Surferjoe , surely the only thing that is closed , is our minds.
If you can't see beyond a certain size or point , is that a limitation in the universe, or your brain. ?
For the universe to have a shape , or size , that is a finite universe.
I can't find a single rational explanation for how the universe could be finite.
Surely time and space are infinite!!!
and only our comprehension is finite.

I don't agree. (Of course not!)

IF you allow for a defined dimension to the universe (notice I didn't say: "known universe"?), then the existence of black holes balance the size of the universe by allowing travel between them as a sorta yin/yang effect, although I don't wholly subscribe to that as a philosophy, but use it here to indicate the necessary balance to keep the universes 'inflated' if you will.

I see it sorta as two balloons (just for this example to help simplify the vast multiplicity of other balloon-universes) - that can swap matter and/or energy that they contain by allowing (somewhat impeded) travel betwixt them both, but if one receives a mass that is more than the other, they must re-balance to equal contents/mass/values or whatever you want to understand.

This explains the need for and existence of BLACK HOLES, which are obviously evident and prevalent in our universe.

Thereby, time is indeed infinite as you can follow time via travels through and to different universes. I don't have a problem with the fact that time is indeed infinite, and that should satisfy your statement in part at least.

Space isn't infinite however (by it's being measurable) and therefor has a basic unit of quantification. It's just that there's so much of it (space) and allowing for the parallel universes (Sliced Bread Theory, tied to the String Theory) that we are aghast at the vastness of it and cannot wrap our heads around that concept.

Although it smacks of ulterior motives, we can even start our fundamental measurement of the universe from OUR ground-zero: EARTH if you like.

F'rinstance::: I proffer the 'white noise' that is still bouncing around/in this universe from early-to-current radio/energy emissions from radio/TV/radar, etc, that can be measured and heard through audio devices as 'sizzle' or 'hash', and of course can also be seen when demodulated as the 'visual and aural noise' between broadcast channels on TVs.

If there was no limit to the universe, (ie: boundaries) for the echo-effect and resultant bounce-back of these radiant forms of energy, then they would be seriously less or even non-existent, unlike what we have now and can see/hear and decipher.

Think of it this way: you need some sort of wall or enclosure to create an echo in a canyon or large empty building; I see the universe as such but on a much grander scale.

Godfree
05-09-2010, 10:42 PM
Surferjoe , we can certainly get confused by the array of definitions and words used to describe what is , Multiple universes , surely this is a contradiction in terms , and yes we earthlings tend to see the Universe from our perspective. To start with the earth was the "center of the universe"
when this was proved wrong the "big bang is the center of the universe"
How can there be a center , when there are no sides from which to measure???

Ppd , it's not good enough just to send us to see the pics for ourselves , you have to tell us what it means , if you were to leave it up to our limited understanding , we could conclude we see god in the pics,
That we can't yet see forever therefore forever doesn't exist, etc
So , what do the hubble deep field photo's mean to you???
Olber thinks because we could see blackness in the night sky,
the universe must be finite , hubble seems to disagree???

Billy T
05-09-2010, 11:37 PM
F'rinstance::: I proffer the 'white noise' that is still bouncing around/in this universe from early-to-current radio/energy emissions from radio/TV/radar, etc, that can be measured and heard through audio devices as 'sizzle' or 'hash', and of course can also be seen when demodulated as the 'visual and aural noise' between broadcast channels on TVs.

If there was no limit to the universe, (ie: boundaries) for the echo-effect and resultant bounce-back of these radiant forms of energy, then they would be seriously less or even non-existent, unlike what we have now and can see/hear and decipher.

Think of it this way: you need some sort of wall or enclosure to create an echo in a canyon or large empty building; I see the universe as such but on a much grander scale.

Sorry to kill that theory for you Joe, but the only signals you can 'demodulate' are those on a carrier wave and the moon is about as far as they can reliably bounce back from unless you have a rather large parabolic antenna.

The visible noise (snow) and sound hiss between channels on a TV is simply random cosmic noise coupled with the internal noise from the amplifying devices in the equipment itself. Put a TV in a shielded room and turn it on and you will see the same snow on the screen. Similarly, turn on a radio in the same room and you will hear hash from the movement of electrons within the amplifying and tuning circuits.

You see, when there is no signal input, all receiving equipment cranks itself up to full gain to see if it can find anything, and that's what creates the on-screen or audio noise.

However, just supposing there was a boundary to the Universe, then given that radio waves travel at the speed of light, the 'boundary' would have to be no more than 40 light years away if you wanted to 'hear' noise from a 1930 broadcast radio signal (40 years out and 40 years to get back). To 'see' noise from a 1980 TV broadcast it would have to be no more than 15 light years away. You talk about current signals being reflected from the boundary?? Honey you just shrunk the universe to squat!

We can see many times further than that with optical telescopes and further again with radio telescopes.

I think the big problem is that man cannot comprehend infinity, any more than he can accept the brevity and finality of his own death. Religion is a triumph of fantasy over reality, and a monument to man's towering ego.

That which man can neither comprehend nor explain, he deifies.


Personally I believe that the turtle came first, in fact he had to, because he moves so slowly, and if the elephants had been there first, they'd have fallen off the edge of the universe as soon as they arrived because they'd have found nothing to stand on.

This theory presumes that you believe in flying elephants of course.

Cheers

Billy 8-{) :illogical

SoniKalien
06-09-2010, 12:18 AM
I think the big problem is that man cannot comprehend infinity, any more than he can accept the brevity and finality of his own death. Religion is a triumph of fantasy over reality, and a monument to man's towering ego.

Damn straight :punk

R2x1
06-09-2010, 12:26 AM
Infinity is amazingly big, unbelievably, it is even bigger than the queue on the phones at the infernal revenue department of extractions.
The far parts of it may be where Swiss Post (long may they writhe in torment) send parcels, just because they can.

PPp
06-09-2010, 12:35 AM
I think the Universe is so unimaginable gigantic that or brains cannot comprehend the enormous scale involved, and new discoveries like the vid shows keep on showing us there is probably even more scale than current science could imagine. Light travels at 299792.458 km /s now multiply that by 13000000000 years, each one with 31 556 926 seconds and thats only in one direction. Hubble can see an equal distance in the opposite direction as well.

Another thing to take into consideration is the Red Shift. The further away galaxies are from us the more they seem to be moving away. When you get way out, they approach the speed of light and this effects the light we receive from them and spectrometers show their light shifts more towards the red end of the spectrum. Mind you the light we receive from them is 13 billion year old so they have had plenty of time to continue to speed up to beyond the speed of light, so would be no longer visible to us in real time. So who knows whats out there?

My point is you need the observations,data, evidence to be able to make a conclusion and as far as the Universe is concerned we don't have much evidence except its big. All we have is theory and philosophy. Face it, some things are just to big to make any sense of at the moment, let alone measure. Maybe in another 10,000 years when we're grown up(if we survive that long) Thats my perspective.

Agent_24
06-09-2010, 01:48 AM
Well, it's like this...the Universe is made up of many worlds.

Each world travels through space on the backs of four elephants that stand on the back of a giant turtle.

http://api.ning.com/files/QHWdSTXuitUkqmPNYPqvKfW9vqPyalix0SGhjNZAxRDRy6DXsO 59lE-w6y2njk7lK-LCg3*zKlIV31m0uOjZxSScdT1v*8fX/GreatATuinsmall.jpg

http://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/discworld/

There are some people who have a legend that the whole universe is carried in a leather bag by an old man.

They're right, too.

Other people say: hold on, if he's carrying the entire universe in a sack, right, that means he's carrying himself and the sack inside the sack, because the universe contains everything. Including him. And the sack, of course. Which contains him and the sack already. As it were.

To which the reply is: well?

gary67
06-09-2010, 07:47 AM
A well is a hole in the ground with either oil, gas or water at the bottom unless of course it is a dried well in which case it will have just dirt or maybe rocks at the bottom. Then again it could have the entire universe at the bottom of the well

pctek
06-09-2010, 08:42 AM
Each world travels through space on the backs of four elephants that stand on the back of a giant turtle.



http://www.terrypratchettbooks.com/discworld/

You know he has Alzheimers? Had to write his last book with Dragon naturally Speaking and it will be the last.........

SurferJoe46
06-09-2010, 08:46 AM
A well is a hole in the ground with either oil, gas or water at the bottom unless of course it is a dried well in which case it will have just dirt or maybe rocks at the bottom. Then again it could have the entire universe at the bottom of the well

There are wells in New Jersey with people in them.

Wasn't there an old movie about someone who dug a well and there were people living deep in it and they established a form of communication with a woman - and the most important line in the movie was something like this: "We call it chicken".

Godfree
06-09-2010, 12:50 PM
Well , I'm impressed , Billy T , very sensible , logic is a very powerful tool in a sharp mind. With a little bit of real knowledge on the subject.
Ppd , you made far more interesting reading by putting it in your own words,
some of us are on dial-up and hate having to go and load another page.
The red shift , I have a theory that the red shift is caused by gravity not things moving away. Our sun is supposed to be red shifted???

johcar
06-09-2010, 12:57 PM
You know he has Alzheimers? Had to write his last book with Dragon naturally Speaking and it will be the last.........

Yes, a very sad end to a very talented writer... :(

SoniKalien
06-09-2010, 03:28 PM
Red shift because red has a higher frequency than blue so therefore travel faster...

Billy T
06-09-2010, 04:27 PM
Red shift because red has a higher frequency than blue so therefore travel faster...


Hmmm, got our education off the back of a cornflake packet did we?

The frequency of red light is lower than that of blue, though we generally measure them in terms of wavelength not frequencies.

However, all light travels at the same speed regardless of frequency. Light itself is just another sector of the electromagnetic spectrum, which starts at ELF (extra low frequency, and goes through ELF, SLF, ULF, VLF LF, MF, HF, VHF, UHF, SHF, EHF before it disappears into the exotic world of FIR, MIR, NUV, EUV, SX, HX, & Y.

They all travel at the same speed, which is of course the speed of light, none slower, none faster.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

johcar
06-09-2010, 04:35 PM
Do you feel the burn, SoniKalien? :D

Must be that red light....

:pf1mobmini:

Billy T
06-09-2010, 05:00 PM
I have a theory that the red shift is caused by gravity not things moving away. Our sun is supposed to be red shifted???

Red shift is caused by the same phenomenon as that which causes a train whistle to sound higher as it approaches you then lower as it moves away. The same effect occurs when standing next to a motorway or listening to F1 cars flash past on a racetrack and you can hear it clearly on TV programs.

The frequency of the sound does not change but you get that aural impression of an increase as it approaches, apparently compressing the wavelength, then as it departs the frequency appears to drop as the delay in arrival at your ears appears to extend the wavelength.

Because the universe is expanding, red shift lets astronomers determine the rate if expansion my measuring the wavelength of the light reaching us. i.e Red Shift. I wasn't aware of any suggestion that our sun is red shifted but unless our orbit is precisely circular about the sun, at times it will be.

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

Agent_24
06-09-2010, 05:50 PM
There seem to be 3 types of Redshift: Doppler, Cosmological and Gravitational

http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~jh8h/glossary/redshift.htm

SoniKalien
06-09-2010, 06:01 PM
Hmmm, got our education off the back of a cornflake packet did we?


Nah, by reading Batman comics... :annoyed:

Billy T
06-09-2010, 06:13 PM
There seem to be 3 types of Redshift: Doppler, Cosmological and Gravitational

http://www.astro.virginia.edu/~jh8h/glossary/redshift.htmFundamentally though, they are all manifestations of the same observational effect. i.e. they cause an apparent shift in frequency.

Mmmm...I would have thought that Doppler covered the basic principle and that cosmological would fit that nicely. Not being a physicist, I have problems with gravitational though, because "shift in the frequency of a photon to lower energy as it climbs out of a gravitational field" sounds like it slows down (or appears to slow down as measured by red-shift), which is again Doppler effect.

Doppler is fundamentally a change in the apparent frequency of a wave-based phenomenon (typically electromagnetic, light or sound) when its position is changing in relation to the observer.

I'm afraid my aging brain is too small and too slow to dice and slice that into digestible lumps...:waughh:

Cheers

Billy 8-{)

Um.. Yes, I know light is electromagnetic!

R2x1
06-09-2010, 09:56 PM
A well is a hole in the ground with either oil, gas or water at the bottom unless of course it is a dried well in which case it will have just dirt or maybe rocks at the bottom. Then again it could have the entire universe at the bottom of the well
Sorry, I thought a cave dweller would have noticed the universe is at the side of the well. Alternate universes are on the other side(s).
Under the universe at the bottom of the well theory, multiple universes would necessitate multiple bottoms; the paperwork for that would be endless.

Godfree
06-09-2010, 10:20 PM
I was offering gravity as an alternative cause of the red shift , thus challenging the idea that the universe is expanding.
I certainly don't get this curved space time ,, or that the rate of expansion is accelerating , most of this is still theory .
I get the feeling some of these theories will be replaced with reality.

gary67
06-09-2010, 10:20 PM
Not if it made use of a finite unknown number of paperless functions. Paper is so last year. To gain the most use from your well don't use paper to soak up whatever, use a paperless vacuum, sucking thing. I hear that since there are no more street corners in Chch that wells have become much sought after real estate

Godfree
08-09-2010, 07:49 AM
Not if it made use of a finite unknown number of paperless functions. Paper is so last year. To gain the most use from your well don't use paper to soak up whatever, use a paperless vacuum, sucking thing. I hear that since there are no more street corners in Chch that wells have become much sought after real estate
The street hookers will be struggling , Manchester street in the center of town has been a no go zone since the quake , and that was their most worked spot,,some were lucky and have had power and water right through.
Like me , the first thing I did when I got up was switch the light on, and although it was slow for a couple of hours the water stayed going.